Got What They Deserved?

[dly64]

It's also one of the things that made this a good movie in that by portraying them as regular people--regular human beings--it avoided cliche (which is always good in fiction) and also helped make a political statement. But the movie, IMO, transcended political statements. The way it was written and filmed allowed it to take on more universal, human qualities. While it may have been society that discriminated against these two lovers, it was ultimately their inability and unwillingness to counter that society that was the deeper tragedy IMO.

Although we might wish that society made whoever we are more accepted and embraced, what other people do and don't do (individually and in a group) is outside our control. What is far harder to do is to change ourselves to deal with outer realities. Jack and Ennis, in particular, did not do that. To me, that was the greater tragedy and Ennis paid the price for it.

I think what you say has a lot of merit. I am going to quote some of Robert Ebert's review because I think it pertains to this issue (for those who are critic haters, don't kill me):

Ennis tells Jack about something he saw as a boy. "There were two old guys shacked up together. They were the joke of the town, even though they were pretty tough old birds." One day they were found beaten to death. Ennis says: "My dad, he made sure me and my brother saw it. For all I know, he did it."

This childhood memory is always there, the ghost in the room, in Ang Lee's "Brokeback Mountain." When he was taught by his father to hate homosexuals, Ennis was taught to hate his own feelings. Years after he first makes love with Jack on a Wyoming mountainside, after his marriage has failed, after his world has compressed to a mobile home, the laundromat, the TV, he still feels the same pain: "Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this -- I'm nothing, I'm nobody."

But it's not because of Jack. It's because Ennis and Jack love each other and can find no way to deal with that.

..... The movie wisely never steps back to look at the larger picture, or deliver the "message." It is specifically the story of these men, this love. It stays in closeup. That's how Jack and Ennis see it. "You know I ain't queer," Ennis tells Jack after their first night together. "Me, neither," says Jack.

Therein lies the tragedy. Ennis could not even allow himself to acknowledge he was in love with a man. To say Ennis was a "jerk" is simplistic. IMO, a person is shaped from what s/he knows ... that is his/ her "normal". Anything outside of that realm is overwelming, frightening. For Ennis, he was so fearful of his own feelings, he could hardly open his mouth to speak. And yet, ironically, he loved Jack so much that he could not share his love with anyone else (Alma, Cassie).

[serious crayons]

Well, I think Ennis does acknowledge that he loves Jack, but otherwise I agree with you. And it's interesting, now that you mention it, that he blames Jack for his being nothin and nobody, when obviously it's society's fault, not Jack's. I always took that as just a sort of lashing-out behavior that he doesn't really mean -- like the punch when they leave the mountain. But at a certain level, he does mean it. Not that he really resents Jack for this, but he does accept society's dictates so deeply that he doesn't realize society should be held to blame.

[dly64]

Well, I think Ennis does acknowledge that he loves Jack, but otherwise I agree with you. And it's interesting, now that you mention it, that he blames Jack for his being nothin and nobody, when obviously it's society's fault, not Jack's. I always took that as just a sort of lashing-out behavior that he doesn't really mean -- like the punch when they leave the mountain. But at a certain level, he does mean it. Not that he really resents Jack for this, but he does accept society's dictates so deeply that he doesn't realize society should be held to blame.

IMO, when Ennis says, "It's because of you that I'm like this ...," I see Ennis as "blaming" Jack that he is in love with a man. Even at the end of their relationship, Ennis still does not see himself as gay. He is so homophobic ... he can't begin to understand what he really feels. In other words, he cannot own his feelings. I agree that he acknowledges he loves Jack. However, I don't think he understands the depth of his love until Jack has died. By then, it is too late.

[serious crayons]

IMO, when Ennis says, "It's because of you that I'm like this ...," I see Ennis as "blaming" Jack that he is in love with a man. Even at the end of their relationship, Ennis still does not see himself as gay. He is so homophobic ... he can't begin to understand what he really feels. In other words, he cannot own his feelings. I agree that he acknowledges he loves Jack. However, I don't think he understands the depth of his love until Jack has died. By then, it is too late.

I'm sorry, dly, but I have to respectfully disagree with every sentence in your post. But I realize this is probably THE big divide among Brokies (bigger even than the sorry/s'alright!) -- when, if ever, does Ennis realize he's gay; when, if ever, does Ennis realize how much he loves Jack; what exactly is it that he comes to understand at the end? Sounds like I am on the opposite side from you on all of these issues. But from what I gather, there are plenty of people on both sides.

[dly64]

I'm sorry, dly, but I have to respectfully disagree with every sentence in your post. But I realize this is probably THE big divide among Brokies (bigger even than the sorry/s'alright!) -- when, if ever, does Ennis realize he's gay; when, if ever, does Ennis realize how much he loves Jack; what exactly is it that he comes to understand at the end? Sounds like I am on the opposite side from you on all of these issues. But from what I gather, there are plenty of people on both sides.

I can understand where you are coming from. But you are right ... we are on opposite sides. I see Ennis as being completely cut off from his emotions. He was taught to hate homosexuals ... in essense to hate himself. When Ennis comes up behind Jack in the flashback, the book and screenplay say:

"Later that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held."

IMO, Ennis could not face the reality that his one-in-a-lifetime love was a man until it was too late. When Ennis is at the Twist's and Jacks dick father (excuse my editorializing) talked about Jack saying "Ennis DelMar  ... I'm goin' bring him up here one of these days ....." Ennis' expression is one of what might have been.

.... thus, begins the debate.

[Jeff Wrangler]

It's always bothered me that Ennis, in lashing out, blames Jack for life choices that he himself has made. Just as a kind of an aside-FYI, in the 2004 screenplay Ennis seems to be really blaming Jack:

Jack: I wish I knew how to quit you.

Ennis: Why don't you?! Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you--it's you, don't you see? It's because of you I'm like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin' like a dog. And I don't understand it, and I never wanted it, I don't want it. i just don't want it.

I'm glad somebody had the sense to change that. The scene as we know it in the film is much better.

[ednbarby]

Good call, Jeff.

I see Ennis' saying "It's 'cause o' you I'm like this" as saying, really, "It's because of you that I have to face (and accept and love) what I really am.  And I can't do that."

[serious crayons]

Ennis: Why don't you?! Why, why do you keep after me? I could lick this. I know I could. But you--it's you, don't you see? It's because of you I'm like this. You scratch two words on a postcard, I come runnin' like a dog. And I don't understand it, and I never wanted it, I don't want it. i just don't want it.

I'm glad somebody had the sense to change that. The scene as we know it in the film is much better.

Well that's for sure! That bit of dialogue doesn't sound anything like the Ennis in the movie -- or even like Story Ennis, for that matter. To me, this really supports the idea that previous versions of the screenplay, though perhaps interesting for historical/archival purposes, really aren't relevant in analyzing the final product.

I can understand where you are coming from. But you are right ... we are on opposite sides. I see Ennis as being completely cut off from his emotions. He was taught to hate homosexuals ... in essense to hate himself. When Ennis comes up behind Jack in the flashback, the book and screenplay say:

"Later that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held."

IMO, Ennis could not face the reality that his one-in-a-lifetime love was a man until it was too late.

I do agree that Ennis was taught, in essence, to hate himself. But I long ago rejected the flashback as applying to the movie (or even, IMO, the story). Watch the reunion scene and then tell me that "Ennis couldn't embrace a man face to face becaue he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held." Um ... really?

The common denominator in both my points above is that, for the most part, we are analyzing a movie, a finished product. To me, a previous screenplay is no more relevant in that discussion than any earlier one of Annie Proulx's 60-some drafts is relevant -- interesting, perhaps, but not determinant. And though the story can sometimes be helpful in clarifying aspects of the movie -- such as lines of dialogue that make it into the movie intact but can't be heard clearly, or whatever -- the story is not the boss of the movie. They are two different works of art. If they differ, the story is not the ultimate authority over the movie. The story applies only to itself.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well that's for sure! That bit of dialogue doesn't sound anything like the Ennis in the movie -- or even like Story Ennis, for that matter. To me, this really supports the idea that previous versions of the screenplay, though perhaps interesting for historical/archival purposes, really aren't relevant in analyzing the final product.

Not surprisingly I'm sure, I have to disagree with you there, Katherine, because "the final product" did not spring, Athena-like, from Ang Lee's head. It was the result of an organic process that began with Annie Proulx's story. To me, Brokeback Mountain is a single and unique phenomenon comprising both story and film, and while they have their differences, for me nothing is irrelevant as data for analysis. I recognize and respect that others don't see it this way, but this is my story and I'm stickin' to it. 

I do agree that Ennis was taught, in essence, to hate himself. But I long ago rejected the flashback as applying to the movie (or even, IMO, the story). Watch the reunion scene and then tell me that "Ennis couldn't embrace a man face to face becaue he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held." Um ... really?

Here I both agree and disagree. Clearly, the story text, "that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face," makes no sense in light of a film that has TS2 (by the way, when did "TS2" become "SNIT" [eeew]?). But as regards the story, don't miss the importance of that little four-letter word "then." At the time that "dozy embrace" took place, Ennis couldn't face up to embracing Jack face to face. OK. But don't forget that by the time of the Story Reunion, Ennis had been wringing it out for three or four years while thinking of Jack, and had figured out that the cause of his gut cramps was that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights. The flashback is relevant to the story, just not to the story version of the reunion, I believe. By the time of the Story Reunion, Ennis was perfectly capable and willing to embrace Jack face to face--and I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant by the flashback not applying to the story.

[Giancarlo]

Basically, the gist of the blog stated that BBM was not a positive movie.  Not, 'not good'.  Simply, 'not positive'.  Not quite seeing the distinction, my friend continued to illustrate his (or rather the blogger’s) point.  It wasn’t just because of the incredibly sad ending that made the movie “unpositive”, but rather why the movie had a sad ending.

In the end, Brokeback Mountain was simply telling the story of two struggles. The friend really did not understand that fact. It was not supposed to be fluffy. There are plenty of fluffy gay films out there, as there are straight love films in that regard.

The blog went on to say that being gay, Jack & Ennis got exactly what they deserved.  Gays should be killed, if not ostracized and filled with a lifetime of loneliness & despair.  The bloggers orientation wasn't mentioned (or known, for all I know), but I have a suspicion which camp the blogger lives in.

This is almost a hitler like thought in my mind. This rhetoric is very dangerous in my eyes, and I can't believe that people believe such things. But Hitler also believed that the Jews should be ostracized, subjected to misery and ultimately killed.  That's how low I think of these people who believe such things. I think they are on the level of Hitler.

After all, he (or she) is entitled to their opinion.  And far be it for me to pass judgment without being fair...  Yes, the movie could be viewed as a clear reason why homosexuality is wrong, if one was to be so inclined to think this way.  However, it wasn’t how I came away from the movie thinking.  At first...

I think based on how this person is sounding it is perfectly rational to pass judgement onto them, as they are bigots. I do not feel this person even saw the movie, and rather relied on what other people were saying. I feel they had a strongly anti-gay opinion before this movie. I really don't think their opinions can be taken with any merit.

When I started to think about it, I could begin to see how BBM could shed a negative, disparaging light on gays.  True, I can’t control how people think; close-minded people will think how they want.  But if I, a gay man, can come away thinking BBM might be harmful to the gay community, how are many (not all) straight people going to feel?  I've read posts from straight men & women who loved this movie; others who venomously detested it.  So, does BBM project gays (and to a point, gay love) in a good light or a bad one?  If someone were anti-gay, they might cheer, “Awesome!  The faggots got what they deserved!", epitomized in Jack's death & and Ennis' despair.  And even if they were pro-gay, they might say, “Once again, a movie that makes gays look “bad”.” emphasized in all the shattered lives and the gut-wrenching, unhappy ending.  So, I wonder if there is a presiding opinion and/or stance on this, or is it (just like the movie’s intentional, ambiguous scenes) left up to the one’s own viewpoint?  Or is it simply, people will think what they want?

Not even. BBM does have a negative , disparaging message line. It was not about homosexuality, but rather it told the negatives about homophobia. It was not about the supposed "negatives" of homosexuality. It shows how gay people are treated. It was not meant to be a happy film. However, this film exposes the bigots in the world for what they are. This movie basically told a story about two men who truly loved each other and could not be with each other because of society. I don't know how I could make that anymore clear. BBM projects homophobia in a bad light, it does not present homosexuality in that way.

All in all, I think some people have to be careful how they interpret this film. They are entitled to their opinions but I feel some have predipositions before even watching it. Unfortunately such a telling story won't open their minds.