Life and this movie are messy

[Jeff Wrangler]

Possiby it--the spitting--works differently in different situations.

Clearly John Twist spitting into his cup just at that point is intended to convey disgust or even contempt. But what are we to make of Jack spitting just before he introduces himself to Ennis? Possibly dislike for Joe Aguirre--they've just left his office--but that seems a little weak to me.

As the man said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and I would add--sometimes a spit is just a spit. 

[David]

Speaking of spitting...  Last month when I was at a classic car show, three young guys, all of 18 yrs old maybe were walking toward me.   Classic handsome farm bred boys, well fitting faded jeans, tight tee shirts, clean cut, and then two of them spit on the ground.   My smile sank.   Then as they passed me, I just happen to glance at their rears, and all of them had visable round cans of chewing tobacco in their rear pants pockets!    UGH!

It's bad enough young kids are starting smoking when they know how bad it is and worse, how hard it is to quit, but chewing Tobacco causes mouth cancer, gum and tooth loss.  A few baseball players have had parts of their tongue removed due to cancer.   Stupid kids.   

[serious crayons]

Regarding whether spit is just spit:

My opinion is that if there's anything in the movie that stands out enough for us to notice and comment on it, it most likely means something. And if an object (or, in this case, an action) is significant in one scene, then the object or action is also significant in another scene -- not necessarily in the exact same way, but in a way not unrelated to the first way.

Am I getting too convoluted?

Yes, in real life spit is sometimes -- pretty much always -- just spit. And snow is snow and buckets are buckets and bears are bears and moons are moons and beans are beans and fans are fans and cowboy hats are cowboy hats. Not in the movie. The filmmakers may occasionally let logs disappear and microphone cords show, but they are very very careful when it comes to symbolism and metaphors, and everything is worked out really thoroughly. So they wouldn't make a big deal of connecting a symbol to a meaning in one case and then in another scene -- oh well! -- just stick it in for the hell of it, or let it exist because, after all, people do spit and encounter bears and use fans and wear hats. (Note: OK, I guess I wouldn't try to argue that, say, every single cowboy hat on every single extra in the movie has some shattering resonance. But if a hat is prominent enough to be noticable, it's probably so for a reason. If in the last scene we see a huge fan propped on Ennis' bed, it's not just because the nights have been hot lately. And if someone conspicuously spits ...)

It's fun to figure out which symbols mean what, but I don't think they're there just as a fun puzzle, like a sudoku (sp?) game. They're supposed to deepen our understanding and appreciation of the movie, often on an intuitive level. So if a symbol conflicts with your intuitive or emotional reaction, Mel, then that means your reaction is wrong.  Just kidding!!!! It means that maybe the symbol is supposed to represent something in a different way than people are saying. For you, anyway. In other words, I think you should trust your emotional instincts first.

[Sheriff Roland]

Regarding whether spit is just spit:
 So if a symbol conflicts with your intuitive or emotional reaction, Mel, then that means your reaction is wrong.  Just kidding!!!!

Here's a fascinating observation: (and I might get in trouble for this) but of those who have expressed opinions on this thread, most of the people who are prone to accept that spitting is just spitting in a lot of this movie's various scenes, are ... men ... while of those who prefer to accept that every little bit of the movie (particularly if it seems out of place to their movie viewing experience) should have some additional meaning are ... women ... - So maybe spitting is more of a guy thing?!?!

Actually the point I wanted to make with this post is that, on this subject, it is likely that we will have to agree to disagree.

[YaadPyar]

Regarding whether spit is just spit:

My opinion is that if there's anything in the movie that stands out enough for us to notice and comment on it, it most likely means something. And if an object (or, in this case, an action) is significant in one scene, then the object or action is also significant in another scene -- not necessarily in the exact same way, but in a way not unrelated to the first way.

Just another thought on this.  In much the same way that one might decorate a room - put certain things in certain places in certain ways because it just looks or feels right, I think set designers and filmmakers do the same thing.  They design things a certain way not necessarily with a symbolic intent or conscious effort, but because it feels right. 

And maybe a character spits 'cause it's just what he would do in a scene.  And we can derive meaning from it - maybe it seems like the right thing because we're understanding something about this character and his motivations, etc., but it's likely happening 'cause it feel right.  I'm not arguing against the significance of things, but thinking instead about how they came about.

[Front-Ranger]

Roland, I don't know how to answer your question. It was a guy who made the movie but I don't think he directed them to spit just to reinforce the fact that they are guys.

I wanted to ask everyone, why was Ennis shown spitting (and rather violently at that) just when Jack is backing his truck out of the driveway (such as it is) in the post-divorce scene?

[Mikaela]

In other words, I think you should trust your emotional instincts first.

I agree. And I'm fine with agreeing to disagree too - I don't think it's ever possible to reach a consensus on any one discussion topic related to a film with such consistently high level of intentional ambiguity as BBM has.

That said, my first instinct was to see each instance of spitting as signs of contempt, frustration, and/or anger. Mainly contempt.  And that's how I still see it.

why was Ennis shown spitting (and rather violently at that) just when Jack is backing his truck out of the driveway (such as it is) in the post-divorce scene?

An expression of immense helpless frustration over the whole situation, IMO.


And when Jack spits on the way down the mountain, to me it's as if he's shouting "To hell with it!" in frustration and angry confusion.

And as for Ennis's spitting when he has it out with Jack over Mexico - yes, contempt. And Jack sees it that way too - it's part of the reason why he gets ticked off.

Of course the spitting habit may have been very common in that time and place, I'm not denying that - but it's not something the actors would just do because it was an ordinary thing to do IMO - it must be based on dicussions on how to best  portray their characters in these specific and (mostly) very emotional and crucial scenes. So personally I can't imagine the spitting not having a clear intention and message in those scenes above and beyond showing a cultural habit of the times.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Roland and Celeste,

Thank you for your posts.

Tell you what. The truth is, sometimes I feel that if someone sat down and deliberately planned everything in this film in which someone somewhere has seen symbolism or significance, we'd still be waiting for the film to be made.

 

[Bucky]

Roland and Celeste,

Thank you for your posts.

Tell you what. The truth is, sometimes I feel that if someone sat down and deliberately planned everything in this film in which someone somewhere has seen symbolism or significance, we'd still be waiting for the film to be made.

 

   

Jeff,

I completely agree with your post.  When Ennis and Jack were spitting in the movie I didn't read anything special into it.  I just thought that was what guys in the west in their time frame did.  I guess both of them had been brought up to believe that spitting made them look more manly or something.

[Mikaela]

The truth is, sometimes I feel that if someone sat down and deliberately planned everything in this film in which someone somewhere has seen symbolism or significance, we'd still be waiting for the film to be made.

I completely agree! I've thought so too, on more than one occasion.


Only......  There'll never be agreement among fans on *which* of all the possible symbols are actual intentional and deliberate symbols from the filmmakers' side.  Perhaps we'll get to know more about that and have some confirmation either way, concerning the spitting even, when commentary tracks are released with a special edition DVD.    (Please, please, please...there has to be one such, and I hope soon!)