Author Topic: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2  (Read 20286 times)

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« on: July 06, 2006, 02:51:27 pm »
MODERATOR'S NOTE: Hey everbody, this topic was split off a previous thread (which is why I'm writing this introductory note in ruthlesslyunsentimental's post). Others have already entered their questionnaire answers. To fill out the questionnaire:

1) Hit "quote" in the previous post.

2) Go to your new message and REMOVE the "quote" and "/quote" coding around it so it can be copied again easily by the next person, with the color coding intact.

3) Answer questions in a new color (or in a color that hasn't been used by the people immediately above you).

4) Your post, with your responses, will be deleted eventually, as others copy yours and add their own. So if you undergo a major change of opinion and want to change your answers, repeat steps 1 and 2 and make the required changes in your answers (for brevity's sake, try not to do this just for the sake of minor changes of wording).

Have fun! If so inspired, feel free to start a new questionnaire of your own.

Latjoreme/Katherine



Regarding the harmonica:
Does Jack play "He was a friend of mine?"
          Diane - IMO, there is no melodic line. I can't imagine that this is the case.
          Jane  -  no idea.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  It can be hard to catch in watching the film because of other noises and dialogue that separate the various parts of his playing.  But, all of Jack’s harmonica playing is on the Academy voters CD (there’s a link to it somewhere on these boards, but I cannot remember where I found it).  On this CD, you hear all of Jack’s playing without the extra noises and without the extra dialogue.  And, it’s all strung together in order.  It’s crystal clear.  The lyrics for the notes he plays are: (during the “tent don’t look right” scene) “He….. was a friend of mine…. He…. (stop) He… (stop) Was a friend of mine… (stop) Just kept on mov…” and (during the ride back from untangling the sheep) “He was a friend of mine… Every time I hear his name… I just…” (then he just blows in and out for a couple of seconds as if trying to find his tune).  Jack’s playing is out of tune, but it’s unmistakable on the voters CD.

Is there any symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica twice and Ennis saying, “I wish that harmonica would break in two"?
          Diane – I say no. I bring this up because there was an argument that the harmonica symbolized “breaking Ennis and Jack in two” … Obviously, I don’t buy it.
          Jane  -  no.
          Ruthlessly - Yes there is.  It’s a foreshadowing of Jack being separated in two when half of his ashes went to Texas and half to Wyoming.  It’s not about the two of them breaking in two.  Every time either Ennis or Jack hums or sings or Jack plays his harmonica, it foreshadows Jack’s death.  Singing, humming, and harmonica playing are all forms of wind.  Jack is symbolized by the wind.  Ennis hums “The Cowboy’s Lament” (aka “The Streets of Laredo”) about a dead cowboy as he rides to meet the bear, Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica at the “tent don’t look” right, Jack sings “Water-Walking Jesus” (“I know that I shall meet you on that final day… WWJ, take me away”), Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica after the “untangle sheep” scene, Ennis is glad Jack forgot his harmonica at the river reunion scene (because it would foreshadow Jack’s death, and then Ennis foreshadows Jack’s death himself when he tells the Earl death story), Ennis will go to the church social with the girls if he doesn’t have to sing (he doesn’t want to foreshadow Jack’s death), Ennis hums a tune taught to him by his mother at the dozy embrace – Jack dies soon afterward.

Regarding Randall:           
Is Jack checking out Randall or is Randall checking out Jack?
          Diane – I think it is both. However, I think Randall is more overt than  Jack.
          Jane  -  Randall checking out Jack.
          Ruthlessly – I think Randall checks out Jack overtly, Jack knows it and is trying to avoid it.

When Randall mentions the cabin … what is Jack thinking?
          Diane – IMO, he is thinking about Ennis … especially when he looks straight ahead …. as if  he is longing to be with the man he loves. However, he also has needs that Ennis is not fulfilling … so I think he’s beginning to consider having an affair.
          Jane  -  His exacts words / thoughts are "Why couldn't this be Ennis, suggesting that?"
          Ruthlessly – He’s thinking everything you both said and a lot more.

Ennis’ vision of Jack being murdered:
Does Ennis’ finding out that Jack had been seeing another man reinforce his belief that Jack was murdered?
          Diane – Yes. That feeds into his homophobia. In Ennis' mind, people found out that Jack was having sex with a man and was killed because of it.
          Jane  -  It re-inforces his fear, IMO he does not have the belief 100%, he has the fear.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  As long as we keep it all in Ennis’ mind.

Is there a significance that Ennis envisions a man stomping on Jack’s groin?
          Diane – Absolutely, yes. Mirrors the image he saw with Earl. This signifies the most overt thing … the sexual organ (I am trying to be delicate here … difficult to do) … having sex with a man is societal suicide.
          Jane  -  I dunno, never gave it much thought.
          Ruthlessly – I agree with Diane.

Even though the reality of Jack’s death is ambiguous, IYO, was Jack murdered or did he die in an accident?
          Diane – Hate to say this, but I think he was murdered.
          Jane  -  Well I prefer to believe that he died in an accident, but I realize that I could be wrong as the overwhelming consensus (four-to-one that it was gay bashing) is that he was murdered.
          Ruthlessly – Accident.  All of the direct evidence points straight to it.  All of the evidence for murder hinges on one point only – something that Ennis conjured up in his mind due to his fears.

When Ennis finds out (when visiting Jack's parents) that Jack was seeing another man, his face turned pale. IYO, was Ennis feeling betrayed? Was he thinking, "OMG! Jack was murdered"?
          Diane - I think Ennis felt betrayed at the lake scene, but not so much here. It was the knowledge that Jack was seeing a man at the same time he died and the belief that Jack was, indeed, murdered.
          Jane  -  I tried to read his expressions, but I could not.  But I can still answer this question, I guess.  I think when he heard about the other guy, he felt betrayed, because Jack was steppin' out.
          Ruthlessly – Betrayed, no.  Jack murdered, no.  He was thinking “I really blew it.  I could have had that with Jack, but I wouldn’t give it to him.  So he tried to fulfill his dream with someone else.”  With this kind of emotional self-beating, betrayal and murder are far from his mind.  He’s only concentrating on the love that was between them.

Let’s keep adding to these questions! This is too much fun!   :)


Thanks for adding all these great questions!  And I think it was totally appropriate for latjoreme to move these questions to their own thread to give them a life of their own.



« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 02:27:46 am by latjoreme »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2006, 11:42:51 am »
Note: this post is an answer to ruthlessly regarding a post of his, which was posted before the questionnaries were divided to several threads. So ruthlessly's post I refer to is still on the questionnaires part 1 thread. But my answer doesn't fit over there, because it refers to questionnaire #2. So I post it here, hoping you don't mind the jumble. If you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, feel free to ignore  :)

Note #2: my answers to questionnaire 2 are gone on this new thread, but still intact on the old (first) thread. I will copy and paste them.


Yes.  There are two scenes where Jack plays the harmonica and he plays “He was a Friend of Mine” in both.

I listended to both scenes today (first time ever I put my DVD in just for the purpose to check some specific scenes). Both times, he plays the same tune (wouldn't swear an oath on it, but am pretty sure). I still can't hear any similarity to "He was a friend of mine", but if it is this song, then it's played twice.

Quote
Many people see a tie between Earl’s death and Ennis’ imagination during the Lureen phone call.  These are separated by about 15 years and many, many scenes.  Many people see a tie between Ennis arriving in Signal in a truck in a green-lit sky with a paper bag with a shirt in it to the scene at the end of the movie where Ennis drives home in a truck in a green-lit sky with a paper bag with two shirts in it.  ........I could go on and on

I got the picture.

Quote
And you don’t think this sounds like a metaphor foreshadowing Jack’s death? Because humming and singing and playing the harmonica are upbeat activities?  Are the two songs that roll through the credits (“He was a Friend of Mine” and “Maker Makes”) supposed to be upbeat?  Are they not about death and loss and longing?

I never said the songs you mentioned (the ones hummed and sung by Ennis or Jack) are funny, upbeat songs with hilarious lyrics. And of course the songs at the end of the credits are not upbeat. So music can be sad.

But the occasions you itemized are upbeat activities. The the singing/humming/playing person is in a good mood when doing so:
Ennis humming on his way back to camp (before he encounters the bear)
Jack playing the harmonica and Ennis joking about it
Water-walking-Jesus-scene: Jack singing and Ennis doing "percussions" on the coffeepot: barely a downbeat mood
Ennis making the "as long as I don't have to sing"-comment: he is cheerful, on his way to Jack and makes a joke to his children
Dozy embrace: lovable, tender, at peace
I could go on and on...
 

Quote
Then add in Ennis' comment about the harmonica breaking in two.  If humming, singing and playing the harmonica foreshadow Jack's death, then it seems logical that Ennis' comment is a foreshadowing of Jack's ashes being in two separate places.
This is one thing I agree. Being not in consencus with your "Every singing etc. foreshadows Jack's death"-statement, I would phrase it slightly different: "If there is a connection between Jack and the harmonica, then it sems logical that Ennis's comment is a foreshadowing of Jack's ashes being in two seperate places".
I absolutely see the connection between Ennis's comment and the divided ashes, because I agree about the connection between Jack and the harmonica. As I said before.

Back to my original answer, it was: hmm, undecided. But I can't follow ruthlessly with his argumentation as a whole. Perhaps partly. The above paragraph is a part where I can follow you.
I'm not undecided anymore regarding to the original question, whether there is symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica and Ennis's comment. I thought about it the last two days (thanks to your further inquiry). My answer is now a yes to the symbolism.


Quote
Then add in Ennis' comment about being glad that Jack forgot his harmonica.  If the humming, singing, playing metaphor foreshadows Jack's death, then is it not highly ironic that Ennis foreshadows Jack's death himself by telling the Earl death story, right after he himself mentioned the missing harmonica ... the foreshadowing of Jack's death is missing (the harmonica), but is filled in with the Earl death story.
Yes, if...
This is a circular argument: you use the music metaphor to explain the scene and you use the explanation of the scene (and it's possible irony) as an evidence for the metaphor.


Quote
Honestly, with all due respect, I am confused.
Is it so confusing when different people have different opinions  ;)?
After reflecting this topic once more since your answer yesterday: Bottom line is, I still can't buy your statement in it's finalty. But you're not wrong, too. I guess this is another topic where we could debate endlessly, like the debate about Jack's death. But seeing that this movie is open to interpreation in so many ways and on so many layers, we could just agree to partly disagree again.

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2006, 03:52:27 pm »


Is it OK to throw in a few comments about someone else's answers?  I hope so.  I'll just quote the relevant parts.


Concerning the symbolism in the harmonica --


          Amanda=  I think his "loyalty" to a crushed harmonica is quite significant.  He loves his harmonica and won't give up on it even though it's no longer in tune.  And even though the harmonica is flattened it's resilient and still works.  All of these things seem significant to how Jack functions in the relationship with Ennis.  He's loyal and persistent throughout the relationship despite disappointments and obstacles and he won't give up on something he loves.  The fact that we see him playing it twice shows that even Ennis's protests won't get him to stop.... he really loves his harmonica, so there's almost nothing that will get him to give it up.  As a "wind" instrument it's almost part of him.  It is curious that he didn't bring a harmonica to the "prayer of thanks" camping trip... but maybe he hadn't expected to be camping at that juncture... since it seemed like quite a spontaneous trip out to the mountains that time.

I think this is a wonderful symbolism to find in the harmonica!  Following this line, I think it's especially poignant as to exactly when the two times are that he plays the harmonica and what Ennis says in each scene.  About not bringing it along to the reunion river scene, in this metaphor of the harmonica showing us Jack's faithfulness to keeping the two of them together, Jack didn't need the harmonica at the river because it is here that Jack first verbalizes an offer to Ennis that would keep them together.  And here they "exchange new vows" as they define the parameters of their relationship once again.


Quote
When Ennis finds out (when visiting Jack's parents) that Jack was seeing another man, his face turned pale. IYO, was Ennis feeling betrayed? Was he thinking, "OMG! Jack was murdered"?
         
          Amanda= I think it's both.  I think his grief and love though overpower his feelings of betrayal (he may have guessed Jack was having an affair with a guy anyway... he probably was shocked that it had gotten so far as Jack inviting the other fellow to live with him... that's pretty significant).  I think the shirts/ Jack's Mom help wipe away the feelings of betrayal.  But, I'm sure it helped reinforce his fears about the murder.  I think Ennis is also shocked by how much Jack's parents know about everything.  His secret with Jack was no secret at all.

The last two sentences are really wonderful.  I've always felt from the Twist family kitchen scene that his parents knew about Jack's homosexuality and that Jack also told them about Ennis (and then the fact that he told them about another guy) -- they knew.

And so Jack's vow up on the mountain, "It's nobody's business but ours," was not kept.  Interesting.



« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 03:54:00 pm by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2006, 05:26:35 pm »
And so Jack's vow up on the mountain, "It's nobody's business but ours," was not kept.  Interesting.

Wow, good observation!  Well, I think that chat after TS1 was mainly a lot of anxiety-ridden BS.  I think the "I ain't queer... Me neither" comments are just posturing combined with loads of denial.  And, maybe Jack at that moment does think he truly means that it's nobody else's business.  Either that or he's telling Ennis something/ anything that he thinks might encourage Ennis to continue with the relationship.  But, I think if a relationship goes on for as long as theirs does it's almost impossible to keep it from impacting other people (as it clearly impacts their families, wives and kids).  There's probably no real practical way to avoid a major relationship somehow touching other people... almost no relationship exists in a vacuum.  And, moreover, if the relationship is going to grow into a commitment (like Jack wants) then it really does become the business of other people (at least the business of Jack's parents if the idea is for Jack and Ennis to live with them).

This whole issue of Jack's parents knowing- and Ennis finding out that they know demonstrates to Ennis here that his two greatest fears have come true.  One of his greatest fears is that people will know he's queer/ know about his love for Jack and the other is his fear of homophobic violence.  And, by this juncture in the film both of these things are bearing down on Ennis.  Not only do the Twists know, but Lureen, Aguirre (unbeknownst to Ennis), Alma, and maybe Alma Jr. all know Ennis's secret.  And, since he's convinced himself, for the most part, that Jack was murdered in much the same way as Earl, then this aspect of his fears has come true for him also.  All the sneaking around did not prevent these things from coming to pass (if we look at things from Ennis's point of view and accept for the moment that Jack was murdered).  And, on the topic of people knowing his secret... I think Ennis is learning that it's not always quite so scary for people to know as he might have expected.  Mrs. Twist demonstrates such a deep degree of sympathy and respect towards Ennis that hopefully she's showing him that some people would and do honor his love for Jack.
 :-\
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2006, 06:31:38 pm »
Note: this post is an answer to ruthlessly regarding a post of his, which was posted before the questionnaries were divided to several threads. So ruthlessly's post I refer to is still on the questionnaires part 1 thread. But my answer doesn't fit over there, because it refers to questionnaire #2.

Note #2: my answers to questionnaire 2 are gone on this new thread, but still intact on the old (first) thread. I will copy and paste them.

Penth, I am SO SORRY (picture me standing aghast over a pile of broken peanut jars). I split that thread late at night, which I should have known was a big mistake. Sorry to make you reply to something on a different thread, sorry to make you paste your responses in again. I would try to fix it by moving the old posts over here, but clumsy as I am I'm afraid I'd screw it up even more (I don't know how to move posts to a different established hread, only to a whole new thread), so I'm afraid we'll have to stand it.

If there's anything I can do to help ... in fact, if you haven't pasted your answers yet, I'm be happy to do it for you. I can't split threads worth a damn -- pretty good with cut and paste, though.

(Sorry also to Ruthlessly, the other participant in the now divided conversation, and to Mikaela, who had to write her answers on a post without Penth's answers intact.)

I think Ennis is learning that it's not always quite so scary for people to know as he might have expected.  Mrs. Twist demonstrates such a deep degree of sympathy and respect towards Ennis that hopefully she's showing him that some people would and do honor his love for Jack.

Yes, he probably never dreamed of such a compassionate reaction -- the idea that anybody could know without being horrified or disgusted or whatever probably never occurred to him.

For that matter, I bet Ennis is pretty surprised by Mr. Twist's reaction. The old man indicates from the get-go that he "knows where Brokeback Mountain is." And he is unquestionably a rude and obnoxious jerk, both from his behavior and from what Jack has said about him. Yet despite his unpleasant personality -- pppfffftttt -- he doesn't seem all that bothered by Jack's homosexuality. That's arguable, I know, because his "thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot," kind of hints that Jack breached "family values." Yet Mr. Twist seems to have been more or less open to the idea of Jack bringing Ennis or another fella up there to lick that damn ranch into shape. He gets that kind of crazy glint in his eye -- "Ennis del Mar, he used to say ..." -- but shows surprisingly little outright objection. He seems to reserve most of his scorn for the fact that Jack's idea never came to pass.

So here's Jack's actual father, a man already established as a cold and neglectful jerk, confronting a son planning to leave his wife and ranch up with another man -- yet he's not threatening murder or anything close! On the contrary, he seems most disapproving of Jack's failure to follow through with it!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 06:35:49 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2006, 07:17:31 pm »
Not to worry, Katherine - I think it's all worked out well enough in the end. About the questionnaires, I mean.  :)


Quote
This whole issue of Jack's parents knowing- and Ennis finding out that they know demonstrates to Ennis here that his two greatest fears have come true.  One of his greatest fears is that people will know he's queer/ know about his love for Jack and the other is his fear of homophobic violence.  (  )  And, on the topic of people knowing his secret... I think Ennis is learning that it's not always quite so scary for people to know as he might have expected.  Mrs. Twist demonstrates such a deep degree of sympathy and respect towards Ennis that hopefully she's showing him that some people would and do honor his love for Jack.

Oh, yes! There was some discussion recently about this on another thread - and lazy sod that I am, I went and dug out my old post:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2940.msg50865#msg50865

Several good posts in that thread, I think - including from Katherine (are there *any* threads without insightful posts by Katherine?)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 07:20:13 pm by Mikaela »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2006, 07:18:30 pm »
For that matter, I bet Ennis is pretty surprised by Mr. Twist's reaction. The old man indicates from the get-go that he "knows where Brokeback Mountain is." And he is unquestionably a rude and obnoxious jerk, both from his behavior and from what Jack has said about him. Yet despite his unpleasant personality -- pppfffftttt -- he doesn't seem all that bothered by Jack's homosexuality. That's arguable, I know, because his "thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot," kind of hints that Jack breached "family values." Yet Mr. Twist seems to have been more or less open to the idea of Jack bringing Ennis or another fella up there to lick that damn ranch into shape. He gets that kind of crazy glint in his eye -- "Ennis del Mar, he used to say ..." -- but shows surprisingly little outright objection. He seems to reserve most of his scorn for the fact that Jack's idea never came to pass.

So here's Jack's actual father, a man already established as a cold and neglectful jerk, confronting a son planning to leave his wife and ranch up with another man -- yet he's not threatening murder or anything close! On the contrary, he seems most disapproving of Jack's failure to follow through with it!

Oh, I totally agree with this.  John Twist is annoying and seems to enjoy needling Ennis... but you get the sense that he'd do this to anyone and everyone. If Jack introduced Lureen to his father I can imagine John Twist being a jerk to her too (he's a jerk to Jack, probably to his wife, etc.... As you said, it's just an unfortunate aspect of his personality and not directed at anything specific to do with Jack's sexuality... or his irritability is not exlusively channeled into homophobia).  His reaction to Ennis most certainly doesn't seem as bad as it could be or as bad as Ennis would expect either.

Thanks for the link Mikaela!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 07:23:32 pm by atz75 »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2006, 08:27:28 pm »
Several good posts in that thread, I think - including from Katherine

(insert whole row of blushing icons here)

Wow, that's really nice of you to say, Mikaela. But let me return the compliment! The best insights come when everybody's flinging insightful posts back and forth and building off each other's, as is so often the case here. I am continually amazed by what I have learned on these boards. I staggered out of my first viewing of Brokeback thinking, "Hmm ... wonder if that dead sheep had some kind of symbolic meaning?"

Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2006, 08:59:14 pm »
Yes, he probably never dreamed of such a compassionate reaction -- the idea that anybody could know without being horrified or disgusted or whatever probably never occurred to him
For that matter, I bet Ennis is pretty surprised by Mr. Twist's reaction. The old man indicates from the get-go that he "knows where Brokeback Mountain is." And he is unquestionably a rude and obnoxious jerk, both from his behavior and from what Jack has said about him. Yet despite his unpleasant personality -- pppfffftttt -- he doesn't seem all that bothered by Jack's homosexuality. That's arguable, I know, because his "thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot," kind of hints that Jack breached "family values." Yet Mr. Twist seems to have been more or less open to the idea of Jack bringing Ennis or another fella up there to lick that damn ranch into shape. He gets that kind of crazy glint in his eye -- "Ennis del Mar, he used to say ..." -- but shows surprisingly little outright objection. He seems to reserve most of his scorn for the fact that Jack's idea never came to pass.

So here's Jack's actual father, a man already established as a cold and neglectful jerk, confronting a son planning to leave his wife and ranch up with another man -- yet he's not threatening murder or anything close! On the contrary, he seems most disapproving of Jack's failure to follow through with it!

Oh, I totally agree with this.  John Twist is annoying and seems to enjoy needling Ennis... but you get the sense that he'd do this to anyone and everyone. If Jack introduced Lureen to his father I can imagine John Twist being a jerk to her too (he's a jerk to Jack, probably to his wife, etc.... As you said, it's just an unfortunate aspect of his personality and not directed at anything specific to do with Jack's sexuality... or his irritability is not exlusively channeled into homophobia).  His reaction to Ennis most certainly doesn't seem as bad as it could be or as bad as Ennis would expect either.

Gosh, guys ... I don't know if I can agree with what you are saying. (although I am finding what I thought was true is not necessarily correct … so I have been changing my mind a lot recently).

John Twist was a jerk ... we all know this to be true. However, he had a very troubled relationship with Jack. Jack indicated this a few times .... "Beats workin' for my old man. Can’t please my old man no way …” and “ My ol’ man was a bullrider, pretty well known in his day, though he kept his secrets to himself. Never taught me a thing. Never once come to see me ride.” What I take from this is a constant feeling that anything Jack tried to do or wanted in his life was going to be beaten down by his father. Knowing that Ennis was Jack’s lover (I am making the assumption that John T. was fully aware that Jack was gay), he wanted to destroy Ennis. When he goes into his speech about “Jack used to say, ‘Ennis Del Mar,’ he used to say ….” Mr. Twist is speaking angrily, accusatory. Note that after he says this and before he goes into the “other fella ..” speech, he spits.  The definition for spit is:

1 a (1) : to eject saliva as an expression of aversion or contempt (2) : to exhibit contempt

IMO, this is what John Twist is doing. He is disgusted with Jack. He is disgusted with Ennis. He doesn’t want to give up Jack’s ashes because he knows this is what Jack wanted. He also knows this is what Ennis wants. BBM is a symbol of Jack and Ennis’ love. Mr. Twist represents the societal disdain for homosexuality. So, even in Jack’s death, Mr. Twist is going to be the controlling jerk of a bastard that he has always been. As usual, Jack can’t please his “ol’ man no way …”   … Mr. Twist is going to do the opposite of what Jack wanted. When Mr. Twist says to Ennis angrily, “Tell you what, we got a family plot and he’s goin’ in it …” it as if he spitting again. An explanation point to his hateful attitude toward Ennis and Jack.
Diane

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2006, 10:09:34 pm »
Don't get me wrong... John Twist is an awful person.  Abusive, spiteful, mean-spirited, etc.  I'm certainly not defending him as a character.  But, it does sort of seem like he would have let Jack move up to the ranch with Ennis or the "other fellow".  He would have complained about it, made fun of them, picked on them, grumbled about it, etc.  But still... it appears that he may have been willing to let it happen.  I also think that once he got used to John Twist, Ennis would have been more than capable of standing up to him if he had decided to move to Lightning Flat with Jack.
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Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2006, 10:50:47 pm »
Don't get me wrong... John Twist is an awful person.  Abusive, spiteful, mean-spirited, etc.  I'm certainly not defending him as a character.  But, it does sort of seem like he would have let Jack move up to the ranch with Ennis or the "other fellow".  He would have complained about it, made fun of them, picked on them, grumbled about it, etc.  But still... it appears that he may have been willing to let it happen.  I also think that once he got used to John Twist, Ennis would have been more than capable of standing up to him if he had decided to move to Lightning Flat with Jack.

I see your POV. (I certainly can agree that Ennis would have laid John Twist flat if he crossed him too much). I just don't know .. I guess I'll never know .. if Mr. Twist would have allowed Jack and Ennis to move in together. John saw it as Jack's "dreaming" and that it would never happen. Who knows what the jerk would have done if it was to "actually come to pass".
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 12:31:52 am »
In my view, the fact that Mr. Twist is a jerk is the whole point. He's the anti-Mr. del Mar.

Mrs. Twist is compassionate. But she's Jack's mother, and mothers (at least stereotypically) love their children no matter what.  Ennis' mother was apparently sympathetic, too.

But Mr. Twist has been depicted as an asshole from the beginning. Though Jack never says so, we vaguely surmise that Mr. Twist ran Jack off because Jack is gay. (Subtly underscored by Jack's "your folks run you off, too?" as if hoping they ran Ennis off because Ennis is gay.)

In contrast, at first we hear mostly good things (as Mikaela insightfully pointed out) about Mr. del Mar. He died in an accident (automatic sympathy). And in contrast to Jack, Ennis speaks respectfully of his dad. Then WHAM -- turns out he actually evil, a man who would torture someone to death for being gay. Imagine the hell that would ensue if Mr. del Mar found out about Ennis.

Now we meet Mr. Twist. Sure enough, he IS a jerk. Rude, spitty, belligerent, looks like that scary farmer in American Gothic. If Ennis' dad, respectable on the surface, was in fact a murderous homophobe, imagine what a monster this guy must be.

Then he says, in effect, that he knows Jack was gay ("I know where Brokeback Mountain is -- spit ") and resents Jack considering himself too special to be buried in the "family plot." We might assume there's a figurative link here -- Jack thought he could break society's rules and be gay, rather than do the classic straight-man family-values thing, but Mr. Twist wants to hold him to the family "plot," as in story line. Surely a jerk like this must also be homophobic. On the other hand, it's possible he just means that Jack got snooty after he got some money and "thought he was too 'special.'"

Then the old man starts talking about Jack's plans. "'Ennis del Mar,' he used to say ..." he looks a little loony, yet the recollection is so touching that Ennis, despite the circumstances, faintly smiles. But not for long -- immediately old man Twist twists the knife, telling him: hey, pal, Jack had moved onto another guy, you were out of the picture. So Mr. Twist is trying to make Ennis feel even worse, in the midst of his grief. Definitely not a nice guy.

But wait -- is he a homophobic jerk? His jab at Ennis -- cruel as it is -- indicates that he accepts the relationships for what they are, reacts on their terms, understands that Ennis would feel bad about being dumped. Iin other words, his cruelty is no different from the cruelty he might exhibit to a heterosexual couple.

Also, Mr. Twist's main point of contention seems to be that Jack never got around to licking the damn ranch into shape (which Mr. Twist clearly would have welcomed -- the ranch appears rundown, AND we've heard Jack imply his folks could use a hand). Mr. Twist doesn't give a damn if Jack leaves his wife for Ennis del Mar or some ranch neighbor a his -- as long as he came to help. Mr. Twist's main complaint isn't that Jack wanted to ranch together with another man.

On the contrary, Mr. Twist's complaint is that Jack didn't!

And in any case, whatever resentment he holds doesn't provoke him to kick Jack out of the family (plot) but to insist that he stay in it.

He's a mirror image of Mr. del Mar, a gay man's father, who is respectable on the surface but evil toward Earl and Rich. Mr. Twist, a gay man's father, is an asshole on the suface but would at least grudgingly tolerate his own Earl and Rich.

Add this to the two old guys walking together in town and the guys with the black hat and the white hat in the bus station and all the other examples of how it might actually have worked for Jack and Ennis.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 02:11:30 am by latjoreme »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 12:59:13 am »
But Mr. Twist has been depicted as an asshole from the beginning. Can't please him, no way. Ran Jack off. Never taught Jack a thing, never once went to see him ride. Though Jack never says so, we vaguely surmise that Mr. Twist ran Jack off because Jack is gay. (Subtly underscored by Jack's "your folks run you off, too?" as if hoping they ran Ennis off because Ennis is gay.)

Holy cow Katherine!  That was quite a post!  Yup, that's pretty much how I see it.  He's an asshole, but not necessarily or primarily a homophobic asshole.  Not mincing words here.
 ::)

I love your point about John Twist insisting that Jack stay in the family plot.  And, I do agree that his comment about "being too damn special" may be about Jack's newfound wealth even more than a jab at his sexuality.

I also am fascinated by your point that I quoted above.  I've never pondered Jack's early comment about the idea of parents running a kid "off."  This seems like a very good explanation of that situation and Jack's comment.  It's an odd idea... the idea and the image of parents essentially kicking a kid off the property (that's how I think about it when Jack says this).  It's interesting that this is Jack's immediate assumption when Ennis says he "was" from ranch people.

Anyway, Mr. Twist is probably extra mad that Ennis didn't come work/ live at Lightning Flat now that he's met Ennis and sees that he's a strong and seemingly very capable guy who probably really could have helped whip the ranch into shape.  I'm only sort-of half kidding here.  I think Mr. Twist was a terrible threat to Jack as a kid/ teenager (the abuse/ running him off), but by the time Jack was grown, Mr. Twist seems like a lot of hot-air.  John Twist could still be mean and nasty, but Jack with his smart Mother to back him up were probably pretty capable of dealing with him on many different levels.  Essentially, if Jack decided to move there it seems possible that John Twist wouldn't be able to do a whole lot to stop it anyway.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 02:00:14 am »
I love your point about John Twist insisting that Jack stay in the family plot.  And, I do agree that his comment about "being too damn special" may be about Jack's newfound wealth even more than a jab at his sexuality.

Somebody suggested that in an earlier post. I used to be convinced that the family plot thing meant John Twist was homophobic. Now I think it's a red herring --  meant to imply a jab at Jack's sexuality but actually just the opposite.

(The running off thing came from someone else, too. That's what I meant when I said in a post to Mikaela earlier this evening that this is so much about bouncing ideas off each other.)

So I realized -- wait a minute, Mr. Twist is threatening and abusive and neglectful and rude and all that bad stuff. But the one thing he isn't, at least not in any obvious way, is homophobic! What could that mean? When you come right down to it, the very fact that he might be despicable, yet not homophobic, means more than the fact that nice Mrs. Twist isn't homophobic. And because he's the father of a gay man, as was Ennis' evil dad, it's an unmistakable parallel. Much as he might resent Mr. Twist's rudeness, this must have been more stunning to Ennis than Mrs. Twist's kindness. Mr. Twist is an asshole -- yet very pointedly not a homophobic asshole.

In other words, I don't just think he's not primarily homophobic or not necessarily homophobic. I now think we're meant to notice that he's just plain not homophobic. So, in Ennis' mind: how is that possible? It's the very opposite of what his own dad taught him to expect. (Jack's relative lack of internal homophobia is probably not unrelated.)

In other words, if Jack's dad had been a nice, sympathetic guy who wasn't homophobic, that would be one thing. In fact, we might not fully trust it. Maybe he just seems nice. But the very fact that Mr. Twist is an asshole and yet still not homophobic -- doesn't express his assholeness through homophobia -- is far more powerful. It's like Jack not looking when Ennis is bathing makes the point more strongly than if Jack had simply looked.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 04:05:48 am by latjoreme »

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 04:06:13 am »
In my view, the fact that Mr. Twist is a jerk is the whole point. He's the anti-Mr. del Mar.


Wonderfully put and written!  You summed up my feelings exactly.  And you saved me lots of typing time.  Thanks!

So I guess this is my shortest post ever, huh?



Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 05:44:23 am »
In other words, I don't just think he's not primarily homophobic or not necessarily homophobic. I now think we're meant to notice that he's just plain not homophobic. So, in Ennis' mind: how is that possible? It's the very opposite of what his own dad taught him to expect. (Jack's relative lack of internal homophobia is probably not unrelated.)

In other words, if Jack's dad had been a nice, sympathetic guy who wasn't homophobic, that would be one thing. In fact, we might not fully trust it. Maybe he just seems nice. But the very fact that Mr. Twist is an asshole and yet still not homophobic -- doesn't express his assholeness through homophobia -- is far more powerful.

Wow, I've loved the various posts here on this subject. Thoughtprovoking to say the least.

One of the things that strike me now, is that the Mr. Twist/Mr. Del Mar contrast that you point out Katherine, is especially difficult to notice due to the audiences' preconceived notions, which we share with Ennis. Like Ennis we've heard a lot of bad stuff about the man before we meet him, and when we do meet him he looks and behaves in a way that make you think Nasty would fit well as his true family name..... Of course he's a homophobe. We completely expect Mr. Twist to share Ennis's fathers opinions on homosexuality. We, and Ennis, are prone to interpret every word and gesture of his in that light.

I wonder how long it took Ennis to piece your realization together? I don't think it happened while he was at Lightning Flat, despite him hearing what Mr. Twist had to say. He was too preoccupied with his grief, too stunned by the news that Jack was leaving him - had already made plans to do so on their last meeting that spring - and too saddened by Mr. Twists refusal to let the ashes go. There was too much else weighing on his mind - he still believes or fears Mr. Twist *must* surely be a homophobe when he leaves, I think. More than anything, I see it in the way Ennis holds the shirts when he gets back down - shielding them somewhat from Mr. Twist, sending him a worried, pained look. Imagine him being denied those shirts - imagine them being torn out of his hands!  Ennis thinks the man may be expected to put up a fuss about him taking the shirts with him - he still expects homophobia to reveal itself in the most painful way possible.

But it doesn't.

And then Mrs. Twist continues to show him nothing but respect, understanding and compassion.

The meeting with Mr. Twist, especially, serves as a painful get-down-to-earth reminder. Ennis fears everyone can look at him and *know*. The meeting with Mr. Twist shows him that even if that were so, for most of those people there are other hang-ups, other more important issues in the world - that they in fact, even when faced directly with the issue of homosexuality, may not consider that a big deal compared to other matters. It's a humbling experience. The monumental matter that Ennis let ruin his and Jack's chance of happiness - not that big a deal at all to many others?

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I see how Ennis came away from the Twists with much new food for reflection on how other people might approach someone being "queer", much thanks to Jack who told his parents as much as he did about Ennis and gave them the opportunity to respond accordingly when they meet Ennis. In addition to the confirmation of Jack's love for him that Ennis carries back home,  it will help him come to terms with who he is and realize - in his heart - that far from holding the commonly shared opinion on the matter, his father was far out to one side of the scale, in the miniority. I wonder if that sort of reflection could happen when the pain and grief about Jack was still so raw.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 05:49:36 am by Mikaela »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 06:01:30 am »
Penth, I am SO SORRY (picture me standing aghast over a pile of broken peanut jars).

No need to worry, Katherine. I don't mind.

To stay true, I did just copy and paste my original answers and resited the temptation to alter some of it or to phrase them different. Only in one case I added a short sentence.




Regarding the harmonica:
Does Jack play "He was a friend of mine?"
          Diane - IMO, there is no melodic line. I can't imagine that this is the case.
          Jane  -  no idea.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  It can be hard to catch in watching the film because of other noises and dialogue that separate the various parts of his playing.  But, all of Jack’s harmonica playing is on the Academy voters CD (there’s a link to it somewhere on these boards, but I cannot remember where I found it).  On this CD, you hear all of Jack’s playing without the extra noises and without the extra dialogue.  And, it’s all strung together in order.  It’s crystal clear.  The lyrics for the notes he plays are: (during the “tent don’t look right” scene) “He….. was a friend of mine…. He…. (stop) He… (stop) Was a friend of mine… (stop) Just kept on mov…” and (during the ride back from untangling the sheep) “He was a friend of mine… Every time I hear his name… I just…” (then he just blows in and out for a couple of seconds as if trying to find his tune).  Jack’s playing is out of tune, but it’s unmistakable on the voters CD.
          Katherine -- That sounds perfectly plausible. I haven't heard it, myself.
          Mikaela -- Not in a way that is obvious or easily discernible in the film, IMO 
          Amanda= Yes, I think he does.  I only realized this after someone on one of the boards mentioned it.  And, now I definitely hear it that way.
          Penth -- I don't know. But it's hard to believe; I think no.


Is there any symbolism in Jack playing the harmonica twice and Ennis saying, “I wish that harmonica would break in two"?
          Diane – I say no. I bring this up because there was an argument that the harmonica symbolized “breaking Ennis and Jack in two” … Obviously, I don’t buy it.
          Jane  -  no.
          Ruthlessly - Yes there is.  It’s a foreshadowing of Jack being separated in two when half of his ashes went to Texas and half to Wyoming.  It’s not about the two of them breaking in two.  Every time either Ennis or Jack hums or sings or Jack plays his harmonica, it foreshadows Jack’s death.  Singing, humming, and harmonica playing are all forms of wind.  Jack is symbolized by the wind.  Ennis hums “The Cowboy’s Lament” (aka “The Streets of Laredo”) about a dead cowboy as he rides to meet the bear, Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica at the “tent don’t look” right, Jack sings “Water-Walking Jesus” (“I know that I shall meet you on that final day… WWJ, take me away”), Jack plays “He was a Friend of Mine” on his harmonica after the “untangle sheep” scene, Ennis is glad Jack forgot his harmonica at the river reunion scene (because it would foreshadow Jack’s death, and then Ennis foreshadows Jack’s death himself when he tells the Earl death story), Ennis will go to the church social with the girls if he doesn’t have to sing (he doesn’t want to foreshadow Jack’s death), Ennis hums a tune taught to him by his mother at the dozy embrace – Jack dies soon afterward.
          Katherine -- I can buy that.
          Mikaela -- playing it twice - no, not IMO. The "wish it would break" - yes. 
          Amanda= Yes, there's symbolism in everything in the film, or so it seems.  There's a discussion about this topic in the Jack and the Wind thread for more in-depth discussion of this.  I think, like others that it's foreshadowing and it's a relatively subtle way to reference the title of the movie (along the lines of the Timmy conversation).  In the wind thread, I mentioned the idea that even though Ennis talks about the harmonica breaking in two... but it actually doesn't.  Jack says it got flattened instead.  I think his "loyalty" to a crushed harmonica is quite significant.  He loves his harmonica and won't give up on it even though it's no longer in tune.  And even though the harmonica is flattened it's resilient and still works.  All of these things seem significant to how Jack functions in the relationship with Ennis.  He's loyal and persistent throughout the relationship despite disappointments and obstacles and he won't give up on something he loves.  The fact that we see him playing it twice shows that even Ennis's protests won't get him to stop.... he really loves his harmonica, so there's almost nothing that will get him to give it up.  As a "wind" instrument it's almost part of him.  It is curious that he didn't bring a harmonica to the "prayer of thanks" camping trip... but maybe he hadn't expected to be camping at that juncture... since it seemed like quite a spontaneous trip out to the mountains that time.  About the word "flattened" re: the harmonica as opposed to breaking in two and the notion of foreshadowing.  Well,  "flattened" maybe is a reference to a flattened tire... maybe this is a hint towards the accident option when it comes to how Jack dies.  Maybe I'm stretching here.
                 Penth -- hmm, undecided. But I can't follow ruthlessly with his argumentation as a whole. Perhaps partly. Addition some days later: changed my mind from undecided to yes, regarding the symbolism.
 


Regarding Randall:           
Is Jack checking out Randall or is Randall checking out Jack?
          Diane – I think it is both. However, I think Randall is more overt than  Jack.
          Jane  -  Randall checking out Jack.
          Ruthlessly – I think Randall checks out Jack overtly, Jack knows it and is trying to avoid it.
          Katherine -- Randall checks out Jack, Jack isn't sure how to respond but is somewhat intrigued.
          Mikaela -- Randall is checking out Jack. Jack is very aware of it and seems uncomfortable,  partly because it's very awkward with both their wives sitting right there - but to me there clearly seems to be more to his discomfort than that. 
          Amanda= I know my position here isn't quite so popular.  But, I definitely think Jack and Randall are both checking each other out and Jack is being very, very bold in almost flirting outright with Randall even at the table.  I really do think he's playfully goofing around with the "wanna dance?" question that could be directed at either Randall or LaShawn.  I think on the bench Jack becomes much more thoughtful and a little more reserved because he realizes that this really is a new opportunity and there's no doubt in my mind that that shot of him looking like his thoughts are a million miles away is meant to indicate that he's pondering what this would mean for his relationship with Ennis.  This, I think, is the symmetrical situation re: Ennis and Cassie.  But, Jack isn't going to waste his time having a fake affair with a woman.  Following the "miserable fucking life" argument all of this I think is meant to show the growing strain in the relationship and Jack's increasing desparation.
                Penth -- Randall checking out Jack. Jack notices.

When Randall mentions the cabin … what is Jack thinking?
          Diane – IMO, he is thinking about Ennis … especially when he looks straight ahead …. as if  he is longing to be with the man he loves. However, he also has needs that Ennis is not fulfilling … so I think he’s beginning to consider having an affair.
          Jane  -  His exacts words / thoughts are "Why couldn't this be Ennis, suggesting that?"
          Ruthlessly – He’s thinking everything you both said and a lot more.
          Katherine -- Ditto.
          Mikaela --  another big Ditto from me.
          Amanda- up until this more serious proposition on the bench, I think Jack is sort of having fun with some light flirting.  Once Randall mentions fishing everything changes.  He's immediately reminded of Ennis by the fishing idea and worries about the implications of this for his relationship with Ennis. He definitely gets that having an affair with a man (as opposed to a woman) is way outside the rule book when it comes to Ennis.
                  Penth -- Thinking about Ennis and regretting that it is not Ennis who makes this suggestion. And starting to consider about it.

Ennis’ vision of Jack being murdered:
Does Ennis’ finding out that Jack had been seeing another man reinforce his belief that Jack was murdered?
          Diane – Yes. That feeds into his homophobia. In Ennis' mind, people found out that Jack was having sex with a man and was killed because of it.
          Jane  -  It re-inforces his fear, IMO he does not have the belief 100%, he has the fear.
          Ruthlessly – Yes.  As long as we keep it all in Ennis’ mind.
          Katherine -- Yes.
          Mikaela --  Yes. It's in the short story, obviously - but apart from that in the film it confirms to Ennis that Jack was in fact engaged with something back home that would have caugth the attention of people of the same disposition towards gays as Ennis's father had and acted upon.
          Amanda- Yes.
            Penth -- Yes. But Ennis's fears were fuled when he finds out about Jack seeing other men, which is at the lake scene, latest. Not in the Twist home. If you mean especially when he learns about Randalll ("some other fella") at the Twist home, then no for the movie but a  yes for the book.


Is there a significance that Ennis envisions a man stomping on Jack’s groin?
          Diane – Absolutely, yes. Mirrors the image he saw with Earl. This signifies the most overt thing … the sexual organ (I am trying to be delicate here … difficult to do) … having sex with a man is societal suicide.
          Jane  -  I dunno, never gave it much thought.
          Ruthlessly – I agree with Diane.
          Katherine -- Me too.

          Mikaela --  Yes. First time I noticed that, I saw the image of Earl before my inner eye, remembering just how he was mutilated. Those gay-bashers may not have said much but they knew how to get their point across.  :( :( :(
          Amanda- Yes, it shows how much he's blending his awful memories of Earl with his fears about Jack.
           Penth -- Never saw this in the movie. Too many tears.


Even though the reality of Jack’s death is ambiguous, IYO, was Jack murdered or did he die in an accident?
          Diane – Hate to say this, but I think he was murdered.
          Jane  -  Well I prefer to believe that he died in an accident, but I realize that I could be wrong as the overwhelming consensus (four-to-one that it was gay bashing) is that he was murdered.
          Ruthlessly – Accident.  All of the direct evidence points straight to it.  All of the evidence for murder hinges on one point only – something that Ennis conjured up in his mind due to his fears.
          Katherine -- I'm mostly agnostic; I think we're not meant to know. But if I had to say one or the other, I think there's more evidence for murder.
          Mikaela -- We're not meant to know. But in my heart of hearts, I think he was murdered. (I have been wondering about Jack's state of mind after he came home from the last meeting with Ennis. He was feeling very down, obviously - and he "drank a lot". In all probability he didn't get around to actually taking action asking Lureen for a divorce although he'd told his parents he would..... I think Jack may have been in a state of mind where he got careless. Perhaps not deliberately taunting fate nor deliberately attracting the wrong sort of attention, but just not able to give enough of a damn about it anymore. )  
          Amanda- Yes, I prefer to keep it ambiguous.  But, I tend to lean towards the murder scenario... I think Lureen's story is too far-fetched.  But, I also think Ennis might be projecting his own fears here.  But, at the end of the day, he knew Jack better than Lureen did (even though she obviously spent a lot more time with him) and Ennis might just have more of a gut instinct no matter what when it comes to anything to do with Jack.
                Penth -- Phew. Tough one. I tend to accident, most times. But only "tend to".  We're all in the same situation like Ennis: never knowing for sure. I just can't make my mind up for a definite (definite for myself)  answer. First I was in the "murder-camp", then changed to the "accident-camp", now it changes back and forth.

When Ennis finds out (when visiting Jack's parents) that Jack was seeing another man, his face turned pale. IYO, was Ennis feeling betrayed? Was he thinking, "OMG! Jack was murdered"?
          Diane - I think Ennis felt betrayed at the lake scene, but not so much here. It was the knowledge that Jack was seeing a man at the same time he died and the belief that Jack was, indeed, murdered.
          Jane  -  I tried to read his expressions, but I could not.  But I can still answer this question, I guess.  I think when he heard about the other guy, he felt betrayed, because Jack was steppin' out.
          Ruthlessly – Betrayed, no.  Jack murdered, no.  He was thinking “I really blew it.  I could have had that with Jack, but I wouldn’t give it to him.  So he tried to fulfill his dream with someone else.”  With this kind of emotional self-beating, betrayal and murder are far from his mind.  He’s only concentrating on the love that was between them.
          Katherine -- He is devastated and heartbroken at the news that, unbeknownst to him, the love of his life was thinking about moving on. And guilty, because he knows why Jack would have done so. In the story, this makes him immediately think of murder, but if you ask me that would not be uppermost in his mind at the moment.
          Mikaela -- All that Katherine said. He is feeling devastated at this confirmation that he was losing Jack anyway, - *not* betrayed. He knows *why* Jack was leaving and that he himself carries a lot of responsibility for that, and also knows that his own behaviour may have led Jack to actions that ultimately caught the attention of those shadowy figures he believes killed Jack..... It all adds to his already monumental regret and guilt and grief. (I know Ang Lee originally intended to include another scene of Jack-bashing at this point. I'm very glad he didn't, - I think the scene works better without us being spoon-fed what Ennis is thinking there.) 
          Amanda= I think it's both.  I think his grief and love though overpower his feelings of betrayal (he may have guessed Jack was having an affair with a guy anyway... he probably was shocked that it had gotten so far as Jack inviting the other fellow to live with him... that's pretty significant).  I think the shirts/ Jack's Mom help wipe away the feelings of betrayal.  But, I'm sure it helped reinforce his fears about the murder.  I think Ennis is also shocked by how much Jack's parents know about everything.  His secret with Jack was no secret at all.
              Penth -- Betrayed? Don't know.  Hurt? yes

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 06:07:29 am by Penthesilea »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 08:08:22 pm »
More than anything, I see it in the way Ennis holds the shirts when he gets back down - shielding them somewhat from Mr. Twist, sending him a worried, pained look. Imagine him being denied those shirts - imagine them being torn out of his hands!  Ennis thinks the man may be expected to put up a fuss about him taking the shirts with him - he still expects homophobia to reveal itself in the most painful way possible.

But it doesn't.

And then Mrs. Twist continues to show him nothing but respect, understanding and compassion.

The meeting with Mr. Twist, especially, serves as a painful get-down-to-earth reminder. Ennis fears everyone can look at him and *know*. The meeting with Mr. Twist shows him that even if that were so, for most of those people there are other hang-ups, other more important issues in the world - that they in fact, even when faced directly with the issue of homosexuality, may not consider that a big deal compared to other matters. It's a humbling experience. The monumental matter that Ennis let ruin his and Jack's chance of happiness - not that big a deal at all to many others?

Heya,

Yes, I think Ennis holds the shirts awkwardly rolled up in a gesture of protectiveness.  I've said in other threads that I'm sure things would have gotten really ugly if Mr. Twist had tried to somehow get the shirts away from Ennis.  Personally, I don't think Mr. Twist would have been able to do this.  Anyway, I also think that Ennis rolled the shirts up in a way so that only Jack's blue shirt is really visible while his own shirt is very much hidden.  This I think shows he's still very worried about a homophobic reaction.

And, about this other (very good) point about their queer-ness not being a big deal to many/ some people (as opposed to Ennis's somewhat overblown fear about intense homophobic reaction at every turn)... I think it's extremely important that in this case the people who don't seem to take it as such a big deal are Jack's parents.  Some of the most important people in their lives (had they lived together) seemingly would have accepted them (even if grudgingly on the part of Mr. Twist).  They aren't just random people who might be OK with Jack and Ennis being gay... These were potentially Ennis's "in-laws."
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Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2006, 08:55:41 pm »
Okay guys ... you know I have to jump in here about this ...

But Mr. Twist has been depicted as an asshole from the beginning. Though Jack never says so, we vaguely surmise that Mr. Twist ran Jack off because Jack is gay. (Subtly underscored by Jack's "your folks run you off, too?" as if hoping they ran Ennis off because Ennis is gay.)

I may be nitpicking here … but Jack does not say, “your folks run you off, too?” He simply asks him “your folks run you off?” To me, that has a different connotation. This may go back to the rationale that, IMO, Jack didn’t have sexual experiences with men prior to BBM. I know that I am in the minority regarding this topic. When I first saw BBM, I questioned if Jack had slept with men before meeting Ennis. I obviously changed my POV. My reasoning has to do with the following:
•   Jack lived in a very homophobic state during a homophobic time.
•   Jack was only 19.
•   IMO, Jack understood he was attracted to men but was also homophobic … certainly not to the degree that Ennis was, but homophobic just the same.

Don’t kill me here folks, but please humor me for a minute. In Annie Proulx’s essay, “Getting Movied” from the book, “Brokeback Mountain: story to screenplay” she says:

“The two characters had to have grown up on isolated hardscrabble ranches and were clearly homophobic themselves, especially the Ennis character … Although they were not really cowboys … the urban critics dubbed it a tale of two gay cowboys. No. It is a story of rural homophobia.”

I bring up this point because, although we see Jack as being more “out” than Ennis, he is not out completely. Look at the symbolism of Jack’s closet ... yes, the door is open, but the two shirts … his love for Ennis …. is still hidden.

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Then he says, in effect, that he knows Jack was gay ("I know where Brokeback Mountain is -- spit ") and resents Jack considering himself too special to be buried in the "family plot." We might assume there's a figurative link here -- Jack thought he could break society's rules and be gay, rather than do the classic straight-man family-values thing, but Mr. Twist wants to hold him to the family "plot," as in story line. Surely a jerk like this must also be homophobic. On the other hand, it's possible he just means that Jack got snooty after he got some money and "thought he was too 'special.'"

I am nitpicking again … but I am laying this out to as part of my argument … Mr. Twist spits after he says … “’Ennis del Mar,’ he used to say, ‘I’m goin’ a bring him up here one of these days ….’” The timing of this is important. He is showing his disdain towards Ennis. Then Mr. Twist continues to demean Ennis by talking about Jack bring up another “fella,” It should also be noted that the way Mr. Twist is talking is angry,  bitter.

IMO, the argument/ possibility that Jack got snooty after he had money doesn’t hold water. First of all, Mr. Twist was abusive towards Jack (physically, verbally, and emotionally). From what I have surmised, Jack certainly did not stand up to Mr. Twist. His dad was a jerk who could see nothing good in Jack. Secondly, Jack would have given up his money in a minute. It was not that important to him. Had Ennis decided to live with Jack, he would have given it all up.

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But wait -- is he a homophobic jerk? His jab at Ennis -- cruel as it is -- indicates that he accepts the relationships for what they are, reacts on their terms, understands that Ennis would feel bad about being dumped. In other words, his cruelty is no different from the cruelty he might exhibit to a heterosexual couple.

Also, Mr. Twist's main point of contention seems to be that Jack never got around to licking the damn ranch into shape (which Mr. Twist clearly would have welcomed -- the ranch appears rundown, AND we've heard Jack imply his folks could use a hand). Mr. Twist doesn't give a damn if Jack leaves his wife for Ennis del Mar or some ranch neighbor a his -- as long as he came to help. Mr. Twist's main complaint isn't that Jack wanted to ranch together with another man.

On the contrary, Mr. Twist's complaint is that Jack didn't!

And in any case, whatever resentment he holds doesn't provoke him to kick Jack out of the family (plot) but to insist that he stay in it.

You are right that Mr. Twist’s cruelty is no different than what might be exhibited towards a heterosexual couple. However, just because the cruelty could be transferred to a hetero does not indicate that Mr. Twist accepts the relationships for what they are.  What Mr. Twist is relaying is his contempt for Jack, Jack’s lover, and Jack’s lifestyle. IMO, Mr. Twist is giving Ennis, Jack, Jack’s ideas, etc. the finger. Since Jack could never please his father … do you really think Mr. Twist thought Jack would actually move up there and help run the ranch? Mr. Twist makes it clear that Jack’s ideas were foolish and that, “like most of Jack’s ideas it never come to pass.” What would have been Mr. Twist’s reaction if Jack actually did decide to move up there? We will never know. I find it hard to believe that the “stud duck” would have allowed that to happen.

As for the family plot … it is not that Mr. Twist cares if Jack goes in it. He just wants to make sure that Jack’s final wish is not honored. Again, it is a way of giving Jack the finger … even in death.

 
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I see how Ennis came away from the Twists with much new food for reflection on how other people might approach someone being "queer", much thanks to Jack who told his parents as much as he did about Ennis and gave them the opportunity to respond accordingly when they meet Ennis. In addition to the confirmation of Jack's love for him that Ennis carries back home, it will help him come to terms with who he is and realize - in his heart - that far from holding the commonly shared opinion on the matter, his father was far out to one side of the scale, in the minority. I wonder if that sort of reflection could happen when the pain and grief about Jack was still so raw.

I am not convinced Jack told his folks anything except that Ennis was his friend. Mrs. Twist certainly knew about the shirts … I think she found them. Mr. Twist heard Jack talking about Ennis and concluded that it was more than a friendship … it was likely a gay relationship. It takes very little to conclude if a person is gay or not. Think of Lureen … her fears/ suspicions were realized when Ennis told her about Jack and him herding sheep on BBM in ’63. You can see the further pained look on Lureen’s face when Ennis said, “we was good friends.” Shoot … I have figured out that a few guys were gay before they were even willing to admit it to themselves!

When Ennis comes down with the shirts, he holds them away from Mr. Twist. John represents societal homophobia …. an abusive SOB who probably figured his son was gay when he was a child (could have John been gay himself and took it out on his son?? Just a thought). Mrs. Twist represents compassion and love … despite what others may think of her son and his lover. IMO, Ennis became even more homophobic after he left the Twist’s. He saw the hatred in Mr. Twist. He assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Jack had been murdered because someone “found out.” Even though Ennis received compassion from Jack’s mother, it is the male “role model” who shows that his sexuality should be hated and despised.
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2006, 02:02:00 pm »
Mr. Twist spits after he says … “’Ennis del Mar,’ he used to say, ‘I’m goin’ a bring him up here one of these days ….’” The timing of this is important. He is showing his disdain towards Ennis.

That could be. It's been a while since I saw the movie, and I was just throwing in spits here and there for the fun of it. I realize that was irresponsible, because it's true that spits are significant and their timing is important. My bad.

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Then Mr. Twist continues to demean Ennis by talking about Jack bring up another “fella,” It should also be noted that the way Mr. Twist is talking is angry,  bitter.

Actually, if anything he strikes me as a tiny bit less angry and bitter in the moments when he's talking about Jack's plans than he is at other times in the conversation. I'm not saying he's some big crusader for gay rights. And he's undoubtedly a jerk. I just don't see his jerkiness as specifically homophobic.

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IMO, the argument/ possibility that Jack got snooty after he had money doesn’t hold water. First of all, Mr. Twist was abusive towards Jack (physically, verbally, and emotionally). From what I have surmised, Jack certainly did not stand up to Mr. Twist. His dad was a jerk who could see nothing good in Jack. Secondly, Jack would have given up his money in a minute. It was not that important to him. Had Ennis decided to live with Jack, he would have given it all up.

To clarify: I'm not saying MYSELF that Jack is snooty! I'd never say that. (Well, I might say he was a tiny bit tactless in his "If taxes don't take it, inflation eats it up ..." remark, given that he's talking to someone much poorer than himself.) I'm saying that's an alternate explanation for what Mr. Twist means when he calls Jack "too special." Jack obviously climbed a few rungs above his parents in socioeconomic status, and Mr. Twist possibly resents that.

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You are right that Mr. Twist’s cruelty is no different than what might be exhibited towards a heterosexual couple. However, just because the cruelty could be transferred to a hetero does not indicate that Mr. Twist accepts the relationships for what they are.  What Mr. Twist is relaying is his contempt for Jack, Jack’s lover, and Jack’s lifestyle.

Jack and Jack's lover, yes. But Jack's lifestyle ... again, I see no evidence of this. Just because he's contemptuous, doesn't mean it's Jack's sexuality that he holds contempt for. And the fact that his cruelty could be transferred to a hetero couple indicates not that he accepts the relationships -- only that his rejection is not necessarily based on their orientation.

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IMO, Mr. Twist is giving Ennis, Jack, Jack’s ideas, etc. the finger. Since Jack could never please his father … do you really think Mr. Twist thought Jack would actually move up there and help run the ranch?

No, not necessarily. But that's not essential to my point. My point is that when Mr. Twist talks about it, he very obviously focuses his criticism not on Jack leaving his wife to live with a man -- but on Jack's failure to follow through with yet another of his ideas. I think the nature of his criticism is what's significant, not whether Mr. Twist took it seriously in the first place.

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I am not convinced Jack told his folks anything except that Ennis was his friend. ... It takes very little to conclude if a person is gay or not.

In this issue it doesn't matter how Mr. Twist knew Jack was gay.  Only that he knew it.

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IMO, Ennis became even more homophobic after he left the Twist’s. He saw the hatred in Mr. Twist. He assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Jack had been murdered because someone “found out.” Even though Ennis received compassion from Jack’s mother, it is the male “role model” who shows that his sexuality should be hated and despised.

Hunh? This I don't get at all. Why would a 39-year-old man see a role model in an obnoxious old geezer whom he has ever reason to dislike and with whom he has spent no more than an hour or so? And even if so, given that Ennis was taught from childhood that his sexuality should be hated and despised, and given that he was perfectly capable of reinforcing that lesson to himself, thank you very much, and given that all of his other experiences that afternoon had if anything shown him that his sexuality was more nonchalantly accepted than he would imagine possible ... then why on earth would Mr. Twist's views make him feel any more homophobic? Or why would his being convinced Jack was murdered make him more homophobic? If anything, I would think both those experiences would push him in exactly the opposite direction.


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2006, 02:48:09 pm »
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I am not convinced Jack told his folks anything except that Ennis was his friend. Mrs. Twist certainly knew about the shirts … I think she found them. Mr. Twist heard Jack talking about Ennis and concluded that it was more than a friendship … it was likely a gay relationship.

I didn't mean to imply that I think Jack told his parents he was gay - or that Ennis was. Far from it. That's never even entered my mind. I simply think that as his parents listened to Jack talking about Ennis; - his friend who was to come up help him lick the ranch into shape; - quite animatedly and obviously more then once (Jack used to say...."), - they caught on to the truth. Jack probably never even realized that. He must just have been happy for this opportunity of telling someone about Ennis, saying ennis's name out loud, even when the listener was his horrible father.

However that may be, Jack needn't have said one word about Ennis to his parents, - Ennis would have expected him to have said little or nothing, I think. That Jack *had* actually told them enough to let them catch on to the real nature of his relationship with Ennis (and left the shirts there as further confirmation for Jack's mother to find and interpret) must have come as atotal  surprise to Ennis; - and, I postulate, will benefit Ennis in the long run once he had time to process the Twist couple's behaviour.

I realize that wasn't perhaps entirely clear in my post above - I had recently written a longer post on the same topic in another thread and must subconsciously have assumed that the content of that first post was be apparent from this shorter one without being specifically referenced. My bad.


Otherwise, I completely agree with Katherine's comments. Except I have a tiny niggle when it comes to this  ;):

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(Well, I might say he was a tiny bit tactless in his "If taxes don't take it, inflation eats it up ..." remark, given that he's talking to someone much poorer than himself.)

I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."

I wondered about that scene and what it meant till I had the opportunity to see the Shamus-edited script version and particularly the scene where Jack gives Ennis a fine gun, which Ennis hotly refuses to accept, stressing in his reply to Jack that the gun's too valuable, and that he's keenly aware of their differing financial status - and that it pains him. Yes, I know that scene was removed, and so shouldn't really be referred to as bearing on the understanding of the film, but IMO it's one of several instances where dialogue was altered and/or a scene was removed not because the writers and filmmakers thought it misrepresented their vision of the characters, but because it wasn't low-key and ambiguous enough. They did take great care to ensure ambiguity in scene after scene, through fine-tuning the dialogue etc.

Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived  strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is. :)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 03:00:03 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2006, 03:50:15 pm »
I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."

OK, I can buy that. There goes one of the three times (or is it just two?) in the whole movie when Jack's behavior was less than optimal!

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Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived  strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is. :)

Well, I agree the difference in their financial situation is certainly made obvious, but I don't know how much of a strain I think it created between them. Do you think Ennis is resentful of it? He never seems to be; even when he says Jack forgets what it's like to be broke all the time he seems mainly to be stating a simple fact: Jack doesn't have to worry about his financial status. It probably helps that Jack never makes an issue of it, either. Jack is willing to drive to Wyoming because he's got the better truck, makes no bones about the source of his wealth being his father-in-law, never brags about his possessions or gets hoity-toity.

However, maybe there's evidence of strain that I've overlooked?

Back to Mr. Twist. Quoting myself again, from my previous post:

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My point is that when Mr. Twist talks about it, he very obviously focuses his criticism not on Jack leaving his wife to live with a man -- but on Jack's failure to follow through with yet another of his ideas. I think the nature of his criticism is what's significant, not whether Mr. Twist took it seriously in the first place.

I should clarify that I don't know whether he genuinely resents that Jack didn't follow through. He might, since the ranch looks like it could use the help. Or he might be criticizing Jack just for the hell of it, out of habit and contempt. The point is, though, that of two the things he could find to critize Jack for in that situation -- leaving his wife for a man vs. not following up on his plan to do so -- he chose the more surprising one, the one that's not only not homophobic but actually implicitly endorses homosexual behavior.

Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2006, 04:04:30 pm »
Hunh? This I don't get at all. Why would a 39-year-old man see a role model in an obnoxious old geezer whom he has ever reason to dislike and with whom he has spent no more than an hour or so? And even if so, given that Ennis was taught from childhood that his sexuality should be hated and despised, and given that he was perfectly capable of reinforcing that lesson to himself, thank you very much, and given that all of his other experiences that afternoon had if anything shown him that his sexuality was more nonchalantly accepted than he would imagine possible ... then why on earth would Mr. Twist's views make him feel any more homophobic? Or why would his being convinced Jack was murdered make him more homophobic? If anything, I would think both those experiences would push him in exactly the opposite direction.

I reread my note and I have no idea what I was talking about. I think I started to get a bit sleepy at that moment. I think the point I was making (albeit worded badly ….. ) ummm … actually, I don’t know what I was trying to say. Maybe I was trying to psychologically analyze the situation … Ennis’ dad was homophobic. Ennis transfers what he knows onto Jack’s father … so the assumption is that he is homophobic, too. (Is that Ennis doing that or me? Who knows? I am rambling at this moment).

“To clarify: I'm not saying MYSELF that Jack is snooty! I'd never say that. (Well, I might say he was a tiny bit tactless in his "If taxes don't take it, inflation eats it up ..." remark, given that he's talking to someone much poorer than himself.) I'm saying that's an alternate explanation for what Mr. Twist means when he calls Jack "too special." Jack obviously climbed a few rungs above his parents in socioeconomic status, and Mr. Twist possibly resents that.”

I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."

Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived  strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is.

I agree with what you are getting at. Just as an added point … that whole “inflation scene” … Ennis says, “That sure sounds like high class entertainment” and Jack says, “For what it’s worth”. IMO, the money is not something that Jack cares a lot about. He has it, but would give it up if he could have lived the “sweet life” that he envisioned with Ennis. 

This whole issue sparked another thought … doesn’t all of the money issues (i.e. the differences between Jack and Ennis) actually start on BBM? Jack offers Ennis a loan and Ennis hotly rejects it. Could this be a reason that Jack downplays the money so often?
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2006, 04:17:30 pm »
Ennis’ dad was homophobic. Ennis transfers what he knows onto Jack’s father … so the assumption is that he is homophobic, too. (Is that Ennis doing that or me? Who knows?

Diane, you've hit upon my exact point! The movie very deliberately leads us AND Ennis to assume that Mr. Twist is a homophobe. He ran Jack off, rejected him, never taught him a thing, etc. And because we know Jack is gay, we make the assumption that that's why his father was abusive, and Ennis probably makes the same assumption -- hell, he probably assumes all fathers are homophobes.

But then ... he isn't! It's a surprise twist, so to speak.

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Jack offers Ennis a loan and Ennis hotly rejects it. Could this be a reason that Jack downplays the money so often?

I think this scene suffices to make the point that would have been made with the gun thing. Of course, it's also about Ennis being hurt that Jack's not upset about leaving the mountain early. But it does double duty, also showing that Ennis wouldn't want to accept money from Jack, and teaching Jack not to offer.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2006, 04:59:32 pm »
I'm on a posting roll today, it seems.  :o

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I don't know how much of a strain I think it created between them. Do you think Ennis is resentful of it? He never seems to be; even when he says Jack forgets what it's like to be broke all the time he seems mainly to be stating a simple fact: Jack doesn't have to worry about his financial status.


I don't think it puts an immense strain on the relationship, but I do think it's there. Ennis obviously feels embarrassed that he's got less money than Jack early on; "I ain't in the poorhouse". It does affect Ennis's and Alma's marriage - creating disagreements that Ennis would rather have been without and that ( partly at least) were directly caused by his relationship with Jack and so reflected on the relationship;  keeping to those low-paying jobs he could quit at any time. The "what's the point of making it" scene in itself confirms that money or the lack of same is an actual topic among Jack and Ennis. And while I agree that Ennis says the "You forget what it's like being broke all the time" line in a rather non-accusatory way, quite matter-of-factly, it *is* an assertion that Ennis sees as a fact - and he's obviously thought about it. I also see the emotional "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" as having a certain financial aspect to it. "Being a noone" is often associated with being poor, isn't it? IMO this all adds up to a sliver of resentment, certainly no very major thing, not something the filmmakers wanted to put undue emphasis on, but still there, adding its subtle bit to the increasing strain on Ennis's and Jack's relationship over the years. It's something so very human that I would almost have thought Ennis a complete saint if it *hadn't* been there.


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IMO, the money is not something that Jack cares a lot about. He has it, but would give it up if he could have lived the “sweet life” that he envisioned with Ennis.

Yes, that was one of my two main interpretations when I tried to figure out what exactly Jack meant in talking about "the point of making it". Originally, it was my favoured interpretation. And though I've eventually landed on another view of that specific scene,  I still completely agree that Jack would have given it all upif he only could have had his sweet life with Ennis. If he actually made concrete plans to move back to the dilapidated Twist ranch with Randall, - that's proof enough that he knew being well off didn't matter much without any kind of happiness and love in your life.

But..... Jack wasn't unaffected by the money. He liked having them. Early on he and Ennis agreed "money was a good point" and I'm pretty sure Lureen's money was one of several main reasons he married her - the only reason he gives Ennis, in fact. And I have to wonder; - if a rich marriage and money down in Texas meant so little to Jack, why didn't he leave and return to Wyoming to live closer to Ennis, in order to be able to cross Ennis's path more often, even if Ennis insisted he wouldn't give him the sweet life? Why was Jack so passive in changing their circumstances in order to try to change Ennis's mind? Could money be one of his several reasons there, too? I think Ennis was wrong in one thing: Jack *didn't* forget what it was like, being broke all the time - and I think he didn't particularly wish to re-live that memory, unless it came with a virtual guarantee of a sweet life with ....someone.


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...doesn’t all of the money issues (i.e. the differences between Jack and Ennis) actually start on BBM?

Yes, in the very first scene, even - when Ennis carefully preserves his last half cigarette, and then goes wild and smokes it all up in the bar with Jack.  ;)  Ennis has one beer there, Jack has several - from the very first Jack shows that he has more money than Ennis. And that financial gap widens and widens over the years.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 05:02:46 pm by Mikaela »

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2006, 05:36:28 pm »
I’d like to weigh in if I could…


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So I realized -- wait a minute, Mr. Twist is threatening and abusive and neglectful and rude and all that bad stuff. But the one thing he isn't, at least not in any obvious way, is homophobic!

I agree.

Watch the part of the scene as Ennis gives his “feel real bad” spiel.  Don’t watch Ennis.  Watch OMT.  Here’s a man who has recently lost his son to an accidental death (we have no reason to believe that OMT sees it any other way).  Along comes a man (Ennis) to talk about Jack.  Because of OMT’s comments later in the scene, we know that during Ennis’ spiel OMT knows that Ennis was a friend of Jack’s (we KNOW that much).  Watching OMT during the spiel, OMT is very stoic, very quiet, he listens to what Ennis says.  Then OMT speaks:

“I’ll tell you what.  I know where Brokeback Mountain is.  Thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot.  (prominent exhale)  Jack used to say… “Ennis del Mar,” he used to say.  “I’m gonna bring him up here one of these days… and we’ll lick this damn ranch into shape.”  He had some half-baked notion the two of you was gonna move up here… build a cabin… help run the place.  (spit)  Then, this spring…he got another fella gonna come up here with him… build the place, help run the ranch.  Some ranch neighbor of his from down in Texas.  Gonna split up with his wife and come back here… so he says.  But, like most of Jack’s ideas… never come to pass.”

Now watch it again.  But don’t watch.  Close your eyes.  Notice OMT’s delivery.  There is very little snippiness in his voice.  It’s very straightforward and mechanical – very much like Lureen in the previous scene.  Hauntingly so.  There is a raw emotion in his voice that, to me, expresses a very reserved sorrow.  Overall, because his son has recently died.  But, here, specifically, because the guy sitting across the table from him is THE guy of whom Jack used to speak.  And what did Jack say about Ennis to OMT?  That they were going to come up, build a cabin, help run the place.  THIS is OMT’s focus here.  Jack left OMT and the ranch when he was about 18-19.  He’s come back sporadically to help sporadically.  And all along, Jack would talk of bringing a guy up there to help run the ranch.  This is what OMT wanted and expected.  And when it didn’t work out to bring Ennis up, Jack started talking about bringing a different man up.  But this didn’t happen either – because of Jack’s death.  Had Ennis come up with Jack, OMT would have had help running the ranch.  AND Jack wouldn’t be dead because Jack wouldn’t have had to have fixed that flat tire in Texas. 

OMT is grieving about his son’s death – in his own way, which we may not agree with or understand, but he is still grieving (or dealing with it?).  But in this particular scene, the focus is on OMT’s two losses – help with the ranch and Jack’s death.  And he puts the blame for both on Ennis.  The first part of OMT’s spiel blames Ennis for the ranch help loss – then he spits and changes focus.  The new focus is now on Jack’s death and OMT’s blaming Ennis for it – nothing after the spit would have happened had Ennis come up with Jack.

This whole spiel came right after Ennis made his spiel.  And what did Ennis say?  He feels bad about Jack, knew him a long time, take his ashes up on Brokeback.  What’s the subtext?  "I’m someone special to Jack and I’m worthy of stepping in here and fulfilling Jack’s last wish."

But OMT’s response refutes what Ennis just said.  His entire spiel blames Ennis for not fulfilling a wish of Jack’s (one that would have helped OMT) and it blames Ennis for Jack’s death.  What OMT is really saying here is “You’re not so goddamn special.  You didn’t fulfill his earlier wish and he dropped you like a half-baked hot potato (  ;) ).  And now you expect to walk into my home and say that you’re the special one who should carry out his last wish?”  And then post-closet he adds (subtextually) “I’m his family and I’ll decide what’s best for my son.”  And after each spiel of OMT denigrating Ennis and his “specialness,” Mrs. Twist reassures Ennis that Ennis really is someone special.  She offers that Ennis can go up to Jack’s room – a very personal thing to offer – and she asks him to come back.  I have always seen a Christian symbolism here in that she offered him coffee and cherry cake (communion, wine and bread) and at the end she asks him to come back (communion, fellowship).

The main focus of the Twist home scene is the “specialness” of Ennis to Jack.  OMT focuses on why Ennis isn’t so special.  Jack tells Ennis he is special (the shirts).  Mrs. Twist confirms this to Ennis, in effect, disagreeing with her husband.  Who, interestingly enough, does not throw out an objection.  He has already had his final word on how “special” Ennis is… he didn’t release Jack’s ashes to Ennis.


Now, what does all of this have to do with OMT’s possible homophobia?


It’s all about what he knows or doesn’t know.  As latjoreme said:

Quote
… it doesn't matter how Mr. Twist knew Jack was gay.  Only that he knew it.


If OMT does NOT know about Jack, then a discussion of OMT’s homophobia is not relevant here.  Let’s say OMT is a racist.  It’s not an issue HERE because Ennis is not from another race.  If OMT is sexist, it’s not an issue HERE because Ennis is not a woman.  If OMT is homophobic, then it is not an issue HERE because OMT doesn’t know about Ennis – this is if we accept the premise that OMT does NOT know.

So what if we accept the premise that OMT DOES know?  Here’s where a discussion of potential homophobia becomes a relevant issue.  Now, to discuss his potential homophobia we must look at the interaction (as we just did).  The focus is on OMT’s losses and that he blames Ennis for them.  The focus is on showing Ennis that he is no one special because OMT blames Ennis for the losses.  Had Ennis agreed to come up with Jack, OMT would have accepted that.  This is pretty clear because OMT did NOT voice a displeasure with such a situation.  In fact, he blames Ennis’ not coming up there for his first loss – ranch help.  Also, as Ennis walks out with the shirts, OMT does NOT stop him.  He has made his point about how “unspecial” Ennis is.  He is going to keep the ashes.  So why not let the guy take the shirts.  Shirts -- a personal, intimate remembrance.  Not the little horsey.  Not the little rifle.  But the shirts.  In my opinion, OMT DOES know and he doesn’t care.  If he is homophobic, he hides it well (yet he didn’t hide his other displeasure at all).  The filmmakers also hide it well – because it isn’t there.  Once again, two things at play here.  First the viewer does not get what it may naturally expect as being obvious.  Second, as is shown throughout the film, “societal” homophobia is not the relevant factor in Ennis’ character – his own internalized homophobia is.


This is all why I agree completely with this observation from latjoreme (and latjoreme and I do not always agree):

Quote
When you come right down to it, the very fact that he might be despicable, yet not homophobic, means more than the fact that nice Mrs. Twist isn't homophobic. And because he's the father of a gay man, as was Ennis' evil dad, it's an unmistakable parallel. Much as he might resent Mr. Twist's rudeness, this must have been more stunning to Ennis than Mrs. Twist's kindness. Mr. Twist is an asshole -- yet very pointedly not a homophobic asshole.

… I now think we're meant to notice that he's just plain not homophobic. So, in Ennis' mind [what’s the significance]? It's the very opposite of what his own dad taught him to expect.


Mikaela is correct in noting:

Quote
…the Mr. Twist/Mr. Del Mar contrast that you point out Katherine, is especially difficult to notice due to the audiences' preconceived notions, which we share with Ennis.

And

Quote
… [Ennis] still believes or fears Mr. Twist *must* surely be a homophobe when he leaves … I see it in the way Ennis holds the shirts when he gets back down - shielding them somewhat from Mr. Twist, sending him a worried, pained look … he still expects homophobia to reveal itself in the most painful way possible.

And MOST importantly:

Quote
But it doesn't.

And another good observation:

Quote
Ennis fears everyone can look at him and *know*. The meeting with Mr. Twist shows him that even if that were so, for most of those people there are other hang-ups, other more important issues in the world - that they in fact, even when faced directly with the issue of homosexuality, may not consider that a big deal compared to other matters.

And another good observation from Atz75:

Quote
I also think that Ennis rolled the shirts up in a way so that only Jack's blue shirt is really visible while his own shirt is very much hidden.  This I think shows he's still very worried about a homophobic reaction.

And:

Quote
… about their queer-ness not being a big deal to many/ some people (as opposed to Ennis's somewhat overblown fear about intense homophobic reaction at every turn)... I think it's extremely important that in this case the people who don't seem to take it as such a big deal are Jack's parents.  Some of the most important people in their lives (had they lived together) seemingly would have accepted them (even if grudgingly on the part of Mr. Twist).  They aren't just random people who might be OK with Jack and Ennis being gay... These were potentially Ennis's "in-laws."

Excellent point!


Now, dly64 (someone I often agree with) and I are not on the same page here.


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What Mr. Twist is relaying is his contempt for Jack, Jack’s lover, and Jack’s lifestyle. IMO, Mr. Twist is giving Ennis, Jack, Jack’s ideas, etc. the finger. Since Jack could never please his father … do you really think Mr. Twist thought Jack would actually move up there and help run the ranch? Mr. Twist makes it clear that Jack’s ideas were foolish and that, “like most of Jack’s ideas it never come to pass.”

I don’t see contempt for Jack here as much as OMT defending Jack.  It’s as if he’s saying that Jack HAD an idea that OMT would have accepted.  But it didn’t come to pass.  And why not?  Because of Ennis – to OMT, that is.  OMT said Jack's ideas never came to pass.  Again, closing my eyes and listening to the tone of voice, and keeping in mind that he’s saying this to Ennis, blaming Ennis, makes me think that OMT is not making a judgment on Jack’s ideas as much as he’s expressing dismay that his recently deceased son never had any of his wishes come to pass – even though he went out into the world and made a go of it.  Sure enough, I can see a bit of judgment here, but given the spiel in context, I think it’s much more about how to pass the blame for Jack’s ideas never coming to pass.  Ennis knows damn well here that he IS to blame for Jack’s idea of living on the ranch together never coming to pass and Ennis is most likely haunted by the notion that he is indirectly to blame for Jack’s death – because if Jack only hadn’t been there at that time… and he wouldn’t have been, but for Ennis.  This scene reinforces Ennis’ guilt by OMT reinforcing the blame that Ennis has already put on his own shoulders, and this scene compounds the guilt by showing Ennis that a should-be parallel to his own father is not sitting across from him at the table with a tire iron in his lap.

Quote
When Ennis comes down with the shirts, he holds them away from Mr. Twist. John represents societal homophobia …. an abusive SOB who probably figured his son was gay when he was a child (could have John been gay himself and took it out on his son?? Just a thought). Mrs. Twist represents compassion and love … despite what others may think of her son and his lover. IMO, Ennis became even more homophobic after he left the Twist’s. He saw the hatred in Mr. Twist. He assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Jack had been murdered because someone “found out.” Even though Ennis received compassion from Jack’s mother, it is the male “role model” who shows that his sexuality should be hated and despised.

I don’t see it this way.

First, let me be very clear – OMT is an asshole and I am not defending him.  I’m just expressing what I believe is more observable in the scene.

That said, if we are going to look at what each of the three characters represents at the moment Ennis brings the shirts down, I’d have to go more with something like this:

Ennis – homophobia – he tries to hide evidence of their relationship from what he fears to be the homophobia in the room.

OMT – begrudged tolerance of homosexuality -- he doesn’t smile, but he doesn’t stop Ennis, either.

Mrs. Twist – actual acceptance of homosexuality – she smiles and aids Ennis.


As to the discussion of “too goddamn special,” it probably has its roots in things like Jack’s leaving the ranch at 18-19 to find his own way in life, or his increased economic status, etc.  But I think it’s more important to see it as a lead-in to OMT’s observations of Ennis not being anyone special  -- “Don’t come in here acting so goddamn special that you’re going to do the “family thing” and take his ashes to Brokeback.  Jack wasn’t that goddamn special and neither are you.”


As to the discussion on the effect this scene has on Ennis, I agree with mikaela:

Quote
… That Jack *had* actually told them enough to let them catch on to the real nature of his relationship with Ennis (and left the shirts there as further confirmation for Jack's mother to find and interpret) must have come as atotal  surprise to Ennis; - and, I postulate, will benefit Ennis in the long run once he had time to process the Twist couple's behaviour.



Finally, mikaela said:

Quote
And I have to wonder; - if a rich marriage and money down in Texas meant so little to Jack, why didn't he leave and return to Wyoming to live closer to Ennis, in order to be able to cross Ennis's path more often, even if Ennis insisted he wouldn't give him the sweet life? Why was Jack so passive in changing their circumstances in order to try to change Ennis's mind? Could money be one of his several reasons there, too? I think Ennis was wrong in one thing: Jack *didn't* forget what it was like, being broke all the time - and I think he didn't particularly wish to re-live that memory, unless it came with a virtual guarantee of a sweet life with ....someone.

I can agree with all of this, but also remember Bobby.





« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 05:52:31 pm by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2006, 07:58:09 pm »
Whoa there people!  Wow, I guess I'm not the only one around here who talks a blue streak.  I think I need to pour some Old Rose whiskey before I tackle this discussion again.
 ;) :laugh:
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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2006, 08:03:41 pm »
Whoa there people!  Wow, I guess I'm not the only one around here who talks a blue streak.  I think I need to pour some Old Rose whiskey before I tackle this discussion again.
 ;) :laugh:

I've never been accused of being "Ruthlessly Taciturn."





Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2006, 09:06:09 pm »
Hey there Friends,

I'm here to advertise the new Jack's questionnaire thread.  I got quite carried away...  But, since I know none of you are afraid of a little typing... I'm sure you're all up to the challenge.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3196.msg56554#msg56554
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Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2006, 09:27:42 pm »
Now watch it again.  But don’t watch.  Close your eyes.  Notice OMT’s delivery.  There is very little snippiness in his voice.  It’s very straightforward and mechanical – very much like Lureen in the previous scene.  Hauntingly so.  There is a raw emotion in his voice that, to me, expresses a very reserved sorrow.  Overall, because his son has recently died.  But, here, specifically, because the guy sitting across the table from him is THE guy of whom Jack used to speak.  And what did Jack say about Ennis to OMT?  That they were going to come up, build a cabin, help run the place.  THIS is OMT’s focus here.  Jack left OMT and the ranch when he was about 18-19.  He’s come back sporadically to help sporadically.  And all along, Jack would talk of bringing a guy up there to help run the ranch.  This is what OMT wanted and expected.  And when it didn’t work out to bring Ennis up, Jack started talking about bringing a different man up.  But this didn’t happen either – because of Jack’s death.  Had Ennis come up with Jack, OMT would have had help running the ranch.  AND Jack wouldn’t be dead because Jack wouldn’t have had to have fixed that flat tire in Texas. 

OMT is grieving about his son’s death – in his own way, which we may not agree with or understand, but he is still grieving (or dealing with it?).  But in this particular scene, the focus is on OMT’s two losses – help with the ranch and Jack’s death.  And he puts the blame for both on Ennis.  The first part of OMT’s spiel blames Ennis for the ranch help loss – then he spits and changes focus.  The new focus is now on Jack’s death and OMT’s blaming Ennis for it – nothing after the spit would have happened had Ennis come up with Jack.

I can concede that Mr. Twist isn’t completely homophobic. I think we can all agree he was a SOB. As for grieving Jack’s death? Maybe I am clueless here, but I just don’t see it. The only thing he may be grieving is someone who could help him run the ranch. Mr. Twist is a lot of things … but caring about someone other than himself? No way. I also don’t see Mr. Twist blaming Ennis for what has happened. I don’t think he gave a hoot. I don’t think OMT cares how Jack died or that he’s even dead (that’s a very strong statement. Maybe I am transferring my own beliefs into this. But, that’s how I view Mr. Twist). It’s not like OMT ever went out of his way to be present for his son. He never taught him anything. He never watched him ride. He never met Lureen. He never met his son. Does that sound like someone who cared one iota about his own flesh and blood? This doesn’t mean that Jack didn’t try pleasing his father. Studies have shown that, despite having an abusive parent, a child will do anything to try to gain his/her parents’ love. IMO, no matter what Jack would have done, it would have never been good enough. Mr. Twist was so egocentric, I don’t think he cared whether or not Ennis may or may not have had the ability to save his son.

Quote
This whole spiel came right after Ennis made his spiel.  And what did Ennis say?  He feels bad about Jack, knew him a long time, take his ashes up on Brokeback.  What’s the subtext?  "I’m someone special to Jack and I’m worthy of stepping in here and fulfilling Jack’s last wish."

But OMT’s response refutes what Ennis just said.  His entire spiel blames Ennis for not fulfilling a wish of Jack’s (one that would have helped OMT) and it blames Ennis for Jack’s death.  What OMT is really saying here is “You’re not so goddamn special.  You didn’t fulfill his earlier wish and he dropped you like a half-baked hot potato (  ;) ).  And now you expect to walk into my home and say that you’re the special one who should carry out his last wish?”  And then post-closet he adds (subtextually) “I’m his family and I’ll decide what’s best for my son.”  And after each spiel of OMT denigrating Ennis and his “specialness,” Mrs. Twist reassures Ennis that Ennis really is someone special.  She offers that Ennis can go up to Jack’s room – a very personal thing to offer – and she asks him to come back.  I have always seen a Christian symbolism here in that she offered him coffee and cherry cake (communion, wine and bread) and at the end she asks him to come back (communion, fellowship).

I think your theory about the communion is an interesting one … considering Jack talked about his mother believing in the Pentecost and the prominent display of the cross in the Twists’ home. Beyond that, I just don’t see eye to eye at all. Mr. Twist doesn’t give up Jack’s ashes because he thinks he knows what’s best for his son. He doesn’t give them up because that’s what Jack wanted. OMT is asserting his control over Jack … even in death. Mr. Twist is a vain jerk. Nothing he does or says has anything to do with his love for Jack. On the contrary … he’s sticking it to Jack. He’s sticking it to Ennis.

Quote
The main focus of the Twist home scene is the “specialness” of Ennis to Jack.  OMT focuses on why Ennis isn’t so special.  Jack tells Ennis he is special (the shirts).  Mrs. Twist confirms this to Ennis, in effect, disagreeing with her husband.  Who, interestingly enough, does not throw out an objection.  He has already had his final word on how “special” Ennis is… he didn’t release Jack’s ashes to Ennis.

As stated above … I just can’t agree with this completely. I do think Mrs. Twist, after hearing her husband crush Ennis, allows Ennis to go up to Jack’s room in hopes that he will find the shirts. This does relay to Ennis that he was the love of Jack’s life. It isn’t until Ennis comes down with the shirts and they are put in the bag that OMT says, “Tell you what. We got a family plot. He’s goin’ in it.” i.e. Mr. Twist has the last word.


Quote
I don’t see contempt for Jack here as much as OMT defending Jack.  It’s as if he’s saying that Jack HAD an idea that OMT would have accepted.  But it didn’t come to pass.  And why not?  Because of Ennis – to OMT, that is.  OMT said Jack's ideas never came to pass.  Again, closing my eyes and listening to the tone of voice, and keeping in mind that he’s saying this to Ennis, blaming Ennis, makes me think that OMT is not making a judgment on Jack’s ideas as much as he’s expressing dismay that his recently deceased son never had any of his wishes come to pass – even though he went out into the world and made a go of it.  Sure enough, I can see a bit of judgment here, but given the spiel in context, I think it’s much more about how to pass the blame for Jack’s ideas never coming to pass.  Ennis knows damn well here that he IS to blame for Jack’s idea of living on the ranch together never coming to pass and Ennis is most likely haunted by the notion that he is indirectly to blame for Jack’s death – because if Jack only hadn’t been there at that time… and he wouldn’t have been, but for Ennis.  This scene reinforces Ennis’ guilt by OMT reinforcing the blame that Ennis has already put on his own shoulders, and this scene compounds the guilt by showing Ennis that a should-be parallel to his own father is not sitting across from him at the table with a tire iron in his lap.

Again, I can acknowledge that Mr. Twist was not homophobic … at least to the degree that I saw him previously. As for Mr. Twist giving a damn about how his son died and then blaming Ennis for it? I just can’t agree. Mr. Twist was needling Jack in death as he did in life. He didn’t care what his son wanted.  He only cared that he hurt the one person Jack loved  … Ennis. His motivation for this was not out of love or despair over Jack’s death. It was Mr. Twist’s controlling, abusive nature that influenced every decision he made. It was no coincidence that OMT, in essence, had the “last word”
Diane

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Offline Katie77

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2006, 09:55:54 pm »
I agree with you too, that Mr Twist, was probaby not homophobic....or was it just that he was too nieve to realize when jack said he was bringing Ennis or Randall to the ranch to help out, that he didnt realize that there was anything untoward about that.

Either way, it does show something, and I wonder if Ennis realized it....that if he had come out with Jack to the ranch, there was not going to be any repurcussions or objections to it, at least not from MR and Mrs Twist.

Maybe old man Twist, knew, but would never have said it out loud..

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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2006, 02:38:14 am »
He never met Lureen. He never met his son.

(You mean grandson, right?) Do we know that (could be, though I don't remember hearing that)? And if so, is it necessarily all OMT's fault? The Twists are old and, like Ennis, may lack a reliable car. Jack could also have brought the family up to Lightning Flat, couldn't he?

But actually, I don't really want to defend Mr. Twist. For one thing, I've already got my hands full, constantly defending Ennis  :laugh: And for another, I think that the more of an SOB he is, the better the movie works. He can be the world's biggest SOB, in fact, as long as he's not also a homophobe. I'm not insisting on his lack of homophobia because I don't want you to hate him as much. I think you should hate him all you like but also notice his lack of homophobia.

I think what the filmmakers are trying to show with the Lightning Flat scenes is Ennis finding out how much he blew it. In two ways: 1) he underestimated or mishandled his relationship with Jack, which he realizes when he hears about Jack's idea that never came to pass -- Jack took it seriously enough to mention it to his parents -- and then especially when he finds the shirts. And 2) he learns that getting outed is not as disastrous as he'd always assumed it would be. He learns that from Mrs. Twist, because she is compassionate. But he learns it even better from Mr. Twist, ironically because he is not the least bit compassionate. Quite the opposite, yet the homosexuality part of the equation is not a big problem. Maybe the sweet life was more feasible than Ennis believed.

That message wouldn't be conveyed by different scenarios. If Mr. Twist were homophobic and mean, it would only confirm our expectations. The film sets us up to assume that because he ran Jack off, etc. And Ennis may have assumed the same, because all mean dads are homophobes, right? So Ennis wouldn't learn anything upon meeting him, nor would we.

If Mr. Twist were unhomophobic and nice, like Mrs. Twist, it would be reassuring for Ennis. Not everybody hates him. But he still wouldn't learn much -- nice people might actually be homophobic but politely hide it or, if they're really really nice, maybe they aren't homophobic, but only because they're so nice.

But if Mr. Twist is an obnoxious jerk and yet STILL isn't homophobic, that really says something. OMT has no reason to hide his homophobia from Ennis. He's spiteful, so if homophobia were an issue, you can bet he'd drag that one out, too. But he doesn't. So Ennis learns that, contrary to what he has believed since childhood, not all fathers or men or role models or people hate homosexuals as much as he assumes they do. Wow! That's a much more interesting and dramatic scene, especially because it counters our own expectations -- wait a minute, aren't all 60s-era cantankerous rural geezers also homophobes? Once again, we're required to look beyond our preconceptions.

So the more you hate Mr. Twist, the more effective the scene is.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think the film is trying to say that actually the world is a friendly happy place where homophobia only exists in people's imaginations -- the Earl story counters that. It's only this particular person who does not appear to be homophobic. However, that's in keeping with the rest of the movie. Nobody who "knows" about Jack and Ennis reacts very strongly: Aguirre doesn't fire them, Alma stays quiet for years. The damage of societal homophobia is inflicted mostly on Ennis' mind and, well, soul. But that is not to say the damage is imaginary or negligible -- on the contrary, it is real and devastating and life-wrecking.

I agree with much of what Ruthlessly said about this issue. Incuding:

Quote
OMT is very stoic, very quiet, he listens to what Ennis says. ...There is a raw emotion in his voice that, to me, expresses a very reserved sorrow.  Overall, because his son has recently died.

This is what I see, too. I disagree with your contention, Diane, that he didn't care about his son. So hey, maybe he's not such a bad guy after all.

Or, no, wait ... he has to be!

Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2006, 09:41:59 am »
(You mean grandson, right?) Do we know that (could be, though I don't remember hearing that)? And if so, is it necessarily all OMT's fault? The Twists are old and, like Ennis, may lack a reliable car. Jack could also have brought the family up to Lightning Flat, couldn't he?

Whoops! I meant grandson … it was one of those things where I knew what I meant, but didn’t translate it correctly. C’est la vie!!

Okay … you are correct that it was not expressed in the film regarding never meeting Jack’s family. (That’s one of those things that I transferred from the story to the film). And, yes, Jack could have driven Lureen and Bobby up. It’s maybe one of those circumstances whereby Jack really didn’t want to deal with his bastard of a father. (Can you tell that I really find OMT despicable?)

Quote
I think what the filmmakers are trying to show with the Lightning Flat scenes is Ennis finding out how much he blew it. In two ways: 1) he underestimated or mishandled his relationship with Jack, which he realizes when he hears about Jack's idea that never came to pass -- Jack took it seriously enough to mention it to his parents -- and then especially when he finds the shirts. And 2) he learns that getting outed is not as disastrous as he'd always assumed it would be. He learns that from Mrs. Twist, because she is compassionate. But he learns it even better from Mr. Twist, ironically because he is not the least bit compassionate. Quite the opposite, yet the homosexuality part of the equation is not a big problem. Maybe the sweet life was more feasible than Ennis believed.

I certainly agree with your first point. As for your second point … are you saying that Mr. Twist is nonchalant about his son being gay? That he is impassive? I am not sure about that … I keep vacillating. I guess, for today, I can see your logic.

Quote
So the more you hate Mr. Twist, the more effective the scene is.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think the film is trying to say that actually the world is a friendly happy place where homophobia only exists in people's imaginations -- the Earl story counters that. It's only this particular person who does not appear to be homophobic. However, that's in keeping with the rest of the movie. Nobody who "knows" about Jack and Ennis reacts very strongly: Aguirre doesn't fire them, Alma stays quiet for years. The damage of societal homophobia is inflicted mostly on Ennis' mind and, well, soul. But that is not to say the damage is imaginary or negligible -- on the contrary, it is real and devastating and life-wrecking.

If you are saying that Ennis realizes that he would not have (necessarily) been killed for loving a man … I can agree with that. I understand that you are also focusing on one person and not society as a whole. As for others “not reacting strongly” …. to me it is not what they do. It is what they say and what they convey in their tone of voice. It’s disdain. Look at racial hatred.  Not everyone would kill a person of another race (although it happens). However, that doesn’t prevent them from despising the individual and causing irreparable harm to his/her psyche. Although I can agree that much of the damage perpetrated on to Ennis is from Ennis himself,   it does not preclude the fact that, especially in that time and place, he would have been hated, despised, and a target. (What I mean as a “target” – certainly discrimination and possibly the target of a hate crime).

It is at this moment I am going to share with (all of) you one thing that colors my perception. I have shared this before in another thread, but I don’t know that any of you are aware of this:
I had a great uncle who was gay. He lived in a rural Midwestern town. He did what society expected of him. He got married and had children (albeit 12 years apart).  He was caught having sex with a man and was arrested. Of course all of this was extremely painful for everyone. Oh yes … one more thing …. he was murdered. Apparently everyone knew who did it, but no one was arrested. Why? Because it eliminated this parasite from their midst.

I am telling you this not to evoke sympathy, but to express the toll on everyone that rural homophobia causes. I don’t think any of us disagree with this statement. Where I think we differ … even if someone is not outwardly homophobic, it does not eliminate the seething contempt perpetrated on the gay individual. This is how I see OMT. Granted, he probably would not have killed Ennis or his son. That is not to say, however, that he wouldn’t work hard to demean them and to destroy them emotionally. OMT is all about CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. (YIKES! I am coming on really strong here, but that is what I think).

Quote
I disagree with your contention, Diane, that he didn't care about his son. So hey, maybe he's not such a bad guy after all.

Or, no, wait ... he has to be!

I see what you are saying … but it comes down to this …  IMO, Mr. Twist is not keeping the ashes because he longs to have Jack in the family plot. On the contrary. He is doing it because he knows this is not what Jack wanted. Back to the whole issue of control. I may have been too strong in saying that OMT didn’t care about his son (at all). But his motivations are not out of love for Jack. He is not being a bastard to Ennis because he blames Ennis for allowing Jack to die. He is being an old SOB because that is what he is.
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2006, 11:29:24 am »
It’s maybe one of those circumstances whereby Jack really didn’t want to deal with his bastard of a father.

So his father is a bastard because he never met his grandson, which he couldn't do because his son never introduced them, which he didn't do because his father is a bastard?  ;) No, I know what you mean. And as I said, I definitely am not vying for a a position on the OMT Defense League. (The EDM Defense League is already a full-time job.)

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As for your second point … are you saying that Mr. Twist is nonchalant about his son being gay? That he is impassive? I am not sure about that … I keep vacillating. I guess, for today, I can see your logic.

It would seem so. Of if he harbors homophobia in his heart of hearts, we're not shown it. The important thing is the filmmakers very pointedly did not present him as a homophobe, and their objective was not to elicit sympathy for the old man but to make a dramatic point.

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As for others “not reacting strongly” …. to me it is not what they do. It is what they say and what they convey in their tone of voice. It’s disdain.

Sure. But the point is that the worst reaction -- in this particular story, excluding Earl -- happens in Ennis' mind. Besides, Ennis is used to facing disdainful tones in other circumstances. Look how disdainful Aguirre was, even before he knew of their sexual activities. In Ennis' mind, the repercussions of people "knowing" would be much more huge and unbearable than garden-variety disdain. On Thanksgiving, if Alma had accused him -- in the same disdainful tone -- of being a bad provider, he would have been pissed off. But I don't think he would have threatened violence, stormed out of the house and got himself beaten up. If Aguirre, instead of saying "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good," had said something about their sexual activities, Ennis would not have just stood there impassively, he would have freaked out. He could live with being called incompetent. But he was raised to believe that homosexuality was not in any way remotely acceptable, that it was the worst possible thing, that the consequences of being associated with the word were unspeakable.

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However, that doesn’t prevent them from despising the individual and causing irreparable harm to his/her psyche.

Exactly!!!!! That's exactly the point the film is making about societal homophobia -- that it causes irreparable harm to an individual's psyche.

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Although I can agree that much of the damage perpetrated on to Ennis is from Ennis himself,

But really I'm not saying that. I'm saying that actually the damage to Ennis was perpetrated by society, or maybe that the damage perpetrated by society causes Ennis to perpetrate damage on himself. In other words, I'm not letting society off the hook, and I don't think Ennis' problems came out of nowhere.

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it does not preclude the fact that, especially in that time and place, he would have been hated, despised, and a target. (What I mean as a “target” – certainly discrimination and possibly the target of a hate crime).

Sure. The Earl story certainly proves that. I'm just saying it's interesting that the filmmakers chose not to focus on the external expression of homophobia (discrimination, hate crimes). In fact, Earl aside, those are conspicuously absent. Aguirre watches Jack and Ennis through the binoculars. Then we see him riding up to Jack and think "Uh-oh, now the shit's going to hit the fan!" (Ha ha ha: shit, fan -- get it?!) But in fact, it doesn't. Aguirre doesn't mention what he saw. He doesn't fire them or yell at them. In fact, he's not even all that rude, at least by his standards. Why not? (Though he does decline to rehire Jack the following year, so discrimination isn't entirely absent.)

BTW, understand that I'm not saying, oh, they never show any hate crimes except for that trivial little subplot involving Earl. The horrifying shadow of Earl's fate looms over the whole story. I'm just saying that, having said it once, the film figures we get the message and doesn't need to say it again and again.

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I had a great uncle who was gay. He lived in a rural Midwestern town. He did what society expected of him. He got married and had children (albeit 12 years apart).  He was caught having sex with a man and was arrested. Of course all of this was extremely painful for everyone. Oh yes … one more thing …. he was murdered. Apparently everyone knew who did it, but no one was arrested.

Diane, I saw this on the other thread. I know you aren't saying it to get sympathy, but I AM really sorry, it's a horrifying story. And please please don't interpret my remarks here to indicate that I think stuff like that never happens. That's not what I mean at all.

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Where I think we differ … even if someone is not outwardly homophobic, it does not eliminate the seething contempt perpetrated on the gay individual.

I don't think we differ on this.

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This is how I see OMT. Granted, he probably would not have killed Ennis or his son. That is not to say, however, that he wouldn’t work hard to demean them and to destroy them emotionally. OMT is all about CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL.

We certainly agree that OMT is an SOB. Yet the film goes out of its way to suggest that OMT knows about Jack, shows him acting contemptuously, even hatefully, yet strangely enough does not show him saying anything homophobic.

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IMO, Mr. Twist is not keeping the ashes because he longs to have Jack in the family plot. On the contrary. He is doing it because he knows this is not what Jack wanted. Back to the whole issue of control. I may have been too strong in saying that OMT didn’t care about his son (at all). But his motivations are not out of love for Jack. He is not being a bastard to Ennis because he blames Ennis for allowing Jack to die. He is being an old SOB because that is what he is.

I'm not sure what I think about why he keeps the ashes, or whether he blames Ennis. Ruthlessly's interpretation is interesting and in some ways appealing, but, hmm ... I'm still unsure about OMT's motivations. I don't think he doesn't care about his son at all. But in any case, IMO, that's not the main point.

The main point is that, in the case of OMT, asshole does not equal homophobe. Maybe it usually does. Maybe all other embittered and vindictive old bastards in rural 1980s Wyoming are homophobes. But this one isn't, or at least we see no evidence that he is. The filmmakers want us to set aside our preconceptions -- in effect, to disregard our own prejudices.

They're doing it to make a point, but the point isn't that OMT is actually a nicer guy than he seems, nor that homophobia isn't a problem in rural Wyoming, nor that gay people are never targets of prejudice or hate crimes. On the contrary, we've seen evidence of all those things. The point is that society's homophobia not only causes all that sort of objective damage, but it also wreaks subjective damage, that it injures people's hearts and psyches and souls -- and, in the case of Ennis, wrecks his life.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2006, 06:29:58 pm »
I must say that this recent discussion and the posts from all of you here has been very illuminating. Not only has the point about Twist Sr. and his lack of (apparent) homophobia, contrary to all expectations, been aired and examined from many angles. But also I have come to realize that though I thought this was completely clear to me,  I am now entirely uncertain exactly why Twist Sr. behaves the way he does and why he is such a nasty Son of a Bitch. In reading the various posts I agree with bits and pieces, but I don't see anything that makes me exclaim: YES, that's it!

I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself - something in his behaviour towards his son can be interpreted that way. In seeing the film portrayal, I was reminded of what Annie Proulx writes in her essay "getting movied" about the elderly ranch hand she saw in 1997 watching younger men playing pool - the man that inspired the thoughts that culminated in the BBM short story. The man she wondered whether could be "country gay". She describes  "something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing" - and I am thinking that perhaps what Twist Sr. is displaying in the film is what happens when even that longing is gone and only the bitterness (and envy) remains...... It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.


Another thing I was going to ask everyone is what you think Ennis gets from the conversation with Lureen, apart from the painful confirmation of Jack's death.

He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered? Wouldn't he then fear that she might have guessed that the fishing/hunting buddy got up to more than just fishing with Jack? Might he realize during the conversation or when thinking back on it later on in life that she managed to connect the dots when he told her he was the one who was together with Jack on Brokeback, his "favourite place"? What would he then make of the fact that nevertheless, she told him of Jack's last wish and suggested that he be the one to fulfill that wish. Would he see some sort of forgiveness, acceptance, understanding and even compassion in all of this? I know I do - I really want to cheer Lureen on as she puts down that receiver. She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 06:34:47 pm by Mikaela »

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2006, 07:05:54 pm »
In reading the various posts I agree with bits and pieces, but I don't see anything that makes me exclaim: YES, that's it!

As it should be!  We each have our take and we help to illuminate.  There are no definite answers.  (But we’re certainly entitled to hold our own answers near and dear.)  Besides, for my part, even if I state “Here’s what’s going on this scene…” (for example, the Twist family scene is about OMT blaming Ennis), I still leave a lot of room for a lot of other things to be going on at the same time.  I very seldom intend for my (very strongly stated and direct) opinions to reflect a finality.


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I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself … It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.

No, it’s not a far stretch.  It reflects very good observation and examination of the film.  If it works for you in your understanding, I say, “You go girl!”  -- I share your view, by the way.


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She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?

Very good questions and deserving of a lot of inquiry and discussion.  All I can say at this time, though, is I disagree with the part of your paragraph that I quoted above.  I see it as entirely reasonable to think that Lureen figured out that Ennis was Jack’s lover.  However, because of her last comment, about the ashes, I mean, I tend to believe that what Lureen figured out during this phone call was that Jack’s favorite place was not with her and that Jack had someone else in his life who was more important to Jack than she was.  This doesn’t have to have anything to do with her figuring out it was a gay relationship.  And I think she wouldn’t have been so “kind” in her last comment, about the ashes, I mean, had she really figured out that piece of the puzzle.  Alma let it sit and stew inside her for many years.  I don’t see Lureen as doing that.  I think she would have come right out with it.  Then, she would have actually said “humping buddy” as some people have thought she said.

I see Lureen in this scene as a very believable and reasonable recently-made widow, keeping it all in the character of Lureen that had been developed thus far.  But looking at just Lureen, this scene deals her a very painful blow in her realization that **she** and **their home** were not Jack’s favorites.





Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2006, 08:06:25 pm »
I'm just saying it's interesting that the filmmakers chose not to focus on the external expression of homophobia (discrimination, hate crimes). In fact, Earl aside, those are conspicuously absent. Aguirre watches Jack and Ennis through the binoculars. Then we see him riding up to Jack and think "Uh-oh, now the shit's going to hit the fan!" (Ha ha ha: shit, fan -- get it?!) But in fact, it doesn't. Aguirre doesn't mention what he saw. He doesn't fire them or yell at them. In fact, he's not even all that rude, at least by his standards. Why not? (Though he does decline to rehire Jack the following year, so discrimination isn't entirely absent.)

I see your point here. (I like your “shot hitting the fan” pun. Good one!!)

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I'm not sure what I think about why he keeps the ashes, or whether he blames Ennis. Ruthlessly's interpretation is interesting and in some ways appealing, but, hmm ... I'm still unsure about OMT's motivations. I don't think he doesn't care about his son at all. But in any case, IMO, that's not the main point.

The main point is that, in the case of OMT, asshole does not equal homophobe. Maybe it usually does. Maybe all other embittered and vindictive old bastards in rural 1980s Wyoming are homophobes. But this one isn't, or at least we see no evidence that he is. The filmmakers want us to set aside our preconceptions -- in effect, to disregard our own prejudices.

You are correct on this. I am completely aware that my disdain  towards OMT distorts my view. I really can’t stand the man, so it is hard for me to acknowledge anything that is even remotely positive. Putting that aside, however, I can see your point.

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They're doing it to make a point, but the point isn't that OMT is actually a nicer guy than he seems, nor that homophobia isn't a problem in rural Wyoming, nor that gay people are never targets of prejudice or hate crimes. On the contrary, we've seen evidence of all those things. The point is that society's homophobia not only causes all that sort of objective damage, but it also wreaks subjective damage, that it injures people's hearts and psyches and souls -- and, in the case of Ennis, wrecks his life.

Now this, my friend, I agree with 100%.



[/quote]
I'm now even agreeing there's reason to consider whether the movie version of Twist Sr. might have been a closeted "queer" himself - something in his behaviour towards his son can be interpreted that way. In seeing the film portrayal, I was reminded of what Annie Proulx writes in her essay "getting movied" about the elderly ranch hand she saw in 1997 watching younger men playing pool - the man that inspired the thoughts that culminated in the BBM short story. The man she wondered whether could be "country gay". She describes  "something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing" - and I am thinking that perhaps what Twist Sr. is displaying in the film is what happens when even that longing is gone and only the bitterness (and envy) remains...... It's probably a very far stretch, too far. Still, his expression and the description in the essay suddenly struck me as fitting together.

What cracks me up is that I threw this idea out previously … I think somewhere in this thread. Although I was being somewhat sarcastic (which is a common reaction for me), there actually may be some merit to the idea. Obviously we will never know for sure. I just find it interesting that some of OMT’s bitter reaction towards Ennis and Jack could  be that he had wished for a love like that himself. Think about two things that mirror Jack:
1.   He has only one child … a son
2.   He is not particularly loving to his wife (in fact, rather cold … which Jack has become that way. At the benefit, Jack pretty much sticks it to Lureen when he asks LaShawn to dance. Jack also makes it clear, by the time of lake scene, that there isn’t anything there between the two of them).
Now, I could also list a plethora of things that distinguish OMT and Jack. I just think it is an interesting concept to pursue!

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Another thing I was going to ask everyone is what you think Ennis gets from the conversation with Lureen, apart from the painful confirmation of Jack's death.

He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered? Wouldn't he then fear that she might have guessed that the fishing/hunting buddy got up to more than just fishing with Jack? Might he realize during the conversation or when thinking back on it later on in life that she managed to connect the dots when he told her he was the one who was together with Jack on Brokeback, his "favourite place"? What would he then make of the fact that nevertheless, she told him of Jack's last wish and suggested that he be the one to fulfill that wish. Would he see some sort of forgiveness, acceptance, understanding and even compassion in all of this? I know I do - I really want to cheer Lureen on as she puts down that receiver. She's just been subjected to the most dreadful blow, finally learning who Jack truly loved,- and yet she doesn't snub Ennis - she appoints him the task of fulfilling Jack's last wish.

In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?

There are a lot of great ideas in all you are saying. So as not to give a complete dissertation (which I have been known to do), I will try to focus on a few points rather than all of them.

From Ennis’ POV, I don’t know that he sees Lureen as deliberately lying (even though we could start a whole new thread debating if Lureen was, in reality, telling the truth). It is interesting to surmise what Ennis is thinking on the telephone (in regards to what Lureen knew or didn’t know) because he cannot see her facial expressions like we can. IMO, it becomes obvious to us, the audience, that she puts two and two together and realizes that Ennis is the love of Jack’s life. But does Ennis realize this? The only time he might get an inkling is when she says … “I suppose they’d appreciate if his wishes were carried out … about the ashes, I mean.”  I agree that she is very decent, despite the fact that her suspicions are realized in a matter of a minute. By the same token, although we see pain cross her face, she shuts herself off from her feelings. On the end of the line she sounds accommodating, but cold.

There are a few people that Ennis comes across who have deduced his sexual orientation: Aguirre (but Ennis is not aware of this), Alma, Lureen, OMT, Mrs. Twist, and (IMO) Alma, Jr. Some reactions have been compassionate, some disdainful, some bitter, but none violent. This doesn’t detract from Ennis’ frame of reference … that being gay is something to be despised and hidden. Although he knows by the end of the film that he loves Jack and only Jack, he cannot help but to keep all of those feelings “in the closet” (so to speak). Does he realize that he wouldn’t have been killed if he would have loved Jack openly? I can’t say. He has been given some opportunities to experience various reactions from others … none of which lead to murder. I do think he has many regrets. One being that, had he to do over again, he would have made room in his (open) life for Jack.
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2006, 08:45:33 pm »
He fully believes that the story she tells is not the truth. Does he think she knows that, and is deliberately lying? If so, does he think she knows *why* Jack got murdered?

I don't know the answer to either. But re the first one, I don't think at that moment it matters to him whether she's lying or misinformed -- he's too focused on his grief for Jack. Re the second one, again I think he's so focused on his grief he's sort of oblivious to the fact that Lureen gets it.

And I do think she gets it. I think she has realized gradually over the years that Jack is gay. The ever-blonder hair, the increasing hardness and bitterness, the focus on work, the "husbands never want to dance with their wives," the husband who can't imagine why wives would spruce up just to go to bed, the phoned-in marriage. And of course if Jack was murdered and she knows it, that would be confirmation.

So she picks up the receiver knowing that Jack was gay, maybe knowing about Randall, but not about Ennis. But during the course of the call, she figures everything out. Even when she says, "you're the fishin buddy, the huntin buddy, I know that" it may have been dawning on her. Her voice doesn't give anything away, but the "I know that" immediately following the buddy stuff carries a slight hint of it, it's a slightly odd way to put it. But her little squeaks and the tears in her eyes after "we was herdin sheep up on Brokeback" and "we was good friends" show her putting it together for sure.

What is she putting together? Well, she already knows Jack is gay, so it's not a huge leap for her to realize Jack wasn't going up there to fish. But his ashes request and "it was his favorite place," along with what Ennis tells her about the summer of '63, also make her realize that Jack loved Ennis -- had loved him since before they were married, in fact.
 
So yeah, under those circumstances, telling Ennis to get in touch with Jacks' folks was a really, really nice thing for her to do. (That's why I always leap to the defense of Lureen, along with Ennis and now, I guess, Old Man Twist. People are so unfair to her!) And when she says "if his wishes was carried out ... about the ashes I mean" she's suggesting, for whatever mysterious reason of her own, that she knows in contrast to the ashes his wishes in life wasn't carried out.

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In short, would he see the conversation with Lureen as another example of someone who knew he was queer (and further had every reason to resent him deeply) and who yet behaved extremely decently towards him?

Yes, but only in retrospect, because again he is too grief-stricken to pay much attention at the moment.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2006, 11:39:25 pm »
BUMP!!
 :D
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2007, 11:06:08 pm »
bumping the good old questionnaires again!
 :D
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Offline Katie77

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2007, 08:18:23 am »
I just wanted to add something, about the ashes, Laureen and Ennis...

I too think that Laureen had worked out, if not before, at least after Jack was murdered, that he was gay....and once Ennis phoned her, she finally knew who Jack's true love was....

The fact that she had buried half of Jack's ashes and was in favour of Ennis taking the other half of the ashes to Brokeback, was a reflection on how she felt her life with Jack had been......that she had one half of it, and Ennis had the other half.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2009, 09:03:27 am »

As part of bump-fest... I thought I'd bump these really interesting old questionnaires about different aspects of BBM.  I'm hoping some new folks will participate!

There are several of these so look out for them! 8)

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie