Author Topic: Don't Never Order Soup...  (Read 10894 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Don't Never Order Soup...
« on: July 16, 2006, 06:58:55 pm »
Them soup boxes is hard to pack.

Well, I'm not saying never bring certain things up, but just be careful if you do. Take it from a Front-Ranger who's been in plenty of hot water in the past.

First of all, Alma and Lureen are really wonderful, wise women who just want the best for their men, always. Also, Cassie and LaShawn are the finest examples of femininity that you would ever want to come across. Mrs. Twist is always spoken about in reverent tones. She is the madonna. I'm sure Ennis's mom was a swell woman too...she sang to him. You can say any old vile thing about John Twist, L.D. Newsome, the bikers, or pretty much any guy in the movie except of course Jack and Ennis. Even Monroe.

The story, as written by Annie Proulx, is thought of as the gospel by a big chunk of the bean board, whereas there are others who don't think much of the story, but regard the movie as the last word. Be careful not to get caught in the crossfire.

Jake and Heath are the ideal models of male virility and beauty. Don't malign either one, though you can drool as much as you like over one or the other. Oh, they're intelligent and talented too, don't forget.

Jack is wind and air, and maybe water. Unless Alma's water. And Ennis is earth, that much we know. And maybe fire. Unless Lureen is fire. Lureen is red and white, and white stands for death, or purity. But red is death, or perhaps it is passion, or prosperity. But dark red is something else, and blood is red, so red must stand for death. But then what is white? Let's just go on to purple. Purple is blue and red, so it stands for Jack's death. And brown stands for Ennis, also yellow. But yellow and blue make green, so green stands for Ennis and Jack. And orange is Ennis, so the stained glass window in the church stands for Ennis and Ennis+Jack. 'nuff said.

Jack was always a bottom and Ennis was always a top. Never doubt this!

Just trying to help out here.

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2006, 09:26:24 pm »
The "bean board"?

 ???
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2006, 01:17:52 am »
Lee's tongue is in her cheek, methinks.  At least mostly (methinks).

I'm just glad you didn't list Jimbo on the list of men to revile.  Most people don't like him, it seems, but I think he's just a scared victim of homophobia too.

And colorwise - I think that purple is Jack (blue) + Lureen (red), hence the purple chairs at Thanksgiving, after Jack has deepened his commitment to his Texas life after the post-divorce scene.

And frankly, after reading all these color-meaning threads, today in a restaurant with a variety of cloth napkin colors, I was like, "There's a Jack napkin, there's a false Alma napkin, there's a Ennis+Jack napkin, etc."  If every color means something in BBM symbology, we can be reminded of them all dang day, all dang where.


Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2006, 05:01:57 pm »
;D ;D ;D

I was out of town and missed this. I'd been thinking about a "symbols that can be read more than one way" thread, but I think I'll just read this one and laugh.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 05:07:43 pm »
Enjoy, Mel. And be glad U were out of town! Oh, I have something to add. Even though he never made it to his sophomore year, Ennis is very bright for his age, and a very good reader. You'll notice he completed a post card with "You bet" written very clearly and with no spelling errors, unlike Jack, who said "Say if your there." (But I'm sure Jack is very bright too.) And while we're at it, Lureen, a Tri Delt, was very eloquent and well spoken when she said, "Husbands don't never like to dance with their wives."
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2006, 06:13:31 pm »
On the other hand, Jack is a sheep, and Jake says that sheep are stupid. (Or something like that. Ummm, I have only watched the extras once.)

(It was looking like it might be bad on the highway with the horse trailer, back before I went on vacation. So I left the horse trailer behind. Besides, it wouldn't fit well on an airplane. Oh, and it looks like you had a birthday while I was on net vacation, so happy belated birthday, Lee!)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2006, 06:36:18 pm »
I'd been thinking about a "symbols that can be read more than one way" thread, but I think I'll just read this one and laugh.

I'll do the same!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I had a similar idea, Mel. I've always thought it would be fun to have a thread where someone throws a thing out there -- red, water, sheep, whiskey -- and everybody else has to come up with as many symbolic meanings for it as possible. You'd supply a reason for your answer, and all answers would count as equally valid.

For example, for DANCING, answers could include "loneliness" (because Ennis and Jack feel lonely when they're dancing with Lureen and Cassie), "phony heterosexuality" (because their dancing partners -- Lureen, Cassie, LaShawn -- substitute for the men they are actually interested in) or plain old "sex" (because husbands never wanna dance with their wives, leaving LaShawn and Lureen to dance with themselves).


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2006, 07:01:44 pm »
What fun!! It's so great to have U back, Katherine! Okay, I'll throw something out that we haven't tackled yet (that I know of) . . . telephone.
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Offline David

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2006, 09:39:17 pm »
Ennis: "Jack are you a sheep?"



Jack: "Let me ask Lureen"



Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2006, 09:30:38 pm »
Okay, I'll throw something out that we haven't tackled yet (that I know of) . . . telephone.

Ok. I'll try. (You do realize that this post comes from the Random Interpretation Generator, aka the Mel-O-Tron, which was originally used to interpret "Sh**." Please keep the source in mind when reading this post. ;) )

Input data:

The Mel-O-Tron can only remember two appearances of a telephone in the movie, plus one oblique reference to a telephone:

1) In Aguirre's office, the telephone rings. Aguirre answers it and tells it: "No. No. Not on your f***in' life."

2) Ennis and Lureen talk on the telephone after Jack's death.

3) Oblique reference: Ennis received a call from his boss, telling him that all the heifers were calving at once.

*puts data into the Mel-O-Tron Random Interpretation Generator*

Output: The telephone represents Jack's Dreams.

Scene 1) Aguirre tells Jack's Dreams "Not on your f***in' life." This is clear foreshadowing that Jack's dream of living openly with Ennis will never come true during Jack's life.

Oblique reference: Ennis receives a telephone call telling him that baby cows are being born. This reference occurs during the first appearance of Monroe, who will eventually marry Alma after Ennis and Alma divorce. This symbolizes the potential for Ennis to have lived with Jack after Ennis's divorce; however, the telephone (Jack's Dreams) do not appear on the screen, implying that Jack's dreams just don't have a chance.

Scene 2) Ennis kisses the telephone (well, ok, he holds it to his lips) at the end of the conversation with Lureen. This is the first time we ever see Ennis with a telephone. Ennis embraces Jack's dream. Unfortunately, Jack is dead.

*the Mel-O-Tron accepts that other interpretations may be possible; however, ordering soup is completely out of the question*
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2006, 11:15:33 pm »
Wow, Mel-O-Tron! That's fantastic. I know that according to the rules I should come up with a whole 'nother interpretation but yours is so good I am totally convinced by it. And here's another instance of it: Ennis, at least after the divorce, didn't have a phone. (He had to send a card to announce his divorce, and then use a pay phone to call Lureen.) So yet more evidence that Jack's dreams don't have a chance with Ennis, so ...

OK, wait, wait -- another interpretation is suggesting itself. Or actually it's sort of the flip side of Mel's. Maybe phones, or lack thereof, represent Ennis' obstinacy toward Jack's offers. Not on your fucking life would Ennis change his mind. Ennis doesn't own a phone because he's not willing to listen to them. He does talk to his boss on the phone, but that's because he puts work as a higher priority than his relationship with Jack. But in the end, after talking to Lureen, he embraces the phone, realizing his mistake ...


Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2006, 11:24:22 pm »
That's it! That's the answer to all my questions about what BBM means to me! I am afraid of telephones (seriously, really, I am, or at least of calling people on the phone). BBM is telling me... embrace the phone. Do not fear the phone.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2006, 11:33:19 pm »
So sad. If only Jack and Ennis could have communicated by email ...

But then all of their interactions would have taken on even more scarily literal meanings. And there wouldn't have been enough smileys in the world to keep them together ...

"I wish I knew how to quit you!"  >:( :'(  :-* :-\

"Well, why don't you? Why don't you let me be?"  ???  :-X :-* :'(

PS That's the first time I've had a chance to use that X-mouthed smiley. I have no idea what it's supposed to mean, but it seems like it would apply to a lot of Ennis' lines.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2006, 12:47:04 pm »
THere was another reference to a phone that will perhaps shed some light on all the other references. That's when Jack, talking into the whiskey bottle, says, "When it comes to our marriage, we could do it over the phone." I'm still in a muddle about the phone, however, so I'll send this for a spin thru the mel-o-tron and see what comes out!  :)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2006, 01:16:21 pm »
So how about phone = marriage, or life partnership, or commitment?

No fuckin way will Jack and Ennis have it. Ennis isn't even willing to consider having one. He will take a call, though, from his boss. Jack and Lureen may not have the greatest marriage, but they are still connected by that phone. And after talking to Lureen, Ennis belatedly and sadly embraces the phone.

For that matter, all forms of long-distance communication seem to play a role. Ennis and Jack, when apart, communicate entirely by postcards. At the end, Ennis has a postcard by the shirts, as if to keep that line of communication open. Meanwhile, he has retreated from the world so much that he doesn't go into the PO in town anymore -- instead, he has a mailbox. Or does that suggest he's still holding out the hope of receiving "mail"?

Offline David

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2006, 01:46:02 pm »
. Meanwhile, he has retreated from the world so much that he doesn't go into the PO in town anymore -- instead, he has a mailbox.

That was my thought.    Alot of people thought the mailbox was a good sign.   I didn't think so.  To me, this was his way of avoiding people in town, whether hopefull girls like Cassie or suspicious eyes from the townsfolk.

"you ever go outside and see someone looking at you and think that he knows?"

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 01:49:48 pm by DavidinHartford »

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2006, 05:10:04 pm »
Poor Ennis. He clearly needs some high-speed internet in his life.

So the work phone call means that Ennis is married to his work?

I wonder what a cell phone would mean in this context.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2006, 04:45:31 pm »
In a way, the post cards are like the binoculars. Jack and Ennis correspond through the post cards, believing themselves to be invisible, but Alma reads and makes note of what they say. And at the end a bureaucratic rubber stamp obscures what's on the card Ennis sends Jack. They are being watched through the post cards just as they were watched by Aguirre through the binoculars. It's clear at the end that Ennis has a fond spot for post cards since he includes one in the shrine he's set up in the closet. So, that's why I think the mailbox is a nostalgia thing, put up by Ennis in  hopes of receiving a post card or two from his daughters one day. And lo and behold, as soon as he puts up the mailbox, his daughter appears!! Post cards figure in Annie Proulx's other works, in fact she wrote a novel called Post Cards in which replicas of hand written post cards appear throughout the book.

I see the post cards this way because of a personal experience I had while in college. I was home on break and my travelling boyfriend sent me a post card mentioning how much he was looking forward to lying beside my naked body when he returned. I caught hell for it (I didn't do anything!! >:() and never did get to see the actual post card, which my parents threw away.

Thank you for bringing this up Katherine, because I've been meaning to discuss the post cards for, oh, about eight months now!!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 05:47:07 pm by Front-Ranger »
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2006, 03:28:33 pm »
Considering the events of today, I'd say Ennis should be sending up a prayer of thanks to his lucky stars that he lived before high-speed Internet, Mel!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline laurel

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2006, 07:00:32 pm »
I just found this thread today.  I know I'm a little late to the party, but I'm hoping the Mel-O-Tron can help me out.  What do you think is the significance that in Annie Proulx's story, Ennis notifies Jack of his divorce by phone (the ONLY time they ever spoke on the phone), but in the movie, Ennis informs Jack of the divorce by post card?! ;D
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.   -Annie Proulx (Icon by alighttofollow)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2006, 11:29:08 pm »
I just found this thread today.  I know I'm a little late to the party, but I'm hoping the Mel-O-Tron can help me out.  What do you think is the significance that in Annie Proulx's story, Ennis notifies Jack of his divorce by phone (the ONLY time they ever spoke on the phone), but in the movie, Ennis informs Jack of the divorce by post card?! ;D

Well, the movie has more love scenes, but the book has more sex, so...

Phone - sex; mail - love?

Don't ask me what text messaging is...
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Offline laurel

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2006, 11:45:38 pm »
I bow to the wisdom of the Mel-o-Tron!! ;D  Thank you!

Oh...just thought of another phone reference.  When Cassie said she left message for Ennis with Steve at the ranch, I assume she is talking about phone messages.  But Ennis ignored the messages, so in this case....

phone = no sex

Hmmm, an exception to the rule....we can call it the Cassie Corollary!
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Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2006, 07:09:38 am »
Don't ask me what text messaging is...

THAT! exactly would have been my next question!   ;D

[the smilies have lost their hat!? is that because of the sofware update? hope they will be covered again soon..]

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Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2006, 07:29:22 am »
Sorry to interupt this call, but what about them bottles? Have you counted the number of times we see bottles. It's mostly Jack who holds them (*he drank a lot*..  :( ). At the beginning it's each their own (but Jack's the drinker - how many bottles are there on the table next to him in the first café they go to - *if we are working together, we may aswell drink together*, whereas there's only one next to Ennis). But Jack's willing to share his beverage and then they even start drinking from the same bottle. Towards the end it's each their own again..

Many times you see the bottle distinctively 'highlighted' by light - I always wondered whether that was done on purpose..

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Offline EnnisLovesJack

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2006, 04:20:11 pm »
Ennis: "Jack are you a sheep?"



Jack: "Let me ask Lureen"




Well dang it if you didn't make me laugh out loud! Brilliant and discerning use of screen caps to go with those lines, David.  :laugh:
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2006, 11:16:10 pm »
Re: text messaging...

Well, my cell phone vibrates when I get a message.

Ummmmmmmmmm.....

Next question?

Sorry to interupt this call, but what about them bottles? Have you counted the number of times we see bottles. It's mostly Jack who holds them (*he drank a lot*..  :( ). At the beginning it's each their own (but Jack's the drinker - how many bottles are there on the table next to him in the first café they go to - *if we are working together, we may aswell drink together*, whereas there's only one next to Ennis). But Jack's willing to share his beverage and then they even start drinking from the same bottle. Towards the end it's each their own again..

I sort of noticed that they go through stages in drinking:

1) Bar at the beginning: each has his own bottles.

2) "More words than I've spoke in a year": Jack pours whiskey into Ennis's mug.

3) Before TS1: Both are drinking from the same bottle. (Aside: doesn't Jack just hand Ennis the bottle after the bear scare, too?)

So the drinking says something about the level of intimacy.

1) Separate.

2) Getting closer...

3) Could end up passing saliva back and forth on the lip of that bottle if they aren't careful...

and then, by TS2, the drinks are irrelevant and they just swap the saliva directly.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2006, 01:24:31 am »
3) Could end up passing saliva back and forth on the lip of that bottle if they aren't careful...

and then, by TS2, the drinks are irrelevant and they just swap the saliva directly.

 :laugh:

Good way to look at it. That damn spit string is one of my favorite moments in the movie* (STILL no blushing smiley!)!

*among tiny details, I mean. From an artistic perspective, of course. (I had to actually get up out of bed and go to the computer at 1 a.m. to make this edit; I suddenly imagined people reading it and going, "Oh, sure. All the things to like about this movie -- the emotional impact, the subtle symbolism, the fine acting -- and she picks the spit string!"  ::))
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 02:00:38 am by latjoreme »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2006, 05:25:20 am »
But Jack's willing to share his beverage and then they even start drinking from the same bottle. Towards the end it's each their own again..

j. U. d. E.

What scene do you refer to? At the last time we see them drinking together, the evening before the lake side argument, they share a bottle of whiskey, they pass it back and forth.


Quote
From nakymaton:
So the drinking says something about the level of intimacy.

1) Separate.

2) Getting closer...

3) Could end up passing saliva back and forth on the lip of that bottle if they aren't careful...

and then, by TS2, the drinks are irrelevant and they just swap the saliva directly.

That's a good one.
And yet another detail from the movie which is well thought-out. The level of elaborateness never ceases to amaze me.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2006, 08:41:38 am »
What scene do you refer to? At the last time we see them drinking together, the evening before the lake side argument, they share a bottle of whiskey, they pass it back and forth.

I don't know what Jude was observing, but we see them drinking when they're far away from one another quite often -- Jack in the two bar scenes and then at the dance benefit, and Ennis waiting for Jack and then when Cassie picks him up.

(Drinking alone, but then swapping spit -- or in the case of Jack trying to pick up Jimbo, thinking about swapping spit but not succeeding -- with someone else. Ennis and Jack might swap spit with Cassie and Lureen, but they ain't drinking from the same bottle, if you know what I mean.)

(And to Katherine: this is where you can jump in and say that sharing spit via a bottle of Old Rose on the last camping trip is no replacement for getting to see real spit-swapping. ;D )

(Oh, and to overinterpret symbolism, I guess this means that, when Jack gives Ennis the whiskey bottle after the bear attack, Jack really wants to swap spit. Or maybe kiss Ennis's owie and make it better. Or something like that.)

Edit: and I probably shouldn't even mention Old Man Twist spitting into the cup at the end of the movie, should I?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 10:41:10 am by nakymaton »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2006, 11:42:56 am »
and I probably shouldn't even mention Old Man Twist spitting into the cup at the end of the movie, should I?

I know there have been whole threads dedicated to interpreting the negative meanings of spit -- OMT's spitting as well as all the times Jack or Ennis spits during a conversation to express anger or contempt or dismissal. But I've never considered analyzing spit in the positive sense.

I'll say this, though, if it turns out that Ang plotted out the saliva symbolism so carefully that it included the spit string, I will gain a whole new level of admiration for his genius.


Offline nakymaton

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2006, 12:20:34 pm »
I know there have been whole threads dedicated to interpreting the negative meanings of spit -- OMT's spitting as well as all the times Jack or Ennis spits during a conversation to express anger or contempt or dismissal. But I've never considered analyzing spit in the positive sense.
Well, it's not necessarily positive. There's a difference between swapping spit and spitting. ;D For instance, one is not typically suffused with a sense of pleasure after dreams involving spitting, whereas dreams about swapping spit... ;D

But, you know, spitting into a CUP, as opposed to swapping spit on the lip of a bottle... ;)

Quote
I'll say this, though, if it turns out that Ang plotted out the saliva symbolism so carefully that it included the spit string, I will gain a whole new level of admiration for his genius.

Actually, he planned it all out carefully, every bit of it, to drive us all completely bonkers.

I'm sending the man my therapy bill.
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2006, 03:30:15 pm »
I don't know what Jude was observing, but we see them drinking when they're far away from one another quite often -- Jack in the two bar scenes and then at the dance benefit, and Ennis waiting for Jack and then when Cassie picks him up.

Maybe that's what she meant.

Quote
Edit: and I probably shouldn't even mention Old Man Twist spitting into the cup at the end of the movie, should I?

No, you shouldn't  ;) Not while talking about swapping spit. Urrrgh, what a yucky thought.

Quote
From Katherine:
But I've never considered analyzing spit in the positive sense.

Spit is also used in a positive way in TS1. Well, not only spit.
with the help of the clear slick and a little spit

So spit as a feature (?) occurs not only in the movie, but already in the story. Like Annie Proulx used very clear and vivid pictures and described things directly and outright. I love her desciptions of the smells of two rooms: Ennis's and Alma's bedroom when Junior is a little baby and the room in the motel Siesta.


Offline Lynne

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Re: Don't Never Order Soup...
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2006, 04:13:34 am »
*bump*
"Laß sein. Laß sein."