Author Topic: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2  (Read 20285 times)

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2006, 02:48:09 pm »
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I am not convinced Jack told his folks anything except that Ennis was his friend. Mrs. Twist certainly knew about the shirts … I think she found them. Mr. Twist heard Jack talking about Ennis and concluded that it was more than a friendship … it was likely a gay relationship.

I didn't mean to imply that I think Jack told his parents he was gay - or that Ennis was. Far from it. That's never even entered my mind. I simply think that as his parents listened to Jack talking about Ennis; - his friend who was to come up help him lick the ranch into shape; - quite animatedly and obviously more then once (Jack used to say...."), - they caught on to the truth. Jack probably never even realized that. He must just have been happy for this opportunity of telling someone about Ennis, saying ennis's name out loud, even when the listener was his horrible father.

However that may be, Jack needn't have said one word about Ennis to his parents, - Ennis would have expected him to have said little or nothing, I think. That Jack *had* actually told them enough to let them catch on to the real nature of his relationship with Ennis (and left the shirts there as further confirmation for Jack's mother to find and interpret) must have come as atotal  surprise to Ennis; - and, I postulate, will benefit Ennis in the long run once he had time to process the Twist couple's behaviour.

I realize that wasn't perhaps entirely clear in my post above - I had recently written a longer post on the same topic in another thread and must subconsciously have assumed that the content of that first post was be apparent from this shorter one without being specifically referenced. My bad.


Otherwise, I completely agree with Katherine's comments. Except I have a tiny niggle when it comes to this  ;):

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(Well, I might say he was a tiny bit tactless in his "If taxes don't take it, inflation eats it up ..." remark, given that he's talking to someone much poorer than himself.)

I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."

I wondered about that scene and what it meant till I had the opportunity to see the Shamus-edited script version and particularly the scene where Jack gives Ennis a fine gun, which Ennis hotly refuses to accept, stressing in his reply to Jack that the gun's too valuable, and that he's keenly aware of their differing financial status - and that it pains him. Yes, I know that scene was removed, and so shouldn't really be referred to as bearing on the understanding of the film, but IMO it's one of several instances where dialogue was altered and/or a scene was removed not because the writers and filmmakers thought it misrepresented their vision of the characters, but because it wasn't low-key and ambiguous enough. They did take great care to ensure ambiguity in scene after scene, through fine-tuning the dialogue etc.

Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived  strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is. :)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 03:00:03 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2006, 03:50:15 pm »
I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."

OK, I can buy that. There goes one of the three times (or is it just two?) in the whole movie when Jack's behavior was less than optimal!

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Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived  strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is. :)

Well, I agree the difference in their financial situation is certainly made obvious, but I don't know how much of a strain I think it created between them. Do you think Ennis is resentful of it? He never seems to be; even when he says Jack forgets what it's like to be broke all the time he seems mainly to be stating a simple fact: Jack doesn't have to worry about his financial status. It probably helps that Jack never makes an issue of it, either. Jack is willing to drive to Wyoming because he's got the better truck, makes no bones about the source of his wealth being his father-in-law, never brags about his possessions or gets hoity-toity.

However, maybe there's evidence of strain that I've overlooked?

Back to Mr. Twist. Quoting myself again, from my previous post:

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My point is that when Mr. Twist talks about it, he very obviously focuses his criticism not on Jack leaving his wife to live with a man -- but on Jack's failure to follow through with yet another of his ideas. I think the nature of his criticism is what's significant, not whether Mr. Twist took it seriously in the first place.

I should clarify that I don't know whether he genuinely resents that Jack didn't follow through. He might, since the ranch looks like it could use the help. Or he might be criticizing Jack just for the hell of it, out of habit and contempt. The point is, though, that of two the things he could find to critize Jack for in that situation -- leaving his wife for a man vs. not following up on his plan to do so -- he chose the more surprising one, the one that's not only not homophobic but actually implicitly endorses homosexual behavior.

Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2006, 04:04:30 pm »
Hunh? This I don't get at all. Why would a 39-year-old man see a role model in an obnoxious old geezer whom he has ever reason to dislike and with whom he has spent no more than an hour or so? And even if so, given that Ennis was taught from childhood that his sexuality should be hated and despised, and given that he was perfectly capable of reinforcing that lesson to himself, thank you very much, and given that all of his other experiences that afternoon had if anything shown him that his sexuality was more nonchalantly accepted than he would imagine possible ... then why on earth would Mr. Twist's views make him feel any more homophobic? Or why would his being convinced Jack was murdered make him more homophobic? If anything, I would think both those experiences would push him in exactly the opposite direction.

I reread my note and I have no idea what I was talking about. I think I started to get a bit sleepy at that moment. I think the point I was making (albeit worded badly ….. ) ummm … actually, I don’t know what I was trying to say. Maybe I was trying to psychologically analyze the situation … Ennis’ dad was homophobic. Ennis transfers what he knows onto Jack’s father … so the assumption is that he is homophobic, too. (Is that Ennis doing that or me? Who knows? I am rambling at this moment).

“To clarify: I'm not saying MYSELF that Jack is snooty! I'd never say that. (Well, I might say he was a tiny bit tactless in his "If taxes don't take it, inflation eats it up ..." remark, given that he's talking to someone much poorer than himself.) I'm saying that's an alternate explanation for what Mr. Twist means when he calls Jack "too special." Jack obviously climbed a few rungs above his parents in socioeconomic status, and Mr. Twist possibly resents that.”

I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."

Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived  strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is.

I agree with what you are getting at. Just as an added point … that whole “inflation scene” … Ennis says, “That sure sounds like high class entertainment” and Jack says, “For what it’s worth”. IMO, the money is not something that Jack cares a lot about. He has it, but would give it up if he could have lived the “sweet life” that he envisioned with Ennis. 

This whole issue sparked another thought … doesn’t all of the money issues (i.e. the differences between Jack and Ennis) actually start on BBM? Jack offers Ennis a loan and Ennis hotly rejects it. Could this be a reason that Jack downplays the money so often?
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2006, 04:17:30 pm »
Ennis’ dad was homophobic. Ennis transfers what he knows onto Jack’s father … so the assumption is that he is homophobic, too. (Is that Ennis doing that or me? Who knows?

Diane, you've hit upon my exact point! The movie very deliberately leads us AND Ennis to assume that Mr. Twist is a homophobe. He ran Jack off, rejected him, never taught him a thing, etc. And because we know Jack is gay, we make the assumption that that's why his father was abusive, and Ennis probably makes the same assumption -- hell, he probably assumes all fathers are homophobes.

But then ... he isn't! It's a surprise twist, so to speak.

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Jack offers Ennis a loan and Ennis hotly rejects it. Could this be a reason that Jack downplays the money so often?

I think this scene suffices to make the point that would have been made with the gun thing. Of course, it's also about Ennis being hurt that Jack's not upset about leaving the mountain early. But it does double duty, also showing that Ennis wouldn't want to accept money from Jack, and teaching Jack not to offer.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2006, 04:59:32 pm »
I'm on a posting roll today, it seems.  :o

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I don't know how much of a strain I think it created between them. Do you think Ennis is resentful of it? He never seems to be; even when he says Jack forgets what it's like to be broke all the time he seems mainly to be stating a simple fact: Jack doesn't have to worry about his financial status.


I don't think it puts an immense strain on the relationship, but I do think it's there. Ennis obviously feels embarrassed that he's got less money than Jack early on; "I ain't in the poorhouse". It does affect Ennis's and Alma's marriage - creating disagreements that Ennis would rather have been without and that ( partly at least) were directly caused by his relationship with Jack and so reflected on the relationship;  keeping to those low-paying jobs he could quit at any time. The "what's the point of making it" scene in itself confirms that money or the lack of same is an actual topic among Jack and Ennis. And while I agree that Ennis says the "You forget what it's like being broke all the time" line in a rather non-accusatory way, quite matter-of-factly, it *is* an assertion that Ennis sees as a fact - and he's obviously thought about it. I also see the emotional "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" as having a certain financial aspect to it. "Being a noone" is often associated with being poor, isn't it? IMO this all adds up to a sliver of resentment, certainly no very major thing, not something the filmmakers wanted to put undue emphasis on, but still there, adding its subtle bit to the increasing strain on Ennis's and Jack's relationship over the years. It's something so very human that I would almost have thought Ennis a complete saint if it *hadn't* been there.


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IMO, the money is not something that Jack cares a lot about. He has it, but would give it up if he could have lived the “sweet life” that he envisioned with Ennis.

Yes, that was one of my two main interpretations when I tried to figure out what exactly Jack meant in talking about "the point of making it". Originally, it was my favoured interpretation. And though I've eventually landed on another view of that specific scene,  I still completely agree that Jack would have given it all upif he only could have had his sweet life with Ennis. If he actually made concrete plans to move back to the dilapidated Twist ranch with Randall, - that's proof enough that he knew being well off didn't matter much without any kind of happiness and love in your life.

But..... Jack wasn't unaffected by the money. He liked having them. Early on he and Ennis agreed "money was a good point" and I'm pretty sure Lureen's money was one of several main reasons he married her - the only reason he gives Ennis, in fact. And I have to wonder; - if a rich marriage and money down in Texas meant so little to Jack, why didn't he leave and return to Wyoming to live closer to Ennis, in order to be able to cross Ennis's path more often, even if Ennis insisted he wouldn't give him the sweet life? Why was Jack so passive in changing their circumstances in order to try to change Ennis's mind? Could money be one of his several reasons there, too? I think Ennis was wrong in one thing: Jack *didn't* forget what it was like, being broke all the time - and I think he didn't particularly wish to re-live that memory, unless it came with a virtual guarantee of a sweet life with ....someone.


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...doesn’t all of the money issues (i.e. the differences between Jack and Ennis) actually start on BBM?

Yes, in the very first scene, even - when Ennis carefully preserves his last half cigarette, and then goes wild and smokes it all up in the bar with Jack.  ;)  Ennis has one beer there, Jack has several - from the very first Jack shows that he has more money than Ennis. And that financial gap widens and widens over the years.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 05:02:46 pm by Mikaela »

ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2006, 05:36:28 pm »
I’d like to weigh in if I could…


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So I realized -- wait a minute, Mr. Twist is threatening and abusive and neglectful and rude and all that bad stuff. But the one thing he isn't, at least not in any obvious way, is homophobic!

I agree.

Watch the part of the scene as Ennis gives his “feel real bad” spiel.  Don’t watch Ennis.  Watch OMT.  Here’s a man who has recently lost his son to an accidental death (we have no reason to believe that OMT sees it any other way).  Along comes a man (Ennis) to talk about Jack.  Because of OMT’s comments later in the scene, we know that during Ennis’ spiel OMT knows that Ennis was a friend of Jack’s (we KNOW that much).  Watching OMT during the spiel, OMT is very stoic, very quiet, he listens to what Ennis says.  Then OMT speaks:

“I’ll tell you what.  I know where Brokeback Mountain is.  Thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot.  (prominent exhale)  Jack used to say… “Ennis del Mar,” he used to say.  “I’m gonna bring him up here one of these days… and we’ll lick this damn ranch into shape.”  He had some half-baked notion the two of you was gonna move up here… build a cabin… help run the place.  (spit)  Then, this spring…he got another fella gonna come up here with him… build the place, help run the ranch.  Some ranch neighbor of his from down in Texas.  Gonna split up with his wife and come back here… so he says.  But, like most of Jack’s ideas… never come to pass.”

Now watch it again.  But don’t watch.  Close your eyes.  Notice OMT’s delivery.  There is very little snippiness in his voice.  It’s very straightforward and mechanical – very much like Lureen in the previous scene.  Hauntingly so.  There is a raw emotion in his voice that, to me, expresses a very reserved sorrow.  Overall, because his son has recently died.  But, here, specifically, because the guy sitting across the table from him is THE guy of whom Jack used to speak.  And what did Jack say about Ennis to OMT?  That they were going to come up, build a cabin, help run the place.  THIS is OMT’s focus here.  Jack left OMT and the ranch when he was about 18-19.  He’s come back sporadically to help sporadically.  And all along, Jack would talk of bringing a guy up there to help run the ranch.  This is what OMT wanted and expected.  And when it didn’t work out to bring Ennis up, Jack started talking about bringing a different man up.  But this didn’t happen either – because of Jack’s death.  Had Ennis come up with Jack, OMT would have had help running the ranch.  AND Jack wouldn’t be dead because Jack wouldn’t have had to have fixed that flat tire in Texas. 

OMT is grieving about his son’s death – in his own way, which we may not agree with or understand, but he is still grieving (or dealing with it?).  But in this particular scene, the focus is on OMT’s two losses – help with the ranch and Jack’s death.  And he puts the blame for both on Ennis.  The first part of OMT’s spiel blames Ennis for the ranch help loss – then he spits and changes focus.  The new focus is now on Jack’s death and OMT’s blaming Ennis for it – nothing after the spit would have happened had Ennis come up with Jack.

This whole spiel came right after Ennis made his spiel.  And what did Ennis say?  He feels bad about Jack, knew him a long time, take his ashes up on Brokeback.  What’s the subtext?  "I’m someone special to Jack and I’m worthy of stepping in here and fulfilling Jack’s last wish."

But OMT’s response refutes what Ennis just said.  His entire spiel blames Ennis for not fulfilling a wish of Jack’s (one that would have helped OMT) and it blames Ennis for Jack’s death.  What OMT is really saying here is “You’re not so goddamn special.  You didn’t fulfill his earlier wish and he dropped you like a half-baked hot potato (  ;) ).  And now you expect to walk into my home and say that you’re the special one who should carry out his last wish?”  And then post-closet he adds (subtextually) “I’m his family and I’ll decide what’s best for my son.”  And after each spiel of OMT denigrating Ennis and his “specialness,” Mrs. Twist reassures Ennis that Ennis really is someone special.  She offers that Ennis can go up to Jack’s room – a very personal thing to offer – and she asks him to come back.  I have always seen a Christian symbolism here in that she offered him coffee and cherry cake (communion, wine and bread) and at the end she asks him to come back (communion, fellowship).

The main focus of the Twist home scene is the “specialness” of Ennis to Jack.  OMT focuses on why Ennis isn’t so special.  Jack tells Ennis he is special (the shirts).  Mrs. Twist confirms this to Ennis, in effect, disagreeing with her husband.  Who, interestingly enough, does not throw out an objection.  He has already had his final word on how “special” Ennis is… he didn’t release Jack’s ashes to Ennis.


Now, what does all of this have to do with OMT’s possible homophobia?


It’s all about what he knows or doesn’t know.  As latjoreme said:

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… it doesn't matter how Mr. Twist knew Jack was gay.  Only that he knew it.


If OMT does NOT know about Jack, then a discussion of OMT’s homophobia is not relevant here.  Let’s say OMT is a racist.  It’s not an issue HERE because Ennis is not from another race.  If OMT is sexist, it’s not an issue HERE because Ennis is not a woman.  If OMT is homophobic, then it is not an issue HERE because OMT doesn’t know about Ennis – this is if we accept the premise that OMT does NOT know.

So what if we accept the premise that OMT DOES know?  Here’s where a discussion of potential homophobia becomes a relevant issue.  Now, to discuss his potential homophobia we must look at the interaction (as we just did).  The focus is on OMT’s losses and that he blames Ennis for them.  The focus is on showing Ennis that he is no one special because OMT blames Ennis for the losses.  Had Ennis agreed to come up with Jack, OMT would have accepted that.  This is pretty clear because OMT did NOT voice a displeasure with such a situation.  In fact, he blames Ennis’ not coming up there for his first loss – ranch help.  Also, as Ennis walks out with the shirts, OMT does NOT stop him.  He has made his point about how “unspecial” Ennis is.  He is going to keep the ashes.  So why not let the guy take the shirts.  Shirts -- a personal, intimate remembrance.  Not the little horsey.  Not the little rifle.  But the shirts.  In my opinion, OMT DOES know and he doesn’t care.  If he is homophobic, he hides it well (yet he didn’t hide his other displeasure at all).  The filmmakers also hide it well – because it isn’t there.  Once again, two things at play here.  First the viewer does not get what it may naturally expect as being obvious.  Second, as is shown throughout the film, “societal” homophobia is not the relevant factor in Ennis’ character – his own internalized homophobia is.


This is all why I agree completely with this observation from latjoreme (and latjoreme and I do not always agree):

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When you come right down to it, the very fact that he might be despicable, yet not homophobic, means more than the fact that nice Mrs. Twist isn't homophobic. And because he's the father of a gay man, as was Ennis' evil dad, it's an unmistakable parallel. Much as he might resent Mr. Twist's rudeness, this must have been more stunning to Ennis than Mrs. Twist's kindness. Mr. Twist is an asshole -- yet very pointedly not a homophobic asshole.

… I now think we're meant to notice that he's just plain not homophobic. So, in Ennis' mind [what’s the significance]? It's the very opposite of what his own dad taught him to expect.


Mikaela is correct in noting:

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…the Mr. Twist/Mr. Del Mar contrast that you point out Katherine, is especially difficult to notice due to the audiences' preconceived notions, which we share with Ennis.

And

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… [Ennis] still believes or fears Mr. Twist *must* surely be a homophobe when he leaves … I see it in the way Ennis holds the shirts when he gets back down - shielding them somewhat from Mr. Twist, sending him a worried, pained look … he still expects homophobia to reveal itself in the most painful way possible.

And MOST importantly:

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But it doesn't.

And another good observation:

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Ennis fears everyone can look at him and *know*. The meeting with Mr. Twist shows him that even if that were so, for most of those people there are other hang-ups, other more important issues in the world - that they in fact, even when faced directly with the issue of homosexuality, may not consider that a big deal compared to other matters.

And another good observation from Atz75:

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I also think that Ennis rolled the shirts up in a way so that only Jack's blue shirt is really visible while his own shirt is very much hidden.  This I think shows he's still very worried about a homophobic reaction.

And:

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… about their queer-ness not being a big deal to many/ some people (as opposed to Ennis's somewhat overblown fear about intense homophobic reaction at every turn)... I think it's extremely important that in this case the people who don't seem to take it as such a big deal are Jack's parents.  Some of the most important people in their lives (had they lived together) seemingly would have accepted them (even if grudgingly on the part of Mr. Twist).  They aren't just random people who might be OK with Jack and Ennis being gay... These were potentially Ennis's "in-laws."

Excellent point!


Now, dly64 (someone I often agree with) and I are not on the same page here.


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What Mr. Twist is relaying is his contempt for Jack, Jack’s lover, and Jack’s lifestyle. IMO, Mr. Twist is giving Ennis, Jack, Jack’s ideas, etc. the finger. Since Jack could never please his father … do you really think Mr. Twist thought Jack would actually move up there and help run the ranch? Mr. Twist makes it clear that Jack’s ideas were foolish and that, “like most of Jack’s ideas it never come to pass.”

I don’t see contempt for Jack here as much as OMT defending Jack.  It’s as if he’s saying that Jack HAD an idea that OMT would have accepted.  But it didn’t come to pass.  And why not?  Because of Ennis – to OMT, that is.  OMT said Jack's ideas never came to pass.  Again, closing my eyes and listening to the tone of voice, and keeping in mind that he’s saying this to Ennis, blaming Ennis, makes me think that OMT is not making a judgment on Jack’s ideas as much as he’s expressing dismay that his recently deceased son never had any of his wishes come to pass – even though he went out into the world and made a go of it.  Sure enough, I can see a bit of judgment here, but given the spiel in context, I think it’s much more about how to pass the blame for Jack’s ideas never coming to pass.  Ennis knows damn well here that he IS to blame for Jack’s idea of living on the ranch together never coming to pass and Ennis is most likely haunted by the notion that he is indirectly to blame for Jack’s death – because if Jack only hadn’t been there at that time… and he wouldn’t have been, but for Ennis.  This scene reinforces Ennis’ guilt by OMT reinforcing the blame that Ennis has already put on his own shoulders, and this scene compounds the guilt by showing Ennis that a should-be parallel to his own father is not sitting across from him at the table with a tire iron in his lap.

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When Ennis comes down with the shirts, he holds them away from Mr. Twist. John represents societal homophobia …. an abusive SOB who probably figured his son was gay when he was a child (could have John been gay himself and took it out on his son?? Just a thought). Mrs. Twist represents compassion and love … despite what others may think of her son and his lover. IMO, Ennis became even more homophobic after he left the Twist’s. He saw the hatred in Mr. Twist. He assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Jack had been murdered because someone “found out.” Even though Ennis received compassion from Jack’s mother, it is the male “role model” who shows that his sexuality should be hated and despised.

I don’t see it this way.

First, let me be very clear – OMT is an asshole and I am not defending him.  I’m just expressing what I believe is more observable in the scene.

That said, if we are going to look at what each of the three characters represents at the moment Ennis brings the shirts down, I’d have to go more with something like this:

Ennis – homophobia – he tries to hide evidence of their relationship from what he fears to be the homophobia in the room.

OMT – begrudged tolerance of homosexuality -- he doesn’t smile, but he doesn’t stop Ennis, either.

Mrs. Twist – actual acceptance of homosexuality – she smiles and aids Ennis.


As to the discussion of “too goddamn special,” it probably has its roots in things like Jack’s leaving the ranch at 18-19 to find his own way in life, or his increased economic status, etc.  But I think it’s more important to see it as a lead-in to OMT’s observations of Ennis not being anyone special  -- “Don’t come in here acting so goddamn special that you’re going to do the “family thing” and take his ashes to Brokeback.  Jack wasn’t that goddamn special and neither are you.”


As to the discussion on the effect this scene has on Ennis, I agree with mikaela:

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… That Jack *had* actually told them enough to let them catch on to the real nature of his relationship with Ennis (and left the shirts there as further confirmation for Jack's mother to find and interpret) must have come as atotal  surprise to Ennis; - and, I postulate, will benefit Ennis in the long run once he had time to process the Twist couple's behaviour.



Finally, mikaela said:

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And I have to wonder; - if a rich marriage and money down in Texas meant so little to Jack, why didn't he leave and return to Wyoming to live closer to Ennis, in order to be able to cross Ennis's path more often, even if Ennis insisted he wouldn't give him the sweet life? Why was Jack so passive in changing their circumstances in order to try to change Ennis's mind? Could money be one of his several reasons there, too? I think Ennis was wrong in one thing: Jack *didn't* forget what it was like, being broke all the time - and I think he didn't particularly wish to re-live that memory, unless it came with a virtual guarantee of a sweet life with ....someone.

I can agree with all of this, but also remember Bobby.





« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 05:52:31 pm by ruthlesslyunsentimental »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2006, 07:58:09 pm »
Whoa there people!  Wow, I guess I'm not the only one around here who talks a blue streak.  I think I need to pour some Old Rose whiskey before I tackle this discussion again.
 ;) :laugh:
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ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2006, 08:03:41 pm »
Whoa there people!  Wow, I guess I'm not the only one around here who talks a blue streak.  I think I need to pour some Old Rose whiskey before I tackle this discussion again.
 ;) :laugh:

I've never been accused of being "Ruthlessly Taciturn."





Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2006, 09:06:09 pm »
Hey there Friends,

I'm here to advertise the new Jack's questionnaire thread.  I got quite carried away...  But, since I know none of you are afraid of a little typing... I'm sure you're all up to the challenge.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3196.msg56554#msg56554
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline dly64

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Re: Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2006, 09:27:42 pm »
Now watch it again.  But don’t watch.  Close your eyes.  Notice OMT’s delivery.  There is very little snippiness in his voice.  It’s very straightforward and mechanical – very much like Lureen in the previous scene.  Hauntingly so.  There is a raw emotion in his voice that, to me, expresses a very reserved sorrow.  Overall, because his son has recently died.  But, here, specifically, because the guy sitting across the table from him is THE guy of whom Jack used to speak.  And what did Jack say about Ennis to OMT?  That they were going to come up, build a cabin, help run the place.  THIS is OMT’s focus here.  Jack left OMT and the ranch when he was about 18-19.  He’s come back sporadically to help sporadically.  And all along, Jack would talk of bringing a guy up there to help run the ranch.  This is what OMT wanted and expected.  And when it didn’t work out to bring Ennis up, Jack started talking about bringing a different man up.  But this didn’t happen either – because of Jack’s death.  Had Ennis come up with Jack, OMT would have had help running the ranch.  AND Jack wouldn’t be dead because Jack wouldn’t have had to have fixed that flat tire in Texas. 

OMT is grieving about his son’s death – in his own way, which we may not agree with or understand, but he is still grieving (or dealing with it?).  But in this particular scene, the focus is on OMT’s two losses – help with the ranch and Jack’s death.  And he puts the blame for both on Ennis.  The first part of OMT’s spiel blames Ennis for the ranch help loss – then he spits and changes focus.  The new focus is now on Jack’s death and OMT’s blaming Ennis for it – nothing after the spit would have happened had Ennis come up with Jack.

I can concede that Mr. Twist isn’t completely homophobic. I think we can all agree he was a SOB. As for grieving Jack’s death? Maybe I am clueless here, but I just don’t see it. The only thing he may be grieving is someone who could help him run the ranch. Mr. Twist is a lot of things … but caring about someone other than himself? No way. I also don’t see Mr. Twist blaming Ennis for what has happened. I don’t think he gave a hoot. I don’t think OMT cares how Jack died or that he’s even dead (that’s a very strong statement. Maybe I am transferring my own beliefs into this. But, that’s how I view Mr. Twist). It’s not like OMT ever went out of his way to be present for his son. He never taught him anything. He never watched him ride. He never met Lureen. He never met his son. Does that sound like someone who cared one iota about his own flesh and blood? This doesn’t mean that Jack didn’t try pleasing his father. Studies have shown that, despite having an abusive parent, a child will do anything to try to gain his/her parents’ love. IMO, no matter what Jack would have done, it would have never been good enough. Mr. Twist was so egocentric, I don’t think he cared whether or not Ennis may or may not have had the ability to save his son.

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This whole spiel came right after Ennis made his spiel.  And what did Ennis say?  He feels bad about Jack, knew him a long time, take his ashes up on Brokeback.  What’s the subtext?  "I’m someone special to Jack and I’m worthy of stepping in here and fulfilling Jack’s last wish."

But OMT’s response refutes what Ennis just said.  His entire spiel blames Ennis for not fulfilling a wish of Jack’s (one that would have helped OMT) and it blames Ennis for Jack’s death.  What OMT is really saying here is “You’re not so goddamn special.  You didn’t fulfill his earlier wish and he dropped you like a half-baked hot potato (  ;) ).  And now you expect to walk into my home and say that you’re the special one who should carry out his last wish?”  And then post-closet he adds (subtextually) “I’m his family and I’ll decide what’s best for my son.”  And after each spiel of OMT denigrating Ennis and his “specialness,” Mrs. Twist reassures Ennis that Ennis really is someone special.  She offers that Ennis can go up to Jack’s room – a very personal thing to offer – and she asks him to come back.  I have always seen a Christian symbolism here in that she offered him coffee and cherry cake (communion, wine and bread) and at the end she asks him to come back (communion, fellowship).

I think your theory about the communion is an interesting one … considering Jack talked about his mother believing in the Pentecost and the prominent display of the cross in the Twists’ home. Beyond that, I just don’t see eye to eye at all. Mr. Twist doesn’t give up Jack’s ashes because he thinks he knows what’s best for his son. He doesn’t give them up because that’s what Jack wanted. OMT is asserting his control over Jack … even in death. Mr. Twist is a vain jerk. Nothing he does or says has anything to do with his love for Jack. On the contrary … he’s sticking it to Jack. He’s sticking it to Ennis.

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The main focus of the Twist home scene is the “specialness” of Ennis to Jack.  OMT focuses on why Ennis isn’t so special.  Jack tells Ennis he is special (the shirts).  Mrs. Twist confirms this to Ennis, in effect, disagreeing with her husband.  Who, interestingly enough, does not throw out an objection.  He has already had his final word on how “special” Ennis is… he didn’t release Jack’s ashes to Ennis.

As stated above … I just can’t agree with this completely. I do think Mrs. Twist, after hearing her husband crush Ennis, allows Ennis to go up to Jack’s room in hopes that he will find the shirts. This does relay to Ennis that he was the love of Jack’s life. It isn’t until Ennis comes down with the shirts and they are put in the bag that OMT says, “Tell you what. We got a family plot. He’s goin’ in it.” i.e. Mr. Twist has the last word.


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I don’t see contempt for Jack here as much as OMT defending Jack.  It’s as if he’s saying that Jack HAD an idea that OMT would have accepted.  But it didn’t come to pass.  And why not?  Because of Ennis – to OMT, that is.  OMT said Jack's ideas never came to pass.  Again, closing my eyes and listening to the tone of voice, and keeping in mind that he’s saying this to Ennis, blaming Ennis, makes me think that OMT is not making a judgment on Jack’s ideas as much as he’s expressing dismay that his recently deceased son never had any of his wishes come to pass – even though he went out into the world and made a go of it.  Sure enough, I can see a bit of judgment here, but given the spiel in context, I think it’s much more about how to pass the blame for Jack’s ideas never coming to pass.  Ennis knows damn well here that he IS to blame for Jack’s idea of living on the ranch together never coming to pass and Ennis is most likely haunted by the notion that he is indirectly to blame for Jack’s death – because if Jack only hadn’t been there at that time… and he wouldn’t have been, but for Ennis.  This scene reinforces Ennis’ guilt by OMT reinforcing the blame that Ennis has already put on his own shoulders, and this scene compounds the guilt by showing Ennis that a should-be parallel to his own father is not sitting across from him at the table with a tire iron in his lap.

Again, I can acknowledge that Mr. Twist was not homophobic … at least to the degree that I saw him previously. As for Mr. Twist giving a damn about how his son died and then blaming Ennis for it? I just can’t agree. Mr. Twist was needling Jack in death as he did in life. He didn’t care what his son wanted.  He only cared that he hurt the one person Jack loved  … Ennis. His motivation for this was not out of love or despair over Jack’s death. It was Mr. Twist’s controlling, abusive nature that influenced every decision he made. It was no coincidence that OMT, in essence, had the “last word”
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."