TOTW 27/08: Do you think Ennis would have asked Lureen for Jack's ashes?

[Mandy21]

The only explaining that needed to be done was to say that "His father won't honor his wishes, so I will."
 
The shirts and postcard are material objects.

Hi Milo, thanks for bringing up this topic, it's interesting.  I like the way you worded the explanation that Lureen could have used, as that had never occurred to me.  Are you saying that, as the shovels were being hauled out, to untomb the urn, that she would have just said that, to all around her?  I'm not sure about that, and I only question it based on the scene where she's working at her dad's place, doing the books, and the two gentlemen in the room insult her husband, and she doesn't step up to defend him.  It boggles me how she doesn't do that; it's almost as if she is embarrassed that he is her husband in the first place.  And that happened fairly early on in their marriage, in the scheme of things.  Generally, marriages tend to go downhill when one of the partners doesn't respect or stand up for the other partner, would you agree?  If so, why would she be willing to stick her neck out and risk public humiliation and questioning and embarrassment, after he was gone and after he died in such a horrific way?  What would be the impetus for her to do such a thing, in front of the community that she is now living in alone, raising a child as a single mother, and presumably, knowing her wily ways, trying to find a new husband straight away?

And on the second point above, I believe I said that Ennis never needed MANY material things.  Look at his trailer at the end.  I've got boxes and boxes and BOXES of momentos from ex-boyfriends or my ex-husband.  They're all over my house, to make me feel good when I get sad, or feel insecure, to remind me of old loves.  Jack and Ennis's relationship was always a hidden one, we know that.  They weren't given the opportunity to demonstrate their love with material gifts to each other.  Just a postcard here and there, and finally, the shirts.  In Ennis's simple, loving mind and heart, he didn't need an urn of ashes in order to remember.

[Katie77]

I just thought of something else as I was reading your post Mandy.

The thought behind Jack wanting his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain.

Of course like most people, they request their ashes be scattered somewhere that holds nice memories for them.

The other reason, may have been, that he knew that once Ennis found out about his death, whenever that might have been, he would honour his wishes and that would mean, Ennis would have to go the Twist house to collect the ashes. Maybe he had told his mum, that if anything happened to him, and Ennis came to the house, to make sure she got him to go up to his room.........obviously hoping that he would find the shirts.

The look on Mrs Twist's face, when Ennis came down with the shirts, was not one of surprise, but more of "you found them, good"......and there was no hesitation in her getting a bag so Ennis could take them with him. It seemed to be pre-planned. Like Jack was giving him his own piece of Brokeback Mountain to hang onto.

[Artiste]

Merci Katie !

You say brilliantly:
       The other reason, may have been, that he knew that once Ennis found out about his death, whenever that might have been, he would honour his wishes and that would mean, Ennis would have to go the Twist house to collect the ashes. Maybe he had told his mum, that if anything happened to him, and Ennis came to the house, to make sure she got him to go up to his room.........obviously hoping that he would find the shirts.

The look on Mrs Twist's face, when Ennis came down with the shirts, was not one of surprise, but more of "you found them, good"......and there was no hesitation in her getting a bag so Ennis could take them with him. It seemed to be pre-planned. Like Jack was giving him his own piece of Brokeback Mountain to hang onto.
 
 
                 
..........

Wow Katie, beautifully described!

Au reovir,
hugs!

[David In Indy]

I think Ennis probably would ask for Jack's ashes. He asked for Jack's shirt, and Ma Twist said yes and carefully placed the shirt in a bag.

However I don't think Lureen would have allowed it. In my opinion she had a grudge against Ennis. She resented the relationship between Jack and Ennis and I don't think she would want to help Ennis. In other words she would be thinking "you took Jack away from me in life, so I'll keep him away from you after his death". Something like that. I know many others here feel differently about it, but I just can't see Lureen doing it.

[Mandy21]

Ooh, that's an interesting statement, David, about Lureen having a grudge against Ennis.  That actually raises an entirely different conversation.  Wow...  We listen to her in the blue parka conversation, and then we hear her at the end, after Jack's death.  It's interesting that you think Lureen was clever/smart/perceptive enough to know that Ennis was interfering/begrudging her the idyllic life she was looking for in her dreams.  I just really don't believe that Lureen ever picked up on the clues of Jack's other life.

[David In Indy]

Ooh, that's an interesting statement, David, about Lureen having a grudge against Ennis.  That actually raises an entirely different conversation.  Wow...  We listen to her in the blue parka conversation, and then we hear her at the end, after Jack's death.  It's interesting that you think Lureen was clever/smart/perceptive enough to know that Ennis was interfering/begrudging her the idyllic life she was looking for in her dreams.  I just really don't believe that Lureen ever picked up on the clues of Jack's other life.

Lureen's veiled hostility towards Ennis during their phone conversation tipped me off, but I could be wrong Mandy. Also she gently chastised Jack for going to Wyoming on one of his "fishing trips". I had a weird feeling about that as well. I think she knew what was going on. But like I said, I could be wrong.

[Katie77]

I think Laureen would have had her suspicions about Jack. Her comment about Jack keeping his friends names in his head, indicated that maybe Jack had other male friends whom she had not met. I think the fact that Jack had said Brokeback was his favourite place, and then Ennis telling her that he and Jack had worked up there together years ago, probably told Laureen, that this one, Ennis, was obviously the one who Jack felt the closest to.

Jack had told Ennis that their sex life was practically non existent, so obviously that either waned over the years, or there was just no sexual feeling between the two of them.  Most wives would get suspicious if their husband was no interested in sex with her, first off she would think of another woman, but if Jack had male friends only, that she had not met, sooner or later the penny would probbly drop, and once Laureen had suspicions that there were other men on the scene, she would be picking up on things a lot easier.

I think the way Laureen described the tyre blow out incident, it was said in a way, like, "I knew one day, something like this would happen"....and the way she recited the incident over the phone, was like a written script that she had worked out to tell people, whether they believed it or not, that was the story, and she was sticking to it.

It was her and her sons right to have half the ashes, so I dont think Ennis would ever have asked for them from her. I think he would have had more respect for her than to ask her that.  I dont think he would have asked the Twists, if it had not been for Jacks request, and he seemed to accept OMT saying that Jack would be buried in the family plot. They were Jack's family after all and had that right.

Ennis was not the only one who lost someone, or who was mourning him....the Twists lost a son, Laureen lost a husband, and more importantly, Bobby lost a father. 

If anything, the whole situation shows, that although the relationship Ennis and Jack had, was probably the most intimate and loving relationship out of all Jack's other relationships with his family...in the end, Ennis had no say in what happened to his lover, after he was gone.

I wonder if that was a comparison, to what can happen in other gay relationships that we have heard about, when one of them dies, the partner has  no legal right to the same things, he would have, if they were legally married.

[Luvlylittlewing]

Lureen's veiled hostility towards Ennis during their phone conversation tipped me off, but I could be wrong Mandy. Also she gently chastised Jack for going to Wyoming on one of his "fishing trips". I had a weird feeling about that as well. I think she knew what was going on. But like I said, I could be wrong.

David, first I'll say that I voted no, Ennis would not have asked Lureen for Jack's ashes.  I find your feeling about Lureen interesting, but I don't agree.  I don't think Ennis was her favorite person, especially after she discovered what he meant to Jack, but I don't think she held a grudge against him.  If she did hold a grudge, I don't think she would have asked him to go and carry out Jack's wishes.  She would have withheld information about Jack's ashes, his final wish, the fact that Brokeback was his favorite place. 

[Katie77]

David, first I'll say that I voted no, Ennis would not have asked Lureen for Jack's ashes.  I find your feeling about Lureen interesting, but I don't agree.  I don't think Ennis was her favorite person, especially after she discovered what he meant to Jack, but I don't think she held a grudge against him.  If she did hold a grudge, I don't think she would have asked him to go and carry out Jack's wishes.  She would have withheld information about Jack's ashes, his final wish, the fact that Brokeback was his favorite place. 

She mentioned the fact about Jack's wishes and Brokeback Mountain, before Ennis told her that they had herded sheep there back in 1963.....it was after that, that her demeanour seemed to change.

If nothing else, she would have then realized that a place he spent with Ennis, some 20yrs ago, was his favourite place, in some ways telling her, that anything she had with him in between, was not so important or precious to him.....

I dont think she really had a grudge, but in those few sentences, she found out a lot about Jack, and maybe it answered all those questions of why he used to drive to Wyoming to go "fishing" with him.......

[David In Indy]

I think Laureen would have had her suspicions about Jack. Her comment about Jack keeping his friends names in his head, indicated that maybe Jack had other male friends whom she had not met. I think the fact that Jack had said Brokeback was his favourite place, and then Ennis telling her that he and Jack had worked up there together years ago, probably told Laureen, that this one, Ennis, was obviously the one who Jack felt the closest to.

Jack had told Ennis that their sex life was practically non existent, so obviously that either waned over the years, or there was just no sexual feeling between the two of them.  Most wives would get suspicious if their husband was no interested in sex with her, first off she would think of another woman, but if Jack had male friends only, that she had not met, sooner or later the penny would probbly drop, and once Laureen had suspicions that there were other men on the scene, she would be picking up on things a lot easier.

I think the way Laureen described the tyre blow out incident, it was said in a way, like, "I knew one day, something like this would happen"....and the way she recited the incident over the phone, was like a written script that she had worked out to tell people, whether they believed it or not, that was the story, and she was sticking to it.

It was her and her sons right to have half the ashes, so I dont think Ennis would ever have asked for them from her. I think he would have had more respect for her than to ask her that.  I dont think he would have asked the Twists, if it had not been for Jacks request, and he seemed to accept OMT saying that Jack would be buried in the family plot. They were Jack's family after all and had that right.

Ennis was not the only one who lost someone, or who was mourning him....the Twists lost a son, Laureen lost a husband, and more importantly, Bobby lost a father. 

If anything, the whole situation shows, that although the relationship Ennis and Jack had, was probably the most intimate and loving relationship out of all Jack's other relationships with his family...in the end, Ennis had no say in what happened to his lover, after he was gone.

I wonder if that was a comparison, to what can happen in other gay relationships that we have heard about, when one of them dies, the partner has  no legal right to the same things, he would have, if they were legally married.

David, first I'll say that I voted no, Ennis would not have asked Lureen for Jack's ashes.  I find your feeling about Lureen interesting, but I don't agree.  I don't think Ennis was her favorite person, especially after she discovered what he meant to Jack, but I don't think she held a grudge against him.  If she did hold a grudge, I don't think she would have asked him to go and carry out Jack's wishes.  She would have withheld information about Jack's ashes, his final wish, the fact that Brokeback was his favorite place. 

Hi Marie and Sue!!

First of all, I should probably point out that when I said Ennis would ask for Jack's ashes, I didn't mean all of them. I just meant the ashes would be divided, Ennis would carry part of them off to Brokeback and Lureen would re-inter the other half.

As far as Lureen's grudge towards Ennis - that is just something I can't seem to get past. I've always felt she held a grudge towards him. She was angry at Jack and jealous of Ennis. Deep and veiled perhaps, but I believe it was there. I suppose each of us get different messages from the story and the movie, and that's what makes it so personal to each of us. No two people interpret it in the exact same way.