Author Topic: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)  (Read 7994 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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Hi Bettermostians  :D,

after a long hiatus, we have another TOTW.

First a few words concerning the TOTW. This feature will be going on, but no longer on a weekly basis. I'll continue to put up a TOTW at irregular intervals, whenever I think of something interesting or when someone suggests a topic (so please continue to do so :)).


Now on with today's topic:
This topic was suggested by TempaTalon. Thank you Steve!

Our topic this week is story-related and starts out with two quotes and some questions.

From the story:

"Behind her in the room lightning lit the window like a white sheet waving in the wind and the baby cried.“
(after Ennis introduced Jack)

Some thoughts/questions on the above quote from Steve (TempaTalon):

White sheet waving= surrender of marriage or surrender of Jack & Ennis to each other finally?

Baby cries=great sadness? The beginning of the end for marriage or beginning of the end for Jack and Ennis?



Just a few paragraphs above we read these sentences by Annie Proulx:
„The door opened again a few inches and Alma stood in the narrow light. What could he say? „Alma, this is Jack Twist, Jack, my wife Alma.“ His chest was heaving. [...]. „Alma,“ he said, „Jack and me ain't seen each other in four years. As if it were a reason.“


When rereading the part with the reunion kiss and subsequently Jack meeting Alma a new thought occurred to me: did Ennis realize that Alma had seen them kissing? What does he provide an explanation for with his comment about the four years? - For their kiss/making out session (IMO).  As if it were a reason – for what? Again, for their kiss.

It's that little sentence „as if it were a reason“ which makes me think story-Ennis might have realized that she saw them. Of course, E&J both must have been aware that they were quite a suspicious or at least strange sight: trembling like a run out horse, chest heaving, etc. But somehow I think Ennis did refer not only to their actual state, but also to the kiss seconds earlier.


What are your thoughts on the symbolism in Steve's sentence and the question about the kiss? Let's discuss the subtleties of the scene


Jack meeting Alma


« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 07:14:57 am by Penthesilea »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 03:27:07 pm »


Just dropping by to say this is a great topic!  :D 

I'll come back and post a real response later tonight when I'm home from work.
:)

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Offline tampatalon

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 05:00:52 pm »
Well, as always, I find Ms Proulx words brilliantly placed. Along with
the symbolism of the "white sheet" of course once again the word
"wind" appears so wonderfully intertwined!


TampaTalon^">
"Lean on me, Let our hearts beat in time, Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long. Who cares where we go on this rutted old road, In a world that may say that we're wrong."--EmmyLou Harris

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 09:28:17 pm »
In the SS, I think Ennis was so worked up and over the moon in that moment, that he didn't care if Alma figured it out. Jack too in the SS was overcome with emotion and shaking because of it (been there!). In the film, that scene seems more subdued. It didn't seem Jack was trembling or overcome with emotion, which I would have liked to have seen. The symbolism of the scene is something I don't think has been discussed, and right now I have no ideas. So I'll ponder it for a while, hmmm.....

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2009, 05:02:17 pm »
I have a hard time making up my mind. On the one hand, I do´t feel it´s  consistant with the rest of the story that Ennis knows that Alma knows. He´s so paranoid, surely he would have reacted to being caught in the act?
On the other hand,the scene itself suggests it.

It´s very sketchy and I think it´s supposed to be that way. I think Annie meant for us to make up our own minds, just like with the details surrounding Jack´s death.

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2009, 05:05:06 pm »
It didn't seem Jack was trembling or overcome with emotion, which I would have liked to have seen.
I agree. I can see it during the kissing scene, but not when he meets Alma. One of my favorite lines from the ss is the one about Ennis being able to feel Jack tremble.
Everytime I watch that scene I wish they would have been a little more out of breath :)

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2009, 12:50:03 am »
The short story and the film, certainly do show two different scenarios of the introduction to Alma.

Even though they are puffing and trembling in the SS, and Enis uses the excuse about not seeing each other for four years, I still do not think that Ennis is aware that Alma saw them kissing. I think he is using that excuse to explain their excitement and the visual that is now in front of Alma as they are introduced.  I think they were the only words that Ennis could think of at the time to try to cover up any reason for Alma to be suspicious of how they both looked.

If Ennis had thought Alma had seen them kissing, I think he would have left and never come back.
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2009, 04:13:19 am »
I'm going to respond as if the question was "Do I think Ennis knew Alma saw them kiss?"  And i"m going to only reference the movie.

I don't think Ennis ever thought Alma suspected a thing until the Thanksgiving scene in the kitchen.  I don't think he would have so arrogantly said, "I'd be happy to leave you alone" moments before the divorce scene, if he thought she thought he was gay.  I don't think he would have said "Once burned" right before she confronted him in the Thanksgiving scene, if he'd thought she thought he was gay.  Both times he is acting like their lack of success in the marriage was her fault.

Also, right after she confronts him on Thanksgiving is the first time he asks Jack, "Lureen don't suspect?"  I think he only gave indication that he thought he was getting away with his fishing trips actually being trysts until then.

Also, and I've brought this up before and I don't think anyone has yet ever agreed with me on this - I think that Monroe, Junior, and Jenny totally hear the Thanksgiving exchange, at least the end parts, which were louder.  And it's why we never see Jenny after that moment, and why Junior suggests he might not be the marrying kind.



Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2009, 06:09:06 am »
I'm going to respond as if the question was "Do I think Ennis knew Alma saw them kiss?"  And i"m going to only reference the movie.

I don't think Ennis ever thought Alma suspected a thing until the Thanksgiving scene in the kitchen.  I don't think he would have so arrogantly said, "I'd be happy to leave you alone" moments before the divorce scene, if he thought she thought he was gay.  I don't think he would have said "Once burned" right before she confronted him in the Thanksgiving scene, if he'd thought she thought he was gay.  Both times he is acting like their lack of success in the marriage was her fault.



I agree. In the movie there´s never any doubt that Ennis doesn´t know, in my mind.
I find it more vague in the ss though.

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2009, 06:29:18 am »
Also, and I've brought this up before and I don't think anyone has yet ever agreed with me on this - I think that Monroe, Junior, and Jenny totally hear the Thanksgiving exchange, at least the end parts, which were louder.  And it's why we never see Jenny after that moment, and why Junior suggests he might not be the marrying kind.




I agree, that Monroe and the girls would have heard the argument at Thanksgiving. I dont think Jenny would have been old enough to comprehend what was actually going on, other than to see that her Mum and Dad were having an argument. I do think Junior probably got the gist of what was happening. In those days though, I doubt if she would have understood completely what was actually going on, but as she got older she  might have become more aware of things.
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2009, 07:21:11 am »
I agree. In the movie there´s never any doubt that Ennis doesn´t know, in my mind.
I find it more vague in the ss though.

Yup, agreed with Monika and Elle as far as movie-Ennis is concerned.
I was asking specifically about story-Ennis, guess I didn't make myself very clear. I edited the question in the OP accordingly.

Another point that might back my theory that story-Ennis knew (or at least was very aware of the possibility) about Alma seeing the kiss is the fact that storyEnnis is less paranoid than movieEnnis, as we've stated often before.


Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2009, 03:08:35 pm »
Yup, agreed with Monika and Elle as far as movie-Ennis is concerned.
I was asking specifically about story-Ennis, guess I didn't make myself very clear. I edited the question in the OP accordingly.



I got it, but just got a bit carried away as always :)

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2009, 03:16:43 pm »
Thinking of the scene from Alma´s perspective...I think that the Ennis she saw kissing Jack was a man she hardly recognised; passionate, reckless, unrestrained.
I don´t think she ever got to see that part of Ennis and what she saw that day was a glimpse of something totaly unfamiliar to her.

In another thread we discussed Jack being the wind or the sun, and Ennis the earth. I wonder where Alma fits into all of that. Maybe she is the moon. Dependable, pale bleak and while the sun scorches the moon soothes. And when the sun is up, we don't see the moon and vice versa.


Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2009, 03:31:56 pm »
Thinking of the scene from Alma´s perspective...I think that the Ennis she saw kissing Jack was a man she hardly recognised; passionate, reckless, unrestrained.
I don´t think she ever got to see that part of Ennis and what she saw that day was a glimpse of something totaly unfamiliar to her.


Interesting, but I think Alma had seen Ennis like that before. The tobaggan slide romping, the sex scene after he puts the girls to bed, for example. What I believe Alma saw was the man she used to know...with his vitality being directed to someone other than herself. That was her horror and shock and disappointment.

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2009, 03:42:24 pm »
Interesting, but I think Alma had seen Ennis like that before. The tobaggan slide romping, the sex scene after he puts the girls to bed, for example. What I believe Alma saw was the man she used to know...with his vitality being directed to someone other than herself. That was her horror and shock and disappointment.


I just can´t imagining Ennis shoving Alma up against the wall like he did with Jack.




Or perhaps I just don´t want to  ;D





It´s always interesting to hear how we all interpret the story so differently. Love these discussions

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2009, 03:48:50 pm »
Interesting point, Herr. I think you are right. In the sex scene with Alma, the story describes in some detail how he worked to get her satisfied before flipping her over on the bed. It sounds like he wasn't too gentle.

Another thing I like about the Jack meets Alma scene is that Jack is described as "trembling like a run-out horse." This just after Ennis had called him "little darling" like he did his horses (and daughters). Later on, Ennis tells Jack he's sleeping on his feet like a horse. If Jack reminds Ennis of his beloved creatures, his affection for him would have increased even more.

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Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2009, 03:50:56 pm »
Interesting point, Herr. I think you are right. In the sex scene with Alma, the story describes in some detail how he worked to get her satisfied before flipping her over on the bed. It sounds like he wasn't too gentle.


But is that really passion? Sounds to me like having sex with Alma was just another sort of masturbation for him.

 

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2009, 04:15:30 pm »
It is hard to tell from the story (a little clearer in the movie) but we and Ennis knew that his heart really wasn't in it. Alma would have been clueless though, especially since she was presumably a virgin when she married Ennis.

We also can't conclude anything from the sledding scene because that didn't appear in the story. But I think Ang Lee was communicating subliminally by setting the scene in snowy winter that Ennis had put his real passions in the deep freeze. However, I know that the scene was originally supposed to be set in a parking lot in summer, so that is neither here nor there.
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: TOTW 01/09: Jack meeting Alma - symbolism and questions (story-related)
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2009, 06:22:39 pm »
From the film, we also never see how ennis and cassie actually empassioned themselves. but, from the type of gal Cassie appeared to be and the extent to which see seemed to pursue ennis, he probably was pretty aggressive with her too.

So, I think ennis had it in him and exhibited strongly passionate behavior on occasion with certain people. Alma knew he was a bucking bronco, so to speak, and her shock was seeing it displaced to someone else.