Author Topic: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll  (Read 3093165 times)

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7000 on: November 17, 2006, 10:08:02 pm »
For post 7000 I think we need this...



and this



Enjoy all...

Hugs to all of you, I love you so much! What an experience this has been...7000 posts, 61000+ views...unbelieveable. Thanks alll

L
xoxoxo
Taming Groomzilla<-- support equality for same-sex marriage in Maine by clicking this link!

Offline magicmountain

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7001 on: November 17, 2006, 10:08:24 pm »




They took off for a night in the Lincoln Suite.
Freezing they was, Ellery's ass and feet.
Let's just say things warmed up pretty darn fast
When Ellery and his 'deputy' got them clothes off at last.
Who needs a damn furnace when we get smex so sweet?


Yay! Another poet in the house!
Remember upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all. - Alexander the Great

Offline David

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7002 on: November 17, 2006, 10:12:35 pm »
Same sex marriage is legal in Massachusetts and became legal on May 17, 2004. It is the only state in the US where same sex marriage is legal. There are a few states (Vermont is one) that permit civil unions.

Leslie

Civil unions are legal here in Connecticut too.   But they are not recognized by other states where it is not legal.

Offline Bigheart

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7003 on: November 17, 2006, 10:42:53 pm »
Aww Leslie *huge hug back* I feel the same way! It's  UN-believeble and I love it  :)

And thanks so much for posting my favourite Hugh pic *gazes and drools*

 :-*

Offline Lumière

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7004 on: November 18, 2006, 12:02:49 am »
Yay! Another poet in the house!

Umm.. Jo, are you making fun of me?  ;D hehe ..





YAY for 7000 posts!
Woohoo!


Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7005 on: November 18, 2006, 01:19:30 am »
Who have really engaged with the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain?

1.   Those who allowed themselves to experience the reality of Jack’s death and his disappearance from the world and felt so devastated by what this tragedy meant in human terms and by the pain of Jack’s death they needed psychological healing.

2.   Those who refuse to read Dead!Jack stories, deny the reality of Jack’s death preferring to believe that Jack somehow survived. 

3.   Those for whom the story and Ennis’ life come to a dead end with Jack’s death.

The first group can read a story about how Ennis moves on because they have allowed themselves to face up to and feel the pain of his loss and grief, as well as their own as witness to this, and try to work through it.

The second group can never read such a thing because they cannot admit that Jack is dead let alone that Ennis might also work through his grief and loss to find a new life for himself. They have no need for healing because they never grieved Jack’s death.They have no need to grieve for Ennis because Ennis never lost Jack.

The third group can never read such a thing because Ennis only exists as an individual in terms of his relationship with Jack.

Groups 2 and 3 assert that they are the upholders of Annie’s vision in writing this story. Proulx’s story was one of loss. Where is the loss? Proulx’s capacity to create vivid characterization and Ang Lee's rendering of the evolution of Ennis’ character invite us to consider how his further development might unfold after the shock of Jack’s death. Where is this development?

Groups 2 and 3 also consider that Ennis' maturing sexuality and the representation of this with his new partner as debasing his character. Every sexual permutation in the book is allowed between two relatively unsophisticated country guys if those guys happen to be Ennis and Jack. What’s cool between them suddenly becomes something tawdry between Ennis and Ellery. No mystery as to the reason why.

So we have denial on one hand and a psychological dead end on the other. What a choice!

To actually mention the fact that Jack died is bad enough. To entertain the notion that Ennis might be allowed an existence and purpose without Jack invites excommunication.

I find this entire post baffling.

BBM is senseless, would have no impact if Jack Twist  lived. I know people who dislike the death of Jack, wish it could be another way  and still worship the story as written. If Jack lived, would it be the tale it is?? No way. None of us would be here, Louise would not be writing this saga, it would never have bitten deep.

It's a simple short story, not a saga, not a play, just a short story, the best written in English during the 20th century. As a story it actually broke new ground: BBM is the only successful case in the English language where a writer, any writer, IN ENGLISH created a Classic Tragedy using Attic construction, while updating it to fit modern needs and using an entirely different format from any known to Aeschylos, Euripides, Menander, Sophocles. Parts of Brokeback fit well into some books of the first western epoch, Iliad--when it comes to inner construction.  But not enough to make the slightest claim of 'copying' Homer. Just the intent.

 It's construction as a short story is reminiscent of Oedipos Rex, YES, that is very true. The miracle is it's format. BBM is not a play. It is a thoroughly modern short story. It uses the Attic method, wherein the characters are destroyed by their own flaws. If and when you approach AP's masterpiece from that direction it becomes seamlessly intelligable. It's use of symbolism re the Bull Rider reaches back directly to the first known civilisation in Europe, the Crete of Minos. It's symbolic double and triple meanings grab the heart and soul of classical tragedy. It's ultimate aim, to allow the reader to put his or her own experiences into play when reaching conclusions, is completely aeschylian.

This is a work where we are not given answers, we are meant to find them ourselves.  It reaches down into the depths and looks at ultimate meanings.  [ The Bacchae-Euripides] It does NOT give answers, it gives questions.

AP  told me a few weeks ago that she  ALWAYS intended to have a prologue from the moment she decided to write the story. Why? Because it is concieved of as a series of flashbacks, where the drive of emotional build has precedence over chronology. Hence the placement of Dozy embrace, the urination: FLASHBACKS. This is thoroughly modern AND completely classic--instead of those magnificent speeches, she uses mental flashbacks. A work for OUR time, not the 5th century BC. And the result was a new sort of work, one which changed the very nature of the short story in the English language. The prologue sets the tone, allows the reader to understand he/she is about to enter a total desolation while setting the construction of the tale of J & E in granite.

 It's over before it starts.

Now, I hate jack's death. But it was necessary. AP wept over her characters but KILLED JACK OFF.

Why? Because she had to, if she was to succeed in her goal..

Ennis in the prologue is of an indeterminate age, because that's what she wanted us to think--no easy answers, we make our own. The ultimate reaction comes from the heart, the mind, and the experience of the reader.

 OR viewer.

 AP left a spark of hope for the Ennis of her prologue. Ang lee left a spark of hope for the Ennis of his epilogue. Get the connection here? To translate the book  to film he put the emotions and hope-spark of the prologue into an EPILOGUE. One a mass audience would get, while preserving the essence of the story.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline magicmountain

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7006 on: November 18, 2006, 05:36:33 am »
Umm.. Jo, are you making fun of me?  ;D hehe ..

YAY for 7000 posts!
Woohoo!


No Mill - that was a 100 percent genuine Yay!  :D
Remember upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all. - Alexander the Great

Offline magicmountain

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7007 on: November 18, 2006, 06:02:12 am »


Looks like Francine and Junior decided to come along for the ride!
Remember upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all. - Alexander the Great

Offline souxi

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7008 on: November 18, 2006, 06:39:50 am »
Morning all, mornin June. ;) :-* Well after a stormy evening, during which we had torrential rain and gales, we had an overnight frost!! :o It,s bright and sunny today, so we need those gorgeous, handsome, sexy, delicious, edible boys to keep the sun shining please.  ;D ;D

Offline David

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Re: Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll
« Reply #7009 on: November 18, 2006, 07:04:19 am »


Looks like Francine and Junior decided to come along for the ride!

What the...?    I've never seen that pic before!