TOTW 27/08: Do you think Ennis would have asked Lureen for Jack's ashes?

[Penthesilea]

Hey BetterMostians,

it's been a while, but this week we have a question suggested by a member as TOTW . Whoo-eee!
Many thanks to Milo (Milomorris) for the suggestion!
 

I thought Milo's questions would work very well as a poll, so I created one. You have two votes, one for each question. The questions are self-explaining, so without further ado, here they are:

Do you think Ennis would have asked Lureen for the part of Jack's ashes that were in Texas? If so, would she allow them to be exhumed and taken to Brokeback?

[Front-Ranger]

The only way Ennis would have gotten Jack's ashes IMHO is if Lureen or OMT offered them to him. He wouldn't have made the risky step of asking for the ashes of a man who had been killed, he feared, for being gay. Not until he found the shirts, at least. And probably not afterwards, either. It just wouldn't be in his character.

[Penthesilea]

I voted no to the question whether Ennis would have asked Lureen for the part of Jack's ashes that were in Texas. I think he never-ever would.

But hypothetically, if he would have, I think maybe Lureen would have given him the ashes. So I voted I don't know on the second question.
She still loved/respected Jack enough that she wanted his wishes carried out: he was cremated like he wanted, she sent half of the ashes up to his folks because she thought Brokeback Mountain might be some place up there, and she sent Ennis to the Twists so he could scatter the ashes, like Jack had wanted.

But on the other side are practical considerations: the ashes would have to be exhumed. Would this go unnoticed in Childress? Or would it create a hoopla and gossip? While I think it wouldn't be important to Lureen if the ashes were actually in there where she put the stone up, I think she would have hated any gossip and speculation.

[mariez]

Well, it was probably hard enough for Ennis to make the trip to Lightning Flat and to approach OMT:

.....I come by to tell you that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife says he wanted I’d be proud to.”

So once he got turned down there, I can't imagine him calling Lureen back and wanting the ashes that were buried in Texas.  I don't think he would've had any contact with Lureen after that phone call.  And I also think that, once he found the shirts, the he wouldn't feel as much need to bury Jack's ashes on Brokeback because the shirts give him the realization that Brokeback's power was only "imagined."  Their love was the real power. 

Marie

[brokeplex]

as Ennis aged, overtime, he might have recontacted Lureen, and under the pretext that OMT was refusing Jack's last wishes, he might have requested some to be sent up.

were Jacks ashes actually buried? Lureen did put up a stone, but did she bury the ashes? Maybe she has the ashes on mantle somewhere?

[milomorris]

- We know that Ennis "...didn’t want to know Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain." So he was motivated.

- Since Ennis did ask OMT for Jack's ashes in his round-about way, I don't think it would be out of character for him to ask Lureen. Especially since she was the one who brought the idea up in the first place.

- Lureen was interested in seeing Jack's wishes carried out. In light of OMT's refusal, I think she might give Ennis the ashed buried in Childress if asked.

- I don't think Ennis was afraid of betting associated with a man who he feared was killed for being a homosexual. The SS bears no evidence that Ennis thought Lureen was lying to him. Perhaps he thought that she didn't know what "really" happened.

I think there is certainly room for the possibility.

[milomorris]

were Jacks ashes actually buried? Lureen did put up a stone, but did she bury the ashes? Maybe she has the ashes on mantle somewhere?

Answer:

So he was cremated, like he wanted, and, like I say, half his ashes was interred here, and the rest I sent up to his folks.

[Mandy21]

Brokeplex, in the film and in the short story, I believe Lureen says something to the effect of "half his ashes was interred here, and the rest I sent up to his folks".  Why would we question her using the word "interred", which according to Webster means, 'to put into a grave; bury'.  What's your premise/theory for us not believing her?

By the way, I voted No, and I agree very much with Chrissie as to why.  Lureen would have been mortified beyond belief is those ashes had to be dug up, and some explaining had to be done.  I think if Lureen had actually ever met Ennis or spoken to him on the phone, even, before Jack's death, that things might have been different, and she might have been a bit more sympathetic to Ennis's grief.  But that wasn't the case.

I also voted No because Ennis was never a man who needed many material objects in order to survive and live his life (or the semblance of the life that he led, more correctly).  Why would he need an urn of ashes to remind him every minute of every day for the rest of that life, of Jack?

[milomorris]

By the way, I voted No, and I agree very much with Chrissie as to why.  Lureen would have been mortified beyond belief is those ashes had to be dug up, and some explaining had to be done.

The only explaining that needed to be done was to say that "His father won't honor his wishes, so I will."
 

I also voted No because Ennis was never a man who needed many material objects in order to survive and live his life (or the semblance of the life that he led, more correctly).  Why would he need an urn of ashes to remind him every minute of every day for the rest of that life, of Jack?

The shirts and postcard are material objects.

[Katie77]

After the reception Ennis got on the phone from Laureen, I dont think he would have dared go near her for anything, let alone the ashes.

I thought she was nice to tell Ennis of Jack's wishes, about scattering his ashes on Brokeback, but I think Ennis may have twigged that she had worked out what kind of relationship Jack had with him, and because of that, I am sure he would have stayed away from her.

I think when Mrs Twist nodded to Ennis when he came down the stairs with the shirts, was her way of saying, "You might not have the ashes, but you have those shirts now"...

[Mandy21]

The only explaining that needed to be done was to say that "His father won't honor his wishes, so I will."
 
The shirts and postcard are material objects.

Hi Milo, thanks for bringing up this topic, it's interesting.  I like the way you worded the explanation that Lureen could have used, as that had never occurred to me.  Are you saying that, as the shovels were being hauled out, to untomb the urn, that she would have just said that, to all around her?  I'm not sure about that, and I only question it based on the scene where she's working at her dad's place, doing the books, and the two gentlemen in the room insult her husband, and she doesn't step up to defend him.  It boggles me how she doesn't do that; it's almost as if she is embarrassed that he is her husband in the first place.  And that happened fairly early on in their marriage, in the scheme of things.  Generally, marriages tend to go downhill when one of the partners doesn't respect or stand up for the other partner, would you agree?  If so, why would she be willing to stick her neck out and risk public humiliation and questioning and embarrassment, after he was gone and after he died in such a horrific way?  What would be the impetus for her to do such a thing, in front of the community that she is now living in alone, raising a child as a single mother, and presumably, knowing her wily ways, trying to find a new husband straight away?

And on the second point above, I believe I said that Ennis never needed MANY material things.  Look at his trailer at the end.  I've got boxes and boxes and BOXES of momentos from ex-boyfriends or my ex-husband.  They're all over my house, to make me feel good when I get sad, or feel insecure, to remind me of old loves.  Jack and Ennis's relationship was always a hidden one, we know that.  They weren't given the opportunity to demonstrate their love with material gifts to each other.  Just a postcard here and there, and finally, the shirts.  In Ennis's simple, loving mind and heart, he didn't need an urn of ashes in order to remember.

[Katie77]

I just thought of something else as I was reading your post Mandy.

The thought behind Jack wanting his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain.

Of course like most people, they request their ashes be scattered somewhere that holds nice memories for them.

The other reason, may have been, that he knew that once Ennis found out about his death, whenever that might have been, he would honour his wishes and that would mean, Ennis would have to go the Twist house to collect the ashes. Maybe he had told his mum, that if anything happened to him, and Ennis came to the house, to make sure she got him to go up to his room.........obviously hoping that he would find the shirts.

The look on Mrs Twist's face, when Ennis came down with the shirts, was not one of surprise, but more of "you found them, good"......and there was no hesitation in her getting a bag so Ennis could take them with him. It seemed to be pre-planned. Like Jack was giving him his own piece of Brokeback Mountain to hang onto.

[Artiste]

Merci Katie !

You say brilliantly:
       The other reason, may have been, that he knew that once Ennis found out about his death, whenever that might have been, he would honour his wishes and that would mean, Ennis would have to go the Twist house to collect the ashes. Maybe he had told his mum, that if anything happened to him, and Ennis came to the house, to make sure she got him to go up to his room.........obviously hoping that he would find the shirts.

The look on Mrs Twist's face, when Ennis came down with the shirts, was not one of surprise, but more of "you found them, good"......and there was no hesitation in her getting a bag so Ennis could take them with him. It seemed to be pre-planned. Like Jack was giving him his own piece of Brokeback Mountain to hang onto.
 
 
                 
..........

Wow Katie, beautifully described!

Au reovir,
hugs!

[David In Indy]

I think Ennis probably would ask for Jack's ashes. He asked for Jack's shirt, and Ma Twist said yes and carefully placed the shirt in a bag.

However I don't think Lureen would have allowed it. In my opinion she had a grudge against Ennis. She resented the relationship between Jack and Ennis and I don't think she would want to help Ennis. In other words she would be thinking "you took Jack away from me in life, so I'll keep him away from you after his death". Something like that. I know many others here feel differently about it, but I just can't see Lureen doing it.

[Mandy21]

Ooh, that's an interesting statement, David, about Lureen having a grudge against Ennis.  That actually raises an entirely different conversation.  Wow...  We listen to her in the blue parka conversation, and then we hear her at the end, after Jack's death.  It's interesting that you think Lureen was clever/smart/perceptive enough to know that Ennis was interfering/begrudging her the idyllic life she was looking for in her dreams.  I just really don't believe that Lureen ever picked up on the clues of Jack's other life.

[David In Indy]

Ooh, that's an interesting statement, David, about Lureen having a grudge against Ennis.  That actually raises an entirely different conversation.  Wow...  We listen to her in the blue parka conversation, and then we hear her at the end, after Jack's death.  It's interesting that you think Lureen was clever/smart/perceptive enough to know that Ennis was interfering/begrudging her the idyllic life she was looking for in her dreams.  I just really don't believe that Lureen ever picked up on the clues of Jack's other life.

Lureen's veiled hostility towards Ennis during their phone conversation tipped me off, but I could be wrong Mandy. Also she gently chastised Jack for going to Wyoming on one of his "fishing trips". I had a weird feeling about that as well. I think she knew what was going on. But like I said, I could be wrong.

[Katie77]

I think Laureen would have had her suspicions about Jack. Her comment about Jack keeping his friends names in his head, indicated that maybe Jack had other male friends whom she had not met. I think the fact that Jack had said Brokeback was his favourite place, and then Ennis telling her that he and Jack had worked up there together years ago, probably told Laureen, that this one, Ennis, was obviously the one who Jack felt the closest to.

Jack had told Ennis that their sex life was practically non existent, so obviously that either waned over the years, or there was just no sexual feeling between the two of them.  Most wives would get suspicious if their husband was no interested in sex with her, first off she would think of another woman, but if Jack had male friends only, that she had not met, sooner or later the penny would probbly drop, and once Laureen had suspicions that there were other men on the scene, she would be picking up on things a lot easier.

I think the way Laureen described the tyre blow out incident, it was said in a way, like, "I knew one day, something like this would happen"....and the way she recited the incident over the phone, was like a written script that she had worked out to tell people, whether they believed it or not, that was the story, and she was sticking to it.

It was her and her sons right to have half the ashes, so I dont think Ennis would ever have asked for them from her. I think he would have had more respect for her than to ask her that.  I dont think he would have asked the Twists, if it had not been for Jacks request, and he seemed to accept OMT saying that Jack would be buried in the family plot. They were Jack's family after all and had that right.

Ennis was not the only one who lost someone, or who was mourning him....the Twists lost a son, Laureen lost a husband, and more importantly, Bobby lost a father. 

If anything, the whole situation shows, that although the relationship Ennis and Jack had, was probably the most intimate and loving relationship out of all Jack's other relationships with his family...in the end, Ennis had no say in what happened to his lover, after he was gone.

I wonder if that was a comparison, to what can happen in other gay relationships that we have heard about, when one of them dies, the partner has  no legal right to the same things, he would have, if they were legally married.

[Luvlylittlewing]

Lureen's veiled hostility towards Ennis during their phone conversation tipped me off, but I could be wrong Mandy. Also she gently chastised Jack for going to Wyoming on one of his "fishing trips". I had a weird feeling about that as well. I think she knew what was going on. But like I said, I could be wrong.

David, first I'll say that I voted no, Ennis would not have asked Lureen for Jack's ashes.  I find your feeling about Lureen interesting, but I don't agree.  I don't think Ennis was her favorite person, especially after she discovered what he meant to Jack, but I don't think she held a grudge against him.  If she did hold a grudge, I don't think she would have asked him to go and carry out Jack's wishes.  She would have withheld information about Jack's ashes, his final wish, the fact that Brokeback was his favorite place. 

[Katie77]

David, first I'll say that I voted no, Ennis would not have asked Lureen for Jack's ashes.  I find your feeling about Lureen interesting, but I don't agree.  I don't think Ennis was her favorite person, especially after she discovered what he meant to Jack, but I don't think she held a grudge against him.  If she did hold a grudge, I don't think she would have asked him to go and carry out Jack's wishes.  She would have withheld information about Jack's ashes, his final wish, the fact that Brokeback was his favorite place. 

She mentioned the fact about Jack's wishes and Brokeback Mountain, before Ennis told her that they had herded sheep there back in 1963.....it was after that, that her demeanour seemed to change.

If nothing else, she would have then realized that a place he spent with Ennis, some 20yrs ago, was his favourite place, in some ways telling her, that anything she had with him in between, was not so important or precious to him.....

I dont think she really had a grudge, but in those few sentences, she found out a lot about Jack, and maybe it answered all those questions of why he used to drive to Wyoming to go "fishing" with him.......

[David In Indy]

I think Laureen would have had her suspicions about Jack. Her comment about Jack keeping his friends names in his head, indicated that maybe Jack had other male friends whom she had not met. I think the fact that Jack had said Brokeback was his favourite place, and then Ennis telling her that he and Jack had worked up there together years ago, probably told Laureen, that this one, Ennis, was obviously the one who Jack felt the closest to.

Jack had told Ennis that their sex life was practically non existent, so obviously that either waned over the years, or there was just no sexual feeling between the two of them.  Most wives would get suspicious if their husband was no interested in sex with her, first off she would think of another woman, but if Jack had male friends only, that she had not met, sooner or later the penny would probbly drop, and once Laureen had suspicions that there were other men on the scene, she would be picking up on things a lot easier.

I think the way Laureen described the tyre blow out incident, it was said in a way, like, "I knew one day, something like this would happen"....and the way she recited the incident over the phone, was like a written script that she had worked out to tell people, whether they believed it or not, that was the story, and she was sticking to it.

It was her and her sons right to have half the ashes, so I dont think Ennis would ever have asked for them from her. I think he would have had more respect for her than to ask her that.  I dont think he would have asked the Twists, if it had not been for Jacks request, and he seemed to accept OMT saying that Jack would be buried in the family plot. They were Jack's family after all and had that right.

Ennis was not the only one who lost someone, or who was mourning him....the Twists lost a son, Laureen lost a husband, and more importantly, Bobby lost a father. 

If anything, the whole situation shows, that although the relationship Ennis and Jack had, was probably the most intimate and loving relationship out of all Jack's other relationships with his family...in the end, Ennis had no say in what happened to his lover, after he was gone.

I wonder if that was a comparison, to what can happen in other gay relationships that we have heard about, when one of them dies, the partner has  no legal right to the same things, he would have, if they were legally married.

David, first I'll say that I voted no, Ennis would not have asked Lureen for Jack's ashes.  I find your feeling about Lureen interesting, but I don't agree.  I don't think Ennis was her favorite person, especially after she discovered what he meant to Jack, but I don't think she held a grudge against him.  If she did hold a grudge, I don't think she would have asked him to go and carry out Jack's wishes.  She would have withheld information about Jack's ashes, his final wish, the fact that Brokeback was his favorite place. 

Hi Marie and Sue!!

First of all, I should probably point out that when I said Ennis would ask for Jack's ashes, I didn't mean all of them. I just meant the ashes would be divided, Ennis would carry part of them off to Brokeback and Lureen would re-inter the other half.

As far as Lureen's grudge towards Ennis - that is just something I can't seem to get past. I've always felt she held a grudge towards him. She was angry at Jack and jealous of Ennis. Deep and veiled perhaps, but I believe it was there. I suppose each of us get different messages from the story and the movie, and that's what makes it so personal to each of us. No two people interpret it in the exact same way.

[brokeplex]

Brokeplex, in the film and in the short story, I believe Lureen says something to the effect of "half his ashes was interred here, and the rest I sent up to his folks".  Why would we question her using the word "interred", which according to Webster means, 'to put into a grave; bury'.  What's your premise/theory for us not believing her?

By the way, I voted No, and I agree very much with Chrissie as to why.  Lureen would have been mortified beyond belief is those ashes had to be dug up, and some explaining had to be done.  I think if Lureen had actually ever met Ennis or spoken to him on the phone, even, before Jack's death, that things might have been different, and she might have been a bit more sympathetic to Ennis's grief.  But that wasn't the case.

I also voted No because Ennis was never a man who needed many material objects in order to survive and live his life (or the semblance of the life that he led, more correctly).  Why would he need an urn of ashes to remind him every minute of every day for the rest of that life, of Jack?

its the odd usage of the word "interred" that caused a question flag to pop up in my consciousness. I don't believe that is it is a word Lureen would use in her ordinary conversations. I am confident that she knew how to correctly use the word, but I am not confident that she would use "interred" over "buried", unless special conditions applied. I also noticed that she said to Ennis that "we put up a stone", that also triggered some questions in my mind, as a grave marker stone is implied and didn't need to be stated unless special conditions applied. If Lureen buried Jack's ashes in a local cemetery I can see her saying it much more plainly : as in "We buried half of Jack's ashes down here, and sent the rest up to his folks in Lightening Flat". But, she doesn't say that, she qualifies it too much.

So, I have a doubt that all of Jack's ashes in Lureen's possesion ended up in the ground. 

3 dictionary results for: interred
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
in·ter      /ɪnˈtɜr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-tur] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -terred, -ter·ring. 1. to place (a dead body) in a grave or tomb; bury. 
2. Obsolete. to put into the earth. 
[Origin: 1275–1325; ME enteren < MF enterrer, prob. < VL *interrāre, deriv. of terra earth; see in-2]
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary

[Penthesilea]

its the odd usage of the word "interred" that caused a question flag to pop up in my consciousness. I don't believe that is it is a word Lureen would use in her ordinary conversations. I am confident that she knew how to correctly use the word, but I am not confident that she would use "interred" over "buried", unless special conditions applied. I also noticed that she said to Ennis that "we put up a stone", that also triggered some questions in my mind, as a grave marker stone is implied and didn't need to be stated unless special conditions applied. If Lureen buried Jack's ashes in a local cemetery I can see her saying it much more plainly : as in "We buried half of Jack's ashes down here, and sent the rest up to his folks in Lightening Flat". But, she doesn't say that, she qualifies it too much.

Thank you for saying this! Her specific wording always rang strange to me. But being not a native speaker, I always shrugged it off as something probably rooted in her time and location.
I will think some more about it, but what instantly comes to my mind are Ang Lee's words: "... she's lying. Lureen is clearly lying on the phone..." (citing from memory).

[brokeplex]

Thank you for saying this! Her specific wording always rang strange to me. But being not a native speaker, I always shrugged it off as something probably rooted in her time and location.
I will think some more about it, but what instantly comes to my mind are Ang Lee's words: "... she's lying. Lureen is clearly lying on the phone..." (citing from memory).

  excellent observation! and I agree, Lureen's word choices in her conversation with Ennis reflects that something is amiss in Childress. I did some Fanfic a while back that has takes this as an issue.

I'd like to comment on your question about Lureen's usage of the word being rooted in her time and location. I grew up in a small town in TX back in the 60's and 70's that is similar in size and population to Childress, and my opinion is she would have used the more commonly used word "buried". Perhaps the local mortician might use "interred", but I don't see Lureen, even though she is an intelligent college educated woman, using the word "interred", unless unusual circumstances apply that we are not aware of.

[Artiste]

Brokeplex, if indeed Jack is dead, then maybe Lureen has went to Brokeback Mountain to place some of his ashes?

Could that possibly be ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

Brokeplex, if indeed Jack is dead, then maybe Lureen has went to Brokeback Mountain to place some of his ashes?

Could that possibly be ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I am doubtful that Lureen would travel to Brokeback in 1983 to fulfill Jacks wishes. however, in the future, maybe if she met Ennis and dealt fully with the all of the implications of the murder of Jack, well then maybe she might journey up to WY and fulfill Jack's request - maybe.

[Artiste]

Merci Brokeplex!

It could be as you say, in your post.

I tend now to think that Lureen had to hide Jack from the criminals that she had seen who wanted her husband's death !!

That would change the ball game, would it not ? In that line of thought as an issue and considering the ashes, Lureen also needs to protect the ashes, if Jack is dead; she has to do so also from criminals, but will not from Ennis but just for now, she does likely temporarily !

Au revoir,
hugs!