Author Topic: Pick Your Favorite Donuts  (Read 28430 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2009, 12:09:19 pm »
Well, now I'm completely confused.

Meanwhile, what I've always thought about that speech was that Kennedy mispronounced "ich." Isn't it more like "ick" than "ish"?


Offline southendmd

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2009, 12:15:58 pm »
Well, now I'm completely confused.

Meanwhile, what I've always thought about that speech was that Kennedy mispronounced "ich." Isn't it more like "ick" than "ish"?



Chrissi, help!

I've never really studied German, but I believe the "ch" sound is somewhere between "ck" and "sh" and difficult for Americans to properly pronounce, especially those of us from Boston. :)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2009, 12:52:52 pm »
Chrissi, help!

I've never really studied German, but I believe the "ch" sound is somewhere between "ck" and "sh" and difficult for Americans to properly pronounce, especially those of us from Boston. :)

But not for those of us from Pennsylvania.  ;D

According to the three German teachers I've had, two of whom were native speakers, "ish" is not correct. Pronounced correctly, it comes out sounding a bit like you're about to hack and spit.  ;D  In my classes we were taught to pronounce it like the "ch" in challa. (Remember, Yiddish is derived from Middle High German.)

But perhaps there is a dialect region where they pronounce it "ish."  :-\

And all my teachers insisted that Kennedy said, "I am a jelly doughtnut."  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline southendmd

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2009, 01:00:48 pm »

According to the three German teachers I've had, two of whom were native speakers, "ish" is not correct. Pronounced correctly, it comes out sounding a bit like you're about to hack and spit.  ;D  In my classes we were taught to pronounce it like the "ch" in challa. (Remember, Yiddish is derived from Middle High German.)


Just using my "ear", the German "ch", sounds like it comes from the palate and seems softer than the Yiddish "ch", which sounds more guttural, the "pharyngealated fricative".
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2009, 01:17:45 pm »
I had a year of German in high school, where we were taught to pronounce it so that it sort of rhymes with "yecchhh" (currently on view in the boxed-wine thread) or "blecchhh."


Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2009, 01:30:38 pm »
Quote
In fact, Kennedy's statement is both grammatically correct[4] and perfectly idiomatic, and would not be misunderstood in context. The indefinite article ein can be and often is omitted when speaking of an individual's profession or residence but is necessary when speaking in a figurative sense as Kennedy did. Since the president was not literally from Berlin but only declaring his solidarity with its citizens, "Ich bin Berliner" would not have been correct.


This is correct. "Ich bin Berliner" would not have been correct in this context, since it wasn't meant literally (obviously), but in a figurative way.


Quote
In fact, the opposite is true: The citizens of Berlin do refer to themselves as Berliner; what they do not refer to as Berliner are jelly doughnuts. While these are known as "Berliner" in other areas of Germany, they are simply called Pfannkuchen (pancakes) in and around Berlin.[9] Thus the merely theoretical ambiguity went unnoticed by Kennedy's audience, as it did in Germany at large. In sum, "Ich bin ein Berliner" was the appropriate way to express in German what Kennedy meant to say.[10]

This is also correct: the citizens of Berlin refer to themselves as "Berliner", but they refer to the pastry as "Pfannkuchen" (pankake).

In the rest of Germany, a Pfannkuchen is something very different (a pancake is for us the same thing as it is for you), and the jelly-filled pastry is called a "Berliner", like I already said. Citizens from Berlin are also referred to as "Berliner".

It depends on the context which "Berliner" is meant. Hence, for the Kennedy-story, both things mentioned are correct: nobody was confused about which "Berliner" Kennedy meant, everybody understood the context.
But at the same time, it really IS funny for us, and it evokes thoughts of the pastry.

So many years have gone by, I wasn't even born in 1963, but I sometimes say "Ich bin ein Berliner" with Kennedy's pronounciation, when eating a Berliner (the pastry of course ;)).

It goes even further: in German, we have also:

- Frankfurter (from Frankfurt)
- Hamburger (from Hamburg)
- Amerikaner (from the US)
- Wiener (from Wien=Vienna)

All those things refer to people coming from the respective city (or country) - but at the same time are names of food.
So, when I'm in a good mood, I can bite into a hamburger and declare with Kennedy-pronounciation: "Ich bin ein Hamburger." Everybody will understand the reference and laugh. I can even say "Ich bin ein Berliner" while biting into a Hamburger/Amerikaner/etc.

(And then there are "Pariser" (from Paris). A Pariser is a - wait for it - a condom! Yep! :laugh:)

So the Kennedy dictum is very, very famous. And funny.


I'll get back at you later with the "Ich".


Offline southendmd

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2009, 02:00:30 pm »
Thanks, Chrissi.  Meanwhile, ich bin ein Amerikaner.

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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2009, 02:13:23 pm »
Thanks, Chrissi.  Meanwhile, ich bin ein Amerikaner.



Absolutely correct! :laugh:


Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2009, 02:26:29 pm »
I only picked one, Glazed, and it was a favorite by most.   I dont eat donuts much.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Pick Your Favorite Donuts
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2009, 02:42:57 pm »
I had a year of German in high school, where we were taught to pronounce it so that it sort of rhymes with "yecchhh" (currently on view in the boxed-wine thread) or "blecchhh."

That "sounds" about right to me.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.