Author Topic: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical  (Read 6931 times)

Offline ednbarby

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More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« on: July 21, 2006, 09:57:10 am »
OK, so I'm at a bar last night to listen to my friend Suzanne who sings in a band.  It actually was a very nice bar - big, newly refurbished, clean, lots of TVs with sports on, nice bartenders.  But I digress.  A friend of her husband comes in to listen, too, and asks if he can join me.  Nice guy, it would seem.  Friendly.  Laughs a lot.  Fairly witty.  Between sets, she and her bandmates - another girl and a guy - come over and sit with us.  We're chatting, and Suzanne says, "You wouldn't believe what it took for me to get Barb out here to see us.  I had to promise her I'd watch "Brokeback Mountain" with her next week."  Now this is partially true - it so happens she had mentioned to me in passing that she still hadn't seen it and was meaning to rent it sometime, but it would have to be when her husband is out of town because he's "out of control with his homophobia" (nice).  So I had said, "Well, you're welcome to come over and watch it with me sometime."  One thing led to another...  So, anyway, I guess she thought this would be a good conversation starter, and she's always loved a good argument, so maybe she was hoping to start one.  The other girl in her band goes, "I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard nothing but good things."  The guy in her band (and God bless him) goes, "I've seen it.  Very good movie.  They were robbed at the Oscars."  The other guy goes (cringe), "What I don't understand is how a movie about two guys who bust up their marriages and wreck their families gets so much critical acclaim.  I mean, what kind of family values is that teaching?  It's promoting adultery."

 :o

I didn't know where to start.  So I jumped in hip-deep.  I go, "Oh, God.  You're a Republican, aren't you?"  Everybody laughed, including him.  But then I said, "Lemme ask you this:  Did you see "Out of Africa?""  He goes, "Yeah."  I go, "Did you think that was Best Picture-worthy?"  He goes, "I guess, yeah."  And I go, "And you don't think that was promoting adultery?"  He goes, believe it or not, "No.  Not like that.  There were no children involved."  I go, "First of all, if you'd seen the movie, you'd know that only one of the two guys ends up getting a divorce, and even so, they don't get together as a result.  They don't get together because one of them as a child was shown the body of a gay man who was tortured and beaten to death by his father, who probably did the job.  He's been taught to hate anyone who is gay, including himself.  The other guy ends up getting beaten to death because he is gay (I said this after the band went back to do their next set, so I didn't spoil it for my friend).  You wanna tell me how that promotes adultery?"  He goes, "Well, OK.  I see your point.  But they got married based on false pretenses, right?"  I said, "You gonna tell me no straight people ever do that?  Didn't Karen in 'Out of Africa' marry entirely for convenience?"  He goes, "Yeah, but they should have just stayed single."  (Just like a Republican - leave your teethmarks in that dead argument.)  So I said, "Are you married?"  He goes, I kid you not, "Well, no.  I'm divorced and I have two young boys."  I was speechless, so I just gave him the old Jack Twist, "Hmmmmm...." looking him dead in the eye.  He laughs and goes, "Touche."

Game, set, match.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 10:00:24 am by ednbarby »
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2006, 10:50:00 am »
"Touche" is such a satisfying response to hear.  People should use it more (when talking to me).  ;)

Good work, Barb.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 05:30:43 pm by Ellemeno »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2006, 10:56:38 am »
Thanks, Clarissa.  I seriously fear for those boys, though.   :-\
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Offline fernly

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2006, 10:59:05 am »
Way to go, Barb! :D  Guess we can hope that he'll go home and mull over some new ideas, maybe let some of them sink in. And as far as your friend's husband...
One mind at a time, sometimes...

Been meaning to ask - the words under your avatar - are they original? They're so right.
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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2006, 01:01:43 pm »
OMG...CHEERS to you Barb, YOU are my new hero of the day!  :D   wonderful story, you certainly gave him something to think about.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2006, 02:36:58 pm »
Way to go, Barb! :D  Guess we can hope that he'll go home and mull over some new ideas, maybe let some of them sink in. And as far as your friend's husband...
One mind at a time, sometimes...

Been meaning to ask - the words under your avatar - are they original? They're so right.

Thanks, Lynn.  I actually think there's hope for this guy, because when I told him the bit about what Ennis' father showed him, he goes, "Geez.  That's terrible.  Bigotry  definitely starts at home."  (I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying "So when exactly did yours start?", but I digress.)  My friend's husband is another story.  And he *loved* "Crash" (which she hated, which is what leads me to believe there's hope for her).

And the quote is from Green Day's "Jesus of Suburbia," their rock operetta answer to Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" - every bit as much of a rock and roll masterpiece, I think.  Many of the lines in it ring true for our Jack-y boy, but that one rings the truest.  Here's the whole thing.  For what it's worth.

Jesus of Suburbia ~ lyrics by Billie Joe Armstrong, Green Day

I'm the son of rage and love
The Jesus of Suburbia
From the bible of 'None of the Above'
On a steady diet of soda pop and Ritalin
No one ever died for my sins in hell
As far as I can tell
At least the ones I got away with

And there's nothing wrong with me
This is how I'm supposed to be
In a land of make believe
That don't believe in me

Get my television fix sitting on my crucifix
The living room or my private womb
While the Moms and Brads are away
To fall in love and fall in debt
To alcohol and cigarettes and Mary Jane
To keep me insane and doing someone else's cocaine

And there's nothing wrong with me
This is how I'm supposed to be
In a land of make believe
That don't believe in me

[Part 2: City Of The Damned]

At the center of the Earth
In the parking lot
Of the 7-11 where I was taught
The motto was just a lie
It says home is where your heart is
But what a shame
Cause everyone's heart
Doesn't beat the same
It's beating out of time

City of the dead
At the end of another lost highway
Signs misleading to nowhere
City of the damned
Lost children with dirty faces today
No one really seems to care

I read the graffiti
In the bathroom stall
Like the holy scriptures of a shopping mall
And so it seemed to confess
It didn't say much
But it only confirmed that
The center of the earth
Is the end of the world
And I couldn't really care less

City of the dead
At the end of another lost highway
Signs misleading to nowhere
City of the damned
Lost children with dirty faces today
No one really seems to careeeeee

[Part 3: I don't care]

I don't care if you don't care
[x4]

Everyone is so full of shit
Born and raised by hypocrites
Hearts recycled but never saved
From the cradle to the grave
We are the kids of war and peace
From Anaheim to the Middle East
We are the stories and disciples
Of the Jesus of Suburbia
Land of make believe
And they don't believe in me
Land of make believe
And I don't believe
And I don't care!
I don't care! [x4]

[Part 4: Dearly beloved]

Dearly beloved are you listening?
I can't remember a word that you were saying
Are we demented or am I disturbed?
The space that's in between insane and insecure
Oh therapy, can you please fill the void?
Am I retarded or am I just overjoyed?
Nobody's perfect and I stand accused
For lack of a better word, and that's my best excuse

[Part 5: Tales of another broken home]

To live and not to breathe
Is to die In tragedy
To run, to run away
To find what you believe
And I leave behind
This hurricane of fucking lies
I lost my faith to this
This town that don't exist

So I run
I run away
To the light of masochists
And I leave behind
This hurricane of fucking lies
And I've walked this line
A million and one fucking times
But not this time

I don't feel any shame
I won't apologize

When there ain't nowhere you can go
Running away from pain
When you've been victimized
Tales from another broken home

You're leaving...
You're leaving...
You're leaving...
Ah you're leaving home...




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Offline silkncense

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2006, 09:34:01 pm »
Quote
One mind at a time, sometimes...


Fern & Barb -

How true.  And so on, and so on...
"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

Offline delalluvia

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2006, 10:24:39 pm »
He goes, "Well, OK.  I see your point.  But they got married based on false pretenses, right?"  I said, "You gonna tell me no straight people ever do that?  Didn't Karen in 'Out of Africa' marry entirely for convenience?"  He goes, "Yeah, but they should have just stayed single."  (Just like a Republican - leave your teethmarks in that dead argument.)  So I said, "Are you married?"  He goes, I kid you not, "Well, no.  I'm divorced and I have two young boys."  I was speechless, so I just gave him the old Jack Twist, "Hmmmmm...." looking him dead in the eye.  He laughs and goes, "Touche."

Game, set, match.

Bravo!!!  Well done!

At least this guy had the brains and the maturity to acknowledge your point.  As we all know from IMDb and our own personal experiences, there are plenty of other people who will quickly change the subject or stand firm on hypocritical double-standards when they finally figure out where you are going because they don't want to admit that you have a point or make perfect sense.

Offline henrypie

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2006, 10:52:45 pm »
I love Barb!
I love Barb!

Gooooooo Barb!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2006, 12:00:22 am »
Way to go Barb!  That guy clearly didn't know who he was tangling with...   Honestly, arguing with a devoted BetterMost-Brokie over such disheartening perceptions of the movie is a losing cause.
 ;)

Seriously, though.  I'm proud of you for really arguing with him and not backing down! 
 :D

That sounds like a very, very frustrating point of view he was trying to promote.  And, like others have said it sounds like you really got him to think a little bit.  It's interesting that he had formed his opinions without seeing the movie too. 
 >:(
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2006, 09:48:17 am »
I do give him credit for acknowledging that I had clearly won the argument.  A lesser Republican (is that redundant?) would never have done that.

And we actually went on to continue to discuss movies for the rest of the evening - he calls himself a movie buff - and I wowed him with my ability to name that movie in two notes.  At one point he goes, "What's that one with Sean Connery and Mark Harmon?..."  I go, "The Presidio."  Another time he goes, "What's that one guy's name who was in "The Breakfast Club" and "St. Elmo's Fire"?..."  I go, "Judd Nelson."  He goes, "Jesus.  You're Good."  At that point, Suzanne was back at the table and said, "I told ya she'd kick your ass when it comes to movies."  I'm hoping the fact that he was impressed with my knowledge (and accordingly, not put off by my lack of a life in the real world) makes him continue to think about his misconceptions about Brokeback, gay men in general, or, at the very least, makes him think twice before he postulates that lame argument again.


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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2006, 10:04:45 am »
Way to go Barb! Spreading the word, one at a time. Can I schedule a session with U and my husband??!
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2006, 01:11:04 pm »
Barb, I'm so proud of you. You seriously kicked his butt. And seriously, unless you're watching some Christian film, when are movies suppose to teach anything? At best they're suppose to make you think and question your reality. The argument that this film teaches promiscuity and breaking up of marriage is a stupid one. And I'm happy that you were there to call the guy on that. His willingness to admit his losing the point is a sign that he might actually be worth saving. You should see if you can challenge him to see the film and still hold those same opinions he has.
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Offline newyearsday

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2006, 09:42:09 pm »
Great idea Starbie,

and great job Barb. I commend you! I fear I would not fare so well, in that scenario....afraid I've lost too many arguments to my lawyer-like family members to have much confidence when it comes to that sort of thing, but you're right on with the Out of Africa references, and being a big fan of that movie, I can see myself using that same argument if I have to. Thanks for doing your majorly good brokie deed of the day.

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Offline Lynne

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2006, 10:42:43 pm »
Barb - I just wanted to chime in here with my own 'Well, done!'.  I'm very proud of you.

I think we're sisters in that one of my very big post-BBM goals is to be much more vocal and articulate about my own beliefs - to not be silent when I know wrong is being accomplished, if that makes any sense.

I know it can sometime seem like a drop in an ocean, but I think every single time we can call people on their bigotry, to maybe, maybe make them stop and think, just a little bit, it is a huge victory in the grand scheme of things.  And these things have ripples and those ripples can be very powerful.  And to manage it with grace and intelligence, that just makes it perfect!

((((Barb!!))))

Again, well done!

-Lynne
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2006, 01:04:53 am »
He goes, "Yeah, but they should have just stayed single."  (Just like a Republican - leave your teethmarks in that dead argument.)
I like that!

Offline ednbarby

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2006, 08:52:43 am »
Thanks, Shuggy, and everyone, for all those lovely unsolicited compliments.  ;)

Starbie, that's an excellent point, too, and one I wish I'd have also used.  I also find myself wishing I'd hammered the point home more (or some) that Ennis and Jack did not deliberately get married to cover their homosexuality, as he had postulated.  I did say that Ennis did not think of himself as gay and so getting married and being with women seemed like the natural course of events for him in his life.  But I wish I'd gone on to say that Jack did not marry for that reason, either - he married for money.  And how many among us, female and male, can say we haven't done or would never do that to some extent?  And I wish I'd gone on to say that I think he's applying a double-standard to gay men.  But that one spoke for itself, I guess, in his answer to my final question.  Brevity really is the soul of wit.  If only I remembered that more often.
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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2006, 02:14:04 pm »

And I wish I'd gone on to say that I think he's applying a double-standard to gay men.  But that one spoke for itself, I guess, in his answer to my final question.  Brevity really is the soul of wit. 


It's important to have these conversations, not to prove oneselft right, but truly to help someone see that there's a world beyond there assumptions, and it's a place that's richer for everyone.  As far as I can see, folks hold onto their beliefs like superstitions, believing in something that isn't objectively true because it makes them feel safer or protected somehow.  So, to simply yank that away can be destructive, which is why these conversations can be the end of relationships.

But to do what you did, which is to let someone discover the ways that their own beliefs or assumptions don't make sense, is like letting in a little light.  So much hate, intolerance, prejudice, etc., comes from deep seated fear and insecurity.  When you reveal that the object of that negativity is just another human being, with understandable and relatable feelings, experiences and emotions, it builds a bridge of potential understanding.

That's no small thing to be a part of.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2006, 02:40:37 pm »
It's important to have these conversations, not to prove oneselft right, but truly to help someone see that there's a world beyond there assumptions, and it's a place that's richer for everyone.  As far as I can see, folks hold onto their beliefs like superstitions, believing in something that isn't objectively true because it makes them feel safer or protected somehow.  So, to simply yank that away can be destructive, which is why these conversations can be the end of relationships.

But to do what you did, which is to let someone discover the ways that their own beliefs or assumptions don't make sense, is like letting in a little light.  So much hate, intolerance, prejudice, etc., comes from deep seated fear and insecurity.  When you reveal that the object of that negativity is just another human being, with understandable and relatable feelings, experiences and emotions, it builds a bridge of potential understanding.

That's no small thing to be a part of.

You're right - if I'd hammered it home too hard, it'd have just been off-putting and accomplished nothing.  And I doubt I'd have gotten to hear the much-coveted "touche," and from a self-proclaimed right-wing nut job to boot, nor heard him say at the end of the night, "I hope I see you again and we can talk movies some more."

By the way, the only other time I've ever heard someone say "touche," and it wasn't directed at me, was one day about 10 years ago when my mother-in-law and I were walking our four dogs in Columbus, Georgia around the block on a warm July morning, and this young guy comes jogging by and yells, "Dontcha think it's a little hot to be walking those dogs today?" and Ed's mom yells back, "Dontcha think it's a little hot to be running today?"

Man, I miss her.
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Offline newyearsday

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Re: More Tales of the Ignorant and the Hypocritical
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2006, 03:12:40 pm »
So much wisdom, Celeste. What a different world it would be if, even half the time, we could see the bigger perspective, and take the road of bridge-building rather than reinforcing each other's walls of defensiveness and fear.

Barb, it sounds like the light touch of your questions and look at the end gave this guy an opening rather than shutting him down. It's such a contentious topic, so filled with fear and hate for American men especially, that we sometimes have to tread lightly if we want to make positive change possible for them.
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