The story - translations...

[stevenedel]

Just wondering what experiences other Brokies from non-English speaking countries may have had with translations of the story...

I just finished reading the Dutch translation, and thought it was thoroughly awful  . It dates from way before the film, but after the movie they turned it into the cutest little hardcover book, containing just that one story. I couldn't resist, and thought it might also clarify the last handful of words I was too lazy to look up. So now I know that "wild colombine" is what we call akelei. It wasn't worth it, because in all essentials the translation just ruined the story. Even the title: "Twee cowboys" (i.e., "Two cowboys") - geeezzzz. Nearly every memorable phrase is mutilated in some way. "I wish I knew how to quit you" becomes "Ik wou dat ik wist hoe ik van je af kon komen", which is, literally: "I wish I knew how to get rid of you". "Let be, let be" becomes "Hou op, hou op", which is "stop it, stop it". When John Twist calls Jack's plan "half-baked", the translator for some mysterious reason chooses to avoid the perfectly synonymous Dutch "halfbakken", opting instead for "achterlijk", which means "retarded". The phrase describing Lureen's voice as polite but cold is rearranged so that its entire meaning changes: in the original, there's no doubt that she is polite; in the translation, there's no doubt her voice is cold as snow. Et cetera. et cetera.

It is a pretty depressing thought that fellow Dutchmen who can't read English have to make do with this. I am convinced that a better translator could have achieved far better results, and at the same time I wonder to what extent Proulx is untranslatable. Are translations into other languages any good?

[Penthesilea]

Uuuh, sorry to hear that the Dutch version is apparently fit to ruin the whole story.

I still haven't read the German translation of the story. I plan to, because I'm curious about how good or bad the translation is. Especially how they managed to translate some of my favourite lines.
But the book is still lent out and I will have to wait some more weeks to read it. I'll report when I will have read it.

I don't know about the story translations, but the dubbing respective the subtitles in other languages in the movie were often bad, too. I saw the German dubbed version and there were some mistakes in it.
I'm really curious whether the strory translations were made better or not. Good idea for a thread.

[Kajunite]

My Word!  How frustrating that must be for you two!  I have not gotten the short story in yet but I have a copy of the movie and the English subtitles can be played (along with the sound) and it would be better.  Our subtitles (primarily for the deaf) are the exact same thing as on the movie itself.  You both seem to be better with the English language than I am.  Would getting your addresses and sending you each a gift of a copy of the movie from Walmart be in order?  I would.  That way you can play it in English and read the subtitles in English. Would that help?

[David In Indy]

Hi Steven -

Check your email for a notification. I am sending you a personal message my friend. 

David.

[mvansand76]

Hi Stevenedel,

The first time I read the short story in September 2005 it was in Dutch and I really regret that I didn't wait a few days longer for my English version to arrive, the Dutch made the the text corny, only when I read it again in English I started to appreciate the story. Dutch sometimes is an awful language and translating IS an art. There, I said it...

 

[j.U.d.E.]

Oh geez! I can understand your frustration! I'm actually quite lazy or I chicken out, because I avoid translations at ALL COSTS!! I think I will never even consider reading the shortstory other than in English and I've seen BBM 8 times in the theatres - ALWAYS in English and half of it with either French or French and Dutch subtitles. Since getting my DVD I have watched the first part once (up to the 2nd tent scene) and some scenes up to there repeatedly, but never the entire movie... HUNH?! It's been at least 2 months or so that I haven't seen it.. Yes.. weird. Now I don't even have my DVD, because I gave it to a colleague.

AAANYWAY! When I watched my DVD I watched it with English subtitles or none at all! In the theatre I remember trying to catch the French subtitles and some were okay, others not, but I don't remember being really shocked. But I'd have to watch it again, really.

~ j U d E

[stevenedel]

Hi Stevenedel,

The first time I read the short story in September 2005 it was in Dutch and I really regret that I didn't wait a few days longer for my English version to arrive, the Dutch made the the text corny, only when I read it again in English I started to appreciate the story. Dutch sometimes is an awful language and translating IS an art. There, I said it...

 

Quite right Mel! I didn't only find it corny, but at times unnecessarily crude.  The famous "unsatisfactory bitch of a situation"  got translated with a phrase containing not just one, but TWO uncalled-for four-letter words. (onder ons gezegd en gezwegen: "kloterige kutsituatie" - waar halen ze het vandaan??). And while I"m not quite sure what it means exactly when you're 'putting the blocks to someone', I'm pretty sure it doesn't translate with "f**k'.

Now, that it's a challenge to come up with a worthy non-English equivalent for 'stemming the rose', THAT I can understand... (yet even there the Dutch translator clearly did not exert herself a single bit to think up an alternative that at least retains some of the strange poetry of the original).

[stevenedel]

AAANYWAY! When I watched my DVD I watched it with English subtitles or none at all! In the theatre I remember trying to catch the French subtitles and some were okay, others not, but I don't remember being really shocked. But I'd have to watch it again, really.

I've never seen it with Dutch subtitles, and not wanting to is one of my reasons not to see BBM in the cinema. My DVD only has English subtitling, but now that I know all the words by heart I of course leave those switched off.

It's interesting, too, what they do with the title. Isn't it "The secret of the Mountain" in French? I find that a bit tacky, though not nearly as bad as "Two cowboys"...

[belbbmfan]

I just finished reading the Dutch translation, and thought it was thoroughly awful  . It dates from way before the film, but after the movie they turned it into the cutest little hardcover book, containing just that one story. I couldn't resist, and thought it might also clarify the last handful of words I was too lazy to look up. So now I know that "wild colombine" is what we call akelei. It wasn't worth it, because in all essentials the translation just ruined the story. Even the title: "Twee cowboys" (i.e., "Two cowboys") - geeezzzz. Nearly every memorable phrase is mutilated in some way. "I wish I knew how to quit you" becomes "Ik wou dat ik wist hoe ik van je af kon komen", which is, literally: "I wish I knew how to get rid of you". "Let be, let be" becomes "Hou op, hou op", which is "stop it, stop it". When John Twist calls Jack's plan "half-baked", the translator for some mysterious reason chooses to avoid the perfectly synonymous Dutch "halfbakken", opting instead for "achterlijk", which means "retarded". The phrase describing Lureen's voice as polite but cold is rearranged so that its entire meaning changes: in the original, there's no doubt that she is polite; in the translation, there's no doubt her voice is cold as snow. Et cetera. et cetera.

It is a pretty depressing thought that fellow Dutchmen who can't read English have to make do with this. I am convinced that a better translator could have achieved far better results, and at the same time I wonder to what extent Proulx is untranslatable. Are translations into other languages any good?

hi steven,
I guess I couldn't agree more with you. I first read the story in english, but I also bought the dutch translation. I couldn't read it through. It does Annie's poetic english absolutely no justice at all. Translating 'friend' (such a special endearing term in this story) into 'ouwe gabber' (=bloke, pal)?? Aawww, awful, terrible. (okay, I'm flemish and over here we'd never say ouwe gabber  )

But I think you're right about Annie's books (I read Postcards too) maybe being untranslatable.
I saw the movie with dutch and french subtitles but i don't pay much attention to them anyway, and having read the story, i didn't need to either.

Just imagine having to watch the movie, dubbed in another language..

btw i looooove your avatar!!

[mvansand76]

Quite right Mel! I didn't only find it corny, but at times unnecessarily crude.  The famous "unsatisfactory bitch of a situation"  got translated with a phrase containing not just one, but TWO uncalled-for four-letter words. (onder ons gezegd en gezwegen: "kloterige kutsituatie" - waar halen ze het vandaan??). And while I"m not quite sure what it means exactly when you're 'putting the blocks to someone', I'm pretty sure it doesn't translate with "f**k'.

Now, that it's a challenge to come up with a worthy non-English equivalent for 'stemming the rose', THAT I can understand... (yet even there the Dutch translator clearly did not exert herself a single bit to think up an alternative that at least retains some of the strange poetry of the original).

I think the translator wanted to translate the roughness of Annie's prose into Dutch and achieved the opposite: she made it ridiculous, maybe we should regard BBM (Twee cowboys? Aaaaargh!) as forbidden territory for translators.

I don't own the book in Dutch and I never watch the subtitles, even when I saw it in Dutch theaters. But then again, I know the dialogue by heart, so I don't really need any subtitles.

By the way, has any of you ever heard the descriptive audio reel, it's HILARIOUS!

<BRITISH ACCENT> "Jack walks toward Ennis, pauses and turns around..."

 

[stevenedel]

Translating 'friend' (such a special endearing term in this story) into 'ouwe gabber' (=bloke, pal)?? Aawww, awful, terrible. (okay, I'm flemish and over here we'd never say ouwe gabber  )

(...)

btw i looooove your avatar!!

Nobody should say (let alone be called) "ouwe gabber", ever! The Flemish are so much wiser than the Dutch, and have a much better way with our language anyway...

I'm glad you like my avatar  Here's a close-up, though the scan's a bit crooked. This guy has fascinated me ever since I came across him in Avedon's mind-blowing collection "In the American West" (which was used as a visual reference when they made BBM). His name is Richard Wheatcroft, and this portrait was taken in 1983, when he was 27 years old. He owned (probably still owns, in fact) a big ranch in the middle of nowhere on the Montana plains, but his life had been very tough even then, and didn't get any better afterwards. You hardly need to look at him twice to see that he's Ennis, to a tee.

[belbbmfan]

that guy can't be more Ennis, can he? I first saw this picture in a post by casey cornelius over on imdb. I was blown away!
Loved the picture of the waitress too, i forgot her name.

btw (bis) i loooove the screenplay you have made. that must have taken some time to compile. I have only read the first part, but it's great. should finish reading that, but there ain't never enough time, you know.

[stevenedel]

that guy can't be more Ennis, can he? I first saw this picture in a post by casey cornelius over on imdb. I was blown away!
Loved the picture of the waitress too, i forgot her name.

btw (bis) i loooove the screenplay you have made. that must have taken some time to compile. I have only read the first part, but it's great. should finish reading that, but there ain't never enough time, you know.

Glad you like it! You were just in time; by now, the site is down because I exceeded my data transfer limit 

Carol Crittendon, from Butte, Montana:

[belbbmfan]

steven,
thanks for that.
It makes you wonder if those people know they were the inspiration for the movie.

have you posted the screenplay somewhere else? I'd love to read the end. (als ik efkes tijd heb natuurlijk  )

[mvansand76]

Nobody should say (let alone be called) "ouwe gabber", ever! The Flemish are so much wiser than the Dutch, and have a much better way with our language anyway...

I'm glad you like my avatar  Here's a close-up, though the scan's a bit crooked. This guy has fascinated me ever since I came across him in Avedon's mind-blowing collection "In the American West" (which was used as a visual reference when they made BBM). His name is Richard Wheatcroft, and this portrait was taken in 1983, when he was 27 years old. He owned (probably still owns, in fact) a big ranch in the middle of nowhere on the Montana plains, but his life had been very tough even then, and didn't get any better afterwards. You hardly need to look at him twice to see that he's Ennis, to a tee.

You don't say ouwe gabber to somebody you sheepherded with in 1963, the same person you started to have sex with during that summer, and the same person you are still heart-crushingly in love with after 4 years of not seeing him.

[mvansand76]

Glad you like it! You were just in time; by now, the site is down because I exceeded my data transfer limit 

Carol Crittendon, from Butte, Montana:

Cassie!!!!

[j.U.d.E.]

I've never seen it with Dutch subtitles, and not wanting to is one of my reasons not to see BBM in the cinema. My DVD only has English subtitling, but now that I know all the words by heart I of course leave those switched off.

It's interesting, too, what they do with the title. Isn't it "The secret of the Mountain" in French? I find that a bit tacky, though not nearly as bad as "Two cowboys"...

You are right, not nearly as bad as "Two Cowboys", but I don't like the French title. On some French forum someone once wrote something about why they sometimes had to add or alter an original title when 'translating' it, but I have forgotten what that person wrote. Not sure I will find it again.

BTW, love your avatar too!!

~ j U d E

[j.U.d.E.]

Amazing!

~ j U d E

[stevenedel]

You are right, not nearly as bad as "Two Cowboys", but I don't like the French title. On some French forum someone once wrote something about why they sometimes had to add or alter an original title when 'translating' it, but I have forgotten what that person wrote. Not sure I will find it again.

BTW, love your avatar too!!

~ j U d E

  Don"t get me started on how much I love YOUR avatar. But that goes without saying, I guess...

In the case of this movietitle, translation seems unnecessary - it's the name of a place, and it's called what it's called. There are no cowboys, and there is no secret, so leave those out of it...

[stevenedel]

Amazing!

Isn't it? Though Mr. Wheatcroft's shirt closes left over right, and Ennis's right over left, so it seems. But still...

On another PC I also have an image of Wheatcroft 20 years later - aged almost beyond recognition. I found that moving, but shocking too, and it convinced me that in the movie Ennis ages a wee bit too gracefully...

[j.U.d.E.]

Don"t get me started on how much I love YOUR avatar. But that goes without saying, I guess...

   

In the case of this movietitle, translation seems unnecessary - it's the name of a place, and it's called what it's called. There are no cowboys, and there is no secret, so leave those out of it...

Exactly!!

~ j U d E

[j.U.d.E.]

Isn't it? Though Mr. Wheatcroft's shirt closes left over right, and Ennis's right over left, so it seems. But still...

   

On another PC I also have an image of Wheatcroft 20 years later - aged almost beyond recognition. I found that moving, but shocking too, and it convinced me that in the movie Ennis ages a wee bit too gracefully...

Yes, you are right! But it might have looked odd in the film to age Heath Ledger too much. Some people already criticized that the ageing of the two main characters was badly done (NOT my point of view! - as a matter of fact, I think more and more that they aged both Ennis and Jack very well!).

Can I see Mr Wheatcroft with 20 more years? Pleeze!

~ j U d E

[Jeff Wrangler]

Isn't it? Though Mr. Wheatcroft's shirt closes left over right, and Ennis's right over left, so it seems. But still...

Look at the top button of Heath's shirt. Men's shirts close left over right. I think Heath's just appears to close the other way in the photo.