Author Topic: And this is who runs our country...  (Read 17104 times)

Offline ednbarby

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And this is who runs our country...
« on: July 17, 2006, 09:54:45 am »
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbOTQhWlF24


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Offline starboardlight

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2006, 10:05:24 am »
/sigh

I can't do either.
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Offline Arad-3

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2006, 12:49:53 pm »
I'm sorry but it made me laugh. Worry, but laugh.
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vkm91941

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2006, 12:57:21 pm »
It is funny in a pathetic, disappointing and humiliating kind of way.  :-\
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 04:36:41 pm by vkm91941 »

Offline Arad-3

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2006, 03:55:29 pm »
right on Vic!
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2006, 04:11:18 pm »
What is it about? I'm on dial-up at my house and this would take about 2 hours to load up.

Is it a jab at President Bush? If so, I'm getting digital Internet tonight!

By the way, did you hear about the slip up at the G8 today? President Bush thought the microphone was turned off and he said a BAAAAAAAAAAAD word!  :D
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vkm91941

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2006, 04:38:41 pm »
What is it about? I'm on dial-up at my house and this would take about 2 hours to load up.

Is it a jab at President Bush? If so, I'm getting digital Internet tonight!

By the way, did you hear about the slip up at the G8 today? President Bush thought the microphone was turned off and he said a BAAAAAAAAAAAD word!  :D

It's classic GWB flubs and embrassing VERY public fowl-us in the guise of David Letterman's Top Ten List.  Top Ten Favorite GWB moments.  And this man is supposed to be the leader of the free world.....  Shhhheeeeshhh..... no wonder we have no credibility.

Offline Arad-3

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2006, 05:37:35 pm »
I agree with you Vicky on the credability isssue.  In alot of countries they protect their leaders credability more than they do here. I have no idea why they publcize that kind of stuff on television when theres a war going on. They make this country look so stupid to the world. That's why they don't respect us. I think that there should be a limit to what the news is allowed to reveal about the leader of the free world. I know, amendment 1, rights for the press and  freedom of speech, blah ,blah  blah.

We need these rights. But our own press telling the whole world every weakness in our president and country is so harmful to us. Because we loose respect all over the world, It puts our men and woman on the front line and us here in America in even more danger..
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 06:51:28 pm by Arad-3 »
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2006, 06:40:13 pm »
Believe me Arad when I say that the credibility of America as the leader of the free world does not rest on the public flubs of your president. Ye shall be judged by your actions - ie: with regards to creating a war in Iraq instead of pursuing Bin Laden, but allowing Korea and Iran to develop neuclear weapons, the criminal harassement of travellers to your country because they are HIV+, the criminal way "war criminals" have been treated in prisons in Iraq and on Cuban soil, the continuing denial of rights to gays in general (the gay mariage issue in particular), not to mention the accademy awards.

No, your country's reputation as the best in the world is not being tarnished by your president's flubs, like bumping his head on the ceiling of a helicopter - it's Amerca's continuing support of non-freedom policies that is making the world over develop it's views of America as the land that is not free (there's the joke! - I've been to the states once in the past 10 years [I live less than a 2 hour car ride away from the border] - & that was to get from the maritimes to southern Ontario).

Sorry for the rant - but it felt good.
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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2006, 06:51:15 pm »
Believe me Arad when I say that the credibility of America as the leader of the free world does not rest on the public flubs of your president. Ye shall be judged by your actions


Wow - you do know that these policies are not a reflection of what everyone here thinks are right or honorable or universally held values?  I think my favorite commentary on politics these days is Team America: World Police.  It is a raunchy comedy by the guys who created South Park, and the entire cast is played by marionettes - just perfect that they should all be puppets.

There is no one who gets the moral high ground in that movie, and I think it's the same with American politics.  Everyone has polluted that water, and no one gets out free by aligning themselves with a party or position.  And maybe I'm stepping in the middle of things, but George Bush doesn't need David Letterman to make him look foolish.

Did you see the press conference recently where he was giving a reporter a hard time about wearing sunglasses?  Turns out the reporter is blind.  The reporter was pretty good about it.  He was only unhappy that the President never answered his questions.  Bush needs no help to look bad...
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2006, 06:58:56 pm »
Hi Roland -

No need to apologize friend. Many of us down here in the good ol' U.S. of A. feel exactly the same as you.

It's a very sad fact, but it is also very true.

Certainly I am not anti American. I love my country. And I don't think I am being unpatriotic when I disagree with some of the antics my country pulls. Wanting what is best for my country and my fellow Americans  is very patriotic in my opinion. Our country was founded and built on disagreeing viewpoints.

And some Americans may disagree with what I say now. Most however, will probably agree with me. But you must admit, Mr. Bush has not helped things along over these past 4 years. And poking fun at our idiotic president from time to time will not make matters any worse than they already are.

We need to begin concentrating on fixing problems here in the U.S. (and the mess we have made in most other parts of the world) rather than attempting to find new ways to make things worse than they already are.

And that is just my insignificant, little, small time, Hoosier/American opinion.   :)

Edited for spelling errors. If I ever manage to type one post longer than two words in this forum (or any other) without a typo the first time around, I'm going to buy myself a new car.  :)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 07:04:42 pm by David925 »
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Offline Arad-3

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2006, 07:24:37 pm »
You are all so right.   How in hell did we ever let our country get in such a mess?   Did we all just turn our backs to what was really happening? This is a very frightening time.

I live in a small town in upstate New York. For the first time since the Vietnam war a Marine came home in a casket. 23 year old killed by a car bomb in Iraq. The body arrived in town at midnight and everyone in town( around 3500) lined the street in complete silence and held candles. It was the saddest sight. It brought this war closer to us. It really is very frightening and its only going to get worse.



Dont feel bad about editing David. I type with two fingers, I edit constantly. Problem is by time I get my responses out everybody has long gone on to another subject!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 07:28:41 pm by Arad-3 »
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Offline GG

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2006, 08:07:45 pm »
I hear you Arad. It is scarey. I had a first cousin killed by a road side attack in Iraq too.I agree there is too much freedom of speech for the press in this country. Thats not making the problem though. But it does not help either.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 09:02:14 pm by GG »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2006, 11:14:41 pm »
Well said David.

Yeah, Dubya is an idiot, but so what?  At least there we're showing that to the world - up front and center with our reporting.

The leader of the free world acts like an idiot and a crusading war mongering religious maniac?  We show it and we also show how our own people don't care for it and don't respect him for it either.

*sigh*  As for the rest, I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a nation or people on this planet whose hands are clean from oppression, aggression, selling of arms or cruelty to its own people.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2006, 10:26:23 am »
*sigh*  As for the rest, I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a nation or people on this planet whose hands are clean from oppression, aggression, selling of arms or cruelty to its own people.

True.  But the difference is we present ourselves as being a shining example of being better than all that when in fact we are not.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2006, 09:48:26 am »
Wow - you do know that these policies are not a reflection of what everyone here thinks are right or honorable or universally held values?  I think my favorite commentary on politics these days is Team America: World Police.  It is a raunchy comedy by the guys who created South Park, and the entire cast is played by marionettes - just perfect that they should all be puppets.

Hey Celeste, I wonder if it's at all wise of me to be talking on a thread about your illustrious leader?  Oh well, fools rush in and all that...  It's strange that he gets described as "the leader of the free world".  Huh?  Ex-squeeze me?  Ah, baking-powder?  Can someone please explain this one to me?  I'm not sure if I object to the "free world" part of this statement, or that he's the leader of it.  Next you'll be telling me that the U.S. is a democracy!  Anyway, I think we all have the leaders we deserve.  You have GWB, we have John Howard.  Just because J-Ho (as I call him) is a little more polished than GWB and it's unlikely that there will ever be a montage of foibles like the one Letterman has put together, that doesn't make him any less sanctimonious.  There's a puerile but appropriate joke that comes to mind.  Q: How can you tell if a politician is lying?  A: Their lips are moving.

Ok, that's enough of that, well almost:

I agree with you Vicky on the credability isssue.  In alot of countries they protect their leaders credability more than they do here. I have no idea why they publcize that kind of stuff on television when theres a war going on. They make this country look so stupid to the world. That's why they don't respect us. I think that there should be a limit to what the news is allowed to reveal about the leader of the free world. I know, amendment 1, rights for the press and  freedom of speech, blah ,blah  blah.

We need these rights. But our own press telling the whole world every weakness in our president and country is so harmful to us. Because we loose respect all over the world, It puts our men and woman on the front line and us here in America in even more danger..

I can't begin to tell you how much I disagree with this Arad.  Oh who am I kidding, yes I can, but I'm in danger now of becoming more honest than I should be amongst friends whom I love (that's you guys) when I've not got your permission to do so.  Suffice to say that the fundamental difference between Australia and America is the level of popular gullibility and the number of very big guns.

But back to the really important issue - my second favourite film: Team America - World Police.  Strangely though, I thought it was a documentary.  After all, the speech at the end made complete sense to me:

We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Film Actors Guild are pussies. And Kim Jong Il is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!

Now I ask you, have you ever heard anything said that was more credible, by any of our collective leaders, ever in their lives?

Ok, if I ever needed to be worried about little red dots spontaneously appearing on my person, now would be the time. :o
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2006, 10:19:24 am »
I'm with you, Chris.  Not only should we question our leaders' credibility, we should question it all the time and DEMAND competency and credibility.  The trouble is we're not doing that enough.  Only David Letterman, Jon Stewart, Jay Leno, Bill Maher, et. al have the balls (and let's not be coy - are financially rewarded) for doing so.  Our press should be lambasting this pinhead DAILY.  Hell, CONSTANTLY.  Christ, they were on Clinton's case like ugly on a monkey for getting a few extramarital blow jobs.  Meanwhile, this man is KILLING people all over the world with his actions or lack thereof.  Thousands of them - in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Africa, in the Middle East, and in our own country.  EVERY day.  And they say nothing.  He can't give a proper answer as to why we're still in Iraq, let alone why we even went there in the first place, and they say nothing.  He couldn't bring himself to end his 30-day vacation a couple of days early when a Category 5 hurricane was headed to one of his country's biggest ports, and they said nothing.

Please.  At the very core of the problems in this country sits the news media.  They, and they alone, have the power to change things.  And they choose not to.  They choose not to because that would adversely affect their bottom line - a bottom line that is controlled entirely by big pharmaceuticals, the oil companies, and all other all-powerful corporations in this country, which also, by the way, control our federal government.

As always, a (in this case, Green Day) song comes to mind:

Hear the sound of the falling rain
Coming down like an armageddon flame (Hey!)
The shame, the ones who died without a name

Hear the dogs howling out of key
To a hymn called Faith and Misery (Hey!)
And bleed, the company lost the war today

I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
On holiday

Hear the drum pounding out of time
Another protestor has crossed the line (Hey!)
To find the money's on the other side

Can I get another Amen? (Amen!)
There's a flag wrapped around a score of men (Hey!)
A gag, A plastic bag on a monument

I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
On holiday

 :P


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mvansand76

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2006, 11:23:22 am »
Oh my- This guy's such an idiot. In every way possible.

Talking of idiots, we have one as our prime-minister! Jan-Peter Balkenende.

Offline YaadPyar

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2006, 11:25:36 am »

But back to the really important issue - my second favourite film: Team America - World Police.  Strangely though, I thought it was a documentary.  After all, the speech at the end made complete sense to me:

We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Film Actors Guild are pussies. And Kim Jong Il is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!

Now I ask you, have you ever heard anything said that was more credible, by any of our collective leaders, ever in their lives?


Ahhhh Chris - the sheer romantic poetry of Matt & Trey!!  That is one of the most memorable movie speeches ever, and remains a favorite of mine, but it's so hard to work those quotes into conversation.

 ;D

I trust you own a copy of the movie?  It may not be intentionally a documentary, but it speaks volumes of truth about politics, American and otherwise.

 :-*
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2006, 05:16:47 pm »
Oh my- This guy's such an idiot. In every way possible.

Talking of idiots, we have one as our prime-minister! Jan-Peter Balkenende.

Melissa,  when do you all go back to the polls to vote? We have to wait another 2 1/2 years until we get rid of our idiot leader.  :(
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2006, 05:59:24 pm »
Ahhhh Chris - the sheer romantic poetry of Matt & Trey!!  That is one of the most memorable movie speeches ever, and remains a favorite of mine, but it's so hard to work those quotes into conversation.

So true, sometimes it's a hard.  Unless you've seen the film, "I.N.T.E.L.L.I.G.E.N.C.E. is down!  I repeat, we have no I.N.T.E.L.L.I.G.E.N.C.E." wouldn't make a lot of sense.  But maybe if we had a montage... (resists urge to sing)...

Quote
I trust you own a copy of the movie?  It may not be intentionally a documentary, but it speaks volumes of truth about politics, American and otherwise.

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2006, 09:48:30 pm »
True.  But the difference is we present ourselves as being a shining example of being better than all that when in fact we are not.

I think this is past tense.  We USED to present ourselves as being a shining example of being better than all that when we are not and honestly, never were.

Our international policies and actions have always been a little questionable.  Yes, the U.S. has helped people all over the world, but we also - covertly and not - interfered with elections abroad, pushed in U.S. friendly political leaders that people of those countries did not want, sent in arms and 'advisors' to conflict areas when the people of the U.S. did not approve nor our representatives give our administration leave to do so - etc., ad nauseum.

Domestically, it hasn't been much better.  There were never any 'good old days' of a Golden Age in the U.S., we never have been truly free and accepting as our press releases say.  We are - compared to the majority of the rest of the world - but we're not saints and have streets of gold and people who thought we were and did were sadly naive.

We as a people WANT to be and we should try to continue to strive for the ideals of our Founding Fathers and later leaders, but when we STILL have racial/sexual/gender/religious biases in this country, we're not likely to reach that lofty pinnacle anytime soon.

But what gets me are the all the countries out there pointing the finger at us.  I want to say back to some of these countires "Hey pot, I'm kettle."
« Last Edit: July 20, 2006, 10:15:24 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Amber

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2006, 12:14:40 am »
Quote
By the way, did you hear about the slip up at the G8 today? President Bush thought the microphone was turned off and he said a BAAAAAAAAAAAD word!

On a side note regarding the G8 conference - Bush not only had the issue above but had the rather brillant idea that it was appropriate behavior to start rubbing the shoulders of the Chancellor of Germany.  This man simply does not think before he acts.  The Chancellor was obviously offended by this move - as well she should have been.

Quote
Please.  At the very core of the problems in this country sits the news media.  They, and they alone, have the power to change things.  And they choose not to.  They choose not to because that would adversely affect their bottom line - a bottom line that is controlled entirely by big pharmaceuticals, the oil companies, and all other all-powerful corporations in this country, which also, by the way, control our federal government.

Regarding the media - my best friend recently watched a film called "Weapons of Mass Deception" which discusses how the media has failed to cover the Iraq war.  It is not supposed to be a political dissertation on the subject, it simply tries to focus on how the media has reported items regarding Iraq.  I have not seen the movie as of yet, but it is on my list!!  My friend tells me she learned more about the Iraq war in two hours than she has in the YEARS and YEARS of news reporting.  It sounds very interesting.

I think it's outrageous how the media reports the news in this country.  It is more than apparent to me that I get a more realistic view of the war in Iraq by visiting websites of international news sources, or watching BBC, or heck, even Jon Stewart reports better news than FOX news does!  As Stewart jokes "it isn't news unless the White House has issued a press release."  We hear practically nothing about casualties in Iraq, practically nothing about how our friendly fire injuries others, and practically nothing on the innocent civilians we are killing.  Mass media has worked hard (and unforunately has been successful) at dumbing down the American news viewing population.  Many have grown to assume that the AP, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, FOX, MSNBC etc. etc. etc. are reporting everything that we need to know.  It will take a massive upheaval to change anything - and I just don't see it happening any time soon.

At this point I feel confidant saying that our country as it stands right now is a massive disappointment.  We are acting in completely inconsistent ways, we have a leader who seriously thinks it is correct to ask "Is our children learning?", we have policies that openly discriminate against others and the list gets worse and worse. 

Don't get me wrong, I like living in America.  It's a challenge unlike anything else I've faced.  The important thing to remember is that it is part of being an American to challenge politics, be grassroots and dive in with the goats to avoid the sheep (not that I have anything against the woolies!) to avoid promoting the status quo.  I only hope that there are winds of change blowing, but I tell you what ... if Jeb Bush decides to run for President - I may consider moving to Alberta *lol*

REMEMBER TO VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 02:20:29 am by Amber »
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vkm91941

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2006, 01:51:39 am »


a couple of bozo's

mvansand76

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2006, 05:15:05 am »
Melissa,  when do you all go back to the polls to vote? We have to wait another 2 1/2 years until we get rid of our idiot leader.  :(

November 22nd. That's because of the fall of the government last month.

Offline dannyboy

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2006, 06:50:36 am »

thanks barb

the george bush thing was a classic!  8)

Giancarlo

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2006, 07:36:15 am »
Well what this country needs is bigger change. I'm a libertarian so naturally I'm at odds with both parties. I view both the democrats and republicans are horribly corrupt and incredibly foolish. There needs to be some newer faces. Of course when I voice these views especially at my campus I get into a lot of trouble. I got into a pretty heated discussion in one class I was with in... with both democrats and republicans in the room. I constantly blasted the democrat's inability to set any alternative planning and the republicans with their scandals... believe me, I criticized them quite equally. I'm really disgusted with both parties. In California, the democrats have been awful. That's why I actually did volunteer for Arnold Schwarzenegger's re-election campaign. Don't get mad at me even if he is a republican... the guy did sign in an equal insurance law for gays and lesbians a few years back (more then Gray Davis ever did). I'm not pleased with his decision to veto that one bill, but overall, I am pleased with him as a governor... and the most important thing is he is not a career politican.

As far as Hurricane Katrina is concerned, there was complacency on every level of government. The state of Louisania happens to be one of the most corrupt in the entire country. But beyond that... I really must getting to bed before my cyncism pisses anyone off. I really don't have confidence in the right or left. I think people have to start thinking and come back to the center.

Libertarianism is a mixture of policies. Specifically open market minimal government policies, and open social policy (including pro-gay marriage). That puts me at odds with both parties.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 07:37:52 am by Giancarlo »

Offline Amber

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2006, 02:28:24 am »
Actually, I would agree with you on Schwarzenegger.  I think for all of the hassling he's had to deal with, he's actually done a decent job.  I'm not from California and I'm not even a Republican.  I'm just impressed that he's cut across the "political lines" refused to put up with (some) of the status quo and has had the courage to make decisions based on what is best for the people, not for the party.

Kudos to him for that!
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2006, 09:40:26 am »
Libertarianism is a mixture of policies. Specifically open market minimal government policies, and open social policy (including pro-gay marriage). That puts me at odds with both parties.

Hey there Giancarlo.  Can you help me out with this libertarian biz?  Actually when I started reading your post I misread it as librarian and I thought, hey, so librarians are political over there.  But why not, librarians are well read after all!  Anyway, I understand what you've said here but I don't understand the practical application.  Is it a form of idealism where it is assumed that everyone is nice to each other, and no one takes advantage of anyone else?

I'm not trying to be a smart-arse here, I'm actually very interested.  Growing up as a child I was enamoured by American culture and Americans in general.  I may be an insufferable romantic, but I like being romantic.  One of the greatest shocks of my life was when I travelled to the U.S. in 1993 and did the whole west cost thing, and while standing in a line at Disneyland a young man overhearing my accent asked me why I would want to come "here", and in his tone it was clear he meant "loser country".

I'm not here to lend any support to that kind of sentiment.  I don't agree with it, and as far as I'm concerned it worse than defeatist, it's accepting and fatalist.  I'd like to hear how America is changing.  I know it is, I can see it, but more importantly I can feel it.  I love that questions are being asked, and that the U.S. is growing up, finally.  Sorry if that is a patronising thing to say, don't worry, we're not so far removed from you in Australia that I could take the high-moral ground or anything.

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2006, 11:02:00 am »
One of the greatest shocks of my life was when I travelled to the U.S. in 1993 and did the whole west cost thing, and while standing in a line at Disneyland a young man overhearing my accent asked me why I would want to come "here", and in his tone it was clear he meant "loser country".

Hiya Aussie,

You know, I say that to foreign tourists when I meet them here in the U.S.

I guess I ask because aside from a few touristy things and a whole lot of gorgeous open country and parks, there isn't a whole lot to see here in the U.S.  We'd wonder why anyone from Europe/Asia etc., places with thousands of years of history, places to go, things to see would want to come to the U.S. where aside from a few ancient native sites almost everything human-made is less than 300 years old.  A friend of mine is Zimbabwean (sp?), who moved to and studied law in South Africa and now lives in London longs to come to the U.S. and the southwest.  I also questioned him on why and he replied to see the 'great openness of the country'.  And this guy was born and raised in Africa.  [shrugs]  Grass is always greener I suppose.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2006, 01:33:41 pm »
Hiya Aussie,

You know, I say that to foreign tourists when I meet them here in the U.S.

I guess I ask because aside from a few touristy things and a whole lot of gorgeous open country and parks, there isn't a whole lot to see here in the U.S.  We'd wonder why anyone from Europe/Asia etc., places with thousands of years of history, places to go, things to see would want to come to the U.S. where aside from a few ancient native sites almost everything human-made is less than 300 years old.  A friend of mine is Zimbabwean (sp?), who moved to and studied law in South Africa and now lives in London longs to come to the U.S. and the southwest.  I also questioned him on why and he replied to see the 'great openness of the country'.  And this guy was born and raised in Africa.  [shrugs]  Grass is always greener I suppose.

Delalluvia -

Your post made me think of the time a few close friends of mine from Great Britain came to the U.S. to visit me.

While they were here, another friend of mine proudly told my British friends that his house here in Indianapolis was over 150 years old. My English friend turned and gave him a confused look and then said "Your house is 150 years old? In England, even our new houses are older than that".    :)

And you're right Delalluvia. Other than some man made junk, there is very little to see or do in this country of ours. My British friends are coming back to the U.S. again next year. But they are not coming to see the U.S., they are coming to see me and my boyfriend. They were NOT impressed with this country.

They really did screw up though. Nobody should come to Indiana when they visit the U.S. The U.S. may offer little to see or do, but Indiana is the place where fun goes to die.  :(
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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2006, 01:39:59 pm »
I disagree David. I had a great time at a Cal-Purdue game once. Ate some great sausage and cheese. And isn't that where Bucky Fuller used to hang out?? He was a lot of fun, especially with Tinkertoys.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2006, 03:06:30 pm »
And isn't that where Bucky Fuller used to hang out?? He was a lot of fun, especially with Tinkertoys.

Buckminster Fuller? Wasn't he the one who talked about "Spaceship Earth", geodesic domes, ephemeralization, synergetics and tetrahedra arrays?

I think he was from Massachusetts and spent much of his later life teaching in Carbondale, Illinois. I doubt he spent any time in Indiana.   ;)

I disagree David. I had a great time at a Cal-Purdue game once. Ate some great sausage and cheese.

You spent your time in Indiana eating sausage and cheese?

My point exactly!  :(
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 03:08:51 pm by David925 »
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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2006, 04:01:01 pm »
Indiana, Illinois...one of those I states!! As for the sausage and cheese, the sight of all those hogs and cows made me hungry!! I had to go grab some fish tacos soon as I got home tho.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2006, 06:58:37 pm »
Your post made me think of the time a few close friends of mine from Great Britain came to the U.S. to visit me.

They really did screw up though. Nobody should come to Indiana when they visit the U.S. The U.S. may offer little to see or do, but Indiana is the place where fun goes to die.  :(

Ah, Indiana, that tourist capital of the world.  ;)

Yeah, I guess if I had to recommend to outsiders where to go in the U.S. it would be Washington DC and Boston/New York for all the historical buildings/museums/artsy things and California for some great country, the seaside and all the cheesy 'touristy' things anyone might want to do.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2006, 10:38:40 pm »
Indiana, Illinois...one of those I states!! As for the sausage and cheese, the sight of all those hogs and cows made me hungry!! I had to go grab some fish tacos soon as I got home tho.

Fish tacos!   :D

You probably had a difficult time finding fish tacos here in Indiana.

While you were in Indiana, did you try a brain sandwich? I know it sounds disgusting, but they are quite good. Normally they are pig brains (I have had cow brains too). They are deep fried and served on a bun with lettuce and tomato. Most people will also add either mustard or mayonaisse. They look and taste like a tenderloin. You haven't been to Indiana unless you tried a brain sandwich!

Up in Northern Indiana, around Lake Wawasee, they serve deep fried frog's legs. Kosciuscko County is famous for them. You can also find them in Lagrange and Napanee Indiana.

Of course roasted corn on the cob (in the husk) is also popular throughout the state. Slabs of butter are added to the corn, the husks are pulled back up over the corn and it is roasted on a grill. When eaten, the husks are pulled back and the corn is piping hot and dripping with melted butter.

We have our oddities here in Indiana, but no fish tacos, I'm afraid.  ;)
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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2006, 11:20:48 pm »
Hey there Giancarlo.  Can you help me out with this libertarian biz?  Actually when I started reading your post I misread it as librarian and I thought, hey, so librarians are political over there.  But why not, librarians are well read after all!  Anyway, I understand what you've said here but I don't understand the practical application.  Is it a form of idealism where it is assumed that everyone is nice to each other, and no one takes advantage of anyone else?

I'm not trying to be a smart-arse here, I'm actually very interested.  Growing up as a child I was enamoured by American culture and Americans in general.  I may be an insufferable romantic, but I like being romantic.  One of the greatest shocks of my life was when I travelled to the U.S. in 1993 and did the whole west cost thing, and while standing in a line at Disneyland a young man overhearing my accent asked me why I would want to come "here", and in his tone it was clear he meant "loser country".

I mean no offense or anything, but what are you talking about? I'm a bit lost. I haven't provided a reply because I don't know what you're asking me. I pretty much explained what libertarians are (and what they believe in, though there are different kinds of libertarians).

Offline stevenedel

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2006, 07:11:47 am »
Delalluvia -

Your post made me think of the time a few close friends of mine from Great Britain came to the U.S. to visit me.

While they were here, another friend of mine proudly told my British friends that his house here in Indianapolis was over 150 years old. My English friend turned and gave him a confused look and then said "Your house is 150 years old? In England, even our new houses are older than that".    :)

 ;D I remember staying in Pasadena some years ago, with a family with whom my travel companion had lived as an au pair many years earlier. As a present we gave them a photobook about the Netherlands that they didn't even care to open; but we were given an extensive tour of Pasadena by the lady of the house, who was a member of the Pasadena Historical Society (that sounded slightly oxymoronic right away). The tour climaxed in a visit to a grubby back alley, where we were kindly invited to admire a brick wall that dated back all the way to... 1867. My! Half the houses in my street are older.

I was struck both by the lack of any wider historical consciousness as well as the complete disinterest in anything non-American. Which, to get back on topic, appears to be the main handicap of the present US president. But given the freak show that passes for a government over here, I will wisely refrain from any further comments...

(And, to move OT again, for somebody like me, who is from a busy, crowded little country, traveling through the States does make for a terrific holiday. The sense of space and freedom, the combination of great facilities and endless unspoilt natural beauty, are rare even in Europe as a whole. I'm looking forward to my next visit, though that will be limited to Chicago, and mostly work-filled - if they'll let me in, that is... I have an Iranian visa in my passport  :-\)
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2006, 08:03:08 am »
I mean no offense or anything, but what are you talking about? I'm a bit lost. I haven't provided a reply because I don't know what you're asking me. I pretty much explained what libertarians are (and what they believe in, though there are different kinds of libertarians).

Fair enough, no offence taken, but if you'll forgive me I don't think what you've described as libertarian is either self-explanatory or self-evident, and to say that you are at odds with the traditional political parties is like saying that you're against bigotry.  In short, and to be blunt, so what and who isn't?  So maybe I wasn't clear in my question.  I apologise.  I'll have another go at it.

You have said that libertarians are for open markets and minimal government policies.  Well what is that exactly?  If there was a new political party that came into existence that called itself libertarian, how would these policies be different than the others?  Would it somehow fall between the two extremes of socialism and capitalism?  If so, isn't this naive since all politicians would describe themselves in this way?  The disgust that have in both the republicans and democrats, is that because they are republicans and democrats or because the current batch of politicians are corrupt and it has nothing to do with the policies they are supposed to promote?  I welcome your challenge to me, as I hope you do too, and I hope that I have successfully worded this without offence.  I also often find myself at odds with friends, family, and colleagues with regard to politics.  My question to them is always rather simple: are you just complaining or do you have a practical alternative in mind?  Unfortunately that tends to end the debate rather quickly.  For university students, being an activist too easily becomes the point of activism.  I've often wondered why all those university students from the 70's and 80's who are now the world's leaders now seem (presumably) so in favour of conservatism (read: anti-progressiveness).  So my question to you is what makes you and your ideas so different?
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2006, 08:46:49 am »
I guess I ask because aside from a few touristy things and a whole lot of gorgeous open country and parks, there isn't a whole lot to see here in the U.S.  We'd wonder why anyone from Europe/Asia etc., places with thousands of years of history, places to go, things to see would want to come to the U.S. where aside from a few ancient native sites almost everything human-made is less than 300 years old.  A friend of mine is Zimbabwean (sp?), who moved to and studied law in South Africa and now lives in London longs to come to the U.S. and the southwest.  I also questioned him on why and he replied to see the 'great openness of the country'.  And this guy was born and raised in Africa.  [shrugs]  Grass is always greener I suppose.

Goodness gracious delalluvia & David.  What do I say to this?  Yes of course your country is spectacular, so is mine, so is every country I've ever been to.  That's the coolest thing I learnt whilst travelling, everywhere in the world is interesting and worthwhile if you just take the time to learn a bit about it first, and the most interesting thing about a country is its people.

IMHO, one of the most interesting things that is happening in your country is that you are starting to question the bullshit that you are being fed by your leaders.  More and more people are realising that it is entirely possible to live a life with honesty and integrity, and you're demanding it from your leaders and even your celebrities.  This is not supposed to be patronising or some kind of pep-talk, I hope it doesn't come across that way.

One thing I'm not so keen on though: your diets leave a lot to be desired.  Give me fresh, raw, and slow-food any day.  And Front-ranger: brain sandwiches???  You can keep those to yourself.
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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2006, 08:54:38 am »
The brain sandwiches were not my idea, they were Indiana David's. Chris, your comment made me decide to post the lyrics here to a song I heard at the Crosby Stills Nash & Young concert I went to last Thursday nite (I also have some other stuff about it on the Anything Goes site). This was written by Neil Young:

LIVING WITH WAR

And when the dawn breaks
I see my fellow man
And on the flat screen
We kill and are killed again
And when the right fails
I pray for peace
Try to remember Peace
I join the multitudes
I raise my hand in peace
I never bow to the laws of the thought Police
I take a holy vow
To never kill again
to never kill again.

Don't take no tidal wave
Don't take no mass grave
Don't take no smokin gun
To show how the west was won
But when the curtain falls I pray for peace
Try to remember peace
in the crowded streets
In the big hotels
in the mosques and the doors of the old museums
I take a holy vow
To never kill again
Try to remember peace

The rockets red glare
Bombs bursting in air
Give proof through the night
That our flag is still there
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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2006, 09:02:14 am »
Just one more...

Lookin for a Leader

Looking for a leader
To bring our country home
Reunite the red, white, and blue
Before it turns to stone

Lookin for somebody
Young enough to take it on
CLean up the corruption
And make the country strong

Walkin among our people
There's someone who's straight and strong
To lead us from desolation
And a broken world gone wrong

To be continued
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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2006, 09:15:44 am »
The brain sandwiches were not my idea, they were Indiana David's. Chris, your comment made me decide to post the lyrics here to a song I heard at the Crosby Stills Nash & Young concert I went to last Thursday nite (I also have some other stuff about it on the Anything Goes site). This was written by Neil Young:

Quite right FR, sorry about that, and thanks for posting the lyrics.  If only these were the sentiments all politicians held close to their hearts.
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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2006, 11:03:38 am »
The rest of Lookin for a Leader, by Neil Young

Someone walks among us
And I hope he hears the call
And maybe it's a woman
Or a black man after all.

Maybe it's Obama
But he thinks that he's too young
Maybe it's Colin Powell
To right what he's done wrong

America has a leader
But he's not in the house
He's walkin here among us
And we've got to seek him out.

Yeah, we've got our election
But corruption has a chance
We've got to have a clean win
To regain confidence
America is beautiful
But she has an ugly side
We're lookin for a leader
In this country far and wide
We're lookin for a leader
With the great spirit on his side
Lookin for a leader
With the Great Spirit on his side

Someone walks among us
And I hope he hears the call
And maybe it's a woman
Or a black man after all.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2006, 11:48:38 am »
While you were in Indiana, did you try a brain sandwich? I know it sounds disgusting, but they are quite good. Normally they are pig brains (I have had cow brains too). They are deep fried and served on a bun with lettuce and tomato. Most people will also add either mustard or mayonaisse. They look and taste like a tenderloin. You haven't been to Indiana unless you tried a brain sandwich!

While I was visiting relatives in Mexico as a child, I remember sitting in a restaurant for breakfast.  I can't recall what I had that morning, but I remember they were BBQ'ing kid outside on a rack (yummy!  I love BBQ cabrito) and my aunt had a plate of scrambled eggs and brains.

Yes, the brains looked exactly like what it was.   EEECCH!!  :-X 

Quote
Up in Northern Indiana, around Lake Wawasee, they serve deep fried frog's legs. Kosciuscko County is famous for them. You can also find them in Lagrange and Napanee Indiana.

Strange that they should serve frog legs so far north. Seems more normal that this would be a dish relegated to hotter, warmer swampy climes like Louisiana.

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2006, 07:14:34 pm »
Fair enough, no offence taken, but if you'll forgive me I don't think what you've described as libertarian is either self-explanatory or self-evident, and to say that you are at odds with the traditional political parties is like saying that you're against bigotry.  In short, and to be blunt, so what and who isn't?  So maybe I wasn't clear in my question.  I apologise.  I'll have another go at it.

So what? I was just provided my beliefs. Isn't this a place we can share our beliefs? I thought this was a relevant thread. A libertarian as I said is one who is for minimal government intereference in the economy, and a small central government.

Quote
You have said that libertarians are for open markets and minimal government policies.  Well what is that exactly?  If there was a new political party that came into existence that called itself libertarian, how would these policies be different than the others?  Would it somehow fall between the two extremes of socialism and capitalism?  If so, isn't this naive since all politicians would describe themselves in this way?  The disgust that have in both the republicans and democrats, is that because they are republicans and democrats or because the current batch of politicians are corrupt and it has nothing to do with the policies they are supposed to promote?  I welcome your challenge to me, as I hope you do too, and I hope that I have successfully worded this without offence.  I also often find myself at odds with friends, family, and colleagues with regard to politics.  My question to them is always rather simple: are you just complaining or do you have a practical alternative in mind?  Unfortunately that tends to end the debate rather quickly.  For university students, being an activist too easily becomes the point of activism.  I've often wondered why all those university students from the 70's and 80's who are now the world's leaders now seem (presumably) so in favour of conservatism (read: anti-progressiveness).  So my question to you is what makes you and your ideas so different?

Libertarians for the most part, are for Adam Smith style policy. They are basically capitalists. One who wants little government intereference in the economy. That is the best I can explain it. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, then I don't know how to clarify. Libertarians are certainly closer to capitalists then socialists. And neither political party in the United States is for smaller government. Both parties are for these big pork barrel projects where money often disappears (Boston tunnel I think is one of them) and gets used incorrectly. We libertarians just call for accountable and a reduction of redtape.

What do you mean that 'I'm just complaining'? And by the way, universities are far different now then they were in the 70s and 80s. Students (those 18-24) are far more ignorant of current policies (and it really shows in their voting record, which is very weak).

My ideas aren't different. My ideas have existed for many centuries, since the time of Adam Smith. It is just that neither the democrats or republicans do not want smaller government (as a whole). One focuses on corporate subsidies and defense, and the other on welfare and social programs. I am for a big defense budget (because frankly, we need one) but I'm not for big corporate subsidies, and large welfare or social programs. Look at it this way, my views exist in this country in both parties but as far as I'm concerned... only a minority of politicans from either party believe the same as I do.

Arnold Schwarzenegger for one is streamlining government and that is why I campaigned for him, regardless of his political party (he's no conservative republican, and he has been at odds with Bush numerous times).

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2006, 01:46:14 am »
So what? I was just provided my beliefs. Isn't this a place we can share our beliefs? I thought this was a relevant thread. A libertarian as I said is one who is for minimal government intereference in the economy, and a small central government.

Yes it is, of course it is, all of what you say here.  I thought this might happen: that you'd read my questions as an attack on your beliefs.  Seriously, that is the opposite of what I was trying to do.  The only provocation I was aiming for was a bit of a healthy (and harmless) debate.  Clearly I have failed in that, so sorry.

You have gone further into this in your reply so I do now understand a little better, not that I understand who or what an Adam Smith style policy is.  And I now understand about the focus on capitalism, which I wasn't expecting, and reduced government bureaucracy.  The "so what" part is merely an observation that just about everyone says this regardless of their political alignment.  But none of this was meant to be taken personally, and my question about people who complain was just that, a question, and in fact was related to the people in my life whose only interest is pointing out the problems with governments without considering what the alternatives might look like.  To them I say, if you got everything that you ever wanted, what would that world look like, and how would it be different to today?  I was just trying to establish where you place yourself in this context; I was not accusing you of complaining.

Giancarlo, please accept my apologies and take this post as a complete back-pedal.  I really was just looking to explore U.S. politics with you because you sounded like you had some interesting ideas (or did I misinterpret "what this country needs is bigger change"?), but more importantly I had never heard of libertarian before.  Please do not let my ignorance and clumsy writing make you think that I think there is anything wrong with your beliefs.

A great friend of mine has a quote that I often borrow: "There is no one in the world that is higher than me...  And there is no one in the world that is lower than me".  I use a cruder one: "Opinions are like arse-holes, we all have them...  Some are nicer than others, but really, they all have the same purpose and they're all full of sh*t".

All the best, Chris.
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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2006, 07:40:05 pm »
Yes it is, of course it is, all of what you say here.  I thought this might happen: that you'd read my questions as an attack on your beliefs.  Seriously, that is the opposite of what I was trying to do.  The only provocation I was aiming for was a bit of a healthy (and harmless) debate.  Clearly I have failed in that, so sorry.

I had to think this over a while before responding. I know you were not attacking my views, but you were pretty critical of what I believe. I felt like I had to strengthen my defense in my own beliefs and was on the defensive.

Quote
You have gone further into this in your reply so I do now understand a little better, not that I understand who or what an Adam Smith style policy is.

If you don't know much about Adam Smith, I can direct you to a book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553585975/sr=8-1/qid=1153784248/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7405490-8948802?ie=UTF8

The Wealth Of Nations was written by Adam Smith, but I must warn you... it is over 1,200 pages. I have read it three times myself, but that was because of I usually have a niche for reading books like that without dozing off.

Quote
and my question about people who complain was just that, a question, and in fact was related to the people in my life whose only interest is pointing out the problems with governments without considering what the alternatives might look like.  To them I say, if you got everything that you ever wanted, what would that world look like, and how would it be different to today?  I was just trying to establish where you place yourself in this context; I was not accusing you of complaining.

I am not one of those people. I am myself getting my degree in political science, and I frequently take part in elections. I do not believe people who don't vote should complain.

Quote
  I really was just looking to explore U.S. politics with you because you sounded like you had some interesting ideas (or did I misinterpret "what this country needs is bigger change"?), but more importantly I had never heard of libertarian before.  Please do not let my ignorance and clumsy writing make you think that I think there is anything wrong with your beliefs.

Libertarianism exists in many different countries (under different names). In Europe it can often be European conservatives (who are nothing like US conservatives). Libertarianism respects the personal lives of inidividuals.

Offline YaadPyar

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2006, 12:17:49 pm »
This is from The Onion, a satirical newspaper.  It's one of my favortie news sources, along with The Daily Show and The Colbert Report. 

 :)

 
Bush Grants Self Permission To Grant More Power To Self
August 1, 2006 | Issue 42•31

WASHINGTON, DC—In a decisive 1–0 decision Monday, President Bush voted to grant the president the constitutional power to grant himself additional powers.

President Bush announces announcement of the new power-granting announcement.

"As president, I strongly believe that my  first duty as president is to support and serve the president," Bush said during a televised address from the East Room of the White House shortly after signing his executive order. "I promise the American people that I will not abuse this new power, unless it becomes necessary to grant myself the power to do so at a later time."

The Presidential Empowerment Act, which the president hand-drafted on his own Oval Office stationery and promptly signed into law, provides Bush with full authority to permit himself to authorize increased jurisdiction over the three branches of the federal government, provided that the president considers it in his best interest to do so.

"In a time of war, the president must  have the power he needs to make the tough decisions, including, if need be, the decision to grant himself even more power," Bush said. "To do otherwise would be playing into the hands of our enemies."

Added Bush: "And it's all under due process of the law as I see it."


"The president can grant himself the  power to interpret new laws however he sees fit, then use that power to interpret a law in such a manner that in turn grants him increased power."

In addition, the president reserves the right to overturn any decision to allow himself to increase his power by using a line-item veto, which in turn may only be overruled by the president.

Senior administration officials lauded Bush's decision, saying that current presidential powers over presidential power were "far too limited."

"Previously, the president only had the power to petition Congress to allow him to grant himself the power to grant more power to himself," Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez said shortly after the ceremony. "Now, the president can grant himself the  power to interpret new laws however he sees fit, then use that power to interpret a law in such a manner that in turn grants him increased power."

 In addition, a proviso in the 12th provision of the new law permits Bush the authority to waive the need for any presidential authorization of power in a case concerning national security, although legal experts suggest it would be little exercised.

Despite the president's new powers, the role of Congress and the Supreme Court has not been overlooked. Under the new law, both enjoy the newly broadened ability to grant the president the authority to increase his presidential powers.

"The only thing we can do now is withhold our ability to grant him more authority to grant himself more power—unless he authorizes himself to strip us of that power."

"This gives the president the tools he needs to ensure that the president has all the necessary tools to expedite what needs to be done, unfettered by presidential restrictions on himself," said Rep. John Cornyn (R-TX). "It's long overdue."

Though public response to the new law has been limited, there has been an unfavorable reaction among Democrats, who are calling for restrictions on Bush's power to allow himself to grant the president more powers that would restrict the powers of Congress.

"This is a clear case of President Bush having carte blanche to grant himself complete discretion to enact laws to increase his power," Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) said. "The only thing we can do now is withhold our ability to grant him more authority to grant himself more power."

"Unless he authorizes himself to strip us of that power," Reid added.

Despite criticism, Bush took his first official action under the new law Tuesday, signing an executive order ordering that the chief executive be able to order more executive orders.

In addition, Republicans fearful that the president's new power undermines their ability to grant him power have proposed a new law that would allow senators to permit him to grant himself power, with or without presidential approval.

© Copyright 2006, Onion, Inc. All rights reserved.
The Onion is not intended for readers under 18 years of age.
"Vice, Virtue. It's best not to be too moral. You cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality. If you apply that to life, then you're bound to live life fully." (Harold & Maude - 1971)

vkm91941

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2006, 05:08:24 pm »
I got this e-mail today thought I'd share....



Dear Victoria,

United with one voice, Democratic leaders from Joe Biden to John Murtha sent a clear message to George Bush -- it's time for a New Direction in Iraq. Our plan is straightforward: we believe that a phased redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq should begin by the end of 2006. And our soldiers in the region should transition to a more limited mission focused on counterterrorism, force protection of U.S. personnel, training and logistical support of Iraqi security forces.

Read the letter below and add your name by visiting:

http://giveemhellharry.com/iraq

Thank you,

Harry Reid


July 30, 2006

The President
The White House
Washington, D.C.

Dear Mr. President:

While the world has been focused on the crisis in the Middle East, Iraq has exploded in violence. Some 6,000 Iraqis were killed in May and June, and sectarian and insurgent violence continues to claim American and Iraqi lives at an alarming rate. In the face of this onslaught, one can only conclude that the Baghdad security plan you announced five weeks ago is in great jeopardy.

Despite the latest evidence that your Administration lacks a coherent strategy to stabilize Iraq and achieve victory, there has been virtually no diplomatic effort to resolve sectarian differences, no regional effort to establish a broader security framework, and no attempt to revive a struggling reconstruction effort. Instead, we learned of your plans to redeploy an additional 5,000 U.S. troops into an urban war zone in Baghdad. Far from implementing a comprehensive "Strategy for Victory" as you promised months ago, your Administration's strategy appears to be one of trying to avoid defeat.

Meanwhile, U.S. troops and taxpayers continue to pay a high price as your Administration searches for a policy. Over 2,500 Americans have made the ultimate sacrifice and over 18,000 others have been wounded. The Iraq war has also strained our military and constrained our ability to deal with other challenges. Readiness levels for the Army are at lows not seen since Vietnam, as virtually no active Army non-deployed combat brigade is prepared to perform its wartime missions. American taxpayers have already contributed over $300 billion and each week we stay in Iraq adds nearly $3 billion more to our record budget deficit.

In the interests of American national security, our troops, and our taxpayers, the open-ended commitment in Iraq that you have embraced cannot and should not be sustained.

Rather, we continue to believe that it is time for Iraqis to step forward and take the lead for securing and governing their own country. This is the principle enshrined in the "United States Policy in Iraq Act" enacted last year. This law declares 2006 to be a year of "significant transition to full Iraqi sovereignty, with Iraqi security forces taking the lead for the security of a free and sovereign Iraq, thereby creating the conditions for the phased redeployment of United States forces from Iraq." Regrettably, your policy seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

This legislation made clear that Iraqi political leaders must be informed that American patience, blood and treasure are not unlimited. We were disappointed that you did not convey this message to Prime Minister Maliki during his recent visit. Reducing the U.S. footprint in Iraq will not only give the Iraqis a greater incentive to take the lead for the security of their own nation, but will also allow U.S. forces to be able to respond to contingencies affecting the security of the United States elsewhere in the world.

We believe that a phased redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq should begin before the end of 2006. U.S. forces in Iraq should transition to a more limited mission focused on counterterrorism, training and logistical support of Iraqi security forces, and force protection of U.S. personnel.

Additionally, every effort should be made to urge the Iraqis to take the steps necessary to achieve a broad-based and sustainable political settlement, including amending the constitution to achieve a fair sharing of power and resources. It is also essential to disarm the militias and ensure forces loyal to the national government. Finally, an international conference should be convened to persuade other governments to be more involved, and to secure the resources necessary to finance Iraq=s reconstruction and rebuild its economy.

Mr. President, simply staying the course in Iraq is not working. We need to take a new direction. We believe these recommendations comprise an effective alternative to the current open-ended commitment which is not producing the progress in Iraq we would all like to see. Thank you for your careful consideration of these suggestions.

Harry Reid, Senate Democratic Leader
Nancy Pelosi, House Democratic Leader
Dick Durbin, Senate Assistant Democratic Leader
Steny Hoyer, House Minority Whip
Carl Levin, Ranking Member, Senate Armed Services Committee
Ike Skelton, Ranking Member, House Armed Services Committee
Joe Biden, Ranking Member, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Tom Lantos, Ranking Member, House International Relations Committee
Jay Rockefeller, Vice Chairman, Senate Intelligence Committee
Jane Harman, Ranking Member, House Intelligence Committee
Daniel Inouye, Ranking Member, Senate Defense Appropriations Subcommittee
John Murtha, Ranking Member, House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee

Add your name now:

http://giveemhellharry.com/iraq

Offline David In Indy

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2006, 06:07:28 pm »
I just signed it Victoria.

And I don't care what anybody says either.

Thank you for posting this link.

I said it before the war started, and I will say it again now.... This terrible war is illegal and we have no business being there.

People called me an anti-American too.  >:(
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2006, 03:02:10 pm »
I said it before the war started, and I will say it again now.... This terrible war is illegal and we have no business being there.

I'll drink to that.  Cheers.

No more beans!

Offline Sashca1007

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2006, 03:28:25 pm »
Hey, Barb, this is for you--   :laugh:

What?  George worry?
"From the vibration of the floorboard on which they both stood Ennis could feel how hard Jack was shaking."

Offline ednbarby

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2006, 10:09:07 pm »
Hey, Barb, this is for you--   :laugh:

What?  George worry?


:sneer:

Naturally, I love it.   ;D
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Offline notBastet

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Re: And this is who runs our country...
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2006, 02:00:01 pm »
I received this amusing story/joke in my email today... I hope this an appropriate place to share it.  It is entitled, "Stanley."

>George Bush goes to a primary school to talk to the kids to get a little
>PR.
>
>After his talk he offers question time.  One little boy puts up his hand
>and
>George asks him his name.
>
>
>
>"Stanley," responds the little boy.
>
>"And what is your question, Stanley?"
>
>"I have 4 questions:
>
>First, why did the USA invade Iraq without the support of the UN?
>
>Second, why are you President when Al Gore got more votes?
>
>Third, whatever happened to Osama Bin Laden?"
>
>Fourth, why are we so worried about gay-marriage when 1/3 of all Americans
>don't have health insurance?
>
>
>
>Just then, the bell rings for recess.  George Bush informs the kiddies that
>they will continue after recess.
>
>When they resume George says, "O K, where were we?  Oh, that's right,
>question time. Who has a question?"
>
>
>
>Another little boy puts up his hand.  George points him out and asks him
>his
>name.
>
>
>
>"Steve," he responds.
>
>"And what is your question, Steve?"
>
>Actually, I have 6 questions.
>
>First, why did the USA invade Iraq without the support of the UN?
>
>Second, why are you President when Al Gore got more votes?
>
>Third, whatever happened to Osama Bin Laden?
>
>Fourth, why are we so worried about gay marriage when 1/3 of all Americans
>don't have health insurance?
>
>Fifth, why did the recess bell go off 20 minutes early?
>
>And sixth, what the heck happened to Stanley?
>

“It can be a little distressing to have to overintellectualize yourself” - Heath Ledger