Author Topic: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3  (Read 11641 times)

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2006, 11:46:06 am »
Quote
When Ennis says, “You know I ain’t queer” and Jack says, “Me neither” … I honestly think they both believe it.

There was an op-ed article in Boston Globe on December 30 by Drew Limsky that described the way I understand Jack's "me neither" response so well that I kept the link. (It's a very Jake/Jack-centric piece, to be sure, and freely admits as much). It quotes the four lines the boys exchange on the mountainside after TS1, and continues:

".......this exchange seems realistically uninflected, with each character trying to outdo the other in manliness. And that's how Ledger plays it. But what Gyllenhaal does is let the tone of his voice go higher ever so slightly -- he gives the line readings a quality of boyish hurt that deftly conveys his sense of being erased."


I agree with that. IMO Jack knows he's "queer"; - he speaks the way he does, in reality denying his true self,  strictly in order to placate Ennis. But he feels a tiny sting of hurt that he should have to do that, after what they've just shared.

In the short story, it's Jack saying 3 of those 4 lines, and there he comes across as "protesting way too much" - IMO he's just obviously saying whatever he thinks it will take to calm Ennis down and keep him at Jack's side.




From the questionnaire it seems I'm the one who goes furthest in thinking that Jack had probably already had sex with (at least) one other man before he met Ennis. No knowing who, or where, or how realistic it might be that he'd already met someone else who'd shown him the ropes..... but it's not *that* unlikely. (If one were to speculate, he *did* spend the previous year up on the mountain too, so perhaps...?)

Anyway, it's no more than a hunch and a belief on my part, of course. There's no way to be sure. What I base my view on, though, is how Jack rather self-assuredly seems to know what he wants, seem to know what to do...... and gives the impression of having already come to terms with himself and his sexuality.

While still in his (normally so insecure) teens, and having grown up in a society that goes very far in condemning homosexuality, would he have shown that level of seeming self-assurance and self-acceptance if he had only felt silent attraction to other men but had *never* acted on it with another man? Wouldn't he still be in some doubt, wouldn't he strongly want to define himself as "not queer" in order to conform with expectations, for as long as possible and until he'd proven different to himself? I see a difference between Jack and Ennis there - I think Jack *would* accept and admit openly to himself that he's "queer", once he's had some sort of sexual experience with a man - in contrast to Ennis. And I do think Jack *has* accepted that about himself *before* he mets Ennis. So.......

Add to that Jack's behaviour in the scene outside Aguirre's trailer - checking Ennis out, posing against the truck - he just seems to me to be not completely inexperienced. Nor when it comes to TS1, both in his bold first action and a little later - when Ennis pushes him down. It seems to be the accepted viewer's reading of that moment that Ennis is the active one, once Jack has opened his belt buckle, but IMO Jack is just as much pulling at Ennis's arm when he himself turns around as Ennis is pushing him down. (Erm......  well, it's such a crucial scene, of course it's been carefully studied.  ::blush:: ).

The sum total of all this adds up to my belief that Jack had had some sort of prior sexual experience with another man. But trying to figure out when, where, with whom, what type of sexual experience, over how much time etc. would be crossing into pure fanfic territory. I'm sure many would say I'm waaaay in there already.

I do agree though that there is definitely much food here for a Jack-centric questionnaire!  :)


Quote
Seems like I just saw a discussion of this somewhere by someone with experience. If I run across it I'll let you know.


Perhaps that was in the "It ain't right" thread over on the Open Forum? The matter was recently discussed a bit over there.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 12:12:53 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2006, 12:09:06 pm »
would be crossing into pure fanfic territory. I'm sure many would say I'm waaaay in there already.

Not at all! Mikaela, everything you say makes perfect sense to me, and goes a long way to convincing me that you are right -- Jack's sexual background is not as unknowable as I thought. As you so persuasively argue, there's evidence to suggest he does have previous experience. His absolute self-assurance, his adroitness in the tent action (and, as you say, he's as active as Ennis in getting into position).

And to throw in one small additional clue -- notice he does NOT say "me neither" after Ennis says he hasn't had the opportunity to sin. On the contrary, Jack's "hmmmmm!" always sounds amusingly like, "Well, we'll have to do something about that, won't we?"

And I LOVE this:

Quote
But what Gyllenhaal does is let the tone of his voice go higher ever so slightly -- he gives the line readings a quality of boyish hurt that deftly conveys his sense of being erased."

I agree with that. IMO Jack knows he's "queer"; - he speaks the way he does, in reality denying his true self,  strictly in order to placate Ennis. But he feels a tiny sting of hurt that he should have to do that, after what they've just shared.

That is so true. I think I've registered that subconsciously, but never really noticed it until you point it out now. Thanks!

Offline welliwont

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2006, 12:56:53 pm »

There was an op-ed article in Boston Globe on December 30 by Drew Limsky that described the way I understand Jack's "me neither" response so well that I kept the link. (It's a very Jake/Jack-centric piece, to be sure, and freely admits as much). It quotes the four lines the boys exchange on the mountainside after TS1, and continues:

".......this exchange seems realistically uninflected, with each character trying to outdo the other in manliness. And that's how Ledger plays it. But what Gyllenhaal does is let the tone of his voice go higher ever so slightly -- he gives the line readings a quality of boyish hurt that deftly conveys his sense of being erased."



From the questionnaire it seems I'm the one who goes furthest in thinking that Jack had probably already had sex with (at least) one other man before he met Ennis. No knowing who, or where, or how realistic it might be that he'd already met someone else who'd shown him the ropes..... but it's not *that* unlikely. (If one were to speculate, he *did* spend the previous year up on the mountain too, so perhaps...?)



Hi Mikaela:

any chance you could share that link with us?

uhm,  I answered yes that I thought Jack had previous man on man experience.  I did not elaborate on my answer bcz I thought that the questionnaire was meant to be short yea and nay answers.  But to elaborate further, you already voiced most of my reasons for thinking that....  The fact that he makes the first move.....  the fact that when Ennis flips him over he stays in the position....  The fact that when he is in the throes of passion he shows by his facial expressions and his performance there how intensely he is feeling,  and by the fact that he pushes back against Ennis.  So oh yeah, I think he has done this before, and beyond the initial pain at the onset I think he moves beyond the pain and and on to pleasure.

J
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2006, 01:46:26 pm »
Jane, here's the link:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/12/30/a_beautiful_doomed_dream/


Quote
uhm,  I answered yes

Ooops! I'm very sorry.  I really should have gone back to re-read before I wrote that.  :-\


Quote
I did not elaborate on my answer bcz I thought that the questionnaire was meant to be short yea and nay answers.

That was my initial understanding too - but then I've slipping up into longer explanations more than once. Perhaps with future questionnaires, a reminder to try to keep the replies brief and to the point should be added? It's very easy to end up making each question a discussion thread onto itself. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as long as everyone is on the same page about it......


Quote
Jack's "hmmmmm!" always sounds amusingly like, "Well, we'll have to do something about that, won't we?"

That IS what it sounds like!  8) And even though Jack is a dreamer with a vivid imagination, - yes, I do definitely  think he had previous experience and knowledge of exactly what might be done about that.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 01:48:22 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2006, 02:14:15 pm »
That was my initial understanding too - but then I've slipping up into longer explanations more than once. Perhaps with future questionnaires, a reminder to try to keep the replies brief and to the point should be added? It's very easy to end up making each question a discussion thread onto itself. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as long as everyone is on the same page about it......

I agree. When I answered my own questions in the first questionnaire, I tried to keep the answers to as few words as possible. Then when other people answered longer, I wished I'd been more explanatory myself.

I don't care which way we go as long as we all do the same thing. Maybe keep it to a sentence or two, with further discussion to be pursued later if needed?

Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2006, 03:35:41 pm »
I agree. When I answered my own questions in the first questionnaire, I tried to keep the answers to as few words as possible. Then when other people answered longer, I wished I'd been more explanatory myself.

I don't care which way we go as long as we all do the same thing. Maybe keep it to a sentence or two, with further discussion to be pursued later if needed?

I like to see the questionnaires as a jump off point for further discussion ... that is if everyone is cool with that.

I agree with that. IMO Jack knows he's "queer"; - he speaks the way he does, in reality denying his true self,  strictly in order to placate Ennis. But he feels a tiny sting of hurt that he should have to do that, after what they've just shared.

In the short story, it's Jack saying 3 of those 4 lines, and there he comes across as "protesting way too much" - IMO he's just obviously saying whatever he thinks it will take to calm Ennis down and keep him at Jack's side.

I do agree with the “protesting way too much” idea … I have stated that before in previous threads. My take on that … maybe it is the same as yours … is when someone does that, they have something to hide. They are trying to convince others (and sometimes themselves) that what they are saying is true.

Quote
Anyway, it's no more than a hunch and a belief on my part, of course. There's no way to be sure. What I base my view on, though, is how Jack rather self-assuredly seems to know what he wants, seem to know what to do...... and gives the impression of having already come to terms with himself and his sexuality.

While still in his (normally so insecure) teens, and having grown up in a society that goes very far in condemning homosexuality, would he have shown that level of seeming self-assurance and self-acceptance if he had only felt silent attraction to other men but had *never* acted on it with another man? Wouldn't he still be in some doubt, wouldn't he strongly want to define himself as "not queer" in order to conform with expectations, for as long as possible and until he'd proven different to himself? I see a difference between Jack and Ennis there - I think Jack *would* accept and admit openly to himself that he's "queer", once he's had some sort of sexual experience with a man - in contrast to Ennis. And I do think Jack *has* accepted that about himself *before* he mets Ennis. So.......

Add to that Jack's behaviour in the scene outside Aguirre's trailer - checking Ennis out, posing against the truck - he just seems to me to be not completely inexperienced. Nor when it comes to TS1, both in his bold first action and a little later - when Ennis pushes him down. It seems to be the accepted viewer's reading of that moment that Ennis is the active one, once Jack has opened his belt buckle, but IMO Jack is just as much pulling at Ennis's arm when he himself turns around as Ennis is pushing him down. (Erm......  well, it's such a crucial scene, of course it's been carefully studied.  ::blush:: ).

The sum total of all this adds up to my belief that Jack had had some sort of prior sexual experience with another man. But trying to figure out when, where, with whom, what type of sexual experience, over how much time etc. would be crossing into pure fanfic territory. I'm sure many would say I'm waaaay in there already.

I do agree though that there is definitely much food here for a Jack-centric questionnaire!  :)

 
For me, the story doesn't help interpret the movie on this point. In the story, yes, their TS1 is portrayed as a mutually initiated, first-time-for-both thing. If anything, Ennis is the more aggressive one ("ran full-throttle"). The movie is different -- Jack initiates, Ennis stops to consider, then decides to go for it. Also, the movie goes out of its way to show Jack overtly checking out Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer. Also, in the movie Jack makes at least a couple of mini-moves before his big one in the tent: 1) his ministrations to Ennis after the bear and 2) "the point is, we should both be sleeping in this camp."

This is one of those cases in which I think the movie characters are more distinguishable and well developed than the story characters.

This would be a good issue to take up in a Jackcentric questionnaire (Amanda?). IMO, Jack has accepted his sexuality long before he shows up at Aguirre's trailer. Whether he's actually had sex, I don't know. But he knows that about himself -- hell, his parents may already know it -- and has accepted it to the point that when he gets there and sees the hottie he's going to spend a summer alone with ... well, the gears are already turning there in the parking lot. Thus his self-consciously cowboy-macho poses and his rear-view-mirror checking out.

Mikaela and Katherine – I am using both of your quotes because I think you are very close to being on the same page.

I think I stated (somewhere on this link??) that, initially, I was convinced Jack had been with another man (men?) prior to Ennis. It could be that after having read the short story my POV shifted. That is why (and I agree with you on this), I should not always use the story as a way to interpret the film … even the screenplay. Body language, vocal styles, etc. all make a different statement than what is reflected on the page.

This is what I feeling strongly about (and it dwindles with every note I write!!):
•   Jack is in touch with his attraction to men (I think that is a uniformed consensus).
•   Jack is definitely checking out Ennis from the time he steps out of his car at Aguirre’s parking lot (I think that is also a uniformed consensus).

I have to admit that sometimes I over think things. My first impression was that, yes, Jack did have experience.

Here are (portions) of two reviews:

Rolling Stone Magazine: Peter Travers

Ennis is quiet, but whiskey and Jack's talk about his rodeo riding loosens Ennis' tongue and his inhibitions. One cold night they share a bedroll. Jack gives the impression of experience. For Ennis, this is nothing he'd done before, but no instructional manual is needed.

Newsday: Jan Stuart

The two strangers are, conventionally speaking, made for each other. Jack is personable, playful, a talker. Ennis is stoic and repressed, parceling out the gift of speech mostly to express how tired he is of eating beans.

Their simmering mutual attraction overtakes them by surprise, in a violent coital burst. But it haunts them long after they have settled, hundreds of miles apart, into fitfully content married lives: Jack with a Texas businesswoman (Anne Hathaway) and Ennis with an adoring Montana house drudge (Michelle Williams).


So what does this tell me? This film is intentionally ambiguous. Every person who watches it takes away something different. That is the only thing I know for sure. Beyond that, my opinion shifts on a daily basis. So, as of today … I am going to stick with the idea that Jack did not have sex with a man prior to BBM … but that is not to say he didn’t want to. That is also not to say I won't change my mind tomorrow.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2006, 04:46:38 pm »
Well, the film is intentionally ambiguous, all right. But as for what review say ... I believe people on this board know far, far, far more about BBM than any movie critic (except of course for the people on this board who ARE movie critics; I know there's at least one). So although reviews were helpful to me to sort out my thoughts early on, and the really well written reviews were helpful even longer than that, by now I wouldn't expect to find much in a review that would change my opinion about something.

(In fact, some of the reviews, even by critics I ordinarily respect, get some things way wrong.)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 07:46:27 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2006, 07:41:32 pm »
Quote
My take on that … maybe it is the same as yours … is when someone does that, they have something to hide. They are trying to convince others (and sometimes themselves) that what they are saying is true.

Yep, I agree with that. Short story Jack is mainly trying to convince Ennis.


Quote
I don't care which way we go as long as we all do the same thing. Maybe keep it to a sentence or two, with further discussion to be pursued later if needed?

I agree with that - though a simple "yes" or "no" is entirely fine as a reply, too!  :D


Quote
This film is intentionally ambiguous.

And did they ever manage to live up to their intentions!! So many matters can be interpreted more than one way - there's food for reflection and discussion for forever and a day. It's wonderfully gifted storytelling, managing to involve and engage and move the viewer every little step of the way.


Quote
Ennis is stoic and repressed, parceling out the gift of speech mostly to express how tired he is of eating beans.

LOL. Who said reviews couldn't point out entirely new insights? I never noticed this being Ennis's main gripe.  ;)



Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2006, 07:50:20 pm »
I agree with that - though a simple "yes" or "no" is entirely fine as a reply, too!  :D

Well, now that we're all agreed about the groundrules, how about somebody coming up with another questionnaire!

Quote
Quote
Ennis is stoic and repressed, parceling out the gift of speech mostly to express how tired he is of eating beans.
LOL. Who said reviews couldn't point out entirely new insights? I never noticed this being Ennis's main gripe.  ;)

LOL. I missed that the first time. Yeah, he's so stoic and repressed, he never even actually says it!




Offline welliwont

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2006, 07:55:21 pm »
Well, now that we're all agreed about the groundrules, how about somebody coming up with another questionnaire!



uhm,  I don't think we've all weighed in on this one, better put it in the form of a question??   (*snicker, snicker* yuk yuk!*)   :laugh:


Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."