Jack's and Ennis' gaydar

[serious crayons]

We've talked about how Jack seems to recognize and accept his sexuality right from the beginning of the movie. And we've debated various ideas about when Ennis recognizes his own, and when he accepts it -- if ever.

But when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?

Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?

As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?

When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?

[gattaca]

We've talked about how Jack seems to recognize and accept his sexuality right from the beginning of the movie. And we've debated various ideas about when Ennis recognizes his own, and when he accepts it -- if ever.

But when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?

Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?

As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?

When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?

Interesting topic!

It's a puzzler for me, because my 'gaydar' is broken. Needs calibration or a new transistor or something.

I read somewhere that 78% of all human communication is NON-verbal. Language can be more of a hindrance than a conduit. I think both Jack and Ennis were seeking a more intimate bond with each other on some level. Jack's vision was probably more forthright and well-conceived than Ennis's.
I believe that no one is exclusively hetero or homosexual, but most of us have strong leanings one way or the other.

Social contraints in Wyoming in the early 60s would have tended to suppress any outward manifestations of one man's affections towards another, but such constraints would have been irrelevant up on the mountain.

I think it just took Ennis a little longer to read his own heart.

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Katherine,
Thanks for starting the thread.  I'm going to copy the link back to the Randall really is... thread back on CT here for cross-referencing purposes if people are interested http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2767.45


I think the issue of gaydar/ moments of initial attraction all go back to the first enigmatic interactions in front of Aguirre's trailer.   None of these interactions and glances can ever be pegged down for sure (especially since everything happens in silence).  But, I remember old threads that used to point to this opening interaction as evidence that Ennis was attracted to Jack right away.

I'm guessing that Jack did notice that Ennis was looking at him in the parking lot.  Even though they were careful not to make eye contact (and inside Aguirre's trailer... they look at each other in turns, not simultaneously) I'm sure Jack got the sense (out of the corner of his eye, or just from vibes) that Ennis was checking him out.  Like the scene were Jack is (probably) checking out naked-Ennis through his peripheral vision, I'm guessing similar things might be happening in this opening sequence.  I think his cute urge to pose himself against his truck for Ennis was part of this.

Back on the Randall really is... thread the discussion has turned to the question of double-readings of moments that suggest societal homophobia.  [I'm paraphrasing some main points from that thread... so please bear with me for a sec...]The clear example of this is Jack's situation in the bar with Jimbo.  Are the guys around the pool table alerted to Jack's come-on by Jimbo as he approaches them?  Is this group of people around the pool table a potential menace to Jack?  Or do we just see it that way...  Are they just gossiping amongst themselves and not even paying any attention to Jack?  Has society conditioned Jack/ us to actually almost feel a sense of homophobic danger here?

I'm bringing this up because the idea of societal conditioning, I think, plays in to the opening sequence of interaction between Jack and Ennis. We/ the audience (even if we're gay and/or know all about what this story is about) are so conditioned to looking at interactions between cowboys as almost anything other than flirting that we might simply miss all sorts of homosexual behavior/ vibes going on.  What I mean here is that society might condition us/ characters like Jack and Ennis to perceive homophobia even in situations where it's not there... and similarly society might condition us to not notice/ dismiss visible gay behavior even when it's right in front of us.  The idea of silencing or making gay people/ behavior invisible is one manifestation of the same homophobic society.  So, no wonder we and Jack/ Ennis are confused about where everything stands and when the signs really are all in place that will allow Jack to grab Ennis's hand with confidence.    If Ang Lee and these actors really are tuned into subtleties like this than they absolutely deserve every award they won.

But, back to Jack's gaydar... I think Jack probably has almost super-human gaydar.  My point on the other thread was/is that he pegged Ennis of all people.  And, he figured Randall out and really attracted Randall with a few bats of his eyelashes across the dinner table.  Interestingly, Jack's most successful moments, capitalizing on his gaydar, happen in silence.  Randall is attracted to Jack (and Jack notices this) in a situation when they cannot openly discuss the chemistry that's going back and forth between them.  The attraction is established before the chat on the bench (in my opinion).  And, Jack's greatest success in wooing a male lover is clearly Ennis... and again all the initial moments of attraction happen in silence.  The one exception might be the "I ain't had the opportunity" chat (where Jack might actually be picking up on an overt verbal clue... but that's clearly opent to debate).  And then the question becomes, was Jimbo really gay and just super closeted out of fear of the environment/ bartender? 

[Mikaela]

was Jimbo really gay and just super closeted out of fear of the environment/ bartender?

That's my opinion. Jimbo's lines are all delivered with furtive glances towards the bartender; - as if he's playing a role as aloof straight guy and wants to be absolutely sure the bartender gets his performance. I think Jack's gaydar worked prefectly where Jimbo was concerned. Which adds another tiny sliver to the tragedy of the film -  Jimbo being another "victim" of their time and place.

The one exception might be the "I ain't had the opportunity" chat (where Jack might be actually picking up on an overt verbal clue... but that's clearly opent to debate.

In the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus that has been referenced a couple of places, it appears Ennis's line actually is: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that). At any rate it clearly indicated that Ennis's line was intended to be understood by Jack and us as a comment on sexuality. It's understandable that they'd later remove the reference to Alma as he's flirting with a man there. Plus, it increases that ever-present ambiguity.

[serious crayons]

Jimbo's lines are all delivered with furtive glances towards the bartender; - as if he's playing a role as aloof straight guy and wants to be absolutely sure the bartender gets his performance.

Oh, RIGHT! I didn't think about this before, but now that you mention it, sure.
 

In the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus that has been referenced a couple of places, it appears Ennis's line actually is: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that).

Wow, I'm sure glad they changed that! Not only for the reasons you mention, but because I love the fact that Alma's name only comes up twice, and both times it's given no further comment. Particularly conspicuously so the first time, when Ennis mentions his impending nuptuals and Jack ignores it and goes back to complaining about Aguirre. When two people are attracted to each other and one is involved with someone else, it's natural for both to avoid mentioning the someone else.

As someone pointed out on a thread long ago, that's another thing that must have set off a little beep on both their gaydars -- the fact that neither ever says much about women or sex at all, pretty unusual for 19-year-old guys.

Is this group of people around the pool table a potential menace to Jack?  Or do we just see it that way...  Are they just gossiping amongst themselves and not even paying any attention to Jack?  Has society conditioned Jack/ us to actually almost feel a sense of homophobic danger here?

Yes, and here's another crippling effect of societal homophobia -- the pool players may or may not be talking about Jack, but for his own safety Jack has to assume they are and get the hell out of there.

I think Jack probably has almost super-human gaydar.  My point on the other thread was/is that he pegged Ennis of all people.  And, he figured Randall out and really attracted Randall with a few bats of his eyelashes across the dinner table.

Maybe so! I guess I had all along assumed just the opposite -- that in that place and time all Jack could do was give it a shot every now and then and hope the other guy was also gay and therefore receptive. Between Ennis and Jimbo, his score was 1 and 1. A possible argument for this is that Jack may have had an exaggerated idea of what proportion of men actually WERE gay -- he surely hadn't read Alfred Kinsey's books or anything and, living out on that isolated ranch, he'd be familiar only with his own feelings. Maybe, unlike Ennis, he hadn't even heard much talk about homosexuality, growing up. Clearly Jack's dad isn't the world's most open-minded guy, but it may not have been the big issue for him that it was for Ennis' dad.

But I like your explanation better, Amanda; it makes more sense. For that matter, maybe gay people's gaydar in general was more superhuman back then, our of necessity -- they had to rely on really subtle cues because it had to be so much on the QT. And though I think Randall was doing most of the instigating at the dance, he in turn must have picked up cues from Jack -- and maybe Jack was deliberately sending them.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think the issue of gaydar/ moments of initial attraction all go back to the first enigmatic interactions in front of Aguirre's trailer.   None of these interactions and glances can ever be pegged down for sure (especially since everything happens in silence).  But, I remember old threads that used to point to this opening interaction as evidence that Ennis was attracted to Jack right away.

Ennis attracted to Jack right away? I've missed those discussions, I think. Jack noticing that Ennis is attractive? Sure enough. Ennis being immediately attracted to Jack? Immediately as in outside Aguirre's office? No, I don't buy that.

I'm guessing that Jack did notice that Ennis was looking at him in the parking lot.  Even though they were careful not to make eye contact (and inside Aguirre's trailer... they look at each other in turns, not simultaneously) I'm sure Jack got the sense (out of the corner of his eye, or just from vibes) that Ennis was checking him out.  Like the scene were Jack is (probably) checking out naked-Ennis through his peripheral vision, I'm guessing similar things might be happening in this opening sequence.  I think his cute urge to pose himself against his truck for Ennis was part of this.

  Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but I gotta laugh because it seems we see so much of this from directly opposite positions. I don't think Jack's posing was a response to Ennis checking him out, I think he's trying to get Ennis's attention. Jack thinks Ennis is attractive and he's trying to get a rise out of Ennis (sorry--couldn't resist that!) to see if there's any returned interest.

It's true, as you said, we can't peg down these interactions definitively. I'm not willing to go too far on them, the interactions in the parking lot and Aguirre's office, because of my understanding that they knew when they arrived there that they would be working for the summer with some other guy. It would have been really strange if they hadn't checked each other out. As for Ennis, I've concluded long ago and to my own satisfaction that one reason for the way he responds--or barely responds--to Jack in those early scenes is because he's shy. He was raised lonely and he isn't very well socialized.

Back on the Randall really is... thread the discussion has turned to the question of double-readings of moments that suggest societal homophobia.  [I'm paraphrasing some main points from that thread... so please bear with me for a sec...]The clear example of this is Jack's situation in the bar with Jimbo.  Are the guys around the pool table alerted to Jack's come-on by Jimbo as he approaches them?  Is this group of people around the pool table a potential menace to Jack?  Or do we just see it that way...  Are they just gossiping amongst themselves and not even paying any attention to Jack?  Has society conditioned Jack/ us to actually almost feel a sense of homophobic danger here?

I'll just mention here that at one point in the development of the film (the 2004 screenplay), those guys gathered around the pool table all did turn and look at Jack, so there was, at that point, I believe an intention to convey a threat there.

But, back to Jack's gaydar... I think Jack probably has almost super-human gaydar.  My point on the other thread was/is that he pegged Ennis of all people.  And, he figured Randall out and really attracted Randall with a few bats of his eyelashes across the dinner table.  Interestingly, Jack's most successful moments, capitalizing on his gaydar, happen in silence.  Randall is attracted to Jack (and Jack notices this) in a situation when they cannot openly discuss the chemistry that's going back and forth between them.  The attraction is established before the chat on the bench (in my opinion).  And, Jack's greatest success in wooing a male lover is clearly Ennis... and again all the initial moments of attraction happen in silence.  The one exception might be the "I ain't had the opportunity" chat (where Jack might actually be picking up on an overt verbal clue... but that's clearly opent to debate).  And then the question becomes, was Jimbo really gay and just super closeted out of fear of the environment/ bartender? 

Here again, I think we see things from directly opposite directions. I'll repeat my comment from the "Randall is" thread that Jack had a month of living in isolation with Ennis before he made his move. This is not to deny that he still took a risk, but I think after living with someone for a month, getting closer to him emotionally, it takes less gaydar to make that move than it would have if, for example, Jack tried something their first night alone on the mountain. And I think it's illogical, anyway, to think that someone who was raised when and where Jack was raised would have "almost super-human gaydar."

In the case of Randall, I don't think we really know who attracted whom, first. That flirtation is already running full throttle when we see the Twists and the Malones at that table at the dinner dance. Personally I've always assumed that Randall made the first move, based on Randall being the one to suggest that they spend a weekend at his boss's fishing cabin some time. We also haven't had any indication that Jack has gone hunting on home turf yet.

BTW, Mikaela has the quote from the 2004 script almost exactly correct: "You may be a sinner, but Alma ain't yet given me the opportunity."

[serious crayons]

Jeff, I agree with you. (Amazing, hunh? ) I also don't think either would have thought much of being looked at by the other -- that would be only natural, if you're destined to spend an entire summer living and working in isolation together.

However, I do think Ennis easily might have been attracted to Jack from the get-go. Why would that be hard to believe? As we all know, Jack is attractive. Ennis may try to supress his reaction to handsome men -- in fact, we actually see him do it later, when Jack is trying to control his horse -- but surely at some level he registers it. And yes, he is pathologically shy and socially maladroit, but finding Jack attractive may have aggrevated that. After all, later in the movie Ennis seems taciturn but not inordinately shy.

I'll just mention here that at one point in the development of the film (the 2004 screenplay), those guys gathered around the pool table all did turn and look at Jack, so there was, at that point, I believe an intention to convey a threat there.

Jeff, I know you weren't necessarily doing this, but sometimes I see people discussing earlier versions as if they're evidence of the filmmakers' intentions. I think we should pay attention mainly to the finished version, if only because the omission of the earlier stuff may indicate just the opposite -- that Ang et. al. decided that's NOT the message they wanted to send. Jeff, I realize you may have just been throwing the info out for the record.

Jack had a month of living in isolation with Ennis before he made his move. This is not to deny that he still took a risk, but I think after living with someone for a month, getting closer to him emotionally, it takes less gaydar to make that move than it would have if, for example, Jack tried something their first night alone on the mountain. And I think it's illogical, anyway, to think that someone who was raised when and where Jack was raised would have "almost super-human gaydar."

OK, so what events or interactions during that month would have set Jack's gaydar off? And how sure was Jack by the time he grabbed Ennis' hand?

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jeff, I agree with you. (Amazing, hunh? ) I also don't think either would have thought much of being looked at by the other -- that would be only natural, if you're destined to spend an entire summer living and working in isolation together.

However, I do think Ennis easily might have been attracted to Jack from the get-go. Why would that be hard to believe? As we all know, Jack is attractive. Ennis may try to supress his reaction to handsome men -- in fact, we actually see him do it later, when Jack is trying to control his horse -- but surely at some level he registers it. And yes, he is pathologically shy and socially maladroit, but finding Jack attractive may have aggrevated that. After all, later in the movie Ennis seems taciturn but not inordinately shy.

Yes, he might have been, but why is it so difficult to believe that he might not have been, just because of later developments? And personally I've never been convinced that Ennis's glance at Jack when he's trying to control the horse has anything to do with sexual attraction. My reading of the look on Ennis's face at that point has always been more like, "Who is this guy, anyway?" 

Jeff, I know you weren't necessarily doing this, but sometimes I see people discussing earlier versions as if they're evidence of the filmmakers' intentions.

Well, they were somebody's intention at one time. ...

I think we should pay attention mainly to the finished version, if only because the omission of the earlier stuff may indicate just the opposite -- that Ang et. al. decided that's NOT the message they wanted to send. Jeff, I realize you may have just been throwing the info out for the record.

Aren't you even the teeniest bit interested in the evolution of what we finally see?

OK, so what events or interactions during that month would have set Jack's gaydar off? And how sure was Jack by the time he grabbed Ennis' hand?

Sorry, no offense, but I'm not going to be drawn into that sort of parsing or pinpointing because, frankly, it just doesn't interest me any more.

Just for the record, though, I don't believe Jimbo is gay, I don't think we're supposed to believe he's a closet case putting on a show for the bartender and the other guys, and I think there is supposed to be an implied threat in Jimbo talking to the guys around the pool table. Surely even with Ang Lee, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

[Brown Eyes]

Well, if we look at this film in very broad terms, this is a deeply, deeply romantic movie specifically about these two characters (the other people, as poignant as they may be end up being peripheral).  I don't think that it's too hard to imagine that Lee is trying to convey an extremely unconventional "love at first sight" moment between Ennis and Jack.  And yes, in many ways this is latent love at first sight.  But, I think the initial fascination is there (even for Ennis). 

I do agree, Jeff, that Jack is posing against his truck in order to attract Ennis's attention... but he does this because he's aware that Ennis is looking.

And, back to tiny details that add clues to hidden meanings in scenes...  I think there's strong evidence in the bar scene when Jack and Ennis are getting to know one another after the meeting with Aguirre that Ennis is totally smitten with Jack.  The darts behind Ennis's head seem like cowboy-versions of cupid's arrows (all pointing towards Ennis from Jack's direction) and Jack is literally sitting in a ray of sunshine. 

The parallels/ contrasts between this scene with Jack and Ennis in the bar compared to Jack and Jimbo is very interesting.  Jimbo and Jack are position in the same way that Ennis and Jack are in the early bar scene.  The amount of pressure in the two scenes is palpable.  The conversation between Ennis and Jack seems comfortable and not forced (and any pretext of flirting is so subtle as to be almost un-noticeable).  While, the conversation between Jimbo and Jack is loaded with the pressures of an overt "pick-up." 

All the old discussions about when Ennis was attracted to Jack and the more controvesial threads about whether Ennis was really gay are all from old imdb days (and are in the archive)... most of those conversations dealt with these opening sequences and the issue of gaydar (in more or less explicit terms).

[serious crayons]

OK, OK, I take it back, you've convinced me, Jeff, I don't agree with you. 

Re Ennis' initial attraction to Jack:

Yes, he might have been, but why is it so difficult to believe that he might not have been, just because of later developments?

Um, seems like it was ME who said "Ennis easily might have been attracted to Jack" (emphasis added) and YOU who said, "Ennis being immediately attracted to Jack? ... No, I don't buy that" (emphasis added). So who's the one finding the other position "difficult to believe"? I see no reason to definitively state that Ennis was NOT attracted to Jack -- we don't know for sure, but my argument was, again, that he might have been. After all, as you know, many people are!

And personally I've never been convinced that Ennis's glance at Jack when he's trying to control the horse has anything to do with sexual attraction. My reading of the look on Ennis's face at that point has always been more like, "Who is this guy, anyway?" 

OK. But just in case there's any confusion, the glance I'm talking about is not the one before they go up on the mountain (when, I fully agree, he does give a "who is this guy?" look), but the one later, when they've been up there a while and Ennis is straightening up dishes and Jack's horse is jumping around. Jack looks embarassed and then gets the horse under control and turns around and heads off toward the sheep. Ennis watches him go, then he leans way out to watch Jack as he recedes into the forest, then a split second later visibly catches himself and turns back to the dishes.

Aren't you even the teeniest bit interested in the evolution of what we finally see?

Sure! I didn't say it wasn't interesting. All I'm saying is that evolution isn't the same as outcome, and I prefer to analyze the finished product. I sure as hell wouldn't want people to judge MY writing on the basis of my first -- or fourth, or sixth -- draft.

Sorry, no offense, but I'm not going to be drawn into that sort of parsing or pinpointing because, frankly, it just doesn't interest me any more.

Fine, no offense taken. Nobody's here to draw you into anything you don't want to do -- I was just being conversational. But, if I may ask, why are you on this thread in the first place? Isn't that sort of parsing or pinpointing the whole point of this discussion?

Just for the record, though, I don't believe Jimbo is gay, I don't think we're supposed to believe he's a closet case putting on a show for the bartender and the other guys, and I think there is supposed to be an implied threat in Jimbo talking to the guys around the pool table. Surely even with Ang Lee, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

Of course. The thing is, we all don't always agree on what's a cigar and what's not. And there's room here for all opinions. This is one case that seems like it could very well be a non-cigar -- that is, more than meets the eye at first. And there's no point in invoking Occam's Razor; as far as I can tell, either explanation seems, at the very least, equally within the realm of possibility.

So the guys around the pool table represent an implied threat? Very possible! Most of us interpreted it that way, at least at some point. And I think that's intended -- they DO look threatening. But why don't any of them actually look at Jack?

[Jeff Wrangler]

OK. But just in case there's any confusion, the glance I'm talking about is not the one before they go up on the mountain (when, I fully agree, he does give a "who is this guy?" look), but the one later, when they've been up there a while and Ennis is straightening up dishes and Jack's horse is jumping around. Jack looks embarassed and then gets the horse under control and turns around and heads off toward the sheep. Ennis watches him go, then he leans way out to watch Jack as he recedes into the forest, then a split second later visibly catches himself and turns back to the dishes.

Sorry about that! Wrong "looking at Jack" scene on my part!

But, if I may ask, why are you on this thread in the first place? Isn't that sort of parsing or pinpointing the whole point of this discussion?

Is it? I thought the point was Jack and Ennis's gaydar, if any? If you want to try to identify specific instances, that's fine. I'm just not interested in doing that sort of close examining any more.

[serious crayons]

Is it? I thought the point was Jack and Ennis's gaydar, if any? If you want to try to identify specific instances, that's fine. I'm just not interested in doing that sort of close examining any more.

OK. To me, identification of specific instances -- in this case, of Jack and Ennis' gaydar, if any -- seem sort of the bread and butter of threads like this. But clearly you see the threads in a different way, and prefer different kinds of conversations. That's just fine. I don't think anyone wants to draw you into anything you're not interested in doing. All discussions here are completely optional! And we're interested in whatever you feel you DO want to contribute.

 

[Rayn]

....when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?  Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?  As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?  When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?

I think Jack was very aware of himself from the GITGO!  Note when they first met.  Jack practically stared Ennis down like a coyote scoping out a hen house!  He sized him up, kept checking him out, watched in the mirror when he was shaving.  He felt an attraction for Ennis right away and didn’t mind it.  Jack didn't have a problem with his sexuality and pretty much accepted himself as he was.

 Ennis, on the other hand didn't have much of a clue.  His was a journey of self discovery and Jack opened a whole huge adventurous sexual and emotional territory to him, led him in to it and did all he could to keep him there because, he loved Ennis. 

 I see Jack as rather unafraid to love whereas Ennis had "ideas and notions" of what love was "suppose to be", but Ennis didn't understand true love, didn't understand his emotions all that well.  That's why he couldn't make the best choice for himself when Jack asked him to live with him.  He should have said yes to Jack, but he couldn’t.  He just didn't get it and was too afraid because of the trauma of his childhood and fear of abandonment. 

Rayn

[ednbarby]

I agree with you, Rayn.  And I think that Jack decided to take a chance the first time they were together in the tent because he figured that Ennis and he were close enough as friends that if it turned out Ennis wasn't the least bit interested, he'd most likely not kick his ass.  Yes, it was a big chance to take, for sure.  But considering they were all alone on the mountain (or so they thought) and he'd have thought no one would ever have to know about his failed attempt were that the case but the two of them, it was a chance worth taking.

[Brown Eyes]

I think Jack was very aware of himself from the GITGO!  Note when they first met.  Jack practically stared Ennis down like a coyote scoping out a hen house!  He sized him up, kept checking him out, watched in the mirror when he was shaving. 

Well, thinking of the "GITGO"... I totally agree.  And, this long enigmatic opening meeting just must be significant.  Lee dwells on this interaction for so long... you know every nuance must be important. 

I think this is all about testing each audience member's viewpoint.  There are a number of different ways to read/interpret each look, pose, foot-shuffle, etc. and the reading probably reflects right back onto the audience member and how they want to see the scene or how they're predisposed to see the scene. 

[serious crayons]

And, this long enigmatic opening meeting just must be significant.  Lee dwells on this interaction for so long... you know every nuance must be important. 

Good point. If only because this scene is about five times as long as scenes you'd think would be far more significant, there must be more going on here than two guys waiting to get hired for a job.

[dly64]

We've talked about how Jack seems to recognize and accept his sexuality right from the beginning of the movie. And we've debated various ideas about when Ennis recognizes his own, and when he accepts it -- if ever.

But when did Jack begin to think Ennis might be gay, and vise versa?

Did Jack have reason to believe in advance that Ennis would be receptive when he made his move in the tent? Obviously he knew Ennis liked him, but did he have a clue that Ennis liked him that way?

As for Ennis, did it occur to him to wonder about Jack's sexuality before the FNIT? When he jumps up in the tent, he looks surprised, but maybe not that surprised. Did he perhaps already register something subconsciously?

When Ennis tells Jack he ain't had the opportunity to sin, and Jack goes "Hmmmmm!" in response, as if to say, "Well, we'll have to do something about that!" were they openly flirting, or unconsciously flirting, or not flirting at all, or what?

This, my friend, is a good thread (figures I would find you behind this, latjoreme   )

The whole, "You may be a sinner ...." speech has about a million different interpretations. This is how I see it (okay, guys! Whip me upside of the head if you think I am too far off base) ... I think Ennis is a virgin at that point. Could be wrong, that is just my gut feeling. What I do believe is that neither one of them had sex with another man before that night. (another point of discentiion between Brokies).

I think there was a lot of subtle flirting before that night. IMO, however, neither of them would have acted on it had they not been drinking ... which, of course, lowered their inhabitions.

Now, don't get me started on the whole Randall thing .... I'll save that for a later conversation.

[Jeff Wrangler]

The whole, "You may be a sinner ...." speech has about a million different interpretations. This is how I see it (okay, guys! Whip me upside of the head if you think I am too far off base) ... I think Ennis is a virgin at that point. Could be wrong, that is just my gut feeling. What I do believe is that neither one of them had sex with another man before that night. (another point of discentiion between Brokies).

I agree with you that Ennis is a virgin at that point. And I think we are to understand that he's a virgin. I think that's why a change was made from the 2004 screenplay. In "2004," Ennis says that Alma hasn't yet given him the opportunity. That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.

I wish we had more evidence to go on for Jack, although presumably he wasn't alone on that mountain the previous summer. ...

[dly64]

I agree with you that Ennis is a virgin at that point. And I think we are to understand that he's a virgin. I think that's why a change was made from the 2004 screenplay. In "2004," Ennis says that Alma hasn't yet given him the opportunity. That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.

I wish we had more evidence to go on for Jack, although presumably he wasn't alone on that mountain the previous summer....

That's true, and I've thought about that. However, I think he was just as shocked about it as Ennis (IMO). However, by the end of his life, he obviously accepted that he was gay. Ennis never did.

[Ellemeno]

I feel confused by the thoughts in my head.  

Jack was not direct - he reached around behind himself to a drunk, sleeping Ennis to pull Ennis's hand to his own penis.  That doesn't show as much confidence as if he had, say, arrived into camp one morning and walked up to Ennis and kissed him on the lips in sober daylight.

But then, when Ennis feels his hand on Jack's penis, even though he first jumps back within a few moments, he (Ennis) takes it much further.  I think most of us would agree that on the spectrum of sexual activity, a penis in an @$$hole trumps a hand on a penis.  

[fernly]

I wish we had more evidence to go on for Jack, although presumably he wasn't alone on that mountain the previous summer. ...

There's one line in the story that implies maybe Jack was alone the previous summer, or at least that if he wasn't, there wasn't much of any kind of anything going on with the other sheepherder:
"each glad to have a companion where none had been expected."

[Midnight24]

I was at first confused about how Jack was coming onto Ennis without really knowing how he was going to react, but before the first tent scene I've noticed that after watching it a few times there are small hints of flirting and hints of what might happen. I think some parts show that Jack is a little gay before the first tent scene, but I really don't know how he figured it would be alright to come onto Ennis in that tent that night. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

There's one line in the story that implies maybe Jack was alone the previous summer, or at least that if he wasn't, there wasn't much of any kind of anything going on with the other sheepherder:
"each glad to have a companion where none had been expected."

That's a good point, Fern, and I admit it slipped my mind previously. I've kind of explained that line to myself as meaning that they were both pleased to be paired up with another guy of the same age who turned out to be fun to hang out with, a real, well, companion--I'm thinking in particular of Annie's description of the night Ennis simply had so much fun hanging around the fire with Jack, talking and drinking, that he thought he could paw the white out of the moon. Maybe the year before Jack had been paired with some cranky old Basque who had nothing in common with an 18-year-old ranch kid, so even before he fell in love with Ennis, he could have been mighty happy to be working with a guy his own age, from a similar background.

As for much of Film Ennis's behavior in those early scenes at Aguirre's office, for myself, without any really good evidence to fall back on, I just chalk it up to Ennis's being shy. I've said that before. Again, nothing I can really point to as "proof" that Ennis is shy, it's just one shy person (me) thinking he recognizes another.

[dly64]

I don't kniow if Jack was picked up one night by a sailor, or spent a month with a man cremating sheep (as in my story), or had a friend at home, but he sure ain't no virgin. There are about 50 signs before the first tent scene that he is after Ennis...if I have to enumerate them, I will.

To compare Jack's initial action in the first tent scene with Ennis's FIVE MINUTES LATER is ridiculous. All this time, Jack has been workng very hard.

Not only is Ennis a virgin, he has no sense of sex. This is of course pretty rare for a 19-year-old boy. (It may have to do with what his father did to him when he was 9, probably so, since he seems perefectly healthy sesually later; probably his shyness is part of the same package.)  Jack realiazes this, and that making Ennis feel like his friend isn't going to move Ennis into sexuality. Ennis could spend the whole summer sitting around yakking with jack, perfectly happy. It isn't an accident that Ennis is three times as drunk as Jack the night of the first tent scene. Something has to be done.

Jack's work is never doine,..until he dies. That finally does it...yeah, great timing.

Well, that's my take.

I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree with everything you have said.

In the short story .... "each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ... I agree with Jeff_Wrangler's response:

I've kind of explained that line to myself as meaning that they were both pleased to be paired up with another guy of the same age who turned out to be fun to hang out with, a real, well, companion--I'm thinking in particular of Annie's description of the night Ennis simply had so much fun hanging around the fire with Jack, talking and drinking, that he thought he could paw the white out of the moon. Maybe the year before Jack had been paired with some cranky old Basque who had nothing in common with an 18-year-old ranch kid, so even before he fell in love with Ennis, he could have been mighty happy to be working with a guy his own age, from a similar background.

I don't think either one of them saw themselves as gay (while up on BBM). In an interview with Jake Gyllenhaal, he says: (I am the queen of quotes ... it is one of my many faux pas ... so bear with me):

"And this movie was like, it has no bounds. Like, these aren't, in my belief, these aren't two, like gay guys. These are two people who fall in love. And, you know, from the environment that they're in, which is incredibly lonely, and, you know, they find each other."

http://www.abc.net.au/atthemovies/txt/s1459509.htm

In another interview:

... Your character is quite gregarious, especially compared to Heath's character, Ennis.

"Yeah. I think there's a part of him that wants to progress and wants to change and wants things to move forward, and is constantly kind of pushing Ennis to come out of his shell. But it's that dance between the two of them that I think makes the two of them fall in love."

http://movies.radiofree.com/interviews/brokebac_jake_gyllenhaal.shtml

As for Ennis having no sense of sex, I heartedly disagree. Ennis knew what he was doing FNIT. The short story says that "no manual was needed." Yes, Ennis was a virgin, Jack was not. However, IMO, it was both Ennis' and Jack's first time with a man. I think that if they both would have been sober this would have never happened. Both of their inhabitions were down.

Lastly, (I swear ....  ) here is part of an interview from Heath that talks about the FNIT et.al.:

Question: How did you prepare on an emotional level for the big tent scene?

Heath Ledger: The way we looked it and the way it is is that there are not actually love scenes for the sake of doing a love scene. There are actually stories within each of those moments. The first moment for Ennis was very poignant because it had to be rough; it had to be fighting. He was almost ready to punch him. Once that all settled it had to be this innate passionate adrenaline. It just takes over him. There's another moment in the tent where it was really important to show a glimpse of Ennis in a vulnerable state. It is true intimate love they have for each other. It has to set up the tragedy for the story. It set up the freedom of Brokeback Mountain.

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news05/brokeback1.php

So, to make a short comment long, IMO, neither of them expected to find this kind of relationship on BBM, but they did. It was a surprise to them as well as to the audience.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Diane,

(I am the queen of quotes ... it is one of my many faux pas ... so bear with me):

Don't apologize for the quotes, "little darlin'." I envy you your ability to track down these things. 

Jeff

[twistedude]

Pardon me all to hell for being all wrong. You did not consider ONE POINT I made...
I'll repeat the most salient: you cannot use something in the book to override something in the movie; they are two separate animals.

Anohter thing: they are not just two guys who fall in love, they are two gay gays that fall in love. There just doesn't happen to be any difference between straight guys and gay guys, that's all...not that there's anything wrong with that.

Is there some particular reason why you are talking to me like a hole-in-the ground? because I've seen the movie 27 times/ Have a fullscreen DVD?/ Have read the story about 50 times? have written about 30,000 words of fanrfictuion/, which has been read by over 2300 people since May 3?  Or did I just express myself likie an idiot?

Oh yeah, I know the words don';t go with my avitar, but I liked the words, and have never seen the picture that went with them. That's of course the "It's nobody's busniess by ours" one, but I likie "Me neither" better. Jack is a great liar., he got it from his mother (have you met his father?)

[dly64]

Pardon me all to hell for being all wrong. You did not consider ONE POINT I made...
I'll repeat the most salient: you cannot use something in the book to override something in the movie; they are two separate animals.

Anohter thing: they are not just two guys who fall in love, they are two gay gays that fall in love. There just doesn't happen to be any difference between straight guys and gay guys, that's all...not that there's anything wrong with that.

Is there some particular reason why you are talking to me like a hole-in-the ground? because I've seen the movie 27 times/ Have a fullscreen DVD?/ Have read the story about 50 times? have written about 30,000 words of fanrfictuion/, which has been read by over 2300 people since May 3?  Or did I just express myself likie an idiot?

Oh yeah, I know the words don';t go with my avitar, but I liked the words, and have never seen the picture that went with them. That's of course the "It's nobody's busniess by ours" one, but I likie "Me neither" better. Jack is a great liar., he got it from his mother (have you met his father?)

If, for some reason, I came off like a know-it-all snob, I regret that. That certainly was not my intention. I am a debater. I enjoy debating (or making an arguement) ... does that make me right? Absolutely not. Don't we have one main thing in common? We all love this film. We love this story. We feel passionate about Jack and Ennis. We want to talk with others about it and share opinions. I agree that the film is a different animal than the screenplay and the short story. However, both can be helpful in understanding the motivation of each of the characters.
 
Again, if I have offended you, that was not my intent. I was just arguing my point of view. That's it. I am sorry if it came off any other way.

[David In Indy]

It doesn't surprise me that Jack could pick out Ennis. I can spot a gay man at 500 paces. Most gay people can. The problem is, my gaydar doesn't filter out closet cases.

Maybe I need to get an upgrade!

[dly64]

Sorry for getting mad. I've always thought it funny that film critics write THEIR view of films without acknowledging that others will have a different view because they are others.

True .... I do find some of what they say to be helpful ...  albeit they are certainly not the end all and be all of any given point of view.

OT - are you from Germany? Just curious ... I have a soft spot in my heart for Germany (and Switzerland) ... my ancestors are from there. They migrated to the US in the 1800's. BTW, you should also supply the link to your poem sites. There are some really beautiful writings in there. 

[twistedude]

I wonder if our opinions about Jack and Ennis's initial feelings have something to do with our own intitial sex exdperiences...they certainly do mine. Until I was 15, whatever sexual feelings I had were sublimated, or expressed themselves in a nameless restlessness (I'm thinking Ennis), and I had no idea why adults engaged in this ridiculous exercise until someone...showed me (again, at 15). So, of course, to me Ennis's "you may be a sinner but I ain't yet had the opportunity" seems like a completely non-gay comment (however it may have been changed since script 4--i only have Jan. 2003 and the present film screenplay). Ennis was innocent, because..i was innocent. Anyone else?

If you stand, then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way, I would take you home.

[dly64]

I wonder if our opinions about Jack and Ennis's initial feelings have something to do with our own intitial sex exdperiences...they certainly do mine. Until I was 15, whatever sexual feelings I had were sublimated, or expressed themselves in a nameless restlessness (I'm thinking Ennis), and I had no idea why adults engaged in this ridiculous exercise until someone...showed me (again, at 15). So, of course, to me Ennis's "you may be a sinner but I ain't yet had the opportunity" seems like a completely non-gay comment (however it may have been changed since script 4--i only have Jan. 2003 and the present film screenplay). Ennis was innocent, because..i was innocent. Anyone else?

I have always thought of the "sinner" dialogue as Ennis' eluding to his virginity … more specifically, his heterosexual virginity. IMO, Ennis had homosexual thoughts and desires. But I certainly don’t think that he expected what happened in TS1. So to make a short comment long …. I think we are saying something similar. Am I understanding you correctly? (i.e. this was not a homosexual comment).

As for our own sexual experiences coloring our opinions about Jack and Ennis .... I completely agree.

[Brown Eyes]

bump!

[brokebackjack]

all I found was the thread and have not read a post yet---but if that opening scene wasn't gaydar I do not KNOW what gaydar is!!!!!

[Brown Eyes]

I'm sort of wondering about one of the first lines out of Jack's mouth lately.  "Nice to know you" seems like a very every-day type of phrase.  A good-humored and casual way of greeting Ennis.  But could it imply more from the very beginning here?  Could this be more like Jack saying that he "knows' Ennis in that he immediately can sense a kindred spirit?  Or already "knows" or has a hunch (at least) that Ennis might be like he is?  There's a famous old (wonderful) essay by E.M. Forster that subtly seems to be about (in places) the ability of gay people to recognize one another "when they meet". 

[brokebackjack]

It's possible Amanda---there was a script which had Jack--in the scene directly after Aguirre's office, in the bar--described as a RODEO HUSTLER <!!!yeah, I know!!! Isn't that insane?!?!? >.

Jack was not a virgin re male sex, that was pretty apparent, so maybe it was gaydar. I tend to think it was more like instant attraction, as evidenced by the HOLY SHIT he mouths under his hat after seeing Ennis for the first time. I related to that Holy Shit, it's exactly what I mumbled when meeting the guy I fell in love with. [ He and I were walking down West 8th Street a couple of days later at what, something like 3 Am>>> when a complete  lunatic wandered into our path claiming he was Louis Of France. This fellow took his clothes off and I fell on his jockstrap  as he ran naked down a Manhattan street yelling Le Guillotine, Le Guillotine! We both had LMAO-hysterics. Anyhow, that's when my stunned Holy Shit turned into love: it takes what it takes ROFLMAO]

IMO we DID get the best script, and IMHO all the ridiculous things like Jack as a RODEO HUSTLER <!!!!!!! jesus, help me!!!!>were put in by Shamus and taken out by Diana, which is why they had to shoot his hippy scene even after Ang, Diana, HL and JG knew  it wasn't going to be in the actual film.

They spent a week shooting a scene they KNEW wasn't going to be used: think about it.

I think we can infer placating him from this lol, i.e., shooting the scene because they took out almost all his dumbassed additions and then editing even the hippy scene  out...

[chelseagirl]

Would anyone d say that Randall's "gaydar" was working, on that night with Jack?

[brokebackjack]

yes
i think it was

[chelseagirl]

Jack looked unsettled at the table, with Randall glances, discontented Lureen, motormouth La Shawn, he picked the lesser of the three evils, dancing with La Shawn. 

But the thought of starting a relationship with someone who approached him, must have been dizzying to Jack, when Randall approached him later.  Ennis must have come to his mind, and maybe Mexico just wasn't enough.

[loneleeb3]

All I want to know Is how do you know if you have gaydar and is there an instruction manual?

I was like Ennis. My one and only experience took me by surprise. I didn't see it coming until his lips were planted on mine then I didn't know what to do!
Still don't! 

[RossInIllinois]

All I want to know Is how do you know if you have gaydar and is there an instruction manual?

I was like Ennis. My one and only experience took me by surprise. I didn't see it coming until his lips were planted on mine then I didn't know what to do!
Still don't! 

hehehe Oh I know the feeling 

[loneleeb3]

How do you know the difference between gaydar and wishful thinking?

[brokebackjack]

You know the difference because.

lol

because!!

[moremojo]

Lee, personally I don't know the difference between gaydar and wishful thinking, which is why I have learned to make no assumptions about sexual orientation and let it be revealed by the other person themselves in some unambiguous way. Placing myself in contexts in which it is reasonable to assume that many others around me are also gay or bi, such as in a gay bar or bookstore, is about the only way I know of to interact with others and not fear that I'm barking up the wrong tree.

[nic]

Does gaydar just mean knowing someone is gay, or does is mean detecting they are gay and attracted to you (if you are gay too)?

[Scott6373]

Does gaydar just mean knowing someone is gay, or does is mean detecting they are gay and attracted to you (if you are gay too)?

"Gaydar" is a social myth...an urban legend so to speak.  Since the prime driving force in humans is self-preservation and reproduction, "gaydar" really boils down to the same intuition that heterosexual people have when they meet someone who represents a potential mate.

[moremojo]

"Gaydar" is a social myth...an urban legend so to speak.  Since the prime driving force in humans is self-preservation and reproduction, "gaydar" really boils down to the same intuition that heterosexual people have when they meet someone who represents a potential mate.

I'm not so sure if it's really so simple. I once worked with a woman (straight) who had exemplary "gaydar" (meaning she could sense the homosexuality of others). Within a few moments of talking to someone, she would get a strong sense of whether that person was or wasn't, and more times than not she would be proved right. She said she knew about me within seconds of meeting me, and also picked up on my friend, who worked in the same place as us at that time.

[loneleeb3]

I'm not so sure if it's really so simple. I once worked with a woman (straight) who had exemplary "gaydar" (meaning she could sense the homosexuality of others). Within a few moments of talking to someone, she would get a strong sense of whether that person was or wasn't, and more times than not she would be proved right. She said she knew about me within seconds of meeting me, and also picked up on my friend, who worked in the same place as us at that time.

maybe she was a physic?

[moremojo]

maybe she was a physic?

I wonder about that myself! Her intuition was certainly uncanny. I know she had had a near-death experience many years before, and had a very spiritual outlook on people and life. I lost touch with her some time ago, and miss her.

[loneleeb3]

I wonder about that myself! Her intuition was certainly uncanny. I know she had had a near-death experience many years before, and had a very spiritual outlook on people and life. I lost touch with her some time ago, and miss her.

Well, thats too bad that you have lost touch.
Would have been cool to rent her out and help the love lorn find true love!

[moremojo]

Would have been cool to rent her out and help the love lorn find true love!

Dang--missed opportunites all over the place!

[serious crayons]

Years ago, I went out to dinner with three other people, two identical twin brothers and their sister. One twin was straight and the other was gay. The gay twin had not come out to his family, but everyone in the family figured he was gay. They were pretty dysfunctional and no one ever talked about it.

So the waiter comes to the table and almost immediately starts openly flirting with the gay twin. The flirting continued throughout dinner, and was so extreme that we all remarked on it. The twin got very uncomfortable because he was being so obviously being singled out (from his identical twin, yet!), and didn't want his siblings to guess why, though everybody at the table knew.

That was the most amazing demonstration of gaydar I've seen.

[LauraGigs]

OMG Katherine, what a great story!

Sounds like that waiter would be a good Rent-A-Gaydar too!

[brokebackjack]

I don't believe gaydar is an urban myth at all.

Jack and Randall KNEW, it was completely obvious.

I know many many guys who can look around a room and say, gay, gay, gay, straight, straight, straight, closeted, gay, straight...etc.

They are almost universally correct. Me, I can pick up on the vibe. Sometimes it takes speaking with someone a bit--there is a cowboy with manure on his boots out here [lol], the real deal. Nobody would ever think was gay unless he told you, yet I picked it up the second we said hello  in the  Wyoming pasture where  he was feeding cattle. It's a 'vibe'.

Perhaps Scott is right--the sex drive has us pick up potential mates. It's quite possible, which would explain gaydar logically. We pick up on the 'mating ability' roflmao.

I'm wondering if that might be it because I'm bi and have  had this talent where I could tell instantly if a woman was menstruating. I never looked for or developed such a talent it was and is simply THERE. I had a friend who could do the same thing, and yes, we sometimes DID ask if we knew the girl would not get offended. We were never wrong. By the way, he was completely straight and the most successfull 'stud' I have ever known lol.

The guy I fell in love with, the first time we set eyes on each other it was a mutual HOLLLY SHEEEIIT!!! moment if there ever was one. I knew there was something there even though nobody else did. He knew there was something in me. neither of us thought the other gay. After shaking hands--there was literally a static charge,   a visible spark! -- I knew he wasn't gay at all but wondered if he was bi or might possibly be deeply closeted. He wondered the same. He turned around, not a word, and I KNEW he was bi. Vice-versa held true as well.

We just knew.

That potential mate idea of Scott's may well be it. Any thoughts?

[nic]

Could be something to do with pheromones given off?  Some people can more consciously translate detection of them into what they mean?  I've never heard of gay/straight/bi people giving off different pheromones though, only different genders.   

Btw, fascinating to hear views & experiences even if we can't work it out!

[serious crayons]

Could be something to do with pheromones given off?  Some people can more consciously translate detection of them into what they mean?  I've never heard of gay/straight/bi people giving off different pheromones though, only different genders.   

I think that makes a lot of sense. Body chemistry is complicated. If pheromones do indicate sexual orientation, researchers probably just haven't figured it out yet.

[Front-Ranger]

Am I missing something? It's that little sparkle of sexual attraction that's in the eyes. Does there need to be more?? I think anybody sitting on a log in between Jack and Ennis observing the scene would have said, yup, they're gay, after two microseconds!!

[moremojo]

But Lee, I've seen sparkle in lots of guys' eyes, along with wonderful smiles and warm, welcoming natures, and have learned that the fellow that I thought just might be flirting with me (or perhaps complicitly acknowledging that 'family' connection) was a full-throttle straight who had never and almost certainly would never imagine themselves intimate with another male. Now, most of these fellows were also not homophobic (at least not in a virulent way), but I have learned that I have tendency to misinterpret men's friendliness as a sign of something that it's not. (You can see the dilemma I face in navigating the sometimes perilous waters of male-to-male interaction).

Jack might actually have been one of those blessed with excellent gaydar. This might account for his willingness to risk his quite bold move on Ennis in the first tent scene, as well as, perhaps, his relative comfort in approaching Jimbo (he might have sensed something in Jimbo of which that rodeo clown might not even have been aware himself).

[serious crayons]

Hell, that little sparkle of sexual attraction is hard enough to interpret correctly even if you've got the orientation right. How many times have I misread that! 

[nic]

Ditto the above.  I have a colleague I can't look in the eyes cos I'm not sure if they are showing that sparkle or just a general sparkle.

There could be more to this gaydar than meets the eye, literally!

[brokebackjack]

I really dunno, but it does exist. That cowpoke i mentioned a few weeks ago is a prime example, there is nothing gay about him at all. My wife was astonished when she found out, but gay he is.