Author Topic: "Sometimes I miss...... (Read 9687 times)

jpwagoneer1964 · « **on:** July 17, 2006, 01:06:48 am »

From what I here from you regarding this night, most think it happened the last night of the trip. I believe it was the 2nd or 3rd into the trip. Mostly because the conversation revolves about catching up with each others lives, etc. and to me that naturally would have happened early on in the trip. When Jack said how much he missed him, Ennis took it as his queue not to mention that he couldn't until the very end.
I am also in the camp that Jack really was with the rach foreman's wife and the talk of her and Cassie is a bookend to
'I'm not queer".

Ellemeno · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2006, 01:47:34 am »

Well, I don't agree with anything you just said here, but I'm delighted that you are saying it!

A belated welcome to BetterMost! Clarissa

Jeff Wrangler · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2006, 08:59:29 am »

Tell you what, I'm not prepared at this time to agree, either, but I have to admit it has at least crossed my mind to wonder, What if Jack wasn't lying about the gender of the person he was having an affair with? What if it was LaShawn and not Randall?

After all, she is a lively little gal. ...

That might suggest that it still was the tire iron that got Jack, but because he was messin' with LaShawn rather than with Randall. I'm just thinkin' about that line about expectin' to get shot by Lureen or the husband, one.

Yikes, wouldn't that put a different spin on things!

Katie77 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2006, 09:12:34 am »

No way.....it wasnt LaShawn, he was having it off with Randall.....

Remember he had told his daddy he would bring his friend up to the ranch, he was gonna leave his wife.......

Jack didnt need another woman....when he went to mexico, he wanted a man, when he played up, it was with a man.....

But, I do wonder why he even mentioned he was getting a bit on the side, from the ranchers wife.....was it so Ennis wouldnt think he was playing around with another guy, and to give him the picture of him still being a bit of a rascal, but with a woman....

Jeff Wrangler · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2006, 09:32:04 am »

Quote from: Katie77 on July 17, 2006, 09:12:34 am

But, I do wonder why he even mentioned he was getting a bit on the side, from the ranchers wife.....was it so Ennis wouldnt think he was playing around with another guy, and to give him the picture of him still being a bit of a rascal, but with a woman....

I don't have Story to Screenplay with me here at work to check, but hasn't Jack already told Ennis that he could conduct his marriage over the phone? I think you're basically right--he says this so Ennis wouldn't wonder if he was getting "it" with another guy.

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2006, 11:29:31 am »

In Childress, there were a lot of ranch formans wifes besides Leshawn ands as Jack indicated they were no longer relations with him and Lureen. I just don't think Jack would say that to Ennis unless he meant it or was making a joke.

Meryl · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2006, 12:26:05 pm »

Quote from: Katie77 on July 17, 2006, 09:12:34 am

No way.....it wasnt LaShawn, he was having it off with Randall.....

Remember he had told his daddy he would bring his friend up to the ranch, he was gonna leave his wife.......

Jack didnt need another woman....when he went to mexico, he wanted a man, when he played up, it was with a man.....

But, I do wonder why he even mentioned he was getting a bit on the side, from the ranchers wife.....was it so Ennis wouldnt think he was playing around with another guy, and to give him the picture of him still being a bit of a rascal, but with a woman....

I agree that the comment by John Twist makes it more likely Jack was actually seeing Randall, and of course the invitation we see Randall give to Jack about the cabin.

I've often wondered whether Jack was trying to find a way to actually tell Ennis about Randall that night. First he asks about Ennis seeing someone, then he mentions seeing the ranch foreman's wife. There's that maddening pause right after "Tell you what" before he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Was he really trying to say "It's the ranch foreman I've been seeing, and not his wife"?

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2006, 12:57:02 pm »

Quote from: meryl on July 17, 2006, 12:26:05 pm

I've often wondered whether Jack was trying to find a way to actually tell Ennis about Randall that night. First he asks about Ennis seeing someone, then he mentions seeing the ranch foreman's wife. There's that maddening pause right after "Tell you what" before he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Was he really trying to say "It's the ranch foreman I've been seeing, and not his wife"?

I think Jacks hesitation is him gathering up his emotions, his voice cracks and he does sound like he is going to loose it. He wouldn't talk about any other men, he knows that would hurt Ennis

Meryl · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2006, 01:25:25 pm »

Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on July 17, 2006, 12:57:02 pm

I think Jacks hesitation is him gathering up his emotions, his voice cracks and he does sound like he is going to loose it. He wouldn't talk about any other men, he knows that would hurt Ennis

And that's why, even if he might have been going to, he ultimately doesn't mention Randall, I'm sure. I love how young Jack sounds when he says that line. It's like he sounded back on Brokeback.

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2006, 01:43:01 pm »

Quote from: meryl on July 17, 2006, 01:25:25 pm

And that's why, even if he might have been going to, he ultimately doesn't mention Randall, I'm sure. I love how young Jack sounds when he says that line. It's like he sounded back on Brokeback.

I wish Jack would have taken it a step further"Ennis it's killing me not to be with you always, if I could wake up next to you everyday, (gently) I wish that you would just......."

Mikaela · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2006, 02:07:03 pm »

Quote

From Meryl

There's that maddening pause right after "Tell you what" before he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Was he really trying to say "It's the ranch foreman I've been seeing, and not his wife"?

Yes, I definitely think so. He's in the tentative first stages of possible quitting..... He thinks he needs to be more honest to see where that may get them. But ultimately, he can't bring himself to hurt Ennis like that. He can't manage to say those words. So instead of saying that he's seeing the Ranch foreman, he tells Ennis the *reason* why he's seeing the ranch foreman. It hurts the heart to watch it.

And poor Ennis can't manage to find a word to say in response; - his bad conscience over not being able to make August and not having told Jack yet, making him even more mute faced with Jack's bared emotions.

The glint of the firelight in Ennis's eyes in that scene is nearly eerie - tiny bright points of light in the darkness - it's as if Ennis's inner light has lit up now that he's sitting next to Jack.

From early on in my Brokeback "obsession" I've found that this scene, the one that ends with "sometimes I miss you so much..." is the most painful one of them all for me to watch. Knowing how each truly feels for the other, knowing all that goes unsaid between them there, knowing what lies ahead...... that scene just kills me. Sometimes I skip past it because it's so painful to watch.

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2006, 02:14:59 pm »

Quote from: Mikaela on July 17, 2006, 02:07:03 pm

And poor Ennis can't manage to find a word to say in response; - his bad conscience over not being able to make August and not having told Jack yet, making him even more mute faced with Jack's bared emotions.

The glint of the firelight in Ennis's eyes in that scene is nearly eerie - tiny bright points of light in the darkness - it's as if Ennis's inner light has lit up now that he's sitting next to Jack.

From early on in my Brokeback "obsession" I've found that this scene, the one that ends with "sometimes I miss you so much..." is the most painful one of them all for me to watch. Knowing how each truly feels for the other, knowing all that goes unsaid between them there, knowing what lies ahead...... that scene just kills me. Sometimes I skip past it because it's so painful to watch.

This is one of my favorites, because it one of the many ways Jacks tells Ennis he loves him.
And you lnow from the next scene, the tent, Ennis tenderly responded.

Daphne7661 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2006, 02:39:26 pm »

Quote from: Mikaela on July 17, 2006, 02:07:03 pm

Yes, I definitely think so. He's in the tentative first stages of possible quitting..... He thinks he needs to be more honest to see where that may get them. But ultimately, he can't bring himself to hurt Ennis like that. He can't manage to say those words. So instead of saying that he's seeing the Ranch foreman, he tells Ennis the *reason* why he's seeing the ranch foreman. It hurts the heart to watch it.

And poor Ennis can't manage to find a word to say in response; - his bad conscience over not being able to make August and not having told Jack yet, making him even more mute faced with Jack's bared emotions.

The glint of the firelight in Ennis's eyes in that scene is nearly eerie - tiny bright points of light in the darkness - it's as if Ennis's inner light has lit up now that he's sitting next to Jack.

From early on in my Brokeback "obsession" I've found that this scene, the one that ends with "sometimes I miss you so much..." is the most painful one of them all for me to watch. Knowing how each truly feels for the other, knowing all that goes unsaid between them there, knowing what lies ahead...... that scene just kills me. Sometimes I skip past it because it's so painful to watch.

Ohhh, my heart is just breaking... I don't think I could love Jack and Ennis anymore and then I read other's posts and just come unglued. How can this positively magnificent movie hurt so damn much...

Luvlylittlewing · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2006, 09:11:58 pm »

No way was jack actually having an affair with a Rancher's wife. Actually, I'm in the camp (a very small minority) who does not believe Jack had an affair with either laShawn or Randall! Jack mentioned having an affair with a woman only after Ennis mentioned putting the blocks to Cassie. In fact, I'm sure Jack asked his lover about finding someone to marry as a means to see who was in Ennis' life at the time - whether Jack had any competition. When Ennis admitted an affair with cassie, I don't think Jack liked that very much. He countered with the fiction about the rancher's wife as a sort of tit-for-tat, IMO, a one-upmanship. Of course, I could be wrong.

If jack were indeed having an affair with Randall, why mention it to Ennis? Jack was smart enough to know that Ennis would go ballistic, that Ennis would knock him out if he confessed to being with another man! Ennis would have also been destroyed to learn of Jack's affair, if it actually happened, and I'm sure jack wouldn't want Ennis hurt. Just my humble POV.

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2006, 09:24:19 pm »

Quote from: littlewing1957 on July 17, 2006, 09:11:58 pm

No way was jack actually having an affair with a Rancher's wife. Actually, I'm in the camp (a very small minority) who does not believe Jack had an affair with either laShawn or Randall! Jack mentioned having an affair with a woman only after Ennis mentioned putting the blocks to Cassie. In fact, I'm sure Jack asked his lover about finding someone to marry as a means to see who was in Ennis' life at the time - whether Jack had any competition. When Ennis admitted an affair with cassie, I don't think Jack liked that very much. He countered with the fiction about the rancher's wife as a sort of tit-for-tat, IMO, a one-upmanship. Of course, I could be wrong.

If jack were indeed having an affair with Randall, why mention it to Ennis? Jack was smart enough to know that Ennis would go ballistic, that Ennis would knock him out if he confessed to being with another man! Ennis would have also been destroyed to learn of Jack's affair, if it actually happened, and I'm sure jack wouldn't want Ennis hurt. Just my humble POV.

Of course since were talking fiction we can all be right. But I think I like your senaro best, that Jack was being faithful to Lureen (in terms of other women) as well as Ennis. I realize there was Mexico, but we only have evidence he was only there once and judging by the hollow look on Jack's face it just made him miss Ennis that much more.

Luvlylittlewing · « **Reply #15 on:** July 17, 2006, 09:40:54 pm »

Wow, thanks, JP. Most people think I'm crazy, argue me down when I say there is not enough evidence to support Jack having an affair with either laShawn or Randall. The absolute brillance of this movie lies in the ambiguities, IMO. We can talk about it (and I'm sure we will) until the end of time and still we will be presented a different POV. Hope I'm making sense.

Katie77 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2006, 09:56:32 pm »

I think the fact that Old man Twist mentioned to Ennis, that Jack was gonna bring him, then some rancher up to the farm, indicated that there was something going on with randall...and in the book, when Ennis hears this, it says, that he was sure then that it was the tire iron that killed Jack....."So now he knew it had been the tire iron".....

I agree though, the conversation with Jack and Ennis, was Jack trying to find out who,if anyone, Eniss had in his life....and Jack said the ranchers wife, just to let him know that he was getting his rocks of somewhere, seeing as how, he could "have sex over the phone" with Laureen.....

coffeecat33 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2006, 10:41:40 pm »

Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on July 17, 2006, 09:24:19 pm

Of course since we're talking fiction we can all be right.

After reading Annie Proulx's essay in 'Story to Screenplay,' the essence seems to be about being different and in the minority and growing up in a society so homophobic that men can be tortured and killed for being different. Ennis is pretty clear about "2 men living together? No way!" because of the brutal death his father made him see when he was a child. Jack is more willing to take a risk although he's still not "out." I think the whole story dances around the issue of being gay in a time and geographical location where being gay was not okay. Hence the "I'm not queer." "Me neither." exchange. Ennis' whole life he convinces himself he's "normal and all" because he's with a woman. Jack says it's a rancher's wife because Jack always takes his cues from Ennis. Ennis says he's "puttin the blocks to a waitress" so Jack has to come up with something equal to brag about.

IMO I don't see how anyone can think Jack had an affair with Lashawn. The only reason he asked her to dance was to get a jab in at Lurene because she says "husbands don't ever wanna dance with their wives..." Jack is always trying to "ride the bulls" and never showed any interest in a woman. He met Lurene when they were both high from winning the rodeo, Lurene had money, Lurene aggressively pursued Jack and he went along with it. You can see him make the decision the first night he & Lurene are dancing and he hears the word, "lonely" in the song. You can see how stricken he is - how lonely and how much he misses Ennis. So much so that he can hardly stand it.

bbm_stitchbuffyfan · « **Reply #18 on:** July 17, 2006, 11:04:05 pm »

I don't think Jack had anything going on with LaShawn. I think he asked her to dance only to spite Lureen, not because of any genuine attraction.

I am not as sure whether or not he and Randall had something going. I am, currently, thinking he had nothing going on with Randall at that time but might have later.

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 17, 2006, 11:09:31 pm »

Quote from: bbm_stitchbuffyfan on July 17, 2006, 11:04:05 pm

I don't think Jack had anything going on with LaShawn. I think he asked her to dance only to spite Lureen, not because of any genuine attraction.

I am not as sure whether or not he and Randall had something going. I am, currently, thinking he had nothing going on with Randall at that time but might have later.

Randall may have been just an option to Jack which may be why me mentioned him to his folks out of frustration with Ennis. "it never came to pass".

Luvlylittlewing · « **Reply #20 on:** July 17, 2006, 11:29:59 pm »

Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on July 17, 2006, 11:09:31 pm

Randall may have been just an option to Jack which may be why me mentioned him to his folks out of frustration with Ennis. "it never came to pass".

My thoughts exactly. One other thing, why would Randall leave LaShawn to live with another man? Randall must have been aware of the risks of such an arrangement in that day and time.

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 17, 2006, 11:38:46 pm »

Quote from: littlewing1957 on July 17, 2006, 11:29:59 pm

My thoughts exactly. One other thing, why would Randall leave LaShawn to live with another man? Randall must have been aware of the risks of such an arrangement in that day and time.

Maybe he wanted some peace and quiet and was willing to take any risk. Ha Ha Ha! And maybe that was the ONLY reason Randall asked Jack to the cabin!

I do agree with what you said.

I still think that the "I miss you...." was early on in that last campout.

Noviani · « **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2006, 09:24:32 pm »

Quote from: littlewing1957 on July 17, 2006, 09:40:54 pm

Wow, thanks, JP. Most people think I'm crazy, argue me down when I say there is not enough evidence to support Jack having an affair with either laShawn or Randall. The absolute brillance of this movie lies in the ambiguities, IMO. We can talk about it (and I'm sure we will) until the end of time and still we will be presented a different POV. Hope I'm making sense.

I stand on your side littlewing and JP.

i think the only affair (if that is one) that Jack did was mexico, mostly either on need or revenge when Ennis turned him down after the divorce.

don;t think he will play around with other man or woman.

we are talking about a guy who drove 14 hours or so 2-3 times a year and rotating his life around that.

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 16, 2006, 11:09:30 pm »

I aways thought since he said it, and I think wouldn't lie to Ennis, that he really was having a thing with the ranch forman's wife. Just don't think Jack was the one that started it.

Mark

Noviani · « **Reply #24 on:** November 21, 2006, 08:28:40 pm »

Oh ya.. i forgot about this (the ranch wife).. how can i!!

well, jack has always had this need...so maybe it's a way for him to take off the tension. but i don't believe it's more than that.

in some ways. Ennis still had intimate moments with Alma before it was turning cold for good.

BTW, off topic, i just watched Jar head. nothing much to say, Jake is playing other character but i can't help the warm sensation when i heard him saying " it's allright... it's allright" on one scene.

twistedude · « **Reply #25 on:** November 27, 2006, 01:25:53 am »

Scenes progress ijn chronologiacl order. there is no way the night before the last morning coukd be anyhing but the night before the last morning. If it were, it would be the ONLY scene out or chronological order. Except for the one flashback.

"Tell you what" does not precede a confession; it precedes a strong statement of ones own feelings. In both Jack's and his father's speech.

"the truth is..." means, "I am now changing the subject to a real one."

I think...

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 27, 2006, 01:49:43 am »

Quote from: twistedude on November 27, 2006, 01:25:53 am

Scenes progress ijn chronologiacl order. there is no way the night before the last morning coukd be anyhing but the night before the last morning. If it were, it would be the ONLY scene out or chronological order. Except for the one flashback.

I disagree. It wouldn't cahnge the chornological order if it were the 2nd or 3rd nite like I maintain.They just didn't and had no reason to show the days in between.

Front-Ranger · « **Reply #27 on:** May 13, 2007, 01:41:07 pm »

Ever wonder what Ennis meant when he said he was "putting the blocks" to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears Bar in Signal? Here's a scene of a Ford truck on blocks that I saw as I was going home on Friday. It seemed to epitomize my life at that point--up on blocks waiting for a major overhaul! The truck was parked next to a ramshackle brick building with windows "blocked" with sheet metal, and there was an overgrown garden in the back. I was inexplicably drawn to the place and had to pull over, whip out my camera, and click away even though somebody might run out with a tire iron any minute! But nobody did.

loneleeb3 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 15, 2007, 02:11:07 pm »

Quote

From early on in my Brokeback "obsession" I've found that this scene, the one that ends with "sometimes I miss you so much..." is the most painful one of them all for me to watch. Knowing how each truly feels for the other, knowing all that goes unsaid between them there, knowing what lies ahead...... that scene just kills me. Sometimes I skip past it because it's so painful to watch.

Out of all I read, this i agree with the most!
It is gut wrenching to see Jack lay himself out emotionally that way to no reaction from Ennis but silence.
I don't know if he had an affair or with whom, I just know he was hurting, A LOT!
However, I think the departure scene and the Dozy Embrace are worse. Knowing that the last time they were together they fought. I can't imagine what Ennis goes through when he finds out jack is gone!
Oh SHIT! Here I go bawlin at work

ifyoucantfixit · « **Reply #29 on:** May 16, 2007, 03:30:14 am »

Oh sweetie,,,{{{{{{{{{{{{huggs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} im sorry. Take a break,, touch up your make-up,
and dive back in....buck up little buckaroo.....it does get better.

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Author Topic: "Sometimes I miss...... (Read 9687 times)