Author Topic: Fun Brokeback questionnaires  (Read 12901 times)

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« on: July 06, 2006, 06:03:32 am »
MODERATOR'S NOTE: Hey everbody, this topic was split off a previous thread (which is why I'm writing an introductory note in Mikaela's post) To fill out the questionnaire:

1) Hit "quote" in the previous post.

2) Go to your new message and REMOVE the "quote" and "/quote" coding around it so it can be copied again easily by the next person, with the color coding intact.

3) Answer questions in a new color (or in a color that hasn't been used by the people immediately above you).

4) Your post, with your responses, will be deleted eventually, as others copy yours and add their own. So if you undergo a major change of opinion and want to change your answers, repeat steps 1 and 2 and make the required changes in your answers (for brevity's sake, try not to do this just for the sake of minor changes of wording).

Have fun! If so inspired, feel free to start a new questionnaire of your own.

Latjoreme/Katherine



Regarding his homosexuality, would Ennis:



-- Describe himself that way to others?

          Latjoreme -- Never.
         Ruthlessly – Agreed, never.
         Jane  -  no.
         Diane – no human way!
         Penth -- No way
        Mikaela – No, never ever. Not unless we're talking bizarro-world Ennis.


-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?

          Latjoreme -- Early on in the movie, no. By the end, probably yes.
          Ruthlessly – Early, agreed.  End, slightly, possibly, maybe... but still only with fear and self-loathing.
          Jane  -  Early on, not on your f’n life!  By the end, still no.
          Diane -  No, no, no! I don’t think he’d even consider admitting to himself he would fit into that category.
          Penth -- Early on: no. Later: probably yes, and not only after Jack's death, but even before ("You ever get the feeleng...")
          Mikaela -- Yes, eventually he would use the term "queer" to himself.




-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?

          Latjoreme -- Yes, probably, the whole time.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes he would consider that those words might apply to him.
          Diane – He might consider the possibility, but I don’t think he would allow himself to acknowledge that he might be gay.
         Penth -- Yes, from very early on.
        Mikaela – Yes, from he was nine years old.


-- Notice he's attracted to men?
          Latjoreme -- Yes, since he was a kid, though he has learned to hide or repress it.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes.
          Diane – Yes … again, I am not sure if he would admit, even to himself that he is attracted to men.
          Penth -- Yes
         Mikaela -- Yes, most certainly. One of the reasons he's so painfully shy


-- Wish he weren't?

          Latjoreme -- Sure.
          Jane  -  yes.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Penth -- yes
           Mikaela -- Yes, or the story and film would not have been the same

-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn’t?

          Ruthlessly – Absolutely
          Diane – ABOSULETLY!! No way would he even be comfortable with the fact that he was gay.
          Latjoreme -- No, I'd say more like 65%.
          Penth -- No.
          Mikaela -- Difficult one. Yes, at certain moments in his life, especially in his younger years, I think he actually managed this, to his great relief…. But over the perspective of longer time periods, the percentage was not *anywhere* near 100%.


-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a gay relationship?

          Latjoreme -- Yes, sort of.
          Jane  -  no?   yes?   :-\
          Ruthlessly – No.  No recognition – which signifies to me that it dawns on him, that he becomes aware of it.  No.
         Penth -- Difficult. Recognizes that others would call it a gay relationship, yes
     Mikaela –  I agree with Penth. He recognizes that others would call it a gay relationship. For his own conflicted self, he’d think of it as special and not easily boil it down to that simple term.

-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a “thing” that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
          Ruthlessly – Yes, 100%
          Diane – I agree with Ruthless 100% on both of these points. No way can he consider that this is a gay relationship … it is an anomaly.
          Latjoreme: No, I think deep down he knows what the correct name is, but he would never say it out loud and tries not to say it to himself.
          Penth -- this is the converse of the question above (kind of). Therefore No, because he knows how it would be called by all the world and his brother.
     Mikaela – yes and no? He will not let himself name it by it’s generally accepted name, but he does know what that name is.


-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?

          Latjoreme -- No. He tries his best to believe that, but secretly knows it's not true.
          Ruthlessly – I’m not sure if I’ve broken down the question into its intended subparts correctly.  Correct me if I’m wrong.  “Believe it’s a huge exception to the rule…” – No.  The only rules to homosexuality that he believes are that it’s wrong and equals (or deserves) death.  “Believe … that he’s not “really” gay …” – Absolutely.  He does not believe himself to be gay.  “Believe … and otherwise would be attracted only to women” – The word “otherwise” would require him to think of himself as gay, which he does not.  He may not be attracted to women sexually, but he believes that he’s supposed to be. 
          Jane  -  hunh??
          Diane – In Ennis’ mind – yes. I think he can not comprehend (or should I say consciously understand) why he loves Jack. IMO, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is. If it wouldn’t be for that, Ennis would believe that he would be living a “normal” life.
          Penth -- Probably no.
       Mikaela -- No. This is what he'd wish for, but deep down he knows he's attracted to other men.


-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Jack?

          Latjoreme -- Probably not.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  Unless someone came along and led him to it in the same way Jack did – build a friendship, build an intimacy, give Ennis his moment to let it all come bursting out, etc.
          Jane  -  maybe, if he was attracted to and picked up in the right way.
          Diane – I find it highly improbable.
          Penth -- Yes, if the other man would be Jack-like: leading him. I'm with Ruthlessly on this question
        Mikaela -- No, or at least chances are very, very slim. It would require alignment of special circumstances akin to what he and Jack had, including someone to lead him into it – and time enough alone to get comfortable.

-- Blame Jack for him (Ennis) being gay?
          Latjoreme -- Not in his sexuality. See above -- he knows he already was. Not in his behavior, either; he implies this in the lakeside scene, but he's upset.
          Ruthlessly – I dunno.  Even if Ennis recognized early on that he is attracted to men, it took Jack to bring Ennis to the point of acting on it.  So, because Ennis does not believe himself to be gay, he very well could blame Jack for bringing Ennis to the point of acting on Ennis’ attraction to other fellas.
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – as I said above, yes.
          Penth -- No
         Mikaela -- No.

-- Blame Jack for keeping him nothin and nowhere?
          Latjoreme -- Not really. Again, he's lashing out in anger. He does not actually resent Jack for the way his life has gone.
          Ruthlessly – Half and half.  Ennis knows that he’s nothin’ and nowhere because he has put his “get somewhere” and “be somebody” on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack.  Ennis knows that’s what he’s done.  But, he probably doesn’t accept responsibility for his actions; thus, he blames Jack for it.  For the simple fact that Jack was there, Ennis just couldn’t help himself.
          Jane  -  no, not Jack, but his relationship with Jack?  Yes.
          Diane – as I have stated before, yes. I think he sees the relationship as something that has somewhat derailed his life.  If not for Jack, he would probably still be married to Alma and living a blissful lie of a life.
           Penth -- Partly yes. "...because he has put his “get somewhere” and “be somebody” on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack." But this alludes on the extern circumstances (poverty for example). But not in the way that Ennis would earnestly believe Jack had ruined his life. 
        Mikaela -- No. It's difficult to generalize. Now and then Ennis may have thought along those lines in his continuous despair over his own siuation, and once he lashes out at Jack in fear of Jack leaving him, but overall I think he felt himself to be someone and to be somewhere only when together with Jack


-- Blame his feelings for Jack for keeping him from leading a normal life?

          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  He knew he had feelings for Jack, and Ennis called those feelings a “thing,” and he knew that those feelings, that “thing” kept Ennis from leading a normal life – what Ennis would perceive as normal.
          Jane  -  yes
          Diane – same as what I just said above ... .i.e. Yes!
          Penth -- yes
          Mikaela -- Yes

-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Jack in the first place?
          Latjoreme -- No way.
      Ruthlessly – I don’t agree.  If Ennis is like 99% of other people who fall in love (as some people have said    ;)   ), then there are certainly times when he has wished he’d never gotten involved with Jack.  Wished it as an overall defining characteristic of himself?  No.  But gone through long periods of trying to forget, get over, avoid, regret… then, yes.
          Jane  -  no f'n way!
          Diane – No way …. He was his one-in-a-lifetime love. Jack was the one person who could understand him.
          Penth -- No way
          Mikaela -- No. Not on your life. No. 

Regarding love, does Ennis

-- Use that word when talking to Jack?
          Latjoreme -- No, obviously.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – no way … that’s completely out of his character
          Penth -- No
     Mikaela -- No, certainly not. More's the pity.  :'( 

-- Use that word when talking to himself?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly – Agreed.  But he did try to get personalized vanity plates on his truck that say “E (heart) J.”  Unfortunately, the Wyoming DMV doesn’t allow a heart character on their plates.   :laugh:
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane – No.
          Penth -- Hm, no. But....
            Mikaela -- No, not until the very end. He's learned to use the word by then - he would have used it to himself, not only to his daughter. 


-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?
          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly – “Notice?”  Yes, occasionally, but quickly dismisses it as “Can’t be… it’s a “thing.””
          Jane  -  no.  Ennis is all about submersing his feelings.  I don't think he even lets them breathe.
          Diane – Possibly. He is so cut off from his feelings and others’ perceptions, I don’t know that he would be capable of
          picking up on something like that.

           Penth -- A very sure Yes
          Mikaela -- Yes, he is aware of the feelings and longings and behaviour 

-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?
          Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.)
          Ruthlessly – Getting’ there… plus the other interactions that follow.  Pie’ll do it to ya every time!  They shoulda bin eatin’ pie up on ol’ Brokeback ‘steada beans.
          Jane  -  yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment.  He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation.  That is why he dropped Cassie..
          Diane – No … I think he realized that he loved Jack after their confrontation. The pie scene illustrates how cut off and onely Ennis has become and it is used as a way to close his relationship with Cassie.
         Penth -- I'm with Diane and Jane here: after the lake scene
         Mikaela -- No. I think he knows earlier. Is the use of that specific word the point of this question? Then not much earlier. Ennis doesn't use the word "love" till very late. 

-- Not recognize it until his conversation with Alma Jr.?
          Latjoreme -- No, I think he recognizes in the closet at the very latest.
          Ruthlessly – Fully recognizes it in the closet at the very earliest AND at the very latest.  Was there pie in that there closet?
          Jane  -  No, he starts to recognize it after his breakdown and Jack’s speech.
          Diane – No … same as what I have said above.
          Penth -- No, see above. He took a step forward: he is able to talk about it. Not about his love for Jack, but able to admit how important it is.
         Mikaela -- No. 

-- Recognize only in the end that, given that he and Jack were in love, that he should have made honoring that love his first priority, rather than being afraid to do so?
          Latjoreme -- Absolutely.
          Ruthlessly – Recognize … that he should have … rather than…?  No.  Change it to “After the closet scene, especially during his talk with Jr., and given that Ennis now understands that he and Jack were in love, did Ennis wish that he would have been able to have overcome his fears and made his love for Jack his first priority while, after Jack’s death, still not actually dealing with overcoming his fears because there is no longer a reason to with regard to his relationship with Jack?”  Then, yes.  There ain’t that much pie in alla Riverton.
          Jane  -  Yes.
          Diane – Yes, absolutely. I think that is why he has such bitter longing … knowing what could have been and knowing that, since Jack is gone, it will never happen.
         Penth -- Yes, yes and yes. This makes it so poignant. What might have been. And he knows it. Recognizes after Jack's death. Latest after he found the shirts, but I believe even before the shirts.
         Mikaela – I realize I have no easy answer for this one. I have to think about it. I’m not certain Ennis ever reaches a point where he truly believes he could have managed to “honour the love” if that meant actually living Jack’s “sweet life “ together. The shirts still in the closet at the end remain a very compelling image – but one that can be interpreted more than one way. (See answer to the question 2 points further down). I think if Ennis recognizes one thing, it’s that he should have made sure of showing and telling Jack straight out how he felt about him - he should have made absolutely sure that Jack did not have to die in any sort of doubt about that.


-- Does Ennis think homosexuals deserve death?
           Latjoreme: No. He might think his dad was right that homosexuality is shameful and wrong. But I don't think he believes that if his dad did the job he was right in that case.
          Ruthlessly -- I dunno, again.  He did tell Jack that if he came to know certain things, he'd kill him.  And I don’t believe for a minute he's talking about jealousy here.  His father taught him well.
           Diane – I agree completely with your point of view, Katherine.
           Penth -- No way. Agree with Diane and Katherine.
           Mikaela -- No. He thinks homosexuality is shameful and wrong. His upbringing taught him he should speak as if he thinks they deserve death. 

-- After Jack dies, will Ennis' homophobia and fears and shame remain intact, now that there's no longer any reason to overcome them?
            Latjoreme: Partly. He has learned a lesson, suggested by his decision to attend the wedding and his swearing to Jack. On the other hand, I don't see him so enlightened that he'd go on to have other relationships with men (though he wouldn't anyway, because he'd still be grieving Jack).
          Ruthlessly -- I think so.  Wouldn't Alma, Sr. be the only one who would confront him?  Without his relationship going on with Jack, and without Alma to confront him, I don’t think he'd make any forward steps.  In fact, this may shut him down completely as far as intimate, relationship love goes.
           Diane – Yes … If anything, I see him becoming more bitter and homophobic. In his eyes, Jack was murdered for being gay.
          Jane  -  Here is a quote I transcribed from a intro to the song "The Maker Makes"  written by Rufus Wainwright for the movie Brokeback Mountain.  The song is the very last song played during the film, as the credits are just winding down.  Hell most of the people will have left the cinema by the time this song will have started to play! 

Rufus Wainwright:
"It's called The Maker Makes 'cause it's, it's just about, it's
it's sorta a, a the flip side of someone who, who instead of y'now discovering
their homosexuality, y'know moves to NY, and y'now gets y'know a haircut,
um, they decide to sort of stay, where they are and really forsake their uhm,
 their sexuality.
"


                  Penth -- I think he just doesn't care anymore. So my anwser would be both: yes and no. I think he is not ashamed anymore (to himself) that he loved Jack and about their relationship. But admitting it to another person - no. And for other possible relationships: I think there are no other possible relationships, so there's no need for any progress in overcoming his fears, because his fears are not important anymore.
               Mikaela -- Yes and  No. He has changed, in that he has reached a level of inner peace and acceptance about what he had with Jack, that part of the conflict in him is gone. But he has no reason to "come out" to the rest of the world any more. Quite the opposite, perhaps: Keeping silent on the subject gives him insurance that nothing or noone will have the opportunity to sullly or disparage his memories of what he had with Jack. 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 01:45:32 am by latjoreme »

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2006, 01:06:21 pm »
HEY EVERYBODY

I split this topic from the end of the "Shut up about Ennis" thread, where these questionnaires started, because they were starting to take on a life of their own.

To participate, hit "quote" in the previous post, then REMOVE the "quote" and "/quote" coding around it so it can be copied again easily with the colors intact. Answer questions, preferably in a new color. Or start a new questionnaire of your own.

It's fun!

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2006, 04:00:23 pm »
Quote
Can we add a couple more questions to this survey? As I watched the film again last night, I jotted down a few things ....

Regarding the harmonica:
Does Jack play "He was a friend of mine?"
          Diane - IMO, there is no melodic line. I can't imagine that this is the case.
          Jane  -  no idea.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  It can be hard to catch in watching the film because of other noises and dialogue that separate the various parts of his playing.  But, all of Jack’s harmonica playing is on the Academy voters CD (there’s a link to it somewhere on these boards, but I cannot remember where I found it).  On this CD, you hear all of Jack’s playing without the extra noises and without the extra dialogue.  And, it’s all strung together in order.  It’s crystal clear.  The lyrics for the notes he plays are: (during the “tent don’t look right” scene) “He….. was a friend of mine…. He…. (stop) He… (stop) Was a friend of mine… (stop) Just kept on mov…” and (during the ride back from untangling the sheep) “He was a friend of mine… Every time I hear his name… I just…” (then he just blows in and out for a couple of seconds as if trying to find his tune).  Jack’s playing is out of tune, but it’s unmistakable on the voters CD.
                Penth -- I don't know. But it's hard to believe; I think no.

Is there any symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica twice and Ennis saying, “I wish that harmonica would break in two"?
          Diane – I say no. I bring this up because there was an argument that the harmonica symbolized “breaking Ennis and Jack in two” … Obviously, I don’t buy it.
          Jane  -  no.
          Ruthlessly - Yes there is.  It’s a foreshadowing of Jack being separated in two when half of his ashes went to Texas and half to Wyoming.  It’s not about the two of them breaking in two.  Every time either Ennis or Jack hums or sings or Jack plays his harmonica, it foreshadows Jack’s death.  Singing, humming, and harmonica playing are all forms of wind.  Jack is symbolized by the wind.  Ennis hums “The Cowboy’s Lament” (aka “The Streets of Laredo”) about a dead cowboy as he rides to meet the bear, Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica at the “tent don’t look” right, Jack sings “Water-Walking Jesus” (“I know that I shall meet you on that final day… WWJ, take me away”), Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica after the “untangle sheep” scene, Ennis is glad Jack forgot his harmonica at the river reunion scene (because it would foreshadow Jack’s death, and then Ennis foreshadows Jack’s death himself when he tells the Earl death story), Ennis will go to the church social with the girls if he doesn’t have to sing (he doesn’t want to foreshadow Jack’s death), Ennis hums a tune taught to him by his mother at the dozy embrace – Jack dies soon afterward.
                   Penth -- hmm, undecided. But I can't follow ruthlessly with his argumentation as a whole. Perhaps partly.

Regarding Randall:           
Is Jack checking out Randall or is Randall checking out Jack?
          Diane – I think it is both. However, I think Randall is more overt than  Jack.
          Jane  -  Randall checking out Jack.
          Ruthlessly – I think Randall checks out Jack overtly, Jack knows it and is trying to avoid it.
          Penth -- Randall checking out Jack. Jack notices.

When Randall mentions the cabin … what is Jack thinking?
          Diane – IMO, he is thinking about Ennis … especially when he looks straight ahead …. as if  he is longing to be with the man he loves. However, he also has needs that Ennis is not fulfilling … so I think he’s beginning to consider having an affair.
          Jane  -  His exacts words / thoughts are "Why couldn't this be Ennis, suggesting that?"
          Ruthlessly – He’s thinking everything you both said and a lot more.
          Penth -- Thinking about Ennis and regretting that it is not Ennis who makes this suggestion. And starting to consider about it.

Ennis’ vision of Jack being murdered:
Does Ennis’ finding out that Jack had been seeing another man reinforce his belief that Jack was murdered?
          Diane – Yes. That feeds into his homophobia. In Ennis' mind, people found out that Jack was having sex with a man and was killed because of it.
          Jane  -  It re-inforces his fear, IMO he does not have the belief 100%, he has the fear.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  As long as we keep it all in Ennis’ mind.
           Penth -- Yes. But Ennis's fears were fuled when he finds out about Jack seeing other men, which is at the lake scene, latest. Not in the Twist home. If you mean especially when he learns about Randalll ("some other fella") at the Twist home, then no for the movie but a  yes for the book.

Is there a significance that Ennis envisions a man stomping on Jack’s groin?
          Diane – Absolutely, yes. Mirrors the image he saw with Earl. This signifies the most overt thing … the sexual organ (I am trying to be delicate here … difficult to do) … having sex with a man is societal suicide.
          Jane  -  I dunno, never gave it much thought.
          Ruthlessly – I agree with Diane.
          Penth -- Never saw this in the movie. Too many tears.

Even though the reality of Jack’s death is ambiguous, IYO, was Jack murdered or did he die in an accident?
          Diane – Hate to say this, but I think he was murdered.
          Jane  -  Well I prefer to believe that he died in an accident, but I realize that I could be wrong as the overwhelming consensus (four-to-one that it was gay bashing) is that he was murdered.
          Ruthlessly – Accident.  All of the direct evidence points straight to it.  All of the evidence for murder hinges on one point only – something that Ennis conjured up in his mind due to his fears.
         Penth -- Phew. Tough one. I tend to accident, most times. But only "tend to".  We're all in the same situation like Ennis: never knowing for sure. I just can't make my mind up for a definite (definite for myself)  answer. First I was in the "murder-camp", then changed to the "accident-camp", now it changes back and forth.

When Ennis finds out (when visiting Jack's parents) that Jack was seeing another man, his face turned pale. IYO, was Ennis feeling betrayed? Was he thinking, "OMG! Jack was murdered"?
          Diane - I think Ennis felt betrayed at the lake scene, but not so much here. It was the knowledge that Jack was seeing a man at the same time he died and the belief that Jack was, indeed, murdered.
          Jane  -  I tried to read his expressions, but I could not.  But I can still answer this question, I guess.  I think when he heard about the other guy, he felt betrayed, because Jack was steppin' out.
          Ruthlessly – Betrayed, no.  Jack murdered, no.  He was thinking “I really blew it.  I could have had that with Jack, but I wouldn’t give it to him.  So he tried to fulfill his dream with someone else.”  With this kind of emotional self-beating, betrayal and murder are far from his mind.  He’s only concentrating on the love that was between them.
          Penth -- Betrayed? Don't know.  Hurt? yes

Let’s keep adding to these questions! This is too much fun!   :)


Thanks for adding all these great questions!  And I think it was totally appropriate for latjoreme to move these questions to their own thread to give them a life of their own.

Penth -- I like this questionnaire very much. And it was a good idea to move it to an own thread.


[/quote]

ruthlesslyunsentimental

  • Guest
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2006, 04:57:46 pm »
Penth -- I have a couple of questions about your answers above.



Regarding the harmonica:
Does Jack play "He was a friend of mine?"
          Penth -- I don't know. But it's hard to believe; I think no.


Have you listened to the voters CD where it's all strung together without the extra noises and pauses?  If yes, then I'm surprised.  If no, then I think you'll be surprised.





Is there any symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica twice and Ennis saying, “I wish that harmonica would break in two"?
          Penth -- hmm, undecided. But I can't follow ruthlessly with his argumentation as a whole. Perhaps partly.


What parts yes and what parts no and why?




Thanks!  And have a BetterMost day!    :laugh:



Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2006, 08:11:07 pm »
Have you listened to the voters CD where it's all strung together without the extra noises and pauses?  If yes, then I'm surprised.  If no, then I think you'll be surprised.

You know I have the regular CD. But, you have mentioned you burned the voters' CD. Where in the world can I get a copy of this??? I love the regular CD, but there is a bunch of music that's not on there. Help me get a copy, please!!!  :-\
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

ruthlesslyunsentimental

  • Guest
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2006, 08:40:58 pm »
You know I have the regular CD. But, you have mentioned you burned the voters' CD. Where in the world can I get a copy of this??? I love the regular CD, but there is a bunch of music that's not on there. Help me get a copy, please!!!  :-\


OK, ok.  Since I’ve brought it up a couple of times, I suppose it's my responsibility to find it...  :)



It's in a thread called "Music from Brokeback" on the Chez Tremblay board.  I put a msg in at the end of it just to bump it up to the top of the list.  (I hope that's o.k.)

There are two zipped file links.  Click them and download to your computer.  Then burn all to one CD.  There are a couple of songs missing such as the song when Jack meets Jimbo and "I Will Never Let You Go."  It has "Melissa" and the original "King of the Road."  All of the music is in the order it was in the film.  Plus, there's the final post office ("Deceased") music, plus the "In Jack's Closet" music.  Etc., etc.


Now, I didn't post it originally, but since I led you to it, if you download it, you have to let me know what you think.  I think it's great.


I'm sorry, but I don't know how to put a link to a thread in a post.    ???






« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 09:13:40 pm by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2006, 10:44:36 pm »
So, I have a very serious question about this first, "regarding his homosexuality" questionnaire.  How have our own personal experiences impacted how we view Ennis's struggle? 

For those of you who are gay or bisexual, does your reading of Ennis's struggles with identity and emotional growth/change/stress, etc. have any relation to your own struggle coming out (either to yourself or others)?   My first girlfriend (who was very "out") used to complain, nonetheless, about how exhausting coming out is.  She said she came to realize eventually that you don't come out once and then it's done... you have to deal with it every day in every new situation.  And I agree completely.  It can be a yo-yo feeling of worry-stress-happiness-elation, but all of this can wear you down.  And, one's attitude towards the situation definitely evolves.  Exhaustion is one of the things I feel for Ennis at the end (among many other things of course), since he's gone through so much.  And, I think among many things, this film is about a massive evolution for Ennis. 

And for those of you who are straight... well, is there an equivalent situation in your life that impacts your view of Ennis's struggles (as related to this questionnaire)?

I'm sure this question would be more appropriate for Safe Haven.  But, I think this questionnaire begs for this issue to be raised.  Essentially, what I'm asking is, what criteria are we using to evaluate Ennis here?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 01:38:02 am by atz75 »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2006, 01:09:12 am »
And for those of you who are straight... well, is there an equivalent situation in your life that impacts your view of Ennis's struggles (as related to this questionnaire)?

No. There have been mini-parallels -- things I've been reluctant to acknowledge to myself or others and struggled over -- but nothing as huge and ongoing and central to my life and identity. It's hard to imagine many other issues that would come even close (though I have seen a few described by others here at BetterMost).

Which I'll admit is why I sometimes find myself facing limitations in these discussions because of my own lack of first-hand experience. For instance, I'll be arguing with somebody who is gay, and I'll say, "Well, how could Ennis possibly NOT acknowledge such and such to himself?" and the other person will refer to friends, or maybe themselves, having maintained that sort of utter denial. So maybe that's an area of ignorance for me that affects my understanding of the movie. I don't know.

Good questions, Amanda!

On another topic, reading over people's responses I wish I'd written some of the questions differently, because I can see that a few of them are slightly confusing or ambiguous. One that jumped out at me was

Quote
-- Blame his feelings for Jack for keeping him from leading a normal life?
         Latjoreme -- Yes.
         Ruthlessly – Agreed.  He knew he had feelings for Jack, and Ennis called those feelings a “thing,” and he knew that those feelings, that “thing” kept Ennis from leading a normal life – what Ennis would perceive as normal.
         Jane  -  yes
         Diane – same as what I just said above ... .i.e. Yes!
         Penth -- yes
         Mikaela -- Yes
         Barb - Yes.  But who among us hasn't done that, albeit not to the same extent in most cases?
         Amanda= What's a normal life?  I don't know how to answer this.

I should have put "normal life" in quotes -- I meant Ennis' concept of normal. (Originally it referred to a remark on the other thread, now probably six pages back.)

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2006, 02:03:12 am »
Thanks Katherine.

These questionnaires really are very, very interesting.

As I was working on that first questionnaire (the rest will have to wait until tomorrow) I found myself having a wacky-Brokie reaction and began thinking of Ennis more and more along the lines of a real person (a la Ang Lee thanking Ennis and Jack at the Oscars).  And, you'll love this Katherine because this is me wearing my defend-Ennis-hat right now... I feel like judging his ability to come out or judging how much he's able even to articulate coming out is really harsh.  I think he comes a long way within the context of the story/ world of the film.  I remember writing posts long ago about how proud Jack would be of Ennis at the end with the "I swear..." statement because he, of all people, would understand how scary, hard and new saying something like that would be for Ennis (even alone in his trailer).  **And now I've just managed to make myself cry over that idea.**
 ::) :'(

Anyway, I think one of the main tensions in the film is sensing something all along (knowing that they love each other) and the difficulty of actually articulating it (or acting on it... as in living together).  Which to me, is the essence of a coming out story/ dilemma.

Ennis's characteristic silence... or silence in general...  may be one of the biggest metaphors that I don't remember tackling fully and probably relates to this topic quite directly. 
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2006, 02:45:43 am »
I feel like judging his ability to come out or judging how much he's able even to articulate coming out is really harsh.  I think he comes a long way within the context of the story/ world of the film.

I know. I hate it when people criticize him out of context. He did the best he could, considering his dad didn't leave him nothin but $24 in a coffee can and a lifetime's worth of fear and self-loathing.


Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2006, 04:01:17 am »
Regarding his homosexuality, would Ennis:


-- Describe himself that way to others?

         Latjoreme -- Never.
         Ruthlessly ? Agreed, never.
         Jane  -  no.
         Diane ? no human way!
         Penth -- No way
         Mikaela ? No, never ever. Not unless we're talking bizarro-world Ennis.
         Barb - No, not ever.
         Amanda= No... not out loud... But, he'd be capable of formulating the thought in response to someone else's remark by the time of the conversation with Cassie in the bus station.  The "I don't get you." comment, I think, spurs Ennis to at least think about his love/attraction for Jack (i.e. his own homosexuality) first and foremost as the main reason why Cassie would never "get" him.  Also, in Lightning Flat I think everyone at the table, including Ennis, recognizes Ennis's identity as Jack's lover.
         Ellemeno -- Maybe at the end, to Alma Jr., if she asked directly and gently.  Otherwise, no.


-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?

          Latjoreme -- Early on in the movie, no. By the end, probably yes.
          Ruthlessly ? Early, agreed.  End, slightly, possibly, maybe... but still only with fear and self-loathing.
          Jane  -  Early on, not on your f?n life!  By the end, still no.
          Diane -  No, no, no! I don?t think he?d even consider admitting to himself he would fit into that category.
          Penth -- Early on: no. Later: probably yes, and not only after Jack's death, but even before ("You ever get the feeleng...")
          Mikaela -- Yes, eventually he would use the term "queer" to himself.
          Barb - No, not to the point where he truly accepts it to be true.
          Amanda= Yes, again, by the time he has his bus station chat with Cassie and his meeting the Jack's folks.  And, yes, he'd be much more likely to use the term queer than homosexual.  Even earlier... when Ennis asks Jack about whether people on the street "know"... he's worrying that people can see/ tell that he's queer.  He almost comes right out and says this in this conversation.  It's bubbling right under the surface of being an articulate statement.  So, maybe he even can think this word- queer- to himself by the time of the "Jack Nasty" conversation... which spurs his later discussion with Jack.
          Ellemeno -- Yes, deep, deep down, from the time he was very young, and then quick turn away.


-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?

          Latjoreme -- Yes, probably, the whole time.
          Ruthlessly ? Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes he would consider that those words might apply to him.
          Diane ? He might consider the possibility, but I don?t think he would allow himself to acknowledge that he might be gay.
          Penth -- Yes, from very early on.
          Mikaela ? Yes, from he was nine years old.
          Barb - Yes.  In his heart of hearts, he's always considered it.
          Amanda= Yes of course.  This is precisely why he brings is up to Jack on the mountain top after TS1.  It's on his mind anyway.  And, I think they're both telling each other what they want to hear... "I ain't queer..."  is a basic fib that, even if they won't admit it out loud, is undercut by their actions and obvious love/ attraction for each other.  I think this is why we're immediately shown TS2.
          Ellemeno -- Yes.

-- Notice he's attracted to men?
         Latjoreme -- Yes, since he was a kid, though he has learned to hide or repress it.
         Ruthlessly ? Agreed.
         Jane  -  yes.
         Diane ? Yes ? again, I am not sure if he would admit, even to himself that he is attracted to men.
         Penth -- Yes
         Mikaela -- Yes, most certainly. One of the reasons he's so painfully shy
         Barb - Yes, and loathe himself for it.
         Amanda= Yes he notices.  From the time he's 9 years old he notices.  Even before the Earl trauma, he was probably secretly fascinated by these two gay role models.  He may even secretly admire their courage ("tough old birds").  Anyway, he at the very least notices his attraction to Jack long before Jack's first move in TS1.
         Ellemeno -- Yes.


-- Wish he weren't?

         Latjoreme -- Sure.
         Jane  -  yes.
         Ruthlessly ? Agreed.
         Penth -- yes
         Mikaela -- Yes, or the story and film would not have been the same
         Barb - Yes.
         Amanda= Yes... until Jack dies.  Once Jack is gone I think his whole attitude towards the situation changes.  I think in the end he's so grateful to have had Jack in his life that he probably would even be willing to accept his identity as gay (at least in his head) because it was that identity that allowed Jack into his life.  Does that make any sense?  And anyway, I think an underlying theme of this film is the issue of coming-out (however tortured the route... and at least coming out to ones self).
         Ellemeno -- I feel a shift when he's coming out of the Riverton post office, a lightness to his step, right before finding the DECEASED postcard.  I think by then he's made peace with himself: he's quit with Cassie, he's written a postcard (!) to Jack telling him he's looking forward to November, he knows who he is and accepts himself.



-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn?t?

          Ruthlessly ? Absolutely
          Diane ? ABOSULETLY!! No way would he even be comfortable with the fact that he was gay.
          Latjoreme -- No, I'd say more like 65%.
          Penth -- No.
          Mikaela -- Difficult one. Yes, at certain moments in his life, especially in his younger years, I think he actually managed this, to his great relief?. But over the perspective of longer time periods, the percentage was not *anywhere* near 100%.
          Barb - He would keep trying, but he'd never succeed.
          Amanda= Of course he doesn't.
          Ellemeno -- No, he knows.  (To Alma: "I'd be GLAD to leave you alone.")



-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a gay relationship?

         Latjoreme -- Yes, sort of.
         Jane  -  no?   yes?   :-\
         Ruthlessly ? No.  No recognition ? which signifies to me that it dawns on him, that he becomes aware of it.  No.
         Penth -- Difficult. Recognizes that others would call it a gay relationship, yes
         Mikaela ?  I agree with Penth. He recognizes that others would call it a gay relationship. For his own conflicted self, he?d think of it as special and not easily boil it down to that simple term.
         Barb - I'm with Mikaela on this one.  I don't think he'd ever officially recognize it as such to himself, but I think he knows that that's how other people see it.  In fact, his knowing that adds to his denial and defiance.  e.g., "They don't know what the fuck they're talkin' about..."
         Amanda= Yes... I think that's what the whole Mexico argument was about.  Recognizing that Jack is gay... and that Ennis is gay... and that their relationship is gay.
         Ellemeno -- Sometimes he faces it (dozy embrace, joy on his face in the "look what I brought" scene, his arm around Jack in TS3), someetimes not ("...what they got in Mexico fer boys like YOU [NOT ME].)  Although, he's probably even facing it in that scene too, just not out loud.



-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a ?thing? that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
          Ruthlessly ? Yes, 100%
          Diane ? I agree with Ruthless 100% on both of these points. No way can he consider that this is a gay relationship ? it is an anomaly.
          Latjoreme: No, I think deep down he knows what the correct name is, but he would never say it out loud and tries not to say it to himself.
          Penth -- this is the converse of the question above (kind of). Therefore No, because he knows how it would be called by all the world and his brother.
          Mikaela ? yes and no? He will not let himself name it by it?s generally accepted name, but he does know what that name is.
          Barb - At the end, he knows it's love, even if he doesn't consciously call it that to himself.  He knows.
          Amanda= He knows what their relationship is.  He doesn't use the term relationship... but then neither does Jack and I don't think we doubt Jack's ability to comprehend what the "thing" was.  And anyway, Jack at least tells him that their relationship could be "a sweet life"... Ennis hears this and I think completely understands (but is too afraid to go for it).
          Ellemeno -- When he first uses the word "thing," he probably hasn't figured it all out, but after they develop a routine, he might not be able to imagine how it would really work for them to have an actual domestic partnership-type relationship, because other than Rich and Earl, he may not have had any modelling for it, but he knows.



-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?

          Latjoreme -- No. He tries his best to believe that, but secretly knows it's not true.
          Ruthlessly ? I?m not sure if I?ve broken down the question into its intended subparts correctly.  Correct me if I?m wrong.  ?Believe it?s a huge exception to the rule?? ? No.  The only rules to homosexuality that he believes are that it?s wrong and equals (or deserves) death.  ?Believe ? that he?s not ?really? gay ?? ? Absolutely.  He does not believe himself to be gay.  ?Believe ? and otherwise would be attracted only to women? ? The word ?otherwise? would require him to think of himself as gay, which he does not.  He may not be attracted to women sexually, but he believes that he?s supposed to be. 
          Jane  -  hunh??
          Diane ? In Ennis? mind ? yes. I think he can not comprehend (or should I say consciously understand) why he loves Jack. IMO, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is. If it wouldn?t be for that, Ennis would believe that he would be living a ?normal? life.
          Penth -- Probably no.
          Mikaela -- No. This is what he'd wish for, but deep down he knows he's attracted to other men.
          Barb - I'm with Mikaela again on this one.
          Amanda= No, he realizes that he's not even attracted to Cassie... the type of woman who would be many a straight man's dream.  And, his love scenes with Alma are some of the most tortured I've seen in a long time.
         Ellemeno -- After Jack comes back in his life, he stops even the gentle, familiar affection he first had with Alma (when he touched her back when he entered the ranch kitchen).  And Cassie is just aggressive enough to get him, and a handy disguise, but he doesn't seem very interested to be putting the blocks to her.



-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Jack?

          Latjoreme -- Probably not.
          Ruthlessly ? Agreed.  Unless someone came along and led him to it in the same way Jack did ? build a friendship, build an intimacy, give Ennis his moment to let it all come bursting out, etc.
          Jane  -  maybe, if he was attracted to and picked up in the right way.
          Diane ? I find it highly improbable.
          Penth -- Yes, if the other man would be Jack-like: leading him. I'm with Ruthlessly on this question
          Mikaela -- No, or at least chances are very, very slim. It would require alignment of special circumstances akin to what he and Jack had, including someone to lead him into it ? and time enough alone to get comfortable.
          Barb - No.  Following Mikaela's line of reasoning, since there's no way the stars would ever align to that extent again, no.  He's too much in denial for that.
          Amanda= I agree that he'd still need someone else to make a first move.  But, probably he could have found another guy under the right circumstances.
         Ellemeno -- He's only 39 by the end of the movie.  Who knows what will come his way?


-- Blame Jack for him (Ennis) being gay?
         Latjoreme -- Not in his sexuality. See above -- he knows he already was. Not in his behavior, either; he implies this in the lakeside scene, but he's upset.
         Ruthlessly ? I dunno.  Even if Ennis recognized early on that he is attracted to men, it took Jack to bring Ennis to the point of acting on it.  So, because Ennis does not believe himself to be gay, he very well could blame Jack for bringing Ennis to the point of acting on Ennis? attraction to other fellas.
         Jane  -  no.
         Diane ? as I said above, yes.
         Penth -- No
         Mikaela -- No.
         Barb - In a way (as Ruthlessly described way better than I could), yes, I think he does.
         Amanda- no.
         Ellemeno -- No, but blame Jack for him BEHAVING gay, yes, when he's unhappy.



-- Blame Jack for keeping him nothin and nowhere?
         Latjoreme -- Not really. Again, he's lashing out in anger. He does not actually resent Jack for the way his life has gone.
         Ruthlessly ? Half and half.  Ennis knows that he?s nothin? and nowhere because he has put his ?get somewhere? and ?be somebody? on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack.  Ennis knows that?s what he?s done.  But, he probably doesn?t accept responsibility for his actions; thus, he blames Jack for it.  For the simple fact that Jack was there, Ennis just couldn?t help himself.
         Jane  -  no, not Jack, but his relationship with Jack?  Yes.
         Diane ? as I have stated before, yes. I think he sees the relationship as something that has somewhat derailed his life.  If not for Jack, he would probably still be married to Alma and living a blissful lie of a life.
         Penth -- Partly yes. "...because he has put his ?get somewhere? and ?be somebody? on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack." But this alludes on the extern circumstances (poverty for example). But not in the way that Ennis would earnestly believe Jack had ruined his life. 
         Mikaela -- No. It's difficult to generalize. Now and then Ennis may have thought along those lines in his continuous despair over his own siuation, and once he lashes out at Jack in fear of Jack leaving him, but overall I think he felt himself to be someone and to be somewhere only when together with Jack.
         Barb - Up until he finds the shirts, yes.  After that, no.  Then he blames himself.  And that's his fate - that he has to live with that regret and guilt, along with his grief, for the rest of his life.  :(
         Amanda= He blames the circumstances under which they conduct their relationship for his "nothing and nowhere" sense of himself.  But, he knows this isn't Jack's fault.
         Ellemeno -- Again, only when he's cranky.  I think Ennis loved some aspects of his life - what's the quote from the short story - "His penchant for low-paying ranch work."



-- Blame his feelings for Jack for keeping him from leading a normal life?

         Latjoreme -- Yes.
         Ruthlessly ? Agreed.  He knew he had feelings for Jack, and Ennis called those feelings a ?thing,? and he knew that those feelings, that ?thing? kept Ennis from leading a normal life ? what Ennis would perceive as normal.
         Jane  -  yes
         Diane ? same as what I just said above ... .i.e. Yes!
         Penth -- yes
         Mikaela -- Yes
         Barb - Yes.  But who among us hasn't done that, albeit not to the same extent in most cases?
         Amanda= What's a normal life?  I don't know how to answer this.
         Ellemeno -- Grinding hard work "All I got time for is making a living" is what he expects in life.    Jack mostly just brings him joy.  But the secrecy and interuptiveness of it is wearing.


-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Jack in the first place?
         Latjoreme -- No way.
         Ruthlessly ? I don?t agree.  If Ennis is like 99% of other people who fall in love (as some people have said    ;)   ), then there are certainly times when he has wished he?d never gotten involved with Jack.  Wished it as an overall defining characteristic of himself?  No.  But gone through long periods of trying to forget, get over, avoid, regret? then, yes.
          Jane  -  no f'n way!
          Diane ? No way ?. He was his one-in-a-lifetime love. Jack was the one person who could understand him.
          Penth -- No way
          Mikaela -- No. Not on your life. No. 
          Barb - I think he would wish that at certain points.  Even when all is said (and not said) and done (and not done) whenever the grief becomes practically unbearable, I think there would be a small part of him that would wish he had been spared all that pain.  But overall, no, I don't think he'd consciously wish that or want that for more than a moment or two.
          Amanda= No way.  I think Jack kept him going those 20 years and his memories of Jack will, in a way, save his life.  Can you imagine how dreary and dismal his life would have been without the excitement of Jack?  How could someone regret having a soul mate?
         Ellemeno -- No.  Again the short story, something like "suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream again.  If he lets it, the memory can warm him all day."  (Total paraphrase, sorry.)

Regarding love, does Ennis

-- Use that word when talking to Jack?
          Latjoreme -- No, obviously.
          Ruthlessly ? Agreed.
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane ? no way ? that?s completely out of his character
          Penth -- No
          Mikaela -- No, certainly not. More's the pity.  :'( 
          Barb - No.
          Amanda= No, but he comes damn close with the "Jack I swear..."  Talking to Jack's ghost at least.
         Ellemeno -- It doesn't seem like it. 



-- Use that word when talking to himself?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly ? Agreed.  But he did try to get personalized vanity plates on his truck that say ?E (heart) J.?  Unfortunately, the Wyoming DMV doesn?t allow a heart character on their plates.   :laugh:
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane ? No.
          Penth -- Hm, no. But....
          Mikaela -- No, not until the very end. He's learned to use the word by then - he would have used it to himself, not only to his daughter.
          Barb - No, not about Jack.  Only about his daughters.
          Amanda= Yes, but only after Jack is dead.  And maybe for the first time during his chat with Alma Jr.
         Ellemeno -- Only during/after the conversation with Alma Jr.


-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?
          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly ? ?Notice??  Yes, occasionally, but quickly dismisses it as ?Can?t be? it?s a ?thing.??
          Jane  -  no.  Ennis is all about submersing his feelings.  I don't think he even lets them breathe.
          Diane ? Possibly. He is so cut off from his feelings and others? perceptions, I don?t know that he would be capable of picking up on something like that.
          Penth -- A very sure Yes
          Mikaela -- Yes, he is aware of the feelings and longings and behaviour
          Barb - No, not consciously.  And since that's what 'notice' means, just no.  ;)
          Amanda= Yes absolutely.
         Ellemeno -- Yes.  (The look he gives Jack as they are riding and Jack plays the harmonica seems blatant to me.)



-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?
          Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.)
          Ruthlessly ? Getting? there? plus the other interactions that follow.  Pie?ll do it to ya every time!  They shoulda bin eatin? pie up on ol? Brokeback ?steada beans.
          Jane  -  yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment.  He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation.  That is why he dropped Cassie..
          Diane ? No ? I think he realized that he loved Jack after their confrontation. The pie scene illustrates how cut off and onely Ennis has become and it is used as a way to close his relationship with Cassie.
          Penth -- I'm with Diane and Jane here: after the lake scene
          Mikaela -- No. I think he knows earlier. Is the use of that specific word the point of this question? Then not much earlier. Ennis doesn't use the word "love" till very late. 
          Barb - He starts to realize it then, but the notion doesn't solidify in his mind until he says to Alma, Jr. "This Kurt... He loves you?" and she says, "Yes, Daddy.  He loves me."
          Amanda= No, I don't know when he knew.  Maybe TS2.  But it certainly wasn't as late as the pie scene.  Again, he may not have articulated the word 'love' in his head until the end... but he was in love/ loved Jack all along.  How can you ignore or not understand an emotion like that?  Even if you can't name it?
          Ellemeno -- The pivotal importance of the pie scene is still a new concept to me.  But he knew.  YOU BET.


-- Not recognize it until his conversation with Alma Jr.?
         Latjoreme -- No, I think he recognizes in the closet at the very latest.
         Ruthlessly ? Fully recognizes it in the closet at the very earliest AND at the very latest.  Was there pie in that there closet?
         Jane  -  No, he starts to recognize it after his breakdown and Jack?s speech.
         Diane ? No ? same as what I have said above.
         Penth -- No, see above. He took a step forward: he is able to talk about it. Not about his love for Jack, but able to admit how important it is.
         Mikaela -- No. 
         Barb - Oops.  Spoke too soon.  Typical.  Yes.  :)
         Amanda= No, I think he names it at this point.  He probably knows it, again, from TS2.  He definitely recognizes it with the dry heaves at least!         
         Ellemeno -- I don't think that it's so much that it dawns on him late that he loves Jack, as much as it dawns on him late that he could have taken action to have a sweet life with Jack and that he could have not let his fear make his choices for him.


-- Recognize only in the end that, given that he and Jack were in love, that he should have made honoring that love his first priority, rather than being afraid to do so?
         Latjoreme -- Absolutely.
         Ruthlessly ? Recognize ? that he should have ? rather than??  No.  Change it to ?After the closet scene, especially during his talk with Jr., and given that Ennis now understands that he and Jack were in love, did Ennis wish that he would have been able to have overcome his fears and made his love for Jack his first priority while, after Jack?s death, still not actually dealing with overcoming his fears because there is no longer a reason to with regard to his relationship with Jack??  Then, yes.  There ain?t that much pie in alla Riverton.
         Jane  -  Yes.
         Diane ? Yes, absolutely. I think that is why he has such bitter longing ? knowing what could have been and knowing that, since Jack is gone, it will never happen.
         Penth -- Yes, yes and yes. This makes it so poignant. What might have been. And he knows it. Recognizes after Jack's death. Latest after he found the shirts, but I believe even before the shirts.
         Mikaela ? I realize I have no easy answer for this one. I have to think about it. I?m not certain Ennis ever reaches a point where he truly believes he could have managed to ?honour the love? if that meant actually living Jack?s ?sweet life ? together. The shirts still in the closet at the end remain a very compelling image ? but one that can be interpreted more than one way. (See answer to the question 2 points further down). I think if Ennis recognizes one thing, it?s that he should have made sure of showing and telling Jack straight out how he felt about him - he should have made absolutely sure that Jack did not have to die in any sort of doubt about that.
         Barb - Yes, absolutely.  That's what "I swear" means to me.  Not so much the conscious use of the word love part as the realization that had he done things differently, Jack would still be alive and they would still be, if not openly together, committed to and enjoying one another on a regular basis.
         Amanda= This is a trick two part question.  I don't think he recognizes the love only at the end (he names it at the end).  But absolutely... He'd give his right arm and more for a second chance to "honor" his love for Jack and make it his priority.
         Ellemeno -- Yes, his first priority - along with taking care of his kids.


-- Does Ennis think homosexuals deserve death?
         Latjoreme: No. He might think his dad was right that homosexuality is shameful and wrong. But I don't think he believes that if his dad did the job he was right in that case.
         Ruthlessly -- I dunno, again.  He did tell Jack that if he came to know certain things, he'd kill him.  And I don?t believe for a minute he's talking about jealousy here.  His father taught him well.
         Diane ? I agree completely with your point of view, Katherine.
         Penth -- No way. Agree with Diane and Katherine.
         Mikaela -- No. He thinks homosexuality is shameful and wrong. His upbringing taught him he should speak as if he thinks they deserve death. 
         Barb - No.  Never.  As others have said here, he's ashamed of himself for it, but he never thought Earl or Jack or any other homosexuals "deserved" death.
         Amanda= No, I think we're meant to see Ennis as a huge contrast to his father.  "We're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them."  Ennis is definitely not one of the predators responsible for the menace of predator loss.  He's horrified by his father, it traumatizes him and messes up his sense of his own identity, but he certainly doesn't agree with him.
         Ellemeno -- No, but he does have that teaching in him.  I think that when confronted - and hurt - by Jack's Mexican sex, he lashes out with what he was taught was de facto behavior, threaten a "queer" with death.



-- After Jack dies, will Ennis' homophobia and fears and shame remain intact, now that there's no longer any reason to overcome them?           
         Latjoreme: Partly. He has learned a lesson, suggested by his decision to attend the wedding and his swearing to Jack. On the other hand, I don't see him so enlightened that he'd go on to have other relationships with men (though he wouldn't anyway, because he'd still be grieving Jack).
         Ruthlessly -- I think so.  Wouldn't Alma, Sr. be the only one who would confront him?  Without his relationship going on with Jack, and without Alma to confront him, I don?t think he'd make any forward steps.  In fact, this may shut him down completely as far as intimate, relationship love goes.
         Diane ? Yes ? If anything, I see him becoming more bitter and homophobic. In his eyes, Jack was murdered for being gay.
         Jane  -  Here is a quote I transcribed from a intro to the song "The Maker Makes"  written by Rufus Wainwright for the movie Brokeback Mountain.  The song is the very last song played during the film, as the credits are just winding down.  Hell most of the people will have left the cinema by the time this song will have started to play!...
         Penth -- I think he just doesn't care anymore. So my anwser would be both: yes and no. I think he is not ashamed anymore (to himself) that he loved Jack and about their relationship. But admitting it to another person - no. And for other possible relationships: I think there are no other possible relationships, so there's no need for any progress in overcoming his fears, because his fears are not important anymore.
         Mikaela -- Yes and  No. He has changed, in that he has reached a level of inner peace and acceptance about what he had with Jack, that part of the conflict in him is gone. But he has no reason to "come out" to the rest of the world any more. Quite the opposite, perhaps: Keeping silent on the subject gives him insurance that nothing or noone will have the opportunity to sullly or disparage his memories of what he had with Jack.
         Barb - Like Ruthlessly and Diane, yes, I think it would remain intact or become even more entrenched out of bitterness and regret.
         Amanda= I worry about Ennis closing that closet door.  But, I think he's a different person by the end of the film.  I think there's a glimmer of hope that he's learned a massive lesson from Jack and might be more willing to take chances.
         Ellemeno -- No, I think he had made some peace with himself around being queer (his preferred word) by the time he steps out of that Riverton post office, and more by the time he visits Jack's parents, and more by the time he comes down those stairs with the shirts, and more by the time he is putting the numbers on his mailbox, and more by the time we see those shirts hanging in his closet.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 04:04:28 am by Ellemeno »

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2006, 04:12:10 am »
Exhaustion is one of the things I feel for Ennis at the end (among many other things of course), since he's gone through so much....

I'm sure this question would be more appropriate for Safe Haven.  But, I think this questionnaire begs for this issue to be raised.  Essentially, what I'm asking is, what criteria are we using to evaluate Ennis here?

I agree about the exhaustion.  First start with "All I got time for is making a living," then add keeping an enormous secret that scares you to death to have anybody find out, then add endless yearning, clamping down of that yearning, constant paranoia, and very little joytime to show for it.  Exhausting.

I don't know what criteria I'm using, Amanda  But tell you what - I'm not sure any of my answers would have been the same in January as they are now.  I'm much surer now of Ennis's sexual orientation AND of his own awareness and even acceptance (eventually) of his sexual orientation.  So you all have shaped me.

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2006, 04:14:47 am »
Hey, what do you all think of deleting past replies to the questionnaire(s) once those replies have been incorporated and added to in subsequent replies?

I'm just trying to figure if there is a way for this to look a little less confusing-ish.  :)


Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2006, 06:45:49 am »
So many thoughts on my mind, so many questions to be answered on this thread, but never enough time, never enough...

For the moment, I just want to correct my answer to one question, because I misunderstood it:

Quote
Ever have been involved with another man if not for Jack?
         

I answered yes, if the other man would be Jack-like: leading Ennis. But I thought instead of Jack, not after Jack's death. In Ennis younger years, instead of Jack, given that Jack and Ennis had never met, my answer is still yes, he could have been involved with another (Jack-like) man.
But if the question means after Jack's death, then the answer is no.


Ruthlessly, I didn't forget your questions. Will answer later.

Amanda: interesting question. Also: later


On the readability:
On this thread are two questionnaries. Maybe Katherine could divide them in two threads? This would improve the clearness.
As for deleting the past replies: I like that all answers are directly one below the other. This makes it easy to compare. And with the different colours, for me it is not too confusing.

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2006, 10:10:53 am »
Hey, what do you all think of deleting past replies to the questionnaire(s) once those replies have been incorporated and added to in subsequent replies?

I think that's an excellent idea. Occasionally I've found myself getting through one whole list, only to find another one follows with someone else's answers, and I have to start all over.

Elle, if it turns out others are OK with this plan, do you want to have people delete their own past posts? Or you do it, as a moderator of this forum? Or have any moderator do it?

Now here's another question for everyone: Should people be able to change their answers? I find myself wanting to change a couple of mine -- not the whole opinion, usually, just the way I've worded it -- as I see all these other responses. That may be just me; I was the first person to respond to most of these, and I'll see that some people have interpreted some questions differently, and I want to clarify my answer in that context.

That would mean still more cumbersome copying, though. And if everybody starts fiddling, it might open a whole new can a worms. So I will defer to others' opinions.

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2006, 11:44:25 am »
I think that's an excellent idea. Occasionally I've found myself getting through one whole list, only to find another one follows with someone else's answers, and I have to start all over.

Elle, if it turns out others are OK with this plan, do you want to have people delete their own past posts? Or you do it, as a moderator of this forum? Or have any moderator do it?

Now here's another question for everyone: Should people be able to change their answers? I find myself wanting to change a couple of mine -- not the whole opinion, usually, just the way I've worded it -- as I see all these other responses. That may be just me; I was the first person to respond to most of these, and I'll see that some people have interpreted some questions differently, and I want to clarify my answer in that context.

That would mean still more cumbersome copying, though. And if everybody starts fiddling, it might open a whole new can a worms. So I will defer to others' opinions.


Katherine, I think as thread-starter, you get to decide whether we delete, who gets to delete, etc.  Or wait, who started the questionnaires?  It was someone else, right?  That person should have a say.  Whatever gets decided, maybe post the plan/method of deletion in the original post, so new people know what to expect.

As to whether people go in and change their answers - I know that sometimes people later change their posts after I've read them, and unless they alert us, I probably will never read their new update, because I've already moved past, so don't realize it's changed.  (Sorry for such an unclear sentence.)  Anyway, maybe we all could minimize our changes, and instead just admire someone else's wording and wish we'd said it that way.  Although it IS interesting when people announce a significant change of viewpoint, I think.  Anyway, I don't think anyone can stop anyone else from changing their answers, but I hope we don't feel the need to do it too much, or at least bold the heck out of the change, so we don't have to read stuff over again - I am so behind on my BetterMostiness!  :)

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2006, 11:48:04 am »
Ruthlessly:

Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental link=topic=3107.msg54510#msg54510 ate=1152219466

Regarding the harmonica:
Does Jack play "He was a friend of mine?"
          Penth -- I don't know. But it's hard to believe; I think no.

Have you listened to the voters CD where it's all strung together without the extra noises and
pauses?  If yes, then I'm surprised.  If no, then I think you'll be surprised.


No, I have not listened to the voters CD.
I think it would be over the top. Too blunt and not Ang Lee-like. And if it were that song, would not others have noticed, too? Would there not have been a lively discussion about it during the last months, like it has been about the mysterious 'I love you'?

Look, I was (and am) not saying you're plain wrong and that my perception is definitive right. Maybe you are right and I would be surprised by listening to the voters cd. That's why I wrote "I don't know, but think no". I hope we can agree to disagree on this  ;D
 

Quote

Is there any symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica twice and Ennis saying, “I wish that
harmonica would break in two"?

          Penth -- hmm, undecided. But I can't follow ruthlessly with his argumentation
as a whole. Perhaps partly.

 

What parts yes and what parts no and why?


*scrolling back to said post* Wait a minute.... ;)

First: Did I understand you correct: are you saying that Jack doesn't play "He was a friend of mine" once, but actually twice? Quoting you:
Quote
Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica at the “tent don’t look” right
and
Quote
Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica after the “untangle sheep” scene


Second:
In your argumentation you take it as given, that Jack is (symbolically) represented by the harmonica. I like this idea and think it's not wrong. But for me it is not as clear as, say, Jack=wind. And not as important as the latter.
So part of your argumentation seems far-streched to me, especially in it's appearing finalty:
Quote
Every time either Ennis or Jack hums or sings or Jack plays his harmonica, it foreshadows Jack’s death


Next:
Quote
Ennis hums a tune taught to him by his mother at the dozy embrace – Jack dies soon afterward
But the dozy embrace occurs 20 years earlier.  I know that this doesn't undermine your agrumentaion completely. It could be deliberate by Lee to show these two scenes temporally close-by (with only two other scenes in between). But this assumption is quite vague for me.


In general: something in me is very reluctant to see such good, happy, upbeat activities like singing, humming, playing the harmonica as a foreshadow of something so dark and sad: death.
In my mind it doesn't match up.
 
 


 
 

Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2006, 11:50:35 am »
I think that's an excellent idea. Occasionally I've found myself getting through one whole list, only to find another one follows with someone else's answers, and I have to start all over.

Elle, if it turns out others are OK with this plan, do you want to have people delete their own past posts? Or you do it, as a moderator of this forum? Or have any moderator do it?

Now here's another question for everyone: Should people be able to change their answers? I find myself wanting to change a couple of mine -- not the whole opinion, usually, just the way I've worded it -- as I see all these other responses. That may be just me; I was the first person to respond to most of these, and I'll see that some people have interpreted some questions differently, and I want to clarify my answer in that context.

That would mean still more cumbersome copying, though. And if everybody starts fiddling, it might open a whole new can a worms. So I will defer to others' opinions.

I am game for splitting the questionnaires into two different threads. I would like a moderator (like you, Katherine) to do it (i.e. delete the notes). I would also like to have the ability to change some of my answers. After ready others’ rationales and rethinking some things, I know my responses would be different.

As a suggestion … When we split the thread, it might be good to name it “Fun Questionnaire 2”.

Honestly, every night I have been writing more questions in hopes others will respond. I really enjoy hearing others’ opinions. I find it very fascinating. So, as an “FYI” I am starting a new thread called “Fun Questionnaire 3”.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2006, 12:01:17 pm »
Katherine, I think as thread-starter, you get to decide whether we delete, who gets to delete, etc.  Or wait, who started the questionnaires?  It was someone else, right? 

Actually, I also was the one who initiated the first questionnaire (albeit on someone else's thread). So, with that encouragement, I will go mad with power and boldly just do it.

And another big advantage of this plan is that when I split the thread, Mikaela's post wound up on top. So when I wrote an introductory post, telling how to play, it appeared several posts down. But if I can delete Mikaela's post and the one or two after that, I can get my introduction to the top.

Quote
Anyway, maybe we all could minimize our changes, and instead just admire someone else's wording and wish we'd said it that way.  Although it IS interesting when people announce a significant change of viewpoint, I think. 

Quote
I would also like to have the ability to change some of my answers. After ready others’ rationales and rethinking some things, I know my responses would be different.

OK, how about this. Let's say that if you wish you had worded something a bit more eloquently, don't bother. If you have an epiphany or conversion experience and as a result your opinion shifts drastically, by all means redo the whole questionnaire. For anything in between, use your best judgement.

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2006, 12:31:12 pm »
OK, still working on it. I deleted some of the posts, but found the computer won't let me delete Mikaela's post because it's at the top. So I PMed her and asked her to try, and in the meantime will see if there are other ways around this.

Now let me think about how best to accomplish Questionnaire 2. In moving over the new posts, I'd like to avoid the problem I created with this one, which is a lack of introductory post explaining how to do it (because the computer automatically sticks the oldest post at the top). It's a little less necessary for 2, I suppose, but it would be nice to have there.

Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2006, 12:55:22 pm »
Now let me think about how best to accomplish Questionnaire 2. In moving over the new posts, I'd like to avoid the problem I created with this one, which is a lack of introductory post explaining how to do it (because the computer automatically sticks the oldest post at the top). It's a little less necessary for 2, I suppose, but it would be nice to have there.

Can you write an introduction first and then move the others over?
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2006, 01:37:09 pm »
No, because the computer automatically puts the messages in chronological order. That's what happened here. Now I'm going to have to write the introduction at the top of Mikaela's thread, which is a little unorthodox, but ...

How about this: I'll move the posts over into a new thread, then whoever posted the first one can write an introduction at the top.

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2006, 01:41:55 pm »
Diane, since you wrote the first one, why don't you tack on an intro at the top. Be sure to tell people how to copy the questions with coding intact, and maybe suggest that they delete their old posts as they get updated.

ruthlesslyunsentimental

  • Guest
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2006, 03:23:59 pm »
No, I have not listened to the voters CD.
I think it would be over the top. Too blunt and not Ang Lee-like. And if it were that song, would not others have noticed, too? Would there not have been a lively discussion about it during the last months, like it has been about the mysterious 'I love you'?

Many others have noticed it and there have been discussions about it.  When I first noticed it, I didn’t think much about it except that it was interesting.  The first time I saw someone else bring it up was in a post by Casey Cornelius.  Then others joined in.  I don’t remember ever seeing anyone tie all of Ennis’ and Jack’s humming and singing together, though.


Quote
Look, I was (and am) not saying you're plain wrong and that my perception is definitive right. Maybe you are right and I would be surprised by listening to the voters cd. That's why I wrote "I don't know, but think no". I hope we can agree to disagree on this  ;D

OK.


Quote
First: Did I understand you correct: are you saying that Jack doesn't play "He was a friend of mine" once, but actually twice?

Yes.  There are two scenes where Jack plays the harmonica and he plays “He was a Friend of Mine” in both.


Quote
In your argumentation you take it as given, that Jack is (symbolically) represented by the harmonica. I like this idea and think it's not wrong. But for me it is not as clear as, say, Jack=wind. And not as important as the latter.
So part of your argumentation seems far-streched to me, especially in it's appearing finalty: 

I didn’t mean to say that I take it as a given.  What I was trying to do was show that there is a metaphor in the harmonica and in all of Jack’s and Ennis’ humming and singing and playing of the harmonica.  The metaphor is premised on the notion that humming, singing, and harmonica playing are all forms of wind.  There seems to be a strong consensus that Jack=wind.  Therefore, it’s appropriate to link the wind of humming, singing, and harmonica playing with Jack.

As to the finality—I’m always open to hearing other people use the tools and rules of metaphor analysis and construction to either agree or disagree with what I offer, but until then, I see no reason why one who is offering something should not “own” it and state it directly.


Quote
But the dozy embrace occurs 20 years earlier.  I know that this doesn't undermine your agrumentaion completely. It could be deliberate by Lee to show these two scenes temporally close-by (with only two other scenes in between). But this assumption is quite vague for me.

Many people see a tie between Earl’s death and Ennis’ imagination during the Lureen phone call.  These are separated by about 15 years and many, many scenes.  Many people see a tie between Ennis arriving in Signal in a truck in a green-lit sky with a paper bag with a shirt in it to the scene at the end of the movie where Ennis drives home in a truck in a green-lit sky with a paper bag with two shirts in it.  These two scenes are 20 years apart and many, many, many more scenes apart.  Many people see a connection between the scene where Ennis introduces himself to Jack as “Ennis” … “del Mar” and the scene where he introduces himself to Cassie as “Ennis … del Mar.”  I could go on and on.


Quote
In general: something in me is very reluctant to see such good, happy, upbeat activities like singing, humming, playing the harmonica as a foreshadow of something so dark and sad: death.
In my mind it doesn't match up.

I’m very confused by this.  The song Ennis hums while riding to the bear is about a dead cowboy.  The song Jack plays on his harmonica (twice) is about a dead friend.  The song Jack sings is about meeting the Lord on the final day and being taken away – this usually means death in other hymns that I know of.  Then, after all of this death humming and death playing and death singing, Ennis hums a tune and Jack dies before the boys can meet again.  And you don’t think this sounds like a metaphor foreshadowing Jack’s death?  Because humming and singing and playing the harmonica are upbeat activities?  Are the two songs that roll through the credits (“He was a Friend of Mine” and “Maker Makes”) supposed to be upbeat?  Are they not about death and loss and longing?

Then add in Ennis' comment about the harmonica breaking in two.  If humming, singing and playing the harmonica foreshadow Jack's death, then it seems logical that Ennis' comment is a foreshadowing of Jack's ashes being in two separate places.

Then add in Ennis' comment about being glad that Jack forgot his harmonica.  If the humming, singing, playing metaphor foreshadows Jack's death, then is it not highly ironic that Ennis foreshadows Jack's death himself by telling the Earl death story, right after he himself mentioned the missing harmonica ... the foreshadowing of Jack's death is missing (the harmonica), but is filled in with the Earl death story.

Honestly, with all due respect, I am confused.








Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2006, 11:49:46 am »
Ruthlessly:

Since this discussion belongs to questionnaire #2, I posted my answer on the new thread: "Fun Brokeback questionnaire #2".

Here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3148.msg55396#msg55396

Offline welliwont

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2006, 06:59:59 pm »
Last edit 2006/08/12:  one of my answers was chopped in half so I had to fix it here.  Jane
_________________________________________________________________

A - Regarding his homosexuality, would Ennis:


--  B -  Describe himself that way to others?

         Latjoreme -- Never.
         Ruthlessly ? Agreed, never.
         Jane  -  no.
         Diane ? no human way!
         Penth -- No way
         Mikaela ? No, never ever. Not unless we're talking bizarro-world Ennis.
         Barb - No, not ever.
         Amanda= No... not out loud... But, he'd be capable of formulating the thought in response to someone else's remark by the time of the conversation with Cassie in the bus station.  The "I don't get you." comment, I think, spurs Ennis to at least think about his love/attraction for Jack (i.e. his own homosexuality) first and foremost as the main reason why Cassie would never "get" him.  Also, in Lightning Flat I think everyone at the table, including Ennis, recognizes Ennis's identity as Jack's lover.
         Ellemeno -- Maybe at the end, to Alma Jr., if she asked directly and gently.  Otherwise, no.


-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself?

          Latjoreme -- Early on in the movie, no. By the end, probably yes.
          Ruthlessly ? Early, agreed.  End, slightly, possibly, maybe... but still only with fear and self-loathing.
          Jane  -  Early on, not on your f?n life!  By the end, still no.
          Diane -  No, no, no! I don?t think he?d even consider admitting to himself he would fit into that category.
          Penth -- Early on: no. Later: probably yes, and not only after Jack's death, but even before ("You ever get the feeleng...")
          Mikaela -- Yes, eventually he would use the term "queer" to himself.
          Barb - No, not to the point where he truly accepts it to be true.
          Amanda= Yes, again, by the time he has his bus station chat with Cassie and his meeting the Jack's folks.  And, yes, he'd be much more likely to use the term queer than homosexual.  Even earlier... when Ennis asks Jack about whether people on the street "know"... he's worrying that people can see/ tell that he's queer.  He almost comes right out and says this in this conversation.  It's bubbling right under the surface of being an articulate statement.  So, maybe he even can think this word- queer- to himself by the time of the "Jack Nasty" conversation... which spurs his later discussion with Jack.
          Ellemeno -- Yes, deep, deep down, from the time he was very young, and then quick turn away.


-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him?

          Latjoreme -- Yes, probably, the whole time.
          Ruthlessly ? Agreed.
          Jane  -  yes he would consider that those words might apply to him.
          Diane ? He might consider the possibility, but I don?t think he would allow himself to acknowledge that he might be gay.
          Penth -- Yes, from very early on.
          Mikaela ? Yes, from he was nine years old.
          Barb - Yes.  In his heart of hearts, he's always considered it.
          Amanda= Yes of course.  This is precisely why he brings is up to Jack on the mountain top after TS1.  It's on his mind anyway.  And, I think they're both telling each other what they want to hear... "I ain't queer..."  is a basic fib that, even if they won't admit it out loud, is undercut by their actions and obvious love/ attraction for each other.  I think this is why we're immediately shown TS2.
          Ellemeno -- Yes.

-- Notice he's attracted to men?
         Latjoreme -- Yes, since he was a kid, though he has learned to hide or repress it.
         Ruthlessly ? Agreed.
         Jane  -  yes.
         Diane ? Yes ? again, I am not sure if he would admit, even to himself that he is attracted to men.
         Penth -- Yes
         Mikaela -- Yes, most certainly. One of the reasons he's so painfully shy
         Barb - Yes, and loathe himself for it.
         Amanda= Yes he notices.  From the time he's 9 years old he notices.  Even before the Earl trauma, he was probably secretly fascinated by these two gay role models.  He may even secretly admire their courage ("tough old birds").  Anyway, he at the very least notices his attraction to Jack long before Jack's first move in TS1.
         Ellemeno -- Yes.


-- Wish he weren't?

         Latjoreme -- Sure.
         Jane  -  yes.
         Ruthlessly ? Agreed.
         Penth -- yes
         Mikaela -- Yes, or the story and film would not have been the same
         Barb - Yes.
         Amanda= Yes... until Jack dies.  Once Jack is gone I think his whole attitude towards the situation changes.  I think in the end he's so grateful to have had Jack in his life that he probably would even be willing to accept his identity as gay (at least in his head) because it was that identity that allowed Jack into his life.  Does that make any sense?  And anyway, I think an underlying theme of this film is the issue of coming-out (however tortured the route... and at least coming out to ones self).
         Ellemeno -- I feel a shift when he's coming out of the Riverton post office, a lightness to his step, right before finding the DECEASED postcard.  I think by then he's made peace with himself: he's quit with Cassie, he's written a postcard (!) to Jack telling him he's looking forward to November, he knows who he is and accepts himself.



-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn?t?

          Ruthlessly ? Absolutely
          Diane ? ABOSULETLY!! No way would he even be comfortable with the fact that he was gay.
          Latjoreme -- No, I'd say more like 65%.
          Penth -- No.
          Mikaela -- Difficult one. Yes, at certain moments in his life, especially in his younger years, I think he actually managed this, to his great relief?. But over the perspective of longer time periods, the percentage was not *anywhere* near 100%.
          Barb - He would keep trying, but he'd never succeed.
          Amanda= Of course he doesn't.
          Ellemeno -- No, he knows.  (To Alma: "I'd be GLAD to leave you alone.")



-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a gay relationship?

         Latjoreme -- Yes, sort of.
         Jane  -  no?   yes?   :-\
         Ruthlessly ? No.  No recognition ? which signifies to me that it dawns on him, that he becomes aware of it.  No.
         Penth -- Difficult. Recognizes that others would call it a gay relationship, yes
         Mikaela ?  I agree with Penth. He recognizes that others would call it a gay relationship. For his own conflicted self, he?d think of it as special and not easily boil it down to that simple term.
         Barb - I'm with Mikaela on this one.  I don't think he'd ever officially recognize it as such to himself, but I think he knows that that's how other people see it.  In fact, his knowing that adds to his denial and defiance.  e.g., "They don't know what the fuck they're talkin' about..."
         Amanda= Yes... I think that's what the whole Mexico argument was about.  Recognizing that Jack is gay... and that Ennis is gay... and that their relationship is gay.
         Ellemeno -- Sometimes he faces it (dozy embrace, joy on his face in the "look what I brought" scene, his arm around Jack in TS3), someetimes not ("...what they got in Mexico fer boys like YOU [NOT ME].)  Although, he's probably even facing it in that scene too, just not out loud.



-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a ?thing? that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name?
          Ruthlessly ? Yes, 100%
          Diane ? I agree with Ruthless 100% on both of these points. No way can he consider that this is a gay relationship ? it is an anomaly.
          Latjoreme: No, I think deep down he knows what the correct name is, but he would never say it out loud and tries not to say it to himself.
          Penth -- this is the converse of the question above (kind of). Therefore No, because he knows how it would be called by all the world and his brother.
          Mikaela ? yes and no? He will not let himself name it by it?s generally accepted name, but he does know what that name is.
          Barb - At the end, he knows it's love, even if he doesn't consciously call it that to himself.  He knows.
          Amanda= He knows what their relationship is.  He doesn't use the term relationship... but then neither does Jack and I don't think we doubt Jack's ability to comprehend what the "thing" was.  And anyway, Jack at least tells him that their relationship could be "a sweet life"... Ennis hears this and I think completely understands (but is too afraid to go for it).
          Ellemeno -- When he first uses the word "thing," he probably hasn't figured it all out, but after they develop a routine, he might not be able to imagine how it would really work for them to have an actual domestic partnership-type relationship, because other than Rich and Earl, he may not have had any modelling for it, but he knows.



-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women?

          Latjoreme -- No. He tries his best to believe that, but secretly knows it's not true.
          Ruthlessly ? I?m not sure if I?ve broken down the question into its intended subparts correctly.  Correct me if I?m wrong.  ?Believe it?s a huge exception to the rule?? ? No.  The only rules to homosexuality that he believes are that it?s wrong and equals (or deserves) death.  ?Believe ? that he?s not ?really? gay ?? ? Absolutely.  He does not believe himself to be gay.  ?Believe ? and otherwise would be attracted only to women? ? The word ?otherwise? would require him to think of himself as gay, which he does not.  He may not be attracted to women sexually, but he believes that he?s supposed to be. 
          Jane  -  hunh??
          Diane ? In Ennis? mind ? yes. I think he can not comprehend (or should I say consciously understand) why he loves Jack. IMO, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is. If it wouldn?t be for that, Ennis would believe that he would be living a ?normal? life.
          Penth -- Probably no.
          Mikaela -- No. This is what he'd wish for, but deep down he knows he's attracted to other men.
          Barb - I'm with Mikaela again on this one.
          Amanda= No, he realizes that he's not even attracted to Cassie... the type of woman who would be many a straight man's dream.  And, his love scenes with Alma are some of the most tortured I've seen in a long time.
         Ellemeno -- After Jack comes back in his life, he stops even the gentle, familiar affection he first had with Alma (when he touched her back when he entered the ranch kitchen).  And Cassie is just aggressive enough to get him, and a handy disguise, but he doesn't seem very interested to be putting the blocks to her.



-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Jack?

          Latjoreme -- Probably not.
          Ruthlessly ? Agreed.  Unless someone came along and led him to it in the same way Jack did ? build a friendship, build an intimacy, give Ennis his moment to let it all come bursting out, etc.
          Jane  -  maybe, if he was attracted to and picked up in the right way.
          Diane ? I find it highly improbable.
          Penth -- Yes, if the other man would be Jack-like: leading him. I'm with Ruthlessly on this question
          Mikaela -- No, or at least chances are very, very slim. It would require alignment of special circumstances akin to what he and Jack had, including someone to lead him into it ? and time enough alone to get comfortable.
          Barb - No.  Following Mikaela's line of reasoning, since there's no way the stars would ever align to that extent again, no.  He's too much in denial for that.
          Amanda= I agree that he'd still need someone else to make a first move.  But, probably he could have found another guy under the right circumstances.
         Ellemeno -- He's only 39 by the end of the movie.  Who knows what will come his way?


-- Blame Jack for him (Ennis) being gay?
         Latjoreme -- Not in his sexuality. See above -- he knows he already was. Not in his behavior, either; he implies this in the lakeside scene, but he's upset.
         Ruthlessly ? I dunno.  Even if Ennis recognized early on that he is attracted to men, it took Jack to bring Ennis to the point of acting on it.  So, because Ennis does not believe himself to be gay, he very well could blame Jack for bringing Ennis to the point of acting on Ennis? attraction to other fellas.
         Jane  -  no.
         Diane ? as I said above, yes.
         Penth -- No
         Mikaela -- No.
         Barb - In a way (as Ruthlessly described way better than I could), yes, I think he does.
         Amanda- no.
         Ellemeno -- No, but blame Jack for him BEHAVING gay, yes, when he's unhappy.



-- Blame Jack for keeping him nothin and nowhere?
         Latjoreme -- Not really. Again, he's lashing out in anger. He does not actually resent Jack for the way his life has gone.
         Ruthlessly ? Half and half.  Ennis knows that he?s nothin? and nowhere because he has put his ?get somewhere? and ?be somebody? on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack.  Ennis knows that?s what he?s done.  But, he probably doesn?t accept responsibility for his actions; thus, he blames Jack for it.  For the simple fact that Jack was there, Ennis just couldn?t help himself.
         Jane  -  no, not Jack, but his relationship with Jack?  Yes.
         Diane ? as I have stated before, yes. I think he sees the relationship as something that has somewhat derailed his life.  If not for Jack, he would probably still be married to Alma and living a blissful lie of a life.
         Penth -- Partly yes. "...because he has put his ?get somewhere? and ?be somebody? on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack." But this alludes on the extern circumstances (poverty for example). But not in the way that Ennis would earnestly believe Jack had ruined his life. 
         Mikaela -- No. It's difficult to generalize. Now and then Ennis may have thought along those lines in his continuous despair over his own siuation, and once he lashes out at Jack in fear of Jack leaving him, but overall I think he felt himself to be someone and to be somewhere only when together with Jack.
         Barb - Up until he finds the shirts, yes.  After that, no.  Then he blames himself.  And that's his fate - that he has to live with that regret and guilt, along with his grief, for the rest of his life.  :(
         Amanda= He blames the circumstances under which they conduct their relationship for his "nothing and nowhere" sense of himself.  But, he knows this isn't Jack's fault.
         Ellemeno -- Again, only when he's cranky.  I think Ennis loved some aspects of his life - what's the quote from the short story - "His penchant for low-paying ranch work."



-- Blame his feelings for Jack for keeping him from leading a normal life?

         Latjoreme -- Yes.
         Ruthlessly ? Agreed.  He knew he had feelings for Jack, and Ennis called those feelings a ?thing,? and he knew that those feelings, that ?thing? kept Ennis from leading a normal life ? what Ennis would perceive as normal.
         Jane  -  yes
         Diane ? same as what I just said above ... .i.e. Yes!
         Penth -- yes
         Mikaela -- Yes
         Barb - Yes.  But who among us hasn't done that, albeit not to the same extent in most cases?
         Amanda= What's a normal life?  I don't know how to answer this.
         Ellemeno -- Grinding hard work "All I got time for is making a living" is what he expects in life.    Jack mostly just brings him joy.  But the secrecy and interuptiveness of it is wearing.


-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Jack in the first place?
         Latjoreme -- No way.
          Ruthlessly ? I don?t agree.  If Ennis is like 99% of other people who fall in love (as some people have said    ;)   ), then there are certainly times when he has wished he?d never gotten involved with Jack.  Wished it as an overall defining characteristic of himself?  No.  But gone through long periods of trying to forget, get over, avoid, regret? then, yes.
          Jane  -  no f'n way!
          Diane ? No way ?. He was his one-in-a-lifetime love. Jack was the one person who could understand him.
          Penth -- No way
          Mikaela -- No. Not on your life. No. 
          Barb - I think he would wish that at certain points.  Even when all is said (and not said) and done (and not done) whenever the grief becomes practically unbearable, I think there would be a small part of him that would wish he had been spared all that pain.  But overall, no, I don't think he'd consciously wish that or want that for more than a moment or two.
          Amanda= No way.  I think Jack kept him going those 20 years and his memories of Jack will, in a way, save his life.  Can you imagine how dreary and dismal his life would have been without the excitement of Jack?  How could someone regret having a soul mate?
         Ellemeno -- No.  Again the short story, something like "suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream again.  If he lets it, the memory can warm him all day."  (Total paraphrase, sorry.)

Regarding love, does Ennis

-- Use that word when talking to Jack?
          Latjoreme -- No, obviously.
          Ruthlessly ? Agreed.
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane ? no way ? that?s completely out of his character
          Penth -- No
          Mikaela -- No, certainly not. More's the pity.  :'( 
          Barb - No.
          Amanda= No, but he comes damn close with the "Jack I swear..."  Talking to Jack's ghost at least.
         Ellemeno -- It doesn't seem like it. 



-- Use that word when talking to himself?
          Latjoreme -- No.
          Ruthlessly ? Agreed.  But he did try to get personalized vanity plates on his truck that say ?E (heart) J.?  Unfortunately, the Wyoming DMV doesn?t allow a heart character on their plates.   :laugh:
          Jane  -  no.
          Diane ? No.
          Penth -- Hm, no. But....
          Mikaela -- No, not until the very end. He's learned to use the word by then - he would have used it to himself, not only to his daughter.
          Barb - No, not about Jack.  Only about his daughters.
          Amanda= Yes, but only after Jack is dead.  And maybe for the first time during his chat with Alma Jr.
         Ellemeno -- Only during/after the conversation with Alma Jr.


-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"?
          Latjoreme -- Yes.
          Ruthlessly ? ?Notice??  Yes, occasionally, but quickly dismisses it as ?Can?t be? it?s a ?thing.??
          Jane  -  no.  Ennis is all about submersing his feelings.  I don't think he even lets them breathe.
          Diane ? Possibly. He is so cut off from his feelings and others? perceptions, I don?t know that he would be capable of picking up on something like that.
          Penth -- A very sure Yes
          Mikaela -- Yes, he is aware of the feelings and longings and behaviour
          Barb - No, not consciously.  And since that's what 'notice' means, just no.  ;)
          Amanda= Yes absolutely.
         Ellemeno -- Yes.  (The look he gives Jack as they are riding and Jack plays the harmonica seems blatant to me.)



-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?
          Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.)
          Ruthlessly ? Getting? there? plus the other interactions that follow.  Pie?ll do it to ya every time!  They shoulda bin eatin? pie up on ol? Brokeback ?steada beans.
          Jane  -  yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment.  He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation.  That is why he dropped Cassie..
          Diane ? No ? I think he realized that he loved Jack after their confrontation. The pie scene illustrates how cut off and onely Ennis has become and it is used as a way to close his relationship with Cassie.
          Penth -- I'm with Diane and Jane here: after the lake scene
          Mikaela -- No. I think he knows earlier. Is the use of that specific word the point of this question? Then not much earlier. Ennis doesn't use the word "love" till very late. 
          Barb - He starts to realize it then, but the notion doesn't solidify in his mind until he says to Alma, Jr. "This Kurt... He loves you?" and she says, "Yes, Daddy.  He loves me."
          Amanda= No, I don't know when he knew.  Maybe TS2.  But it certainly wasn't as late as the pie scene.  Again, he may not have articulated the word 'love' in his head until the end... but he was in love/ loved Jack all along.  How can you ignore or not understand an emotion like that?  Even if you can't name it?
          Ellemeno -- The pivotal importance of the pie scene is still a new concept to me.  But he knew.  YOU BET.


-- Not recognize it until his conversation with Alma Jr.?
         Latjoreme -- No, I think he recognizes in the closet at the very latest.
         Ruthlessly ? Fully recognizes it in the closet at the very earliest AND at the very latest.  Was there pie in that there closet?
         Jane  -  No, he starts to recognize it after his breakdown and Jack?s speech.
         Diane ? No ? same as what I have said above.
         Penth -- No, see above. He took a step forward: he is able to talk about it. Not about his love for Jack, but able to admit how important it is.
         Mikaela -- No. 
         Barb - Oops.  Spoke too soon.  Typical.  Yes.  :)
         Amanda= No, I think he names it at this point.  He probably knows it, again, from TS2.  He definitely recognizes it with the dry heaves at least!         
         Ellemeno -- I don't think that it's so much that it dawns on him late that he loves Jack, as much as it dawns on him late that he could have taken action to have a sweet life with Jack and that he could have not let his fear make his choices for him.


-- Recognize only in the end that, given that he and Jack were in love, that he should have made honoring that love his first priority, rather than being afraid to do so?
         Latjoreme -- Absolutely.
         Ruthlessly ? Recognize ? that he should have ? rather than??  No.  Change it to ?After the closet scene, especially during his talk with Jr., and given that Ennis now understands that he and Jack were in love, did Ennis wish that he would have been able to have overcome his fears and made his love for Jack his first priority while, after Jack?s death, still not actually dealing with overcoming his fears because there is no longer a reason to with regard to his relationship with Jack??  Then, yes.  There ain?t that much pie in alla Riverton.
         Jane  -  Yes.
         Diane ? Yes, absolutely. I think that is why he has such bitter longing ? knowing what could have been and knowing that, since Jack is gone, it will never happen.
         Penth -- Yes, yes and yes. This makes it so poignant. What might have been. And he knows it. Recognizes after Jack's death. Latest after he found the shirts, but I believe even before the shirts.
         Mikaela ? I realize I have no easy answer for this one. I have to think about it. I?m not certain Ennis ever reaches a point where he truly believes he could have managed to ?honour the love? if that meant actually living Jack?s ?sweet life ? together. The shirts still in the closet at the end remain a very compelling image ? but one that can be interpreted more than one way. (See answer to the question 2 points further down). I think if Ennis recognizes one thing, it?s that he should have made sure of showing and telling Jack straight out how he felt about him - he should have made absolutely sure that Jack did not have to die in any sort of doubt about that.
         Barb - Yes, absolutely.  That's what "I swear" means to me.  Not so much the conscious use of the word love part as the realization that had he done things differently, Jack would still be alive and they would still be, if not openly together, committed to and enjoying one another on a regular basis.
         Amanda= This is a trick two part question.  I don't think he recognizes the love only at the end (he names it at the end).  But absolutely... He'd give his right arm and more for a second chance to "honor" his love for Jack and make it his priority.
         Ellemeno -- Yes, his first priority - along with taking care of his kids.


-- Does Ennis think homosexuals deserve death?
         Latjoreme: No. He might think his dad was right that homosexuality is shameful and wrong. But I don't think he believes that if his dad did the job he was right in that case.
         Ruthlessly -- I dunno, again.  He did tell Jack that if he came to know certain things, he'd kill him.  And I don?t believe for a minute he's talking about jealousy here.  His father taught him well.
         Diane ? I agree completely with your point of view, Katherine.
         Penth -- No way. Agree with Diane and Katherine.
         Mikaela -- No. He thinks homosexuality is shameful and wrong. His upbringing taught him he should speak as if he thinks they deserve death. 
         Barb - No.  Never.  As others have said here, he's ashamed of himself for it, but he never thought Earl or Jack or any other homosexuals "deserved" death.
         Amanda= No, I think we're meant to see Ennis as a huge contrast to his father.  "We're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them."  Ennis is definitely not one of the predators responsible for the menace of predator loss.  He's horrified by his father, it traumatizes him and messes up his sense of his own identity, but he certainly doesn't agree with him.
         Ellemeno -- No, but he does have that teaching in him.  I think that when confronted - and hurt - by Jack's Mexican sex, he lashes out with what he was taught was de facto behavior, threaten a "queer" with death.



-- After Jack dies, will Ennis' homophobia and fears and shame remain intact, now that there's no longer any reason to overcome them?           
         Latjoreme: Partly. He has learned a lesson, suggested by his decision to attend the wedding and his swearing to Jack. On the other hand, I don't see him so enlightened that he'd go on to have other relationships with men (though he wouldn't anyway, because he'd still be grieving Jack).
         Ruthlessly -- I think so.  Wouldn't Alma, Sr. be the only one who would confront him?  Without his relationship going on with Jack, and without Alma to confront him, I don?t think he'd make any forward steps.  In fact, this may shut him down completely as far as intimate, relationship love goes.
         Diane ? Yes ? If anything, I see him becoming more bitter and homophobic. In his eyes, Jack was murdered for being gay.
         Jane  -  Yes I believe this, and here is my supporting document.  This is the intro to the song "The Maker Makes", written by Rufus Wainwright for our movie.  The song is the very last song played during the film, as the credits are just winding down.  Hell most of the people will have left the cinema by the time this song even starts to play!
Rufus Wainwright:
"It's called The Maker Makes 'cause it's, it's just about, it's
it's sorta a, a the flip side of someone who, who instead of
y'now discovering their homosexuality, y'know moves to
NY, and y'now gets y'know a haircut, um, they decide to
sort of stay, where they are and really forsake their uhm,
their sexuality."
         Penth -- I think he just doesn't care anymore. So my anwser would be both: yes and no. I think he is not ashamed anymore (to himself) that he loved Jack and about their relationship. But admitting it to another person - no. And for other possible relationships: I think there are no other possible relationships, so there's no need for any progress in overcoming his fears, because his fears are not important anymore.
         Mikaela -- Yes and  No. He has changed, in that he has reached a level of inner peace and acceptance about what he had with Jack, that part of the conflict in him is gone. But he has no reason to "come out" to the rest of the world any more. Quite the opposite, perhaps: Keeping silent on the subject gives him insurance that nothing or noone will have the opportunity to sullly or disparage his memories of what he had with Jack.
         Barb - Like Ruthlessly and Diane, yes, I think it would remain intact or become even more entrenched out of bitterness and regret.
         Amanda= I worry about Ennis closing that closet door.  But, I think he's a different person by the end of the film.  I think there's a glimmer of hope that he's learned a massive lesson from Jack and might be more willing to take chances.
         Ellemeno -- No, I think he had made some peace with himself around being queer (his preferred word) by the time he steps out of that Riverton post office, and more by the time he visits Jack's parents, and more by the time he comes down those stairs with the shirts, and more by the time he is putting the numbers on his mailbox, and more by the time we see those shirts hanging in his closet.

Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2006, 11:41:32 pm »
Bump!!!
 ;D
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2007, 11:10:10 pm »
Bumping in the hopes that more people might be interested in answering these great old questionnaire questions.  These were some amazing and intense discussions (there are 4 of these quesionnaires including Jack's questionnaire... they're long but worth it!).

This goes for newbies and old-timers alike.

Even if you've filled these out before...  Has your opinion changed after all this time?  After all these BetterMost discussions?

 :D
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 11:15:20 pm by atz75 »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaires
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2009, 09:16:03 am »

Bump for bump-fest! :)

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie