Author Topic: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault  (Read 71185 times)

Offline ednbarby

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Well, a day (or two) late and a dollar short, the perfect name for this thread hit me just now out of the clear blue sky.  "You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault."

I never was good at coming up with clever stuff in a timely manner.  My life is a series of conversations I wish I could do over much more wittily.
No more beans!

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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I was hoping to hear your opinion!

I never disappoint!    :laugh:


I'm not sure about the next section of your post.  You agreed with some of a quote of mine (blue), and so I assume you don't agree with the rest.  And you quoted some quotes from Lee, McMurtry, and Ossana after this, so I'm wondering whether they have relevance to your not agreeing with the un-highlighted part of my quote.  But I'm not sure.

As much as I find the films' creators' statements to be interesting, one thing I have noticed is that they all say different things about the same thing at different times.  For example, the comments about Cassie are from one perspective from one of them in one interview.  I've read interviews where they each give totally different explanations about Cassie -- explanations that are different from each other at the time, and statements that are different from their own words in other interviews.  I do not believe this to be an inconsistency on their parts.  I find it to be strong support for the assertion that the film has so many levels and layers.  Each time any one of them answers the same question in different interviews, the answers given are slightly different.  At that moment, they are looking at it from this angle or that angle.

As an even better example, I'll look at one of the quotes you gave:

Quote
Ossana: Itís the first time in the film that he doesnít disappoint someone, male or female.

Here, the object of her comment is more this particular scene than the film as a whole.  She's giving emphasis to the import of what Ennis has done in this scene.  How do we know this?  Because taking the statement as a statement of Ennis' character throughout the film, it's not a true statement.  At the SNIT scene, Jack waited in the tent to see what Ennis would do.  Jack did not know whether Ennis would come in or ride off to be with the sheep.  He was hopin', of course, but he didnít know.  So Jack had a hope.  He hoped that Ennis would come into the tent.  And what did Ennis do?  He came into the tent.  In other words, he did not disappoint Jack, a male.  So we have an example where Ennis did not disappoint someone, male or female, way back in the first 45 minutes or so of the film.

(And of course there are other examples... he didn't disappoint Jack in the elk shoot scene (Jack wanted other food and Ennis provided)... he didn't disappoint Alma on their wedding day (she wanted to get married and he showed up)... he didn't disappoint society on that day either (he did what was expected of him)... he didn't disappoint his boss when he hurried the girls to Alma at the store so that he could go to work... he didnít disappoint Jack at the first reunion scene -- in fact, he probably gave Jack a lot more than Jack was expecting, maybe even hoping for at that moment... he didn't disappoint his girls by showing up for Thanksgiving dinner... he must not have disappointed Cassie for quite a while during their relationship -- she certainly would have liked it to have continued ---- so Ossana's comment cannot be taken as a final, definitive statement about Ennis' character.  She's just trying to give weight to the fact that we know Ennis did disappoint a lot of people a lot of the time and that here he didnít disappoint Jr.)

You see what I'm getting at?  Just because they describe a particular scene or character in one way at one interview, it doesnít mean that that's a final and definitive answer for all time.  Itís just one of them giving one of many perceptions that each one has about something.

I'm not even sure if it was necessary to point this out, because, to be honest, I really didnít understand where you were going with your message at that point.  And I take this as my failing.  I could just as easily have called myself "ruthlessly stupid!"   :laugh:


Quote
I just have the belief, however, that he did not see himself as gay, period.

Yes.  I agree with this.  I think part of it has to do with how Ennis defines "queer."  Obviously we canít ask Ennis to define "queer," and even if we did, he'd probably say "Huh, what?"  But from some of his statements, I get the feeling that he understands "queer" as a bad thing, an unnatural thing, and maybe most importantly, a non-love thing.  This is why I believe he has such a disconnect in his mind between what he does and what he is.


Quote
What I find interesting is that when  Ennis goes up to Jack's room, and he opens the window .... IMO, it symbolizes the opening of himself to Jack. Jack's closet door was open, but the shirts were (partially) hidden. I think that illustrates two things: 1) that Jack was more open to his own sexuality (i.e. that he was gay), but 2) he kept his relationship with Ennis hidden, private and cherished.

The shirts in Ennis' closet represent his love for Jack. It, too, is kept hidden, private and cherished. But he closes the closet door. IMO, he is accepting his love for Jack, but he keeps, even to himself, his sexuality "in the closet".

This works for me!


Until next time...

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Well, a day (or two) late and a dollar short, the perfect name for this thread hit me just now out of the clear blue sky.  "You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault."

OMG!  With all respect to the contest winner, JakeTwist, I have to say this one is better.

I can't give you any beans since they're already been awarded at the shindig we held at Don Wroeís cabin Ė boy, that was some weekend, huh?

But would anyone mind if I changed the thread title again?

After all, it does go that extra step in capturing the Brokeback spirit.

JakeTwist Ė do you mind?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Friend(s), I do have to share that I have always been a little disappointed that Film Ennis does have those shirts in the closet, but only because I believe Annie Proulx's text bears an interpretation that Story Ennis had those shirts hanging out in the open in his trailer.

On the other hand, Ennis having those shirts in his closet is just a continuation of what Jack had done for nearly twenty years, having those shirts hidden away in a closet.

Perhaps it would have been too big a leap forward for Film Ennis as we know him to have hung those shirts out in the open.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline dly64

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I'm not sure about the next section of your post.  You agreed with some of a quote of mine (blue), and so I assume you don't agree with the rest.  And you quoted some quotes from Lee, McMurtry, and Ossana after this, so I'm wondering whether they have relevance to your not agreeing with the un-highlighted part of my quote.  But I'm not sure.

You are correct in that assumption.

Quote
As much as I find the films' creators' statements to be interesting, one thing I have noticed is that they all say different things about the same thing at different times.  For example, the comments about Cassie are from one perspective from one of them in one interview.  I've read interviews where they each give totally different explanations about Cassie -- explanations that are different from each other at the time, and statements that are different from their own words in other interviews.  I do not believe this to be an inconsistency on their parts.  I find it to be strong support for the assertion that the film has so many levels and layers.  Each time any one of them answers the same question in different interviews, the answers given are slightly different.  At that moment, they are looking at it from this angle or that angle.

As an even better example, I'll look at one of the quotes you gave:

"Itís the first time in the film that he doesnít disappoint someone, male or female."

Here, the object of her comment is more this particular scene than the film as a whole.  She's giving emphasis to the import of what Ennis has done in this scene.  How do we know this?  Because taking the statement as a statement of Ennis' character throughout the film, it's not a true statement.  At the SNIT scene, Jack waited in the tent to see what Ennis would do.  Jack did not know whether Ennis would come in or ride off to be with the sheep.  He was hopin', of course, but he didnít know.  So Jack had a hope.  He hoped that Ennis would come into the tent.  And what did Ennis do?  He came into the tent.  In other words, he did not disappoint Jack, a male.  So we have an example where Ennis did not disappoint someone, male or female, way back in the first 45 minutes or so of the film.

(And of course there are other examples... he didn't disappoint Jack in the elk shoot scene (Jack wanted other food and Ennis provided)... he didn't disappoint Alma on their wedding day (she wanted to get married and he showed up)... he didn't disappoint society on that day either (he did what was expected of him)... he didn't disappoint his boss when he hurried the girls to Alma at the store so that he could go to work... he didnít disappoint Jack at the first reunion scene -- in fact, he probably gave Jack a lot more than Jack was expecting, maybe even hoping for at that moment... he didn't disappoint his girls by showing up for Thanksgiving dinner... he must not have disappointed Cassie for quite a while during their relationship -- she certainly would have liked it to have continued ---- so Ossana's comment cannot be taken as a final, definitive statement about Ennis' character.  She's just trying to give weight to the fact that we know Ennis did disappoint a lot of people a lot of the time and that here he didnít disappoint Jr.)

You see what I'm getting at?  Just because they describe a particular scene or character in one way at one interview, it doesnít mean that that's a final and definitive answer for all time.  Itís just one of them giving one of many perceptions that each one has about something.

That is okay ... I know many people agree with that opinion. I just go a little nutty sometimes with my quoting. (BTW, I was using the quotes to support my theory ... but it really means nothing. It's just the debater in me .... I need sources, you know!  ;))

I do disagree, however, that Diana is referring only to that moment. Ennis disappoints Jack over and over.  Here I go again ... the dictionary defines disappoint:

to fail to meet the expectation or hope of : FRUSTRATE

The reason why I used the definition is because it clearly spells out what Jack experienced. Why did he go to Mexico? Because he was disappointed and frustrated. Think of all the others ... Alma, his daughters, Cassie. He always had an excuse. I put what happened on BBM in another category because they had the freedom to be themselves without the prying eyes of the public and without societal expectations. It was post mountain that Ennis and Jack's world fell apart and reality kicked in. It's not that Ennis intended to hurt anyone, but he did just the same.

Quote
I'm not even sure if it was necessary to point this out, because, to be honest, I really didnít understand where you were going with your message at that point.  And I take this as my failing.  I could just as easily have called myself "ruthlessly stupid!"   :laugh:

No - I am the doofus here. I just got carried away with my quotes ....  :laugh: I've got to pull the reigns in.


Quote
I think part of it has to do with how Ennis defines "queer."  Obviously we canít ask Ennis to define "queer," and even if we did, he'd probably say "Huh, what?"  But from some of his statements, I get the feeling that he understands "queer" as a bad thing, an unnatural thing, and maybe most importantly, a non-love thing.  This is why I believe he has such a disconnect in his mind between what he does and what he is.

Yes, I agree. He defintely sees being "queer' as a bad thing. The memory of Earl ... that image ... is in his mind always.  I think Ennis saw his love for Jack as anomaly .... it was something he could not understand. It is interesting to note that Jack was the only man Ennis ever loved. The only man with whom he made love. He had no desire to be with anyone other than Jack (i.e. he didn't desire other men in a sexual way, IMO).

I thought of this poem which speaks of love and departing. I can see Ennis saying this as he is thinking of Jack:

A Dream within a Dream
by Edgar Allen Poe

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow-
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet, if Hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it, therefore, the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of golden sand-
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep- while I weep!
O God! can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?


There is nothing else I can say after that. It is too beautiful.

Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Perhaps it would have been too big a leap forward for Film Ennis as we know him to have hung those shirts out in the open.

Especially true when you think of just how many people must come to visit him in that trailer -- I'll bet it's just buzzin' with activity every Saturday night...

 :laugh:     ...      :'(

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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I think Ennis saw his love for Jack as anomaly .... it was something he could not understand. It is interesting to note that Jack was the only man Ennis ever loved. The only man with whom he made love. He had no desire to be with anyone other than Jack (i.e. he didn't desire other men in a sexual way, IMO).

Spot on!


Beautiful poem, too... Thank you!


 :'(




Offline welliwont

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Well, a day (or two) late and a dollar short, the perfect name for this thread hit me just now out of the clear blue sky.  "You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault."

OMG!  With all respect to the contest winner, JakeTwist, I have to say this one is better.

I can't give you any beans since they're already been awarded at the shindig we held at Don Wroeís cabin Ė boy, that was some weekend, huh?

But would anyone mind if I changed the thread title again?

JakeTwist Ė do you mind?

Well my minutes of fame are over I see.  (*sniff*)

It was nice while it lasted....  It was nice a-knowin' ya Ruthie, if that's your real name!!!    ;)

I guess I don't deserve the honour a namin' your thread, since I hardly get time enough to read it, bein' so busy with the per-formance 'n all, but jus don forget, iffen ya never even knew it in the furs place, that I was the one who steered some a them e-ducated posters to your thread-there way back in the beginnin' when it's name were no shucks.

See ya around, I guess... 

Jane

( :D ;D :laugh:)
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline ednbarby

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OMG!  With all respect to the contest winner, JakeTwist, I have to say this one is better.

I can't give you any beans since they're already been awarded at the shindig we held at Don Wroeís cabin Ė boy, that was some weekend, huh?

But would anyone mind if I changed the thread title again?

JakeTwist Ė do you mind?


Well my minutes of fame are over I see.  (*sniff*)

It was nice while it lasted....  It was nice a-knowin' ya Ruthie, if that's your real name!!!    ;)

I guess I don't deserve the honour a namin' your thread, since I hardly get time enough to read it, bein' so busy with the per-formance 'n all, but jus don forget, iffen ya never even knew it in the furs place, that I was the one who steered some a them e-ducated posters to your thread-there way back in the beginnin' when it's name were no shucks.

See ya around, I guess... 

Jane

( :D ;D :laugh:)

I think your name is perfect, too.  It's a nice call-back to "My uncle didn't die after all," and is actually more fitting in regards to the initial post and theme of this thread.

And there is such a thing as two perfect specimens of the same creature, after all.  ;)

I say yours stays, since it's the perfect one that was here first.

(And many apologies for my being the perfect asshole.   ::) :))
No more beans!

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Well my minutes of fame are over I see.  (*sniff*)

It was nice while it lasted....  It was nice a-knowin' ya Ruthie, if that's your real name!!!    ;)

I guess I don't deserve the honour a namin' your thread, since I hardly get time enough to read it, bein' so busy with the per-formance 'n all, but jus don forget, iffen ya never even knew it in the furs place, that I was the one who steered some a them e-ducated posters to your thread-there way back in the beginnin' when it's name were no shucks.

See ya around, I guess... 

Jane


Come on, Jane.  Lighten up on me.  Tell you what, we can hunt in November... kill us a nice elk... I'll try if I can get Don Wroe's cabin again.  We had a good time at the shindig, didn't we?


 :-*