Author Topic: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights  (Read 9249 times)

Offline louisev

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"Outrage" - "Out" on May 8 - Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/28/outrage-documentary-activ_n_192476.html

see the trailer at the link:

Outrage," a new documentary from filmmaker Kirby Dick, takes issue with the secret lives of closeted gay politicians -- especially conservative Republicans who outwardly oppose gay rights.

The film, which premiered last week at the Tribeca Film Festival, features tell-alls from men who say they've had relationships with various Republicans, including Florida Governor Charlie Crist, Bush strategist Ken Mehlman and former Senator Larry Craig.

According to Magnolia Pictures, "Outrage" is a "searing indictment of the hypocrisy of closeted politicians with appalling gay rights voting records who actively campaign against the LGBT community they covertly belong to."

In the documentary, Dick lambastes the mainstream media for not better investigating the politicians' "hypocrisy" and double lives. He told New York magazine that the film explores "the issues surrounding closeted politicians and their hypocrisy in voting anti-gay -- and how these people have harmed millions of Americans for many years."

"Outrage" premieres May 8 in five cities, including Washington, D.C.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Ellemeno

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 10:12:18 pm »
Yikes!

Online Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 11:02:21 pm »
Charlie Crist? Really? I had no idea.  ???
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 11:10:19 pm »
Charlie Crist? Really? I had no idea.  ???

you're joking, right?  He even got engaged to a beard - I mean a woman - when the rumors got too thick in Florida recently.  But he is IMMENSELY popular.

As well as fabulous.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2009, 11:15:57 pm »
"Outrage" - "Out" on May 8 - Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/28/outrage-documentary-activ_n_192476.html

Politics at its worst. I think its a witch hunt.

First of all, Americans do NOT have  right to know which politicians are in the population of sexual minorities. That is a matter of personal choice.

Second, just because a politician votes in a way that the Gay Party disagrees with, does not mean that the politician is "hurting" sexual minorities. This "our way, or the highway" approach to politics is doing more harm than good.

Third, have any of the critics of these politicians taken a look at the other contents of the bills that were voted on?? Frequently legislators have to make difficult choices because bills are presented with both good and bad line items.  
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2009, 11:21:17 pm »
Money, fame and power trumps morality nearly every time when it comes to these politicians. While I do not think they should be outed like this, it's a shame these politicians are often so corrupted and twisted.

Not much we can do about it though, I suppose. :-\
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2009, 11:22:24 pm »
you have some actual evidence that everyone you disagree with about gay rights belongs to some thing called "The Gay Party", Milo?  It is sounding a lot like demonizing gays you disagree with by namecalling them.

I know for a fact that Larry Craig outed himself in a Minneapolis men's room by soliciting public sex, so you can't pin that on "The Gay Party" whatever that is.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 12:08:06 am »
you have some actual evidence that everyone you disagree with about gay rights belongs to some thing called "The Gay Party", Milo?  It is sounding a lot like demonizing gays you disagree with by namecalling them.

Its not everyone I disagree with. I only invoke the Gay Party when I see people who uphold/support specific disagreeable ideas and policies that are part of the Gay Party's approaches. There are plenty of people/ideas who I disagree with on equality for sexual minorities that have nothing to do with the Gay Party.   

I know for a fact that Larry Craig outed himself in a Minneapolis men's room by soliciting public sex, so you can't pin that on "The Gay Party" whatever that is.

Yep. He sure did. And without any help from anyone.

The Gay Party is a catch-all term for numerous politically active gay organizations and the people who think like them. I'm not demonizing anyone by using the phrase "Gay Party" any more than you might be demonizing people by using the term "conservatives."
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 12:14:50 am »
please dont' dissimulate here, Milo.

"Gay Party" is a term invented by your hero, Jack Malebranche, to demonize any group or individual that he finds distasteful to his own agenda in his "Androphilia" book.  To quote it without attribution as though it is a common term in widespread usage is to attempt to deceive people into thinking there is actually a political party by that name, and there isn't, and never has been.  It isn't anyone's "catch-all" and doesnt even warrant an Urban Dictionary entry.

There is no such thing as "the Gay Party" and no such coordinated agenda by spooky leftists and drag queens.  It's made up.

And if you clicked on the trailer you would see that the people in the film who are "outing" these public figures are their former lovers, tricks, and members of the general public who have seen them in situations where they either solicited public sex, bought it or contracted for it, and then insisted on secrecy after the fact.  Nobody dug through anyone's diaries for this stuff.  And Larry Craig is one of them.  They outed themselves by going out into the gay community and using people for their own gratification while simultaneously victimizing GLBT Americans by writing and supporting policies that oppressed them and prevented them from gaining their civil rights.

And exactly what is your argument against fighting  those who are preventing gays from having full civil participation in American life?
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2009, 12:49:58 am »
please dont' dissimulate here, Milo.

"Gay Party" is a term invented by your hero, Jack Malebranche, to demonize any group or individual that he finds distasteful to his own agenda in his "Androphilia" book.  To quote it without attribution as though it is a common term in widespread usage is to attempt to deceive people into thinking there is actually a political party by that name, and there isn't, and never has been.  It isn't anyone's "catch-all" and doesnt even warrant an Urban Dictionary entry.

- Malebranche coined the term, and I use it liberally. It needs no a citation. Just like any other "buzzword" that comes into the language, its starts somewhere, people start using it in general conversations a few at a time. Then eventually it enters the wider lexicon. Nothing deceptive about being one of a handful of people using a word.

- You asked me how I used the word. I told you how I use the word: which is consistent with my other explanations of the same term I have given numerous times in various threads here at Bettermost.

- Your characterization of Malebranche's use of Gay Party is dead wrong. He does NOT use it to demonize anyone. He uses it to describe a set of political ideas, and the people agree with them.

There is no such thing as "the Gay Party" and no such coordinated agenda by spooky leftists and drag queens.  It's made up.

I would not have characterized the Gay Party as "spooky leftists and drag queens." But there most certainly is a commonality of ideology and approach among the major national gay organizations; smaller local and community gay organizations; and the political positions of tons of people in the gay community and among their friends. So no...its not a formal party like the Democrats or Republicans. But it certainly is an element of the political scene in the US. It is not made up.

And if you clicked on the trailer you would see that the people in the film who are "outing" these public figures are their former lovers, tricks, and members of the general public who have seen them in situations where they either solicited public sex, bought it or contracted for it, and then insisted on secrecy after the fact.  Nobody dug through anyone's diaries for this stuff.  And Larry Craig is one of them.  They outed themselves by going out into the gay community and using people for their own gratification while simultaneously victimizing GLBT Americans by writing and supporting policies that oppressed them and prevented them from gaining their civil rights.

I don't know anything about anyone's diary, but SOMEBODY went digging to find these "former lovers, tricks, and members of the general public who have seen them in situations where they either solicited public sex, bought it or contracted for it, and then insisted on secrecy after the fact." I suspect it was the filmmakers themselves. All these witnesses didn't just get together and decide to make a movie.

And exactly what is your argument against fighting  those who are preventing gays from having full civil participation in American life?

You see louise, this illustrates how your POV and mine are so often headed in opposite directions from one another. I don't believe that this is a "fight" There are challenges that need to be overcome, but thinking of it as a "fight" is not where my head is. I look at it more like solving a very complex business problem.

I have no issues with people who contribute to the effort towards civil rights for sexual minorities UNLESS I find that their contributions are strategically flawed, tactically dysfunctional, ideologically oppositional, or just plain devoid of value. In the case of this movie, I would add that (on top of the above) it is dishonorable.

Rx
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 12:58:37 am »
I don't know anything about anyone's diary, but SOMEBODY went digging to find these "former lovers, tricks, and members of the general public who have seen them in situations where they either solicited public sex, bought it or contracted for it, and then insisted on secrecy after the fact." I suspect it was the filmmakers themselves. All these witnesses didn't just get together and decide to make a movie.

and who decided these people were credible? I could say that Milo and I are lovers all day long that doesnt' make it true. it is hearsay...and that is not proof. that is a hatchet job.


Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 01:00:45 am »
someone went looking for these guys?

No.  Someone didn't go looking for them.  They went looking for a reporter is what happened.  As in the case of Larry Craig's teenage lover, who came forward when he saw Craig on TV saying "I am NOT Gay!" and got so mad he had to tell someone.  And when he told someone in D.C. at a gay bar, they encouraged him to give an exclusive scoop to Wonkette.com, which actually broke his story.

He is on the trailer for this film, and here is the original story

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3604

So no, nobody went looking for David Phillips.  You sure are making a lot of assumptions about this film, and I have to wonder why.

And as far as "Gay party" goes, it does need attribution because the only references to something called "the Gay party" leads back to your Androphilia author, not to any concept that is in common parlance, nor is it in common usage except maybe between you and other people on a reading list for that book.

And I have to say I'm not very happy about the idea of using some private "catch all term" that designates a non existent (except to you and others who read this book) entity made up of self-identified gays and lesbians and possibly others who are hunting down closeted politicians and seeking murky political goals that you disapprove of, because that really does sound like dog-whistling against gays using new terminology.  The way the term "San Francisco" (sometimes pronounced with an audible lisp) is a dog whistle against gays.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2009, 01:24:18 am »
someone went looking for these guys?

No.  Someone didn't go looking for them.  They went looking for a reporter is what happened.

Really?? I doubt it. I think the filmmakers went looking for them. Do you actually know anything about how this film was made?? Or are you just speculating in a different direction than I am??

You sure are making a lot of assumptions about this film, and I have to wonder why.

Because the trailer makes it look like tabloid TV. So naturally I'm expecting something sensationalized and manufactured.

And as far as "Gay party" goes, it does need attribution because the only references to something called "the Gay party" leads back to your Androphilia author, not to any concept that is in common parlance, nor is it in common usage except maybe between you and other people on a reading list for that book.

Last time I checked, this was a conversation, not a scientific research abstract. People invent phrases, share unique terms (like nicknames) among small groups of people, etc. all the time. I don't have to walk around citing that my source for the word "ass-hat" is a fellow opera singer named "Jimmy" when I'm having a conversation with people. So I don't need to do it here. If you don't understand, feel free to ask me what I mean.   

And I have to say I'm not very happy about the idea of using some private "catch all term" that designates a non existent (except to you and others who read this book) entity made up of self-identified gays and lesbians and possibly others who are hunting down closeted politicians and seeking murky political goals that you disapprove of, because that really does sound like dog-whistling against gays using new terminology.  

Again, my intent is not to "dog whistle" at anyone.

Let me see if I can clarify with an example...

Back during the previous election, I was using the term "Christian Party" on a popular opera blog. I used it to describe the broader, politically-active Evangelical-types. Of course there was/is no such entity, but there do exist national, local, community, etc. organizations that share commonalities like those I used to describe the Gay Party. Nowadays, I have replaced that term with "Fundies," which I didn't coin. None of the opera singers stopped to ask me who I was talking about. And I doubt that I've confused anyone by using the term "Gay Party."

Another thing to keep in mind is that people create contractions, acronyms, nicknames, etc. as a means of linguistic economy. It helps get the point accross with fewer syllables.

The way the term "San Francisco" (sometimes pronounced with an audible lisp) is a dog whistle against gays.

Really? First I've heard of it.

Rx
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2009, 01:30:12 am »
Really?? I doubt it. I think the filmmakers went looking for them. Do you actually know anything about how this film was made?? Or are you just speculating in a different direction than I am??

Because the trailer makes it look like tabloid TV. So naturally I'm expecting something sensationalized and manufactured.

Last time I checked, this was a conversation, not a scientific research abstract. People invent phrases, share unique terms (like nicknames) among small groups of people, etc. all the time. I don't have to walk around citing that my source for the word "ass-hat" is a fellow opera singer named "Jimmy" when I'm having a conversation with people. So I don't need to do it here. If you don't understand, feel free to ask me what I mean.   

Again, my intent is not to "dog whistle" at anyone.

Let me see if I can clarify with an example...

Back during the previous election, I was using the term "Christian Party" on a popular opera blog. I used it to describe the broader, politically-active Evangelical-types. Of course there was/is no such entity, but there do exist national, local, community, etc. organizations that share commonalities like those I used to describe the Gay Party. Nowadays, I have replaced that term with "Fundies," which I didn't coin. None of the opera singers stopped to ask me who I was talking about. And I doubt that I've confused anyone by using the term "Gay Party."

Another thing to keep in mind is that people create contractions, acronyms, nicknames, etc. as a means of linguistic economy. It helps get the point accross with fewer syllables.

Really? First I've heard of it.

Rx

wow...you were on a forum where people were more interested in what you SAID rather than playing a game of 'gotcha' and 'distract with trivial crap when they dont' have anything to refute the argument with'??

that is cool. you are very lucky...

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2009, 01:30:54 am »
Really?? I doubt it. I think the filmmakers went looking for them. Do you actually know anything about how this film was made?? Or are you just speculating in a different direction than I am??

not at all speculating. I know the story of David Phillips from when it broke.  I recognized him in the trailer and I even made a link to his interview on radio for your convenience just now.  Nobody went looking for him.  He was a nobody with a story about Larry Craig and went on radio with it in November 2007.  I just follow the news.

The same thing also happened to Rev Ted Haggard - that was also a front page story when he was caught buying meth and sex from a gay hustler and then went on TV insisting that it was some one-time thing and he's not gay and the hustler, who was his regular trick got angry about Haggard lying so profusely to the public and went public himself.  As a prostitute he was under no "obligation", personally or politically, to keep Haggard's twisted lies for him.  He paid him for sex, not permanent cover.

So if you don't know anything about these guys then you're not very well read or keeping up with the news.  A lot of this stuff WAS linked in current events right here on Bettermost, too, as being items of "gay interest", as opposed to "gay party interest."
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 01:33:55 am »
I think Milo is quite well read, thank you...he just reads more than the Daily Kos and the National Enquirer...


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 01:46:40 am »
not at all speculating.

So they ALL are cases where the information was public knowledge already??

And even if ALL the cases in the movie are just revisiting issues already made public, I still disagree with the movie as a political tool, and the political assumptions it seems to make. Honestly, all lI have to go on is the trailer and the article, so I'll really have to go see it. I cannot offer too much criticism without seeing the film. I certainly wouldn't presume to criticize a book too deeply if I had not read it, so I won't make that mistake here. 

As a prostitute he was under no "obligation", personally or politically, to keep Haggard's twisted lies for him.  He paid him for sex, not permanent cover.

A prostitute?? Maybe, maybe not. In my experience, hos keep their mouths shut about their Johns. Sure plenty brag, and some will say anything for the right amount of money.

A man?? Nope. Real men would never do anything so dishonorable to each other.

Rx
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 01:51:12 am »
So if you don't know anything about these guys then you're not very well read or keeping up with the news.  A lot of this stuff WAS linked in current events right here on Bettermost, too, as being items of "gay interest", as opposed to "gay party interest."

I'm very well read on the topics I where I find value. I see little value in tabloid-style scandals whether they are celebrities, or politicians.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2009, 01:52:14 am »
So they ALL are cases where the information was public knowledge already??

And even if ALL the cases in the movie are just revisiting issues already made public, I still disagree with the movie as a political tool, and the political assumptions it seems to make. Honestly, all lI have to go on is the trailer and the article, so I'll really have to go see it. I cannot offer too much criticism without seeing the film. I certainly wouldn't presume to criticize a book too deeply if I had not read it, so I won't make that mistake here. 


two I saw in the trailer were.  I only saw the trailer, you know, the film hasn't come out.  However, two out of the four shown in the trailer is plenty to refute your snap judgement that "it's a witchhunt by the filmmakers and the Gay Party (sic)"  The information was in the public domain already and has been for at least 2 years on those cases.

And you've already condemned the thing as a witchhunt by the nonexistent Gay Party, and now you can't offer too much criticism without seeing it? ?  How much is too little I wonder?
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 01:56:29 am »
two I saw in the trailer were.  I only saw the trailer, you know, the film hasn't come out.  However, two out of the four shown in the trailer is plenty to refute your snap judgement that "it's a witchhunt by the filmmakers and the Gay Party (sic)"  The information was in the public domain already and has been for at least 2 years on those cases.

And you've already condemned the thing as a witchhunt by the nonexistent Gay Party, and now you can't offer too much criticism without seeing it? ?  How much is too little I wonder?

For anyone who they out in this movie who was NOT publicly outted before, they ARE on a witch hunt. If even 1 man's life is ruined by this film, that is one too many.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2009, 01:59:42 am »
I guess if you consider anti-gay-crusading politicians quality of life as more valuable as the lives of male escorts and prostitutes who "aren't men" then that is not a surprise.  I don't think of sex workers as less than human, personally.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2009, 02:08:12 am »
I guess if you consider anti-gay-crusading politicians quality of life as more valuable as the lives of male escorts and prostitutes who "aren't men" then that is not a surprise.  I don't think of sex workers as less than human, personally.

HUH?

now this is the most illogical thing I ever saw....

let me try to figure this one out..


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2009, 02:09:52 am »
I guess if you consider anti-gay-crusading politicians quality of life as more valuable as the lives of male escorts and prostitutes who "aren't men" then that is not a surprise.  I don't think of sex workers as less than human, personally.

- I might be willing to concede that these politicians were indeed acting against the interests of sexual minorities IF I could take a look at the legislation that the filmmaker takes issue with. I would like to assess the "damage" they have done to equality of sexual minorities for myself. Then I'll decide about them.

- You know, you really shouldn't be lecturing me about sex workers. I've been around the block. Unless you have either been one, or bought one, you really cannot challenge me on the topic. I don't think of sex workers as less than human either. But I will tell you that some sex workers are real men, and others aren't. The real men would never do what these men have done unless faced with jail time or some such coercion.


Rx
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2009, 02:10:47 am »
I guess if you consider anti-gay-crusading politicians quality of life as more valuable as the lives of male escorts and prostitutes who "aren't men" then that is not a surprise.  I don't think of sex workers as less than human, personally.

I just hope and pray for the day when the word "gay" and "homosexual" is not associated with the word "sex".

I don't like my sexual orientation automatically being connected to some kind of sex object. We are more than that. We are people too.

And we will continue to be associated with sex and sexual objects until gay people STRAIGHTEN UP, and act like the decent human beings we are meant to be.

Okay. Go ahead and fire the flames. I've said it. And I meant it. We'll never achieve any equal rights at all until we begin to act like decent humans. Aren't we decent? Let's show the rest of them! :D



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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2009, 02:18:24 am »
I just hope and pray for the day when the word "gay" and "homosexual" is not associated with the word "sex".

I don't like my sexual orientation automatically being connected to some kind of sex object. We are more than that. We are people too.

And we will continue to be associated with sex and sexual objects until gay people STRAIGHTEN UP, and act like the decent human beings we are meant to be.

Okay. Go ahead and fire the flames. I've said it. And I meant it. We'll never achieve any equal rights at all until we begin to act like decent humans. Aren't we decent? Let's show the rest of them! :D





yes you are a decent person. and no you are not all about sex.

you are about taking care of your family and honoring the memories of your ancestors....you are about loving your friends and helping them anyway you can, you are about caring for the planet and all living things on it...you are about enjoying popular culture and spending time having fun..

it is a shame that a handful of loudmouth rude people can ruin a demonstration or get the spotlight while people like you and Brad and Milo are out there every day making a real difference with the people you meet.

{{{David}}}

I am proud to call you friend.

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2009, 07:38:40 am »
Again, there is no uniform concept of decency.  And I for one have met very few gay people who weren't at least trying to find a way to be their better selves.  But I'll admit that I've never met a perfect gay person.  However, there are no perfect straight people either, even though many of them are trying.  Do you really expect gay people to be angels, David?  Will you show them how?

of course he does not. Please do not read things into his words, David is a kind and gentle person and doesn't fight, so don't. He would be first to admit he isn't perfect.

and there IS some degree of uniformity in decency standards, Gary, it used to be called the "Golden Rule" and to be honest a LOT of us could benefit by thinking about it now and again.


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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2009, 11:29:13 am »
- I might be willing to concede that these politicians were indeed acting against the interests of sexual minorities IF I could take a look at the legislation that the filmmaker takes issue with. I would like to assess the "damage" they have done to equality of sexual minorities for myself. Then I'll decide about them.

- You know, you really shouldn't be lecturing me about sex workers. I've been around the block. Unless you have either been one, or bought one, you really cannot challenge me on the topic. I don't think of sex workers as less than human either. But I will tell you that some sex workers are real men, and others aren't. The real men would never do what these men have done unless faced with jail time or some such coercion.


er no.  That isn't how it works.  I don't have to be a politician to debate politics, and I don't have to be a soldier to debate the efficacy of a war, or a sex worker to debate issues regarding prostitution.  Nobody here does.  And I was responding to your comment "they are not men", which you seem to have since revised to "not real men" because they blew the whistle on their johns.  I don't buy that.  I think they are honest gay men who felt it was wrong to keep the secrets of those who were actively damaging gay rights in America.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2009, 03:00:24 pm »
er no.  That isn't how it works.  I don't have to be a politician to debate politics, and I don't have to be a soldier to debate the efficacy of a war, or a sex worker to debate issues regarding prostitution.  Nobody here does. 

Fair enough, but you certainly do lack an intrinsic understanding of these topics unless you have intimate experience with them.

And I was responding to your comment "they are not men", which you seem to have since revised to "not real men" because they blew the whistle on their johns.  I don't buy that.  I think they are honest gay men who felt it was wrong to keep the secrets of those who were actively damaging gay rights in America.

When I said, "they're not men (or real men)" I was referring to the tattle-tales, not male prostitutes in general. And even if these guys thought that the politicians in question were "damaging" equality for sexual minorities (which I still need some more information on), there are other, more honorable ways for them to take action. Real men confront the men they have a problem with...directly. Running to the media first is an act of a class-A pussy.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2009, 04:08:06 pm »
Fair enough, but you certainly do lack an intrinsic understanding of these topics unless you have intimate experience with them.



First of all you are making huge assumptions, and second of all, I can't believe you really want to go there on a public message board.  This is waaaay off the topic of the film and its theme.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2009, 04:34:46 pm »
First of all you are making huge assumptions, and second of all, I can't believe you really want to go there on a public message board.  This is waaaay off the topic of the film and its theme.

You're right, this conversation about male prostitutes is off topic. As for the film, I think we both should go see it, and then return to discussing its merits or lack thereof.

But let me ask the Bettermost crowd here a question. Let's suppose that these politicians did indeed do intentional harm to the equality of sexual minorities. How does outing them in a film solve any problems?
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2009, 04:54:44 pm »
Again, there is no uniform concept of decency. 

Nope. But there sure are boundaries around what is considered decent and what is considered indecent. The further one goes outside those boundaries, fewer and fewer people find one's behavior decent.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2009, 07:50:02 pm »
You're right, this conversation about male prostitutes is off topic. As for the film, I think we both should go see it, and then return to discussing its merits or lack thereof.

But let me ask the Bettermost crowd here a question. Let's suppose that these politicians did indeed do intentional harm to the equality of sexual minorities. How does outing them in a film solve any problems?

Those people who care about hypocrisy in our elected officials - and their acts - will withdraw their support from him/her and s/he therefore loses the ability to do further harm.

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2009, 09:37:55 pm »
We all set our own boundaries.  We all make our own choices.  Some of us make unpopular choices.  This is true of gay people just as well as straight people.  Is there a price to be paid for making choices that are unpopular?  Of course.  But just because something is unpopular doesn't make it wrong.  Just as something that is popular, and thus wins favor, doesn't make it right.

Do I adopt the boundaries set for me by the prevailing culture in which I live?  I often times do, yes.  It is generally easier to just go along to get along.  And usually the compromises I make with my own personal sense of morality or sense of self aren't that important to me.  But I would consider breaking convention and even the law if I felt strongly about something.  I think people sometimes need to follow their own conscience and heart regardless of the possible consequences.  This is the difference between being your own person and being a bootlicker.


or the difference between someone that has people he loves and someone that is alone in the world.

You make compromises for the people you love, sometimes those compromises are TO the people and sometimes they are FOR the people you love.

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2009, 10:49:27 pm »
so if you felt it was moral to steal from a store if the clerk is rude....and the person you love doesnt'...you feel that they should accept you the way you are, even though you could wind up in jail...or else they don't really love you??


injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2009, 10:52:01 pm »
the point I am making that decency or morality doesn't exist in a vaccuum. they didn't just develop to oppress people. They come into being from a desire to coexist peacefully.

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2009, 11:18:10 pm »
Any others named besides these:
      "Outrage" - "Out" on May 8 - Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/28/outrage-documentary-activ_n_192476.html

see the trailer at the link:

Outrage," a new documentary from filmmaker Kirby Dick, takes issue with the secret lives of closeted gay politicians -- especially conservative Republicans who outwardly oppose gay rights.

The film, which premiered last week at the Tribeca Film Festival, features tell-alls from men who say they've had relationships with various Republicans, including Florida Governor Charlie Crist, Bush strategist Ken Mehlman and former Senator Larry Craig.

According to Magnolia Pictures, "Outrage" is a "searing indictment of the hypocrisy of closeted politicians with appalling gay rights voting records who actively campaign against the LGBT community they covertly belong to."

In the documentary, Dick lambastes the mainstream media for not better investigating the politicians' "hypocrisy" and double lives. He told New York magazine that the film explores "the issues surrounding closeted politicians and their hypocrisy in voting anti-gay -- and how these people have harmed millions of Americans for many years."

"Outrage" premieres May 8 in five cities, including Washington, D.C.               

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2009, 07:47:12 am »
What a person is willing to put up with is up to the individual.  

but still you are thinking only in terms of "me me me"...love thinks in terms of the other person. Stealing (as in my example) results in a loss of freedom, a loss of dreams, puts the person at risk of physical harm....if you care about someone you will try to protect that person from these things.

I am reminded of a PSA I saw a few times....a girl stands on a train track, stoned out of her mind and a train is barreling down on her, she is too stoned to notice. Her friend stands to the side watching and crying and shaking, saying "it's her choice! I can't tell her what to do!! It isn't my place to judge, is it??"

Love sees the other person needing help and reaches out a hand to pull them to safety.

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2009, 07:55:38 am »
There is value in knowing about hypocrisy I think.  There is value in knowing that no matter how hard you try to beat down gay desire, it still pops up, even among those who are fighting hardest to keep it at bay.  And there is some justice in outing someone who has used their authority to harm the gay community.  Why should these men of authority get to go on doing their damage while they secretly engage in the same activity they denounce and, in effect, escape punishment? 

you are making the assumption that every one of these prostitutes, tricks, etc are telling the truth. How does one verify this? In cases where the politician (or whoever) has already been outed, that is one thing but it comes down to he said/ HE said here. And when is that acceptable? If it were a straight man, who was virulently anti adultery, would we take the word of a random whore or would we expect some backup of some kind?

the movie hasn't been released and we dont' know what and who is being talked about really but I am suspicious of anything that has as it's proof the testimony of whores.

sorry. They dont' seem overly trustworthy...if you are willing to let someone have sex with you for money, it is also pretty durn likely you would be willing to lie for a few bucks too...

Offline delalluvia

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2009, 08:35:23 am »
Quote
For instance, if I saw a couple of my male neighbors kissing in the laundry room here at my apartment complex, I don’t think I’d out either of them.  If I knew one was married and had a family, I’d still likely stay out of it.

But the existence of a wife and family would make things a bit more murky I think.

The existence of AIDS makes it even more of murky situation.  The husband may be closeted, may be desperate to hold onto his 'normal' life, but is so out of control that he can't think of the health risks - not only to himself, but to his wife.

In that case, since it is unknown whether he is taking precautions or not, it becomes a matter of the wife's life.

A friend of my sister was living with his lover.  He was terrified of AIDS and glad that he'd found someone to settle down with.  His lover was a avid athlete, and every few days before dinner - the friend was cooking - his athletic lover would jog around the local park. 

It wasn't a secret to anyone other than the friend what his lover was doing at that park. 

My sister and her friends were in a quandry.  Tell the friend or not?

I would have dropped an anonymous note.   My sister and her friends ended up doing nothing.   

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2009, 11:32:43 am »
Maybe some of the men deserve to be outed, and maybe some of them don’t.

Sorry, but it seems to me that any politician who can be reasonably shown to be gay, or even bisexual, who actively works against gay rights, deserves to be outed.

Perhaps there could be "collateral damage," but I'm perfectly prepared to lay that at the door of the politician, not at the door of whoever outs him--or her.

Perhaps the life of a spouse and/or children might be "ruined" by the outing, and they have my sympathy, but maybe the politician should have thought about that before he or she married and had children.

(I feel essentially the same way for the family of a heterosexual politician caught patronizing prostitutes. Take the Eliot Spitzer situation for an example. I feel sorry for Mrs. Spitzer and their daughters, but the fault for "ruining" their lives lies with Spitzer, not with the media who "outed" his patronizing of a high-end hooker.)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2009, 12:06:39 pm »
Gary, that was a VERY thoughtful and intelligent answer.

Maybe some of the men deserve to be outed, and maybe some of them don’t.

How does one determine who deserves it and who doesn't?? And more to my original question, what good does it do??

If we lived in a country where there was no social price to pay for being out, then everyone would be out, even these closeted men of authority.

I disagree. There are men out there in any number of situations that would still want their homosexuality to be kept discreet. Especially those with families. Even if a wife accepts her husband's bisexuality and is comfortable with having an open marriage, they might still want to keep it under wraps to avoid questions from others about fidelity .
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2009, 12:58:14 pm »
Those people who care about hypocrisy in our elected officials - and their acts - will withdraw their support from him/her and s/he therefore loses the ability to do further harm.

I think that in some cases you are right. The offending legislator would be voted out of office because of the scandal.

But then we have to take into consideration the Marion Barry syndrome. You get caught red-handed doing drugs with a prostitute, and your constituents decide that you have done some much good as an elected official, that it out-weighs the scandal and they elect you back into office.

Another thing to consider is that regardless of any hypocrisy we might perceive, there might be people in the constituency of the legislator in question who would agree that whatever vote he made was the right choice.

Yet another possible outcome is that homophobes might look at a political outing and be affirmed by the whole thing. As if to say that being gay is so bad that the politician needed to hide it. Moreover, that gays themselves are so bad that they would throw one of their own under the bus. The lack of unity expressed via hypocritical legislation and the subsequent outing, could fuel the negative opinions of homophobes. Although I must say that I am for less concerned about this outcome.

So overall, I think that outing such a politician is only effective in some cases as a tool to remove him from public office.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2009, 01:09:19 pm »
Sorry, but it seems to me that any politician who can be reasonably shown to be gay, or even bisexual, who actively works against gay rights, deserves to be outed.

Again, why? What does the gay community get out of it? Is it simply a punitive measure? Is it a way of warning other politicians, regardless of sexual orientation, that the same fate might befall them is they cross the gay community?

(I feel essentially the same way for the family of a heterosexual politician caught patronizing prostitutes. Take the Eliot Spitzer situation for an example. I feel sorry for Mrs. Spitzer and their daughters, but the fault for "ruining" their lives lies with Spitzer, not with the media who "outed" his patronizing of a high-end hooker.)

In the case of prostitution, I'm more inclined to agree. Prostitution is a crime, and I don't believe that politicians should be allowed to get away with any crime.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2009, 07:17:35 pm »
One can be open to change and still be true to one’s self, but if a change is made then it should be an honest change, as apposed to a manipulation or a lie in order to fool someone.  Being true to yourself is not selfish, not even in the context of a relationship.  Not many want to be in a relationship with someone who isn’t honest about who they are.  And if someone does happen to want a partner who is a lap dog or a poser, then there’s something wrong with that I think

ok...but that is not what you said earlier I do not think....

We all set our own boundaries.  We all make our own choices.  Some of us make unpopular choices.  This is true of gay people just as well as straight people.  Is there a price to be paid for making choices that are unpopular?  Of course.  But just because something is unpopular doesn't make it wrong.  Just as something that is popular, and thus wins favor, doesn't make it right.

Do I adopt the boundaries set for me by the prevailing culture in which I live?  I often times do, yes.  It is generally easier to just go along to get along.  And usually the compromises I make with my own personal sense of morality or sense of self aren't that important to me.  But I would consider breaking convention and even the law if I felt strongly about something.  I think people sometimes need to follow their own conscience and heart regardless of the possible consequences.  This is the difference between being your own person and being a bootlicker.


or maybe I am reading it incorrectly?

in the second you state you will conform...for expediency...that is different from changing your basic beliefs

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2009, 07:22:13 pm »
oh yeah...I can just bet some guy is just dying to tie up his money and months of his life in a courtroom because some guy claimed to have sex with him.

so nice..

injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2009, 07:23:39 pm »
and yeah, I do consider prostitutes to be untrustworthy...especially where money is involved. If they are willing to let some guy pee on them for a fiver, I can't imagine lying thru their teeth is gonna really be that much of a leap out of their moral comfort zone...

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2009, 09:37:11 pm »

In the case of prostitution, I'm more inclined to agree. Prostitution is a crime, and I don't believe that politicians should be allowed to get away with any crime.

prostitution is not a crime everywhere.  It is legal in some parts of the US as well as some countries in Europe.  In Germany they belong to a union and have full union benefits and health care.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2009, 11:12:14 pm »
prostitution is not a crime everywhere.  It is legal in some parts of the US as well as some countries in Europe.  In Germany they belong to a union and have full union benefits and health care.

yeah...but even with all that...they are still


WHORES

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2009, 11:12:50 pm »
yeah, I AM a whoraphobe...

 :laugh: :laugh:

Offline delalluvia

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2009, 12:40:27 am »
Being a prostitute in a country where it is illegal, does not make a prostitute the best sort of witness.  Due to the criminal nature of her/his occupation and the fact that they continue in their occupation for whatever reason, clearly flouting the law, it stands to reason that many people would doubt their word out of hand seeing as they have already demonstrated an ethical/moral flexibility, a disdain for what society considers correct behavior and a willingness to put their bodies and health at risk for low monetary gain.  Why would slandering someone for money be a problem for such a person, one might imagine.

Now, prostitutes can be witnesses.  No one doubts that they can tell the truth and truly report what they saw, just like any other person.  It's just that they don't come across as credible in a court of law for all the above reasons, especially if they're also known drug/alcohol abusers.

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2009, 01:45:28 am »
prostitution is not a crime everywhere.  It is legal in some parts of the US as well as some countries in Europe.  In Germany they belong to a union and have full union benefits and health care.

In my country, prostitution is a crime. The men who take office in my country understand that legality implicitly. They have no excuse.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2009, 07:01:18 am »
In my country, prostitution is a crime. The men who take office in my country understand that legality implicitly. They have no excuse.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

so when they get horny and call up a whore, they are not confused they are in Germany?? You must have very very SMART politicians where you live...

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2009, 12:11:50 pm »
In my country, prostitution is a crime. The men who take office in my country understand that legality implicitly. They have no excuse.

not in Nevada it isn't, except in Las Vegas.  Not in Rhode Island it isn't.

In the United States, each state has the power to decide whether or not prostitution is legal in that state or part of that state. In all but two U.S. states (Nevada and Rhode Island), the buying and selling of sexual services is illegal and usually classified as a misdemeanor.

In Rhode Island (see Prostitution in Rhode Island), the act of prostitution (performing sexual activity in exchange for money) is legal because there is no law to define it and make it illegal, however operating a brothel, pimping and street prostitution are illegal. Prostitution is not regulated in any way.

In Nevada (see Prostitution in Nevada) there are legal brothels in 8 out of the 16 counties. Prostitution is prohibited by state law in counties with over 400,000 residents (only Clark County which contains Las Vegas meets this number); counties with under 400,000 residents may choose either to allow the licensing of brothels or to prohibit all forms of prostitution. Prostitution outside licensed brothels is illegal throughout the state (which means that, contrary to popular belief, prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas and its metropolitan area). Currently 4 Nevada counties and the independent city of Carson City prohibit brothels, 1 county neither permits nor forbids the licensing of brothels (and has no brothels), 3 counties allow brothels but at present have none and 8 counties have active brothels in some areas or cities.

(from Wiki)

“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2009, 12:16:33 pm »
I'm really surprised more people didn't know about prostitution being legal in most of Nevada, since there was that big right-wing media brouhaha claiming that Obama was supplying stimulus money to run a light rail system from Disneyland to the "Moonlite Bunny Ranch" brothel.

Maybe the fact that there's a Moonlite Bunny Ranch outside of Carson City - and it has no rabbits in it - eluded a few folks.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2009, 02:58:35 pm »
I'm really surprised more people didn't know about prostitution being legal in most of Nevada, since there was that big right-wing media brouhaha claiming that Obama was supplying stimulus money to run a light rail system from Disneyland to the "Moonlite Bunny Ranch" brothel.

Maybe the fact that there's a Moonlite Bunny Ranch outside of Carson City - and it has no rabbits in it - eluded a few folks.

My God, I thought everybody, at least in the U.S., knew that prostitution is legal in (at least parts of) Nevada.  :o
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2009, 03:03:38 pm »
My God, I thought everybody, at least in the U.S., knew that prostitution is legal in (at least parts of) Nevada.  :o

how could they have missed it??  I thought it was legal in Atlantic City as well, I'll have to check that.  Maybe that's just gambling.

ETA: Nope.  No legal sex for sale in Atlantic City, just the gambling.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline oilgun

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2009, 04:19:27 pm »
Hey, this movie opens May 8thStar Trek will have to wait, LOL!  Who wants to go with me? (No talking during the film and I like to sit up close, ;))

Whatever happened to truth and honesty? (like someone in the trailer says.)
Aren't THOSE some of the values that should be encouraged in the people we elect to represent us?  The men profiled in the film actively worked against gay rights yet are gay themselves.  (According to the trailer anyway.  That's all I can go on, right now.)  I think it's our duty to out them so that their hypocrisy is exposed.   The same way pothead politicos who work against the decriminalisation of pot smoking, should be outed.   There isn't much of an issue here as far as I'm concerned.  They've made their beds as the saying goes.

Besides, I doubt any of the men in the film are REALLY being outed. I don't think Kirby Dick wants to get sued.  By rich connected people, lol!  I mean, Ed Koch is one of them and he's been out for a while and was even in SHORTBUS.  Dick (hehehe as Will's Jack would say) is also the director of THIS FILM NOT YET RATED.  Another excellent film that exposes homophobia (yes it's everywhere) and  hypocrisy, this time in Hollywood's marketing department, the MPAA.

Offline oilgun

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2009, 04:30:27 pm »
and yeah, I do consider prostitutes to be untrustworthy...especially where money is involved. If they are willing to let some guy pee on them for a fiver, I can't imagine lying thru their teeth is gonna really be that much of a leap out of their moral comfort zone...

Damn whores are soooo untrustworthy & dishonest.  Unlike those pillars of society, Politicians,  bankers and CEOs... ::) 

(It just occurred to me, they are the ones pissing on those dishonest whores, lol!)


PS: Brad Pitt can give me a golden shower anytime, free of charge. ;)   :laugh:

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2009, 02:15:48 am »

PS: Brad Pitt can give me a golden shower anytime, free of charge. ;)   :laugh:


 :o

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2009, 02:16:42 am »
This is opening in SF on May 08th...

It should just be a free download off the net....and highly circulated and emailed.

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2009, 08:17:12 am »
This is opening in SF on May 08th...

It should just be a free download off the net....and highly circulated and emailed.

oh I don't doubt there will be bootleg copies everywhere.

and for the record, we know all about Las Vegas...and about the obsession to nitpick every word written (Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals). It is a transparent and boring tactic but works very effectively when you have a chorus of 'Me toos' to back you up.

fact is that in the VAST MAJORITY of the country, prostitution is not legal and no politician would have his name attached to it if they intended to run for national office.

Offline oilgun

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2009, 11:45:04 am »
oh I don't doubt there will be bootleg copies everywhere.

and for the record, we know all about Las Vegas...and about the obsession to nitpick every word written (Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals). It is a transparent and boring tactic but works very effectively when you have a chorus of 'Me toos' to back you up.
fact is that in the VAST MAJORITY of the country, prostitution is not legal and no politician would have his name attached to it if they intended to run for national office.

And of course the conservatives on this site don't do it at all.... ::)
Talk about transparent...they are the biggest offenders.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2009, 05:30:38 pm »
My God, I thought everybody, at least in the U.S., knew that prostitution is legal in (at least parts of) Nevada.  :o
I knew I knew!!! ;D
Do I get a prize????
If so will it be a booby prize? :laugh:
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Offline oilgun

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2009, 03:19:33 pm »
Booby prize, I love it!  :laugh:

I found an interview with the director Kirby Dick that is well worth reading:

Excerpt:

You criticize mainstream media for turning a blind eye to these stories. Why do you think they have been so reluctant to cover closeted politicians?
I think it’s for a number of reasons. To their credit, these politicians are very closeted, so it’s hard to get a certain level of information that they’re comfortable with. But on the other hand, if it looks like hypocrisy, there’s nothing wrong with asking the question: If you’re gay or straight, if you’re voting on these issues, particularly if you’re voting against them. Secondly, one of the reasons they don’t is they think they’re somehow protecting people’s privacy. And maybe they are, but at the expense of a very important issue in this country, and at the expense of millions of people being harmed. And then finally, I think it’s an issue of access. The media are able to do their business by maintaining close professional relationships with these politicians. If they were even to ask that question, it would be the last moment they would even have access to that politician. I mean, they should ask it anyway.


Full Interview:
HYPOCRISY ON TRIAL http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=1&id=25177


Online Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2009, 03:46:44 pm »
I knew I knew!!! ;D
Do I get a prize????
If so will it be a booby prize? :laugh:

 :laugh:

Naw, you just get a big ol' hug when I see you again.  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2009, 10:12:23 pm »
I knew I knew!!! ;D
Do I get a prize????
If so will it be a booby prize? :laugh:

now what would you do with a buncha boobies??

Offline oilgun

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2009, 12:03:45 am »
A review of the film:
http://www.afterelton.com/movie/2009/5/outrage

Excerpt: 

The structure of Outrage is simple: Starting with Senator Larry Craig (the film begins with a recording of his police interrogation following his airport bathroom arrest), the film neatly and thoroughly outs a half-dozen men whose professional efforts in promoting an anti-gay agenda are at direct odds with the fact that they secretly have sex with other men, often while maintaining marriages to women.

Using some firsthand accounts of former sexual partners, old campaign footage (to occasionally humorous effect) and commentary from gay political media watchdogs, the film makes the case for each man's homosexuality, and presents his lifetime gay rights voting record. In each instance, the disconnect is staggering.

The usual suspects are all there: Craig, Florida Governor Charlie Crist, former New York mayor Ed Koch, former New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey, former Rep. Ed Schrock, even dusty McCarthy relic Roy Cohn. Again, if you're reading this review, then you're likely no stranger to gay media, particularly gay online media (which is credited in the film as being one of the few places where these scandals are openly discussed) and none of these men is an unfamiliar candidate for speculation.

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2009, 12:18:21 am »
A review of the film:
http://www.afterelton.com/movie/2009/5/outrage

Excerpt: 

The structure of Outrage is simple: Starting with Senator Larry Craig (the film begins with a recording of his police interrogation following his airport bathroom arrest), the film neatly and thoroughly outs a half-dozen men whose professional efforts in promoting an anti-gay agenda are at direct odds with the fact that they secretly have sex with other men, often while maintaining marriages to women.

Using some firsthand accounts of former sexual partners, old campaign footage (to occasionally humorous effect) and commentary from gay political media watchdogs, the film makes the case for each man's homosexuality, and presents his lifetime gay rights voting record. In each instance, the disconnect is staggering.

The usual suspects are all there: Craig, Florida Governor Charlie Crist, former New York mayor Ed Koch, former New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey, former Rep. Ed Schrock, even dusty McCarthy relic Roy Cohn. Again, if you're reading this review, then you're likely no stranger to gay media, particularly gay online media (which is credited in the film as being one of the few places where these scandals are openly discussed) and none of these men is an unfamiliar candidate for speculation.


so, as expected, nobody in the film was forcibly outed who hasn't been covered in the media extensively already. 
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2009, 01:47:30 am »
so, as expected, nobody in the film was forcibly outed who hasn't been covered in the media extensively already. 

Well, that's some good news. But it leaves me even more baffled as to the point of making the film in the first place if this is all old news.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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injest

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2009, 06:42:05 am »
Well, that's some good news. But it leaves me even more baffled as to the point of making the film in the first place if this is all old news.

I would guess it is to set a precedent so we will accept in the future that whores and innuendo are acceptable 'proof'. This is probably more for propanganda "look what we can do to you" than for any other reason.

Offline milomorris

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2009, 08:25:21 am »
Using some firsthand accounts of former sexual partners, old campaign footage (to occasionally humorous effect) and commentary from gay political media watchdogs, the film makes the case for each man's homosexuality, and presents his lifetime gay rights voting record. In each instance, the disconnect is staggering.

The usual suspects are all there: Craig, Florida Governor Charlie Crist, former New York mayor Ed Koch, former New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey, former Rep. Ed Schrock, even dusty McCarthy relic Roy Cohn. Again, if you're reading this review, then you're likely no stranger to gay media, particularly gay online media (which is credited in the film as being one of the few places where these scandals are openly discussed) and none of these men is an unfamiliar candidate for speculation.[/i]

I'm not really sure what exactly Koch and McGreevy voted against that has this filmmaker upset with them. I remember that there was speculation about Koch's orientation back in the day, but I don't recall that he voted against anything. And McGreevy...well there was lots of political corruption simmering around him which seemed to get washed away when he came out publicly. But again, I cannot recall any votes he made that went against the interests of sexual minorities.

I'll have to see the movie to find out what the allegations are in all of these cases.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline oilgun

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2009, 09:48:35 am »
I'm not really sure what exactly Koch and McGreevy voted against that has this filmmaker upset with them. I remember that there was speculation about Koch's orientation back in the day, but I don't recall that he voted against anything. And McGreevy...well there was lots of political corruption simmering around him which seemed to get washed away when he came out publicly. But again, I cannot recall any votes he made that went against the interests of sexual minorities.

I'll have to see the movie to find out what the allegations are in all of these cases.

I think Koch was slow in recognizing the aids epidemic?  I don't recall, I just know that he basically apologized for something when he was in SHORTBUS saying something like "I did the best that I could given what we knew at the time" or something to that effect.

It seems I was right that none of the men featured are being really outed in the film, all of them have had scandals or rumours associated with them.

Offline oilgun

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2009, 09:17:43 pm »
From Indiewire.com:

“Outrage” Review Spiked for Naming Names

Kirby Dick’s new documentary, “Outrage,” continued to skirt controversy and stir debate in its opening weekend in U.S. theaters, particularly among some media circles. As the film opened, NPR trimmed its review of the film, cutting mentions of the American political figures depicted in the movie. Critic Nathan Lee subsequently removed his byline from the article in protest and lodged a comment on the NPR site, which was also quickly removed by NPR executives.

This came amidst a simmering debate about Dick’s decision to pursue and name politicians believed to be closeted homosexuals in the film, specifically those whose public voting record counters the civil rights of gay and lesbian Americans. And it seems to support charges by Dick, made in the film, that the mainstream media has a history of handling stories of politicians same-sex orientations with kid gloves.

Continues...
http://www.indiewire.com/article/outrage_review_spiked_for_naming_names/

Offline louisev

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2009, 09:50:10 pm »
wow, now the media "coverage" or lack thereof, is becoming the meta-story of this film!  Veeery interesting!
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline oilgun

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Re: "Outrage" - Documentary Outs Gay Politicians Who Fight Gay Rights
« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2009, 10:23:37 pm »
NPR's Terry Gross Speaks Out  

Gay bloggers were up in arms when NPR's Terry Gross refused to air the names of alleged closeted politicians in an interview with Outrage director Kirby Dick. Now, Gross is speaking out.
By Andrew Harmon
An Advocate.com exclusive posted May 14, 2009

Terry Gross, persona non grata?

An unlikely turn of events, to be sure. But last week, the longtime host of National Public Radio’s Fresh Air drew the ire of the gay blogosphere when she refused to air the names of alleged closeted politicians in an interview with Outrage director Kirby Dick. In an interview with The Advocate, Gross speaks about her decision, her track record on covering gay issues, and the politics of outing.

Advocate.com: Talk to us about the decision to omit names in your interview with Dick.
Terry Gross: When the subject of Outrage came up [during a production meeting], one of our producers had seen it described in detail, and we agreed that we wanted to do something on the film because it raises interesting questions. But that put us in a position where we had to ask ourselves: Do we want to participate in an outing when we honestly didn’t know if it was true? So the way I decided to conduct the interview with Kirby was this: Here’s your case for outing. Here’s why you think it’s important, and why the mainstream media has ignored it. And then here’s why I’m personally uncomfortable going any further. I believe I put my cards out on the table. You can judge me, and you can judge our editorial policy.
[/color]

Continues...http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid84096.asp