Author Topic: Dave Cullen's new book  (Read 22702 times)

Offline Ellemeno

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Dave Cullen's new book
« on: March 12, 2009, 04:58:49 pm »
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 10:04:53 pm by Ellemeno »

Offline Fran

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 05:25:33 pm »
I'm looking forward to reading it.

Thanks for the update, Clarissa.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2009, 08:29:34 pm »
I couldn't seem to find it.
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Offline Ellemeno

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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2009, 01:26:50 pm »
Dave Cullen just got done taping the Oprah show!

http://www.oprah.com/dated/oprahshow/oprahshow-20090415-columbine

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - will be on Oprah Monday, April 20!
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2009, 01:54:25 pm »
Oprah, New Yorker....   Dave's PR people are on the ball!

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - will be on Oprah Monday, April 20!
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2009, 08:14:55 pm »
Oprah, New Yorker....   Dave's PR people are on the ball!


Yes, that's what I've been thinking.

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - will be on Oprah Monday, April 20!
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 11:46:26 pm »


http://www.slate.com/id/2216122/


The Four Most Important Lessons of Columbine
How "leakage" and the "active shooter protocol" have prevented
other tragedies.





Click here to see home video of Harris and Klebold
conducting mock attack and weapons training
http://www.slatev.com/player.html?id=19837693001

By Dave Cullen
Updated Thursday, April 16, 2009, at 7:05 AM ET


How did Columbine change America?

In the years after the tragedy, Americans feared copycat crimes, that children would carry out deadly school attacks.

In the 10 years since Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold struck, numerous teenagers have plotted to blow up their high schools, and several have proceeded to the action stage. But none has succeeded. Others have sought to kill with automatic weapons, both in and outside of schools. Some succeeded, but most of them, too, have been thwarted.

Part of the reason why there has not been another Columbine is that the police, school administrators, parents, and children learned the four most important lessons of Columbine (in some cases, a little too well).

The first lesson is really one that we have unlearned, which is that there actually isn't a distinct psychological profile of the school killer. Pre-Columbine, teachers, parents, journalists, and the general public were pretty clear on where we thought the danger lay: loners and outcasts, troubled misfits who could not figure out how to fit in. Harris and Klebold were mistakenly tagged with all those characteristics in the first hours after their attack. Every characterization of them was wrong, both in their case and for shooters generally. The FBI conducted a ground-breaking study to help teachers assess threats in their classrooms. Oddballs were not the problem, the FBI concluded. Oddballs did not fit the profile, because there was no profile. In a surprisingly empathetic report, the bureau urged school administrators to quit focusing on the misfits. These were not our killers, and weren't they having enough trouble already?

The Secret Service and U.S. Department of Education studied every American school shooting from 1974 to 2000—37 separate attacks—and reached the same conclusion. Shooters came from all ethnic, economic, and social classes. Most had no history of violence and came from solid, two-parent homes.

They had a few things in common. All were male. Ninety-eight percent had suffered a recent loss or failure. It could be as minor as blowing a test or getting dumped, yet they perceived it as serious. But they didn't lash out in a fit of passion: That notion is another insidious myth. Ninety-three percent planned their attacks in advance.

This leads us to the second, and perhaps most important, lesson learned from Columbine: what the FBI calls "leakage." Gunfire in the classroom is the final stage of a long-simmering attack. The Secret Service found that 81 percent of shooters had explicitly revealed their intentions. Most told two people. Some told more. Kids are bad at secrets. The grander the plot, the more likely to sprout leaks.

The dramatic change post-Columbine is now we believe the leaks. Many potentially deadly plots have been foiled since Columbine because of leakage. In 2001, a pair of Colorado middle-schoolers procured a Columbine-like arsenal: TEC-9, shotgun, rifles, and propane bombs. They recruited gunmen to cover more exits. One of them told at least seven people that he planned to "redo Columbine." He bragged to four girls that they would be the first to die. The girls went straight to the police. Since Columbine, kids take threats seriously.

We have taken the principle of leakage to excess. The belief that any unkind word may signal mortal danger caused school districts to impose zero-tolerance policies. All threats, physical and verbal, are taken seriously and treated severely.

The taking seriously part is fine. We do need to investigate every "joke," just in case. But we also need to respond reasonably. We should not execute a search warrant every time a little kid points his finger and goes, "Bang." And while the teenager who says he's going to blow up his school should have his house searched, if the search turns up empty—no explosives, no ingredients, no Anarchist Cookbook, no diagrams, and no manifesto—the worst thing administrators can do is expel him. If we want our kids safe, we need to resist the urge to make an example of someone who spoke stupidly but had no plan. Punishing him harshly sets exactly the wrong example to the crucial audience: friends of the next "joker." That's because kids remain the best early warning system. We're counting on kids to turn in a friend, even when they're sure he's innocent, just to be safe. They need to know that if they report a "joke" and it turns out to be a joke, there are no consequences except brief embarrassment. If they're wrong and it's not a joke, they'll save lives. We need to convince them to let adults make that determination. We can only do that by giving the jokester a pass if it's just a joke.

The third key lesson of Columbine: We need to prepare students and teachers better for an emergency. Harris and Klebold caught their high school unprepared. We're less naive now. Most kids and their teachers are now drilled on lockdowns and evacuations. Police departments have up-to-date floor plans and alarm codes. (At Columbine, SWAT teams were hampered by ear-splitting sirens and searched for the library on the wrong end of the school building, unaware a new wing had recently been added.)

And the final practical lesson of Columbine is a revolution in police response tactics. Cops followed the old book at Columbine: surround the building, set up a perimeter, contain the damage. That approach has been replaced by the "active shooter protocol." Optimally, it calls for a four-person team to advance in a diamond-shaped wedge. (If there isn't time to gather four officers, a single officer should charge in alone.) They're trained to move toward the sound of gunfire and neutralize the shooter. Their goal is to stop him at all costs. They will walk past a dying child if they have to, just to prevent the shooter from killing more. The active protocol has proved successful at numerous shootings during the past decade. At Virginia Tech alone, it probably saved dozens of lives.
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Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - will be on Oprah Monday, April 20!
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 03:11:29 pm »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/20/oprah-cancels-columbine-a_n_188972.html

Oprah Cancels Columbine
Anniversary Show



FILE - In this Dec. 5, 2008 file photo, Oprah Winfrey arrives at
The Hollywood Reporter 's annual Women in
Entertainment Breakfast in Beverly Hills, Calif.
(AP Photo/Chris Pizzello, file)


CHICAGO — Oprah Winfrey decided Monday to pull an already-taped episode of her talk show that was to mark the 10th anniversary of the Columbine High School massacre, saying it "focused too much on the killers."

The episode, "10 Years Later: The Truth about Columbine," was to air on the Monday anniversary of the massacre in Littleton, Colo., that killed 12 students and a teacher.

"I decided to pull the Columbine show today. After reviewing it, I thought it focused too much on the killers. Today, hold a thought for the Columbine community. This is a hard day for them," Winfrey wrote on Oprah.com and her Facebook page. A similar message appeared on her Twitter feed.

A Harpo Productions Inc. spokeswoman confirmed the posts.

Columbine Task Force lead investigator Kate Battan, FBI special agent Dwayne Fuselier, Dave Cullen --author of the book "Columbine"--   and Columbine High School principal Frank DeAngelis had taped the episode of "The Oprah Winfrey Show."

Winfrey said a program about a mother released from prison would run in place of the Columbine piece.

On the Net:

http://www.oprah.com/

Filed by Katherine Thomson
"Tu doives entendre je t'aime."
(and you know who I am...)


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and Pee-wee in the 1990 episode
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2009, 12:52:42 am »
I was thinking the same thing.  I was sick to my stomach of the shows that were airing on the Columbine tragedy.  The one I started to watch began with the story of the killers and I was thinking this is exactly what they did their crime spree for - to be infamous! - I turned it off.  I'll let the professionals deal with learning from the killers, luckily, I don't have to.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2009, 09:19:13 am »
Leonard Pitts: 10 years after Columbine, reflecting on evil

06:48 PM CDT on Friday, April 17, 2009

Ten years ago today, two boys, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, walked into Columbine High in Littleton, Colo. and unleashed hell, killing 13 people, wounding 23 and then committing suicide. In the process, they also unleashed a firestorm of speculation from media-appointed experts, jostling to answer what was suddenly the most important question in the world:

Also Online
What's The Big Story? Find out at dallasnews.com/opinion

Blog: Opinion
"Why? Lord, why?" They told us video games did it. They said years of bullying did it. They said being ostracized did it. They said violent movies did it. They said bad parenting did it.

I said evil did it.

That observation was not especially popular. Small wonder. What do you say after you say evil did it? The very idea stops the discussion, forecloses the hopeful notion that there is something we can do, some measure we can take, to keep this obscenity from happening again. If you say bullying did it, you can seek ways to curtail bullying. If you say video games did it, you can pass laws to curtail video games.

But how can you curtail evil? What law can do that?

And yet, here we are, 10 years out, and I find myself reading reports on the new scholarship that has sprung up around the Littleton massacre, including a book called Columbine by Dave Cullen. And the consensus seems to be that everything we thought we knew about why those boys did what they did is wrong.

Turns out they were not bullied. Nor were they outcasts. Nor were they unduly influenced by violent movies. Nor were their parents bad.

Turns out they were simply two profoundly damaged boys.

Which brings us back to evil. It is, I grant you, a fraught and loaded word. It flies in the face of our innate belief in the perfectibility of human beings, suggesting as it does something that is beyond redemption, beyond correction, beyond our power to fix. Better to think in terms of psychological illness because illness, at least, implies an ability to be cured.

I am not saying psychological maladies do not exist or that they cannot help us understand why we do the things we do. What I am saying is that there are some behaviors so monstrous they dwarf our attempts to comprehend them with psychological verities.

Did Adolf Hitler murder 6 million Jews because he had a strained relationship with his father? Would it matter if he did? Yes, Harris and Klebold killed nowhere near as many people as the Fuhrer, but it was not for lack of ambition. While we are conditioned to think of evil as something that comes wearing a Snidely Whiplash moustache or speaking in a Darth Vader voice, it is more often a banal thing hiding in plain sight just like this, hiding in the incremental moral compromises, failed humanity and grandiose self image of ordinary men. Until their fury breaks upon us abruptly as a clap of thunder in a summer storm.

Thus it was with Harris and Klebold. Thus it was with Seung-Hiu Cho after them and Charles Starkweather before. Thus it has been. And will be. Being human requires living with the knowledge that sometimes human beings shatter. And yet, still "living." So I will not begrudge you if you seek the rhyme or reason in what those boys did, but as for me, I will give them not an hour of my one and only life trying to comprehend their incomprehensible deed.

They've taken more than enough already.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/DN-pitts_20edi.State.Edition1.2ca48ec.html

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 09:43:57 am »
It was writing off people and events as evil that allowed the ugliness of the world to go unchecked for centuries.

It was only when we started asking the question, "Why?" that we actually discovered that maybe evil is a myth, maybe there is only hurt and pain, and  maybe something can be done about that.  Perhaps if we keep looking and are clever enough, we may discover no one need ever hurt so badly that they must make the rest of us suffer too.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 04:53:07 pm »
Dave Cullen was on the Rachel Maddow show last night.  I was on the phone with the TV on mute.  When my TV is on mute it automatically goes to closed captioning, but still I missed most of the content. 



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Offline Front-Ranger

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The Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 04:53:55 pm »
It was writing off people and events as evil that allowed the ugliness of the world to go unchecked for centuries.

It was only when we started asking the question, "Why?" that we actually discovered that maybe evil is a myth, maybe there is only hurt and pain, and  maybe something can be done about that.  Perhaps if we keep looking and are clever enough, we may discover no one need ever hurt so badly that they must make the rest of us suffer too.

What you say is profound, friend. I agree with you. However, I believe the time to quell hurt and pain should come early in life, lest it be in vain.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: The Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 05:10:35 pm »
I was on my way to work. It seems like not such a long time ago. If you travel that freeway even today, there are wide stretches of open ground. Unincorporated Jefferson County, they call it. An intensely car-based area where, to get to a Borders bookstore which you can see right in front of you at the corner, you have to make a right turn, go a half mile, make a U turn onto a frontage road, go back a half mile, make a right turn, go a half-mile, turn into a parking lot, go right 500 yards, and then go up and down looking for a parking spot.

The largest buildings are big barnlike Evangelical churches. Two other mega buildings have appeared recently: a Home Depot that stands on a bluff like a fort, and a liquor store that holds classes in winetasting and big networking events on Fridays.

I had no sooner arrived at work when I was called up to my supervisor's office. I was ushered into a conference room with two other coworkers. There was obviously going to be some heavy shit happen and I felt my lungs constrict. The subject at hand was the previous Friday, when a proposal was being prepared to ship out on deadline, there was a heavy spring snowstorm, and I was at home on leave. Since my staff was having trouble with the proposal, I talked with them by phone several times during the day and they faxed me parts of it to work on. Twice I had offered to put chains on my tires and make the trip into the office but my staff had said they had everything under control.

However, my supervisor and coworkers weren't aware of this and assumed I was off skiing or lying on a bear rug eating bon bons and watching soap operas on TV. After I straightened them out, a colleague, meaning to try to make me feel better, said, "All this happened because you were away from your desk. We just can't do without you, Lee." Then, my supervisor made a pronouncement that from now on, whenever there was a deadline, that I was to be at work, no matter what my schedule might be. I emerged from that meeting to learn that during it, there was a crisis at a school only a few miles away from my children's school, and that 13 children were dead.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

injest

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 07:24:21 pm »
It was writing off people and events as evil that allowed the ugliness of the world to go unchecked for centuries.

It was only when we started asking the question, "Why?" that we actually discovered that maybe evil is a myth, maybe there is only hurt and pain, and  maybe something can be done about that.  Perhaps if we keep looking and are clever enough, we may discover no one need ever hurt so badly that they must make the rest of us suffer too


I completely disagree. There are truly evil people in the world that hurt others purely because they want to and will use people asking 'why' to continue causing pain.

Treat if you want to but remove them from the general population. The kids that are not psychotic shouldn't have to suffer at the hands of these people. Society should not have to suffer them. Sending someone like these two to 'anger management' and letting them continue in school as if nothing is wrong harms the other kids.

Do you really think 'understanding' Jeffery Dahmer would have stopped him? would it comfort his victims? what about Manson? does 'understanding him' make him safer? would you have him living in your apartment building? would you have him teaching at a school? I mean if he is just 'sick' and needs a little love and understanding why not?

it is all well and good to be all bleeding heart. Seems a shame we are willing to sacrifice hundreds of kids so a handful of EVIL people can be 'understood'

what have we learned from Colombine? and would the parents of the kids that died be willing to have the lessons NOT be learned and have their kids back alive? if these boys had been put in "reform school" like they used to put people like this (back in the bad ol days) those kids would still be alive.

I don't' think the lessons and the 'learning why' were worth it.

but that's just my opinion. I am sure others think that protecting psychos are much more important

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 07:44:43 pm »
 Understanding does not absolve responsibility, it does not make the dangerous less so, it does not mean that they should not be isolated from the rest of society, but it is the first step in helping them to have meaningful lives for themselves, if that is what they want.  There was a time when rapists were not treatable, where pedophiles were not treatable.  That is no longer true, if they wish to change their lives, many can.

That wouldn't be true if we simply kept writing them off as evil.

I'd like to see your proof that there is evil in the world, but I'd rather hope that we will continue to increase the number of people that can have rewarding lives like everybody else.

If you want to see the world as an ugly hopeless place, that is your choice.

Offline Monika

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 07:55:53 pm »
Understanding does not absolve responsibility, it does not make the dangerous less so, it does not mean that they should not be isolated from the rest of society, but it is the first step in helping them to have meaningful lives for themselves, if that is what they want.  There was a time when rapists were not treatable, where pedophiles were not treatable.  That is no longer true, if they wish to change their lives, many can.

That wouldn't be true if we simply kept writing them off as evil.

I'd like to see your proof that there is evil in the world, but I'd rather hope that we will continue to increase the number of people that can have rewarding lives like everybody else.

If you want to see the world as an ugly hopeless place, that is your choice.

I agree. To use the word evil when it comes to human beings is way too easy. Much easier than dealing with complex, difficult issues for example.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 08:06:49 pm »
Understanding does not absolve responsibility, it does not make the dangerous less so, it does not mean that they should not be isolated from the rest of society, but it is the first step in helping them to have meaningful lives for themselves, if that is what they want.  There was a time when rapists were not treatable, where pedophiles were not treatable.  That is no longer true, if they wish to change their lives, many can.

That wouldn't be true if we simply kept writing them off as evil.

I'd like to see your proof that there is evil in the world, but I'd rather hope that we will continue to increase the number of people that can have rewarding lives like everybody else.

If you want to see the world as an ugly hopeless place, that is your choice.


really? pedophilia is treatable? prove it. Everything I have ever read said it wasnt'.

and what do you do when people DON"T want to live happy productive lives?

I will continue living my life, if you choose to believe that the whole world is wonderful and the guy that buried a little girl alive was just a misunderstood man in pain...and if you could just wrap your arms around him for a minute, he'd never hurt anyone ever again...

 ::)


injest

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 08:08:27 pm »
I agree. To use the word evil when it comes to human beings is way too easy. Much easier than dealing with complex, difficult issues for example.

no, blaming yourself is easier. It is called codependency. you think that if you would just try a little harder everyone would be nice.

it is harder to be a grownup. to require people take responsibility for their OWN actions.


Offline Monika

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 08:10:40 pm »
I agree. To use the word evil when it comes to human beings is way too easy. Much easier than dealing with complex, difficult issues for example.

no, blaming yourself is easier. It is called codependency. you think that if you would just try a little harder everyone would be nice.

it is harder to be a grownup. to require people take responsibility for their OWN actions.


Over simplifying things is to be "grown-up"? Well, not in my book. Sorry.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 08:14:00 pm »
http://www.gwu.edu/~ccps/etzioni/B388.html

http://acon.bravehost.com/pedophilia.html

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/37/1/129.pdf

there are literally thousands of websites and organizations that state that pedophilia is not curable. regardless of what the anti age limit people say.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 08:14:54 pm »
Over simplifying things is to be "grown-up"? Well, not in my book. Sorry.

good I am glad we agree. Blaming yourself for other peoples misbehaviour is simplistic.


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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 08:29:38 pm »
If you see trying to understand a problem, rather than dismissing it as "evil", as "blaming yourself", that´s your problem and not mine.

If you cant' see that treating people as if you are in control of them is condescending and robs them of any chance of fulfilling their own potential, that's YOUR problem..and unfortunately we ALL have to live with the results.

Offline Monika

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 08:32:27 pm »
If you see trying to understand a problem, rather than dismissing it as "evil", as "blaming yourself", that´s your problem and not mine.

If you cant' see that treating people as if you are in control of them is condescending and robs them of any chance of fulfilling their own potential, that's YOUR problem..and unfortunately we ALL have to live with the results.


Whut? I can´t answer that argument because I haven´t written any of the things you are arguing against. O0

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 08:48:51 pm »
Whut? I can´t answer that argument because I haven´t written any of the things you are arguing against.

I know...it is a startling thing isn't it? for someone to call a spade a spade. YOUR theory that if ONLY we tried to understand better then people wouldn't be mean!

I know it is hard..but think about this for a minute...if that were true..then wouldn't it be OUR fault they acted bad? we shoulda been more understanding.

we could change 'victim' counseling...start in 'domestic abuse' clinics...tell the women if they would be more understanding those nice misunderstood men wouldnt hit them. It's not the MEN'S fault. They are helpless before society's cruel refusal to see their pain...


Offline Monika

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 09:07:09 pm »
Whut? I can´t answer that argument because I haven´t written any of the things you are arguing against.

I know...it is a startling thing isn't it? for someone to call a spade a spade. YOUR theory that if ONLY we tried to understand better then people wouldn't be mean!

I know it is hard..but think about this for a minute...if that were true..then wouldn't it be OUR fault they acted bad? we shoulda been more understanding.

we could change 'victim' counseling...start in 'domestic abuse' clinics...tell the women if they would be more understanding those nice misunderstood men wouldnt hit them. It's not the MEN'S fault. They are helpless before society's cruel refusal to see their pain...




The point in trying to understand is that it will help us to prevent similar things from happening again. You don´t fix a problem by standing around, pointing at it and calling it bad or evil. You fix it by looking closer, trying to understand what triggered it.
What would make the world better is if we could prevent certain things from happening at all, not just too stand around the victim afterwards and point at the culprit and shout "evil". By that time the damage has already been done.

Pointing at people and calling them "evil" doesn´t help with anything. I believe in the justice system though, but that has nothing to do with pointing out people as being good or evil. IMO, the justice system should be abovet that kind of religious mumbo jumbo.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 09:22:22 pm »
The point in trying to understand is that it will help us to prevent similar things from happening again. You don´t fix a problem by standing around, pointing at it and calling it bad or evil. You fix it by looking closer, trying to understand what triggered it.
What would make the world better is if we could prevent certain things from happening at all, not just too stand around the victim afterwards and point at the culprit and shout "evil". By that time the damage has already been done.

Pointing at people and calling them "evil" doesn´t help with anything. I believe in the justice system though, but that has nothing to do with pointing out people as being good or evil. IMO, the justice system should be abovet that kind of religious mumbo jumbo.


no, evil is NOT religious...and you dont' 'just stand around'...that is YOUR position...stand around and stare at your navel "what have I done to make this person attack that person"

My position is to say "this person is bad, he needs to be removed from society so he won't hurt people that are just trying to live their lives"

this whole 'there is no good or bad' mess is why we are in the state we are in. It is YOUR philosophy that allowed those boys to kill those 13. MY philosophy would have had those EVIL boys in lockup where they couldn't hurt anyone but themselves. They should have been locked up and treated there...not left free to ravage other childrens lives.

Offline Monika

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 09:33:33 pm »

this whole 'there is no good or bad' mess is why we are in the state we are in. It is YOUR philosophy that allowed those boys to kill those 13. MY philosophy would have had those EVIL boys in lockup where they couldn't hurt anyone but themselves. They should have been locked up and treated there...not left free to ravage other childrens lives.
My philosophy is that if, perhaps, someone would have listened to those boys or paid a little more attention to them, they wouldn't have killed those 13 at all. 


Exactly how could you have known in advance that those two boys would do what they did? Or do you think you alone can decide which people are evil or not before they have actually done the deed?
Through measuring their scull sizes? Or based on what type of noses they have, perhaps?

I think the word "evil" is loaded with religious meaning, and that's why I don't like it.

There are other words I prefer.

I do think the society has a collective responability. That is not the same thing as saying that the individual has none.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 09:42:46 pm »
are you familiar with the situation at all??

they had great parents. they weren't bullied. They had been in trouble before for hurting other people.

their parents DID try to help them. They were in the system.


Offline Monika

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 09:49:12 pm »
are you familiar with the situation at all??

they had great parents. they weren't bullied. They had been in trouble before for hurting other people.

their parents DID try to help them. They were in the system.


Yes, I am familiar with the situation. Obviously something was off. Kids that feel good about themselves don´t go around shooting people.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2009, 09:51:05 pm »
Yes, I am familiar with the situation. Obviously something was off. Kids that feel good about themselves don´t go around shooting people.


YES!! they were EVIL!

bad kids!


Offline Monika

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2009, 09:53:14 pm »
Yes, I am familiar with the situation. Obviously something was off. Kids that feel good about themselves don´t go around shooting people.


YES!! they were EVIL!

bad kids!



yeah yeah  ::)


everyone´s evil. You are evil, I am evil, we are all pure evil. And don´t forget all the movie villains. And chocolate fudge. Evil I tell you!

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2009, 10:00:41 pm »
no, see there you go!! comparing yourself to a mass murderer..you are NOT responsible for what bad people do. I know it gives you some feeling of control but it is a lie. You can't control other people. You need to learn how to take care of yourself so you won't feel so helpless.

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Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2009, 10:29:34 pm »
I am pretty familiar with the situation since I have lived in the same county as Columbine as long as the Columbine killers parents have, and I have raised two children there. It was a "perfect storm" situation where stress, parental neglect, a wasteland Suburbia, video game/tv/internet culture, and gifted minds gone awry came together.

Across the street from my children's school is a maximum security prison. The Unabomber spent time there, and Timothy McVeigh. Both men were probably gifted, like Eric Harris was.

If we "removed all the evil people from society" then there would be nobody left. In the US, we already incarcerate more people than in any other developed nation! I would probably be behind bars, since a person just called me "evil" recently, when I got out my Tarot deck to do a reading.
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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2009, 12:18:19 am »
I am pretty familiar with the situation since I have lived in the same county as Columbine as long as the Columbine killers parents have, and I have raised two children there. It was a "perfect storm" situation where stress, parental neglect, a wasteland Suburbia, video game/tv/internet culture, and gifted minds gone awry came together.

Across the street from my children's school is a maximum security prison. The Unabomber spent time there, and Timothy McVeigh. Both men were probably gifted, like Eric Harris was.

If we "removed all the evil people from society" then there would be nobody left. In the US, we already incarcerate more people than in any other developed nation! I would probably be behind bars, since a person just called me "evil" recently, when I got out my Tarot deck to do a reading.

oh I think there might be one or two people in America that obey laws and dont' hurt people. This kind of leftist socialist thinking is silly. This puts victims in the same group as criminals.

so according to you no one should be in jail at all? The Unabomber should be allowed to continue sending bombs, Manson should be released...

Sharon Tate (being as guilty as Manson) deserved to be cut open like a fish. It is all the same...there is no difference..

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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2009, 12:24:27 am »

so according to you no one should be in jail at all? The Unabomber should be allowed to continue sending bombs, Manson should be released...

Sharon Tate (being as guilty as Manson) deserved to be cut open like a fish. It is all the same...there is no difference..


Did I say this? I'm looking at my post again...I don't see any evidence of me saying this... such an empty, useless argument!
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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2009, 06:33:53 am »
Did I say this? I'm looking at my post again...I don't see any evidence of me saying this... such an empty, useless argument!

YOU said:

If we "removed all the evil people from society" then there would be nobody left. In the US, we already incarcerate more people than in any other developed nation! I would probably be behind bars, since a person just called me "evil" recently, when I got out my Tarot deck to do a reading.

what do you mean by "there would be nobody left"? to me, you are saying we are all equal. That a baby is as guilty of evil as Manson. I dont' see any other option offered here.

Talk about a useless, empty argument. HERE is one.

you are equating using tarot cards with murdering thirteen kids.

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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2009, 07:48:52 am »
I am pretty familiar with the situation since I have lived in the same county as Columbine as long as the Columbine killers parents have, and I have raised two children there. It was a "perfect storm" situation where stress, parental neglect, a wasteland Suburbia, video game/tv/internet culture, and gifted minds gone awry came together.

Across the street from my children's school is a maximum security prison. The Unabomber spent time there, and Timothy McVeigh. Both men were probably gifted, like Eric Harris was.

If we "removed all the evil people from society" then there would be nobody left. In the US, we already incarcerate more people than in any other developed nation! I would probably be behind bars, since a person just called me "evil" recently, when I got out my Tarot deck to do a reading.

I just caught this....seriously? right across the street? down here our prisons are put out a ways from other buildings, usually surrounded by some land....especially maximum security prisons. Do the prisoners taunt the children? If I was a parent there, I would have really protested. What if there is a breakout or a riot? wouldn't the children be at risk?

maybe they thought it would be a deterrent to the kids, having to see prisoners every day... :laugh: :P

Offline Monika

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2009, 08:09:52 am »
no, see there you go!! comparing yourself to a mass murderer..you are NOT responsible for what bad people do. I know it gives you some feeling of control but it is a lie. You can't control other people. You need to learn how to take care of yourself so you won't feel so helpless.

As always you are arguing against yourself and not against anything I´ve said. It´s becoming a bit tedious.

Offline Monika

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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2009, 08:11:14 am »
Did I say this? I'm looking at my post again...I don't see any evidence of me saying this... 
You didn´t, Lee :-*

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2009, 08:37:03 am »
yes she did. she said we all would be in prison if evil people had to be imprisoned. That means she considers ALL evil to be equal and we are all equally guilty.




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2009, 09:28:30 am »
If we "removed all the evil people from society" then there would be nobody left. In the US, we already incarcerate more people than in any other developed nation!

Maybe instead of locking them all up, we should just hang a few of the worst offenders, pour encourager les autres.

Quote
I would probably be behind bars, since a person just called me "evil" recently, when I got out my Tarot deck to do a reading.

 :o  Telling fortunes!?!?! The work of the Devil!!!!  ;D  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2009, 09:42:03 am »
yes she did. she said we all would be in prison if evil people had to be imprisoned. That means she considers ALL evil to be equal and we are all equally guilty.

No, it doesn't mean that. It means that anybody can call anybody else evil and since the definition of evil seems to be in the eye of the beholder (and includes things like Tarot reading) then people would just denounce each other and we would all be in the same boat. Go back to the Salem witch-hunts, it was the same thing.
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Offline mariez

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2009, 01:22:20 pm »
Dave Cullen was on the Rachel Maddow show last night.  I was on the phone with the TV on mute.  When my TV is on mute it automatically goes to closed captioning, but still I missed most of the content. 

Amanda, here's a link to a video of the interview Rachel did with Dave Cullen on her show:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#30316505
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2009, 01:55:13 pm »
People can be isolated from society without calling them evil.  And no one is seriously suggesting simple minded feel good solutions like hugs.

But those that find themselves lost in the dark night of the soul may never find their own way out.  Are we supposed to be so callous that we blind ourselves to their humanity?  So we lock them away and leave them to die alone in their own private hells.  They used to do something similar to AIDS patients in the beginning.   

If you want others treated this way, that's your choice, but remember the admonition about "the least of these"


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2009, 01:58:10 pm »
My own opinion is closer to Jess', in this case. (Yeah, I know, :o.)

I wouldn't call it "evil," with its religious connotations. But from what I've read of or about Dave Cullen's book, the kids were not neglected and the parents were not at fault, and in fact they tried to help. Nor would I blame video games or suburbia, since millions of other kids confront those same factors without becoming mass murderers. It's nice to point the finger at perceived causes like that because it makes it explainable and predictable and avoidable. But apparently, according to Cullen anyway, that's not the case here.

One of the kids, Dylan Klebold, was depressed -- his reasons for doing it are a little cloudier to me -- but the other was a psychopath who constantly fantasized about causing huge destruction that would kill lots of people. That's Eric Harris, the "impressive young man" Cullen refers to below in an interview with Time magazine (the interviewer's questions are in bold):

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1891815,00.html

How difficult was the writing?

I tried to pace out writing the hard chapters. The one about the Klebolds' funeral for [Dylan] was really hard, which I didn't expect. To empathize with a killer is hard. You don't want to go there, but you have to. We've all got good and bad and nasty urges in us.

I spent five months just ingesting Eric. All I did was read his journals, listen to his music, and watch some of the movies he liked. Then I spent 4½ months on Dylan. The Eric part was O.K. It was like inspecting a disease. There's one time in Eric's journal — it's just a line or two — where he talks about turning off his feelings of sympathy. He has some kind of awareness [that what he's doing is wrong]. And that makes it almost a little more diabolical.

In the end I found Dylan far more interesting. Eric started out wanting to become a killer, and became a killer. Dylan started out wanting to commit suicide.

I wonder if you were more interested in Dylan because Eric, as you argue, was a born psychopath, and there wasn't really anyone to blame.

Exactly. I didn't really feel any sense of kinship with Eric. Obviously what Dylan did was wrong, but I could identify with a lot of the things he was going through. I was a teenager too. I remember wallowing in my own self-pity.

One thing I just couldn't wrap my head around was the process by which Dylan went from a depressed kid to one capable of committing mass murder.


I don't know if there's ever any final understanding of that. He didn't ever actually explain to us why he did this.

Why did the killers keep jumping through hoops — working their jobs, writing papers, going to the prom — right up until the attack? It makes the attack seem more like a performance than an angry act.

Definitely. This is what terrorism is: violence as theater. 9/11 was a performance, a show for America to make us quake. This was a performance for Eric in particular.

You clearly have sympathy for the Klebolds. What about toward the Harrises?


I could see from what Eric wrote about them that they seem very clearly to be good parents. After [Eric and Dylan were arrested in January 1998 for breaking into a van] Wayne Harris' journal was rife with activity. He didn't just send Eric to a shrink. He called a whole bunch of them himself. He was trying to do things right.


So where did they go wrong?


I don't know that they did. If someone had told them their kid was a psychopath, they could have done things differently. But how could they ever have known that?

Eric fooled everybody. I just did a reading where someone said she'd worked closely with Eric and had a distinct memory of him being such an impressive young man: polite, charming, deferential to adults. Just like what you wish all the little high school brats were like. She said all the teachers were fooled. When you have someone growing up to be a professional con artist, it's pretty hard for the Harrises to see through that. Parents of psychopaths never figure it out.

And the Klebolds? Why didn't they realize Dylan was so depressed, for starters?

I asked psychiatrists about that. They said, "Oh, you've got a morose 16-year-old boy. Welcome to America." The parents just thought he was going through adolescence, and high school was hard. They knew he was depressed; they just didn't realize how severely. Dylan's dad was close with his son. He knew he had a troubled kid. But Dylan was painfully shy from when he was a little boy. You don't see this coming.

A lot of myths sprang up immediately after Columbine. Why were we so quick to jump on pat narratives?


The problem with Columbine was we felt the need to explain it right away. It was so horrifying, and the public wanted to know why it happened. We in the media wanted to know why too, and we thought we had to answer them. What we should have said was, "We don't have any good information, and it would be irresponsible of us to say why." When you speculate in a case like this, it very quickly morphs into "fact." We started with the assumption that school shooters tend to be loners, outcasts and bullied. That turned out to be a myth: some are bullied, but not even 50%. The majority are not any of those things.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 04:30:38 pm by serious crayons »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2009, 02:19:47 pm »
Quote
"Eric fooled everybody."

Tell you what, maybe I just watch too much TV, but that sure sounds like the definition of a psychopath.  :-\

I guess it's true that nobody wants to believe any child is born bad--a "bad seed," if you will--but if ever there was one, it seems like it was Eric Harris.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2009, 06:48:16 pm »
No, it doesn't mean that. It means that anybody can call anybody else evil and since the definition of evil seems to be in the eye of the beholder (and includes things like Tarot reading) then people would just denounce each other and we would all be in the same boat. Go back to the Salem witch-hunts, it was the same thing.

I am sorry I spoke (posted) so harshly before, Lee, I think we just disagree but I should not have been so rough. Please accept my apology, it has been weighing on my mind today.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2009, 07:00:15 pm »
No problem, Jess. I got your PM too. You can PM me directly, you know.
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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2009, 07:04:53 pm »
No problem, Jess. I got your PM too. You can PM me directly, you know.

I can't access the site from work or I would have. I didn't want to wait til I could, I don't like to wait on stuff like that. I was wrong.

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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2009, 07:26:58 pm »
I just caught this....seriously? right across the street? down here our prisons are put out a ways from other buildings, usually surrounded by some land....especially maximum security prisons. Do the prisoners taunt the children? If I was a parent there, I would have really protested. What if there is a breakout or a riot? wouldn't the children be at risk?

maybe they thought it would be a deterrent to the kids, having to see prisoners every day... :laugh: :P

Yes, it's right across the street, in view of the school. Keep in mind though that this is in unincorporated Jefferson County, a few miles away from Columbine High School. That county is kind of strange because there's no urban planning whatsoever. Also, there must be a mile or two of bare ground and street between the school and the prison. Then, there is a heavy wire fence with rolls and rolls of shiny barbed wire on top of it. You never see prisoners. There is a stockade with guard towers in one section of the prison, and I think the prisoners get their sunlight there. Quite a few of the prisoners are in solitary confinement.
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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2009, 07:31:35 pm »
Yes, it's right across the street, in view of the school. Keep in mind though that this is in unincorporated Jefferson County, a few miles away from Columbine High School. That county is kind of strange because there's no urban planning whatsoever. Also, there must be a mile or two of bare ground and street between the school and the prison. Then, there is a heavy wire fence with rolls and rolls of shiny barbed wire on top of it. You never see prisoners. There is a stockade with guard towers in one section of the prison, and I think the prisoners get their sunlight there. Quite a few of the prisoners are in solitary confinement.

still. That kinda creeps me out... :P

Offline MountainMan

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2009, 07:36:29 pm »
Title:WHY? MAYBE IT'S A BLESSING NOT TO KNOW.(VIEWPOINTS).
Author(s):Leonard Pitts.
April 27, 1999

Byline: LEONARD PITTS - Miami Herald

Why?

It is the most urgent question of the moment, the only one that seems to matter as we stand gasping in the silence of aftermath.

Seems we've been asking it a lot lately. Asked it after shootings at schools in Pearl, Miss., and West Paducah, Ky. After Jonesboro, Ark.; Edinboro, Pa., and Springfield, Ore. Now we ask it after Littleton, Colo., the site of the worst school shooting in American history. Littleton, henceforth to be recalled as the place a nightmare was born and innocence -- the notion that there's a safe place beyond the reach of terror -- was once again killed. Along with 15 human beings.

Why? Ph.Ds and heads of impressive-sounding institutions confront the question on TV news forums. The rest of us meet at the water cooler or the dinner table. And all of us promulgate answers. This one says the tragedy happened because we took prayer out of the schools. The other one argues that the lesson is that parents are too removed from the lives of their children. This one over here blames the gun culture. The one over there condemns the media's almost pornographic obsession with violence.

All of it explains. None of it truly answers the question that burns like fire and haunts like spirits: Why?

Why did Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold take explosives and guns onto the campus of Columbine High last Tuesday? Why did they shoot at least 29 people? And, for God's sake, why did they laugh and joke as they did it?

"How many did you get?" one asked the other. Like it was a video game and they were comparing scores.

Why? By now, the question is reflex, but no less important for that. This is how we cope with wrenching pain. We ponder why, make an earnest effort to figure out what went wrong, what needs improving, what bill can be passed or policy implemented. The thinking seems to be that if we can just find The Lesson we were meant to learn, then we might just wrench something good from this awful thing.

And I'm trying, I really am.

I've combed through what's been revealed about the lives of these two individuals, but the information is frustrating and fragmentary. We know they had a penchant for violent video games. That they bore a grudge against blacks, Hispanics and jocks. That they were fascinated by grim, Gothic themes. That they banded together in a community of outsiders, the so-called Trench Coat Mafia. That they got bullied a lot.

You pick gingerly through those meager clues, thinking that if you're just smart enough and careful enough, the answer to "Why?" will jump out at you. But the profile we are offered of Harris and Klebold is one that could fit many lonely, disaffected kids. The rest of them will grow up and get on with life. Harris and Klebold took life instead -- killed others with joy and saved their last bullets for themselves.

Why? The urge to slap a label upon this horror, to box it up and store it away, is strong.

But ultimately, what happened in Littleton is larger and more monstrous than easy answers allow for. In the meticulousness of the planning, in the viciousness of the attack, in the giddy "gladness" with which the mission was carried out, it seems to mock our attempts to understand.

Indeed, it strikes me that to lay this obscenity off to some mitigating factor, no matter how worthy, is to make the crime smaller than it is and offer rationalizations that insult the sufferers.

Meaning that I don't care what video games these wretches played. Don't give a damn if they were picked on by other kids. It makes no difference.

This was a special category of evil. It was a singular wickedness, a distinctive depravity. And it reinforces in me a belief that some human spirits are simply, inherently, defective, diseased and vile.

Why? I don't know. Maybe I can't. Maybe that's a blessing.

Source Citation:Pitts, Leonard. "WHY? MAYBE IT'S A BLESSING NOT TO KNOW." The Buffalo News (Buffalo, NY) (April 27, 1999)

Offline MountainMan

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2009, 07:41:54 pm »
"why?"

they are evil = I don't know and don't care

...is how pitts comes across

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2009, 07:48:30 pm »
"why?"

they are evil = I don't know and don't care

no, for me, it doesnt' matter why they did it. there is NO excuse for that.

Offline MountainMan

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2009, 07:49:28 pm »
maybe if we knew why we could avoid similar situations

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2009, 07:58:03 pm »
maybe if we knew why we could avoid similar situations

hmm..that's fine if the authorities want to investigate the reasons..but that is what it should be "REASONS" not excuses....'blaming' something or someone else is unacceptable to me; a person is responsible for their own actions...if they feel their actions are justified they have to accept the consequences.


Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2009, 08:05:06 pm »
hmm..that's fine if the authorities want to investigate the reasons..but that is what it should be "REASONS" not excuses....'blaming' something or someone else is unacceptable to me; a person is responsible for their own actions...if they feel their actions are justified they have to accept the consequences.



Who has been blaming anybody?  Who has been looking for excuses? 

The point of finding reasons is possible future prevention.   

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2009, 08:05:39 pm »
Explanations and excuses are two different things. Finding explanations could lead to methods of prevention. The point isn't to let the perpetrators off the hook.

Clyde, your post appeared while I was writing.


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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2009, 08:26:07 pm »
A book I have read most of has explained a lot of things for me lately, and caused some of my suspicions to be confirmed, not about Columbine, but about life in general. The book is called Bowling Alone, by Robert Putnam. Here is a quote from it:

Quote
American adults average 72 minutes every day behind the wheel....This is, according to time diary studies, more than we spend cooking or eating and more than twice as much as the average parent spends with the kids."
Commuting is the symptom and the disease is sprawl. Sprawl is the very definition of unincorporated Jefferson County. Sprawl is only one of several important elements that are destroying American community, according to Putnam. The sense of community is called "Social Capital" in the book and, when it is missing, it can lead to not seeing other people as human beings, among other things. Again, this is a reason, not an excuse. If anyone is interested, I'll tell you more about the book and its findings. It has 541 pages full of analysis, charts, the works!
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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2009, 08:31:33 pm »
A book I have read most of has explained a lot of things for me lately, and caused some of my suspicions to be confirmed, not about Columbine, but about life in general. The book is called Bowling Alone, by Robert Putnam. Here is a quote from it:
Commuting is the symptom and the disease is sprawl. Sprawl is the very definition of unincorporated Jefferson County. Sprawl is only one of several important elements that are destroying American community, according to Putnam. The sense of community is called "Social Capital" in the book and, when it is missing, it can lead to not seeing other people as human beings, among other things. Again, this is a reason, not an excuse. If anyone is interested, I'll tell you more about the book and its findings. It has 541 pages full of analysis, charts, the works!

there have been people here in this area talking about breaking up schools and making small neighborhood schools like back at the turn of the twentieth century. I am not so sure that is such a crazy idea. I think it would get parents and the community involved I think..

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2009, 08:46:39 pm »
there have been people here in this area talking about breaking up schools and making small neighborhood schools like back at the turn of the twentieth century. I am not so sure that is such a crazy idea. I think it would get parents and the community involved I think..

That structure has some advantages, as you say, for communities. Unfortunately, economy isn't one of them. Schools these days tend to be going the other direction -- merging smaller districts into bigger ones -- because they're cheaper to run that way.

Tom Brokaw just wrote something urging small municipalities to merge operations to save money. He points out that the tradition of having lots of small towns, villages, townships, etc., dates back to the days when travel was slow.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/opinion/20brokaw.html?sq=tom%20brokaw&st=cse&scp=2&pagewanted=print

The New York Times

April 20, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
Small-Town Big Spending
By TOM BROKAW


DURING these uncertain times we’ve yet to hear a phrase with the resonance of Franklin Roosevelt’s “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself,” but there are a couple of minor-chord expressions that should have staying power.

One is the observation of Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff, that “you never want a serious crisis to go to waste.” Another comes from my boss, Jeff Immelt, the chief executive of General Electric, who has warned, “This is not a cycle; it’s a reset.”

Taken together, these remarks challenge us to go beyond trying to quickly fix the immediate problems of toxic mortgages, risky banks, a struggling American car industry and escalating health care costs. If the American people are tuned into the need to change the irresponsible, inefficient practices and systems that created those problems, why not enlist them to take the next step and radically change the antiquated public structures that exist beyond the Beltway?

Here are a few examples. It’s estimated that New York State has about 10,500 local government entities, from townships to counties to special districts. A year ago a bipartisan state commission said that New Yorkers could save more than a billion dollars a year by consolidating and sharing local government responsibilities like public security, health, roads and education.

One commission member, a county executive, said, “Our system of local government has barely evolved over the past one hundred years and we are still governed by these same archaic institutions formed before the invention of the light bulb, telephone, automobile and computer.”

In accepting the commission’s recommendations, Gov. David Paterson promised to work diligently to put the changes into effect. When his budget was presented this spring it included several of the proposed changes, but it immediately met stiff resistance even from members of his own party who were determined to protect their parochial interests. It appears that few of the original recommendations will survive.

In my native Great Plains, North and South Dakota have a combined population of just under 1.5 million people, and in each state the rural areas are being depopulated at a rapid rate. Yet between them the two Dakotas support 17 colleges and universities. They are a carry-over from the early 20th century when travel was more difficult and farm families wanted their children close by during harvest season.

I know this is heresy, but couldn’t the two states get a bigger bang for their higher education buck if they consolidated their smaller institutions into, say, the Dakota Territory College System, with satellite campuses but a common administration and shared standards?

Iowa, next door, is having its own struggles with maintaining population, especially among the young. As the Hawkeye State’s taxpayers grow older and less financially productive, the cost of government services becomes more expensive.

Yet Iowa proudly maintains its grid of 99 counties, each with its own distinctive courthouse, many on the National Register of Historic Places — and some as little as 40 miles away from one another. Each one houses a full complement of clerks, auditors, sheriff’s deputies, jailers and commissioners. Is there any reason beyond local pride to maintain such duplication given the economic and population pressures of our time?

This is not a problem unique to the states I have cited. Every state and every region in the country is stuck with some form of anachronistic and expensive local government structure that dates to horse-drawn wagons, family farms and small-town convenience.

If this is a reset, it’s time to reorganize our state and local government structures for today’s realities rather than cling to the sensibilities of the 20th century.

If we demand this from General Motors, we should ask no less of ourselves.

Tom Brokaw, a special correspondent for NBC News, is the author, most recently, of “Boom! Talking About the ’60s.”




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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2009, 08:50:48 pm »
That's an interesting idea, Jess. The high schools in Jefferson County are big megaliths with hundreds and hundreds of students.

Here's one of the many things Putnam says about schools:

Quote
First, where civic engagement in community affairs in general is high, teachers report higher levels of parental support and lower levels of student misbehavior, such as bringing weapons to school, engaging in physical violence...

.
Quote
..among all these factors the strongest predictors of student violence across the states are two-parent families and community-based social capital, dwarfing the importance of such social conditions as poverty, urbanism, or levels of parental education.
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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2009, 08:55:40 pm »
That's an interesting idea, Jess. The high schools in Jefferson County are big megaliths with hundreds and hundreds of students.

Here's one of the many things Putnam says about schools:

.

I think that Hillary got a lot of flack for that phrase "It takes a village" but I think it is true. When people in the community were invested in schools the schools were better..the kids were better behaved. There were a hundred eyes watching, instead of two or four...

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2009, 09:06:22 pm »
I agree with you, Jess. And I wonder if Cullen, a single guy, caught some of these crucial concepts in his book. I'm definitely going to read it before I pass judgment though.

Now, here's what Putnam says about teen suicide, which is definitely applicable to Columbine:

Quote
As yet, this remarkable, well-established and disturbing trend toward suicide, depression, and malaise among America's younger generations has no widely accepted interpretation. One plausible explanation, however, is social isolation. Educational sociologists...recently reported that 'the average American teenager typically spends approximately three and a half hours alone each day...Adolescents spend more time alone than with family or friends.'

It used to be that older people were more likely to commit suicide. But the tables are turned. Now, younger people are three to four times more likely to commit suicide than similarly aged people in the 1950s. And indices of depression and malaise (sleeplessness, headaches, indigestion) have grown as well.
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Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2009, 09:55:55 am »
I'd like to pass along just a little more information about the role of technology and mass media before leaving the topic of Columbine. I am quoting from Bowling Alone, by Robert Putnam, on the destruction of community in places like unincorporated Jefferson County of Colorado, where the massacre took place 10 years ago.

Consider this:

Quote
In 1950 barely 10 percent of American homes had television sets, but by 1959, 90 percent did, probably the fastest diffusion of a technological innovation ever recorded. . . .The reverberations from this lightning bolt continued unabated for decades, as per capita viewing hours grew....By 1995 viewing per TV household was more than 50 percent higher than it had been in the 1950s.

Not news to anyone, but here's more:

Quote
...by the late 1990s three-quarters of all US homes had more than one set, allowing ever more private viewing.. . . sixth-graders with a TV set in their bedroom grew...to 77 percent in 1999. . . . Among children 8-18 the figures are even more startling: less than 5 percent of their TV-watching is done with their parents, and more than one-third is done entirely alone.

Putnam then explains that more people are "habitual TV watchers" as opposed to "selective TV watchers," with the TV on constantly or whenever they're home. Such habitual watchers, who are more and more likely to be young, watch "whatever is on" and channel surf.

Quote
...scholars have found that compared with teenagers in the 1950s, young people in the 1990s have fewer, weaker, and more fluid friendships. Although I know no systematic evidence that supports this hunch, I suspect that the link between channel surfing and social surfing is more than metaphorical.

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2009, 06:33:36 pm »
Any book reviews yet?
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Re: Dave Cullen's new book
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2009, 07:09:56 pm »
Lots. Time, Newsweek, etc. They've been excellent. For example, here is the one from the NY Times Book Review:

April 19, 2009
The End of the Trench Coat Mafia
By JENNIFER SENIOR

COLUMBINE

By Dave Cullen


417 pp. Twelve. $26.99

Had Dave Cullen capitulated to cliché while writing “Columbine,” he would have started his tale 48 hours before Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold’s notorious killing spree, stopped the frame just before they fired their guns, and then spooled back to the very beginning, with the promise of trying to explain how the two boys got to this twisted pass. But he doesn’t. As Cullen eventually writes, “there had been no trigger” — at least none that would be satisfying to horrified outsiders, grieving parents or anyone in between. Eric Harris was a psychopath, simple as that. Dylan Klebold was a suicidally depressed kid who yoked his fate to a sadist. Instead, what intrigues the author are perceptions and misperceptions: how difficult a shooting spree is to untangle; how readily mass tragedies lend themselves to misinformation and mythologizing; how psychopaths can excel at the big con.

The broad outlines of what happened at Columbine High School in Colorado one decade ago are well known. On April 20, 1999, just weeks from graduation, Harris and Klebold murdered one teacher and 12 of their peers, making this the most lethal high school massacre in the nation, and wounded two dozen. Then they holed up in the school library and turned their guns on themselves.

Yet what’s amazing is how much of Cullen’s book still comes as a surprise. I expected a story about misfits exacting vengeance, because that was my memory of the media consensus — Columbine, right, wasn’t there something going on there between goths and jocks? In fact, Harris and Klebold were killing completely at random that day. Their victims weren’t the intended targets at all; the entire school was. Columbine, it turns out, was a failed attempt at domestic terrorism. Shortly after 11:14 a.m., the two boys hauled a propane bomb into the cafeteria, programmed to go off at 11:17. It never did. Had the massacre gone as planned, it would most likely have killed more than 500 people, yielding far less readily to rumors about high school’s tribal politics.

It’s to his credit that Cullen, a Denver journalist who covered the story for Salon and Slate, makes the reader care about getting it right. “Columbine” is an excellent work of media criticism, showing how legends become truths through continual citation; a sensitive guide to the patterns of public grief, foreshadowing many of the same reactions to Sept. 11 (lawsuits, arguments about the memorial, voyeuristic bus tours); and, at the end of the day, a fine example of old-fashioned journalism. While Cullen’s storytelling doesn’t approach the novelistic beauty of “In Cold Blood” (an unfair standard, perhaps, but an unavoidable comparison for a murder story this detailed), he writes well enough, moving things along with agility and grace. He leaves us with some unforgettable images — like the pizza slices floating aimlessly about the school commons, which was flooded with three inches of water because the sprinkler system had gone off — and he has a knack for the thumbnail sketch. “He was a shrink turned hostage negotiator turned detective, with an abridged version of the complete works of Shakespeare in the back seat of his car,” Cullen writes of Dwayne Fuselier, an F.B.I. agent and one of the book’s heroes. “He could be a little stoic. Hugging his sons felt awkward but he would reach out to embrace survivors when they needed it.”

Fuselier is one of the people Cullen spotlights in his retelling in order to clear up the historical record. Some of the confusion generated by Columbine was inevitable: Harris and Klebold started out wearing trench coats, for instance, but at some point removed them, giving the illusion that they were four people rather than two. The homemade pipe bombs they were tossing in all directions — down stairwells, onto the roof — only seemed to further the impression that there were more of them. And then there were the SWAT teams: students trapped inside the building would hear their rifle fire, assume it was the killers and report it to the media by cellphone, complicating the cops’ efforts to keep them safe. “This was the first major hostage standoff of the cellphone age,” Cullen notes. The police “had never seen anything like it.”

But the most subtle distortions of the media echo chamber, it seems, did not concern logistics. They concerned motive. As early as two hours into the live coverage of Columbine, news stations began to report that something called the Trench Coat Mafia, a group of disgruntled goths, was possibly behind the attack. Many of the students, watching this coverage on classroom televisions while still trapped inside the building, began to repeat this information to reporters on the outside once they’d escaped. (And it made sense: the killers were wearing trench coats.) And so a loop began, reinforced by four eyewitnesses who said the gunmen were deliberately targeting their victims. One offered such a precise level of detail — the killers were taking aim at “anyone of color, wearing a white hat or playing a sport” — that it proved irresistible, both to students and to members of the media, who (Cullen speculates) were out of their element in this teenage universe, and therefore willing to repeat this rumor whether their “witnesses” had seen the gunmen or not. “Reporters,” the author points out, “would not make that mistake at a car wreck.”

Of course, tragedies often lend themselves to myths, so as to meet the needs of the day. For weeks after Sept. 11, the lovely legend persisted that the Rev. Mychal Judge, a New York Fire Department chaplain, died from falling debris when he took off his helmet to give last rites to a firefighter. As I wrote sometime later in New York magazine, that’s not how he died. But people had a stake in that belief. And Columbine generated a similar tale of spiritual martyrdom. A boy who witnessed the murders in the school library told people afterward that a slain student, a fellow evangelical named Cas­sie Bernall, was asked by one of the killers if she believed in God. “Yes, I believe in God,” he said she replied. Two other witnesses, both sitting near Cassie, heard no such thing, and Cullen goes on to say that a 911 tape from that day “proved conclusively” that she hadn’t uttered these words. It didn’t matter. The story caught the imagination of the evangelical world, and Cassie’s mother, Misty Bernall, wrote a book, “She Said Yes,” that has since sold more than one million ­copies.

“Columbine” is weakest when Cullen tries to channel the voice of Eric Harris. (“Five or six hundred dismemberments ought to be enough for one awesome afternoon of TV” is one such example.) As the author himself makes clear, Harris’s mind isn’t a particularly interesting place to inhabit — just sneering and young and unfathomably angry. But his nuanced dissection of the differences between Harris and Klebold is first-rate, leaving readers in the strange (and challenging) position of feeling pity, almost, for Klebold. Cullen walks us carefully through the definition of psychopathy, and how it differs from insanity, noting how perfectly Harris met the profile — particularly in his egomania, outsize contempt for humanity and talent for manipulation. (Just months before the attack, a teacher wrote on one of his essays, “I would trust you in a heartbeat.”) Whereas Klebold, for most of the book, seems forlorn, awkward and miserable. “The anger and the loathing,” Cullen explains, “traveled inward.”

In case you’re wondering, we don’t get the granular details of Harris and Klebold’s last 48 hours until the end of the book, when we know so much more it’s almost beside the point. Which isn’t to say some of the testimony still isn’t chilling. That Sunday, in a homemade videotape, Harris addressed his parents. “They could not have stopped him, Eric assured them,” Cullen writes. “He quoted Shakespeare: ‘Good wombs have borne bad sons.’ ”

Jennifer Senior is a contributing editor at New York magazine.



 

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book
« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2009, 02:13:04 pm »
Lots. Time, Newsweek, etc. They've been excellent. For example, here is the one from the NY Times Book Review:

April 19, 2009
The End of the Trench Coat Mafia
By JENNIFER SENIOR



Is that film Alma Junior's sister Jenny?

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2010, 03:54:08 am »
Really from tonight's Jeopardy:


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2010, 08:13:31 am »
Really from tonight's Jeopardy:



It's not showing up, Elle.