Intriguing Perspective on Bobby Twist's Paternity

[fernly]

OK, I'll bite once more! 
This is an interesting topic; - why Jack kept these two of his 3 lives so separate. It deserves more time and thought than I have at present.  It could well have to do with the reasons I outlined in the previous post, - that Jack expected and planned to leave soon, and therefore did not work on establishing links between the Newsomes (including Bobby) and the Twists. In fact, that he discouraged it so that his parents would not feel the loss of their grandson keenly after Jack had moved in with Ennis and the boy would be a Newsome who'd likely never be allowed contact with the Twists. It could also have to do with Jack's father - if he thought Jack was too goddamn special, what wouldn't he think of the Newsomes, including Bobby and Lureen? And the more jack and Lureen prospered down in Texas, the more Jack may have felt the distance  to the humble nature of the Twist ranch - perhaps he'd rather not Lureen go up there and see it?

I've wondered about Jack's separate lives, too. Maybe this is partly a case of Story/Film again. Considering the abuse Jack tells about in the story that he suffered at the hands of his father at the age of 3 or 4, it's not surprising that Jack would keep Bobby completely away from John Twist. But that doesn't explain, either in the story or the film, keeping Bobby and his grandmother apart.
From what I've read in other books, it was pretty common that ranch folk, strapped for cash and with no help on the place like the Twists, wouldn't travel.
Far as travel in the other direction though, your point about Jack not wanting Lureen and his son to see his home place makes sense. I've wondered what Jack would have told them about where and how he grew up. I wouldn't think very much.

[opinionista]

Thanks everyone for the interesting input, I knew I'd get some great info!    The reason the OP on IMDB had a compelling argument was that he noted that specific dates were mentioned, either in PA annoucements or painted signs, that basically stamped the dates on the scenes, and therefore made it biologically impossible for Jack to be Bobby's dad.   I thought I noticed the same things on prior viewings.    So, that posters argument was simple:  either this was intentional, and Jack was very subtlely implied to not be the sperm-donor, or else, it had to be a mistake.

So let's debate that last question:   first of all, was it a mistake?  I guess we all would hate to think there are mistakes in an otherwise perfect movie, but we all are well aware of disappearing logs on stumps and the magic levitating peanut jars, so, yeah, it happens.   But, why make a point of making sure these dates are announced in the first place, if it was all a mistake.   It just seems so un-Ang-like for Ang, who we all know is meticulous, to take the trouble of making sure the dates are included in these noted scenes, and have them be wrong chronologically.    Was he secretly putting in a little puzzler, to be discovered by only the true Brokie?   These dates, as I understand, were not a conflict in the short story, so it was purely an issue of the movie.


And, let's just say, for argument, that Jack was NOT the father of Bobby.   Some of you wonder why in the world this would be added to the plot line at all, when it was not developed in any way, and it could have made a bigger impact on the whole theme of the movie?    Well, again, the points are subtle: as noted by me already, Jack seems more disconnected to his son than Ennis to his daughters.    A poster above made some excellent points about why that might be, but Jack seemed just so much more available and willing to leave his family, namely his son, for Ennis, and I'd like to think that he would be just as loyal to his son as he was to Ennis.   

Another small but little-discussed detail:    did it occur to you that Jack's parents had NEVER met their only grandson?   Jack always visited Lightning Flat alone, and even in the book, Lureen specifically says she never met her in-laws.   I can imagine that the distance and their limited means might make travel to Texas impossible, but not a mention by them, not even a picture of their grandson in their house (although, no picture of Jack either).   

So, mistake, or very sly insertion by our famed Director, to add this other element of Jack's miserable life, that he was stuck in a marriage of convenience and appearances only, and his son was not even his son?   Just makes it all the more sad, that Jack then died so bitterly, sadly ......  alone.      He lost Ennis, his parents were distant, his wife didn't give a damn, his in-laws hated him, and he had no kids, no legacy to continue.     Makes it all the more profound of what Ennis meant to him.

It could have been a mistake made by the props department. Maybe they wrote september 1967 in the post card when they shouldn't. It's not necessarily Ang Lee's mistake.

Also, filmmaking is hectic, and sometimes there's more than one person making decisions. Mistakes are usually noticed during the film editing. If there's money and time, they fix it. If not, they leave it hoping they would pass unnoticed. In fact, there's a goof in the movie that could've been fixed with photoshop or something. It is when Ennis is telling Alma that he's going fishing with Jack for two days, and little Alma Jr. runs in asking Ennis to bring her a big fish. He lifts her and gaves her to Alma, at that moment the wire of the girl's microphone is shown. If they didn't fix that it's probably because there was no budget or time to do it. So, I'm thinking that maybe they didn't notice the error with the date line regarding Bobby's age until the editing, then had no money to fix it. Brokeback was a low budget movie, at least for Hollywood's standards.

[ednbarby]

I vote that the time discrepancy was unintentional.  I think Jack was somewhat disconnected from Bobby because:

a) He never wanted kids in the first plance
b) He'd had no (decent) father figure whatsoever growing up (really, he'd had an anti-father figure, if you ask me), so he had no basis on which to build such a relationship with his own son - yes, Ennis was in the same boat and yet did better with his daughters, but Ennis was the opposite of Jack in this way, just as he was in most others - he wanted to have kids and treat them the way he never got to be treated
c) As others have said, he'd always been ready/prepared to leave his life with Lureen to be with Ennis at a moment's notice, so perhaps he purposely didn't bond with his son.

[serious crayons]

b) He'd had no (decent) father figure whatsoever growing up (really, he'd had an anti-father figure, if you ask me), so he had no basis on which to build such a relationship with his own son - yes, Ennis was in the same boat and yet did better with his daughters, but Ennis was the opposite of Jack in this way, just as he was in most others - he wanted to have kids and treat them the way he never got to be treated

Also, I think it makes a difference that Ennis has daughters. I think (or at least conventional wisdom would hold) that men who had bad relationships with their own fathers are more likely to have bad relationships with sons than with daughters. Not that Jack's relationship with Bobby was bad, mind you. Just that Ennis would be less likely to project his childhood troubles onto the next generation.

[opinionista]

I vote that the time discrepancy was unintentional.  I think Jack was somewhat disconnected from Bobby because:

a) He never wanted kids in the first plance
b) He'd had no (decent) father figure whatsoever growing up (really, he'd had an anti-father figure, if you ask me), so he had no basis on which to build such a relationship with his own son - yes, Ennis was in the same boat and yet did better with his daughters, but Ennis was the opposite of Jack in this way, just as he was in most others - he wanted to have kids and treat them the way he never got to be treated
c) As others have said, he'd always been ready/prepared to leave his life with Lureen to be with Ennis at a moment's notice, so perhaps he purposely didn't bond with his son.

I don't think Jack was disconnected from Bobby. He loved him very much, despite the fact that he felt out of place within Lureen's family. Jack was very much of a dreamer. He was the sort of person who had a solution for everything. When they were at Brokeback and there was no food, he came up with the idea of killing a sheep. Since Ennis refused, then it was an elk. When they meet four years later, and realized that Brokeback got them good, he comes up with the idea of the little cow and calf operation so they could be together and not worry about money. So, I guess he did the same thing regarding Bobby. I don't think he was willing to just leave his son and forget about him. I'm sure he would come up with a something to be with Ennis, and stay in Bobby's life.

[ednbarby]

I don't think Jack was disconnected from Bobby. He loved him very much, despite the fact that he felt out of place within Lureen's family. Jack was very much of a dreamer. He was the sort of person who had a solution for everything. When they were at Brokeback and there was no food, he came up with the idea of killing a sheep. Since Ennis refused, then it was an elk. When they meet four years later, and realized that Brokeback got them good, he comes up with the idea of the little cow and calf operation so they could be together and not worry about money. So, I guess he did the same thing regarding Bobby. I don't think he was willing to just leave his son and forget about him. I'm sure he would come up with a something to be with Ennis, and stay in Bobby's life.

You make a good point.  Jack's willingness to leave Lureen (and Bobby) shows his devotion to Ennis and fearlessness where making a life with him is concerned much more than it shows any kind of disconnection from Bobby.  Ennis was not any more connected to his daughters, really.  Now that I think about it, while of course he loved them dearly and was as good a dad as anyone, I think he tended to use them as excuses to keep from dealing with the reality of his longing for Jack, just as he used his jobs as excuses to keep from dealing with anyone who needed more from him than a cameo appearance once in a while.

[whiteoutofthemoon]

You make a good point.  Jack's willingness to leave Lureen (and Bobby) shows his devotion to Ennis and fearlessness where making a life with him is concerned much more than it shows any kind of disconnection from Bobby.  Ennis was not any more connected to his daughters, really.  Now that I think about it, while of course he loved them dearly and was as good a dad as anyone, I think he tended to use them as excuses to keep from dealing with the reality of his longing for Jack, just as he used his jobs as excuses to keep from dealing with anyone who needed more from him than a cameo appearance once in a while.

I think symbolically, though, the film seems to represent that Jack was more distant from Bobby than Ennis was to his daughters.  The only time you see Jack and Bobby (coincedental shout-out to the Kennedys) interacting is in that tractor scene.  But otherwise, in the nursing scene (two boxes of formula), you see Jack in the doorway while Lureen and her parents coo over the baby; and in the TG scene, Bobby is curiously seated next to his mom, with an empty table space between Jack and Bobby.   

I'm still torn as what to believe in regards to this thing about Bobby's paternity, but I was struck from the beginning at how Jack did not seem to display (at least as what was portrayed in the movie) any significant amount of fatherhood tendencies. 

[opinionista]

I think symbolically, though, the film seems to represent that Jack was more distant from Bobby than Ennis was to his daughters.  The only time you see Jack and Bobby (coincedental shout-out to the Kennedys) interacting is in that tractor scene.  But otherwise, in the nursing scene (two boxes of formula), you see Jack in the doorway while Lureen and her parents coo over the baby; and in the TG scene, Bobby is curiously seated next to his mom, with an empty table space between Jack and Bobby. 

I'm still torn as what to believe in regards to this thing about Bobby's paternity, but I was struck from the beginning at how Jack did not seem to display (at least as what was portrayed in the movie) any significant amount of fatherhood tendencies. 

That's true, Jack and Bobby aren't shown together that much in the movie. However, it does show that Jack was pretty much involved in Bobby's education. At the "where's my blue parka?" scene Jack gets mad at Lureen for forgetting to call Bobby's school to request a tutor. He says the teacher won't speak with him because he has been calling a lot. So my guess is that the whole scene means that Jack did care about his son, and was involved in his life to some extent, perhaps more than Lureen.

As for the paternity thing, I just don't agree with that guy from IMDB. The whole idea of Bobby not being Jack's son seems competely off topic and does not provide anything important to the plot. That guy's analysis is unconvincing, at least to me. I tried to discuss it with him but he got aggresive because I didn't agree with him. I think the date thing is just a goof.

[twistedude]

Who's Bobby? I haven't read this thread.
"This is my house, this is my child, and you are my guest. So sit down, you old sonofabirch, befrore I kick your ignaorant ass into next week.""

It's a goof.  There are dozens in the movie.

You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last.
But whatever you wish to keep, you better grab it fast.
Yonder stands your orphan with his gun,
Crying like a fire in the sun.
Look out the saints are comin' through
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.

[Bucky]

It seems to me that Jack met Lureen sometime in August or September of 1964.  I know Jack went to see Joe Aguirre about a job on Brokeback Mountain in the spring of 1964 and also asked Aguirre if Ennis Del Mar had been around.  So Jack figured that Ennis hadn't been around and left on his rodeoing adventures.  Sometime he tried to pick up the rodeo clown in a saloon.  Then when we see Jack again he watches Lureen do her barrell racing contest which I am of the opinion was the same year that he tried to pick up the rodeo clown.  I remember in the motel scene he told Ennis that he made $2,000 dollars that year but before that he liked to starve to death.  Now I am still of the opinion that is in the late summer of 1964 when he met Lureen Newsome more than likely September of 1964.  However if he did that then his baby would have been in about June or July of 1965 and older than eight months in 1967.  Well the movie is unclear about it so I will just assume that he met Lureen sometime in 1965 and who knows maybe Jack didn't get Lureen pregnant after all in their first sexual encounter. 

Actually folks it is all speculation anyway because the movie is not really clear about the dates of Jack and Lureen's first sexual encounter.  All we know for sure is that he did meet Lureen Newsome and that she did get pregnant either before or after they married and his son was eight months old at the time of his first reunion with Ennis since they worked together on Brokeback Mountain.