Author Topic: Annie Proulx's still pissed...  (Read 79905 times)

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« on: May 04, 2009, 09:40:13 pm »
http://www.theparisreview.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/5901


Annie Proulx in The Paris Review

 INTERVIEWER: You’ve said that the characters of Jack and Ennis from Brokeback Mountain were the first two characters that started to feel “very damn real” to you. Has it happened again since then?

PROULX: That was true of a number of the characters in Fine Just the Way It Is. But I think it happened with Brokeback Mountain because it took me so long to write that story. It took at least six weeks of steady work, which is not my usual pace. So yeah, they got a life of their own. And unfortunately, they got a life of their own for too many other people too.

INTERVIEWER: What do you mean?

PROULX: I wish I’d never written the story. It’s just been the cause of hassle and problems and irritation since the film came out. Before the film it was all right. 
 

 INTERVIEWER: Did people object to the fact that gay characters were in the center of a story about Wyoming?

PROULX: Oh, yeah. In Wyoming they won’t read it. A large section of the population is still outraged. But that’s not where the problem was. I’m used to that response from people here, who generally do not like the way I write. But the problem has come since the film. So many people have completely misunderstood the story. I think it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience, but unfortunately the audience that Brokeback reached most strongly have powerful fantasy lives. And one of the reasons we keep the gates locked here is that a lot of men have decided that the story should have had a happy ending. They can’t bear the way it ends—they just can’t stand it. So they rewrite the story, including all kinds of boyfriends and new lovers and so forth after Jack is killed. And it just drives me wild. They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality. They just don’t get it. I can’t tell you how many of these things have been sent to me as though they’re expecting me to say, oh great, if only I’d had the sense to write it that way. And they all begin the same way—I’m not gay, but . . . The implication is that because they’re men they understand much better than I how these people would have behaved. And maybe they do. But that’s not the story I wrote. Those are not their characters. The characters belong to me by law.

INTERVIEWER: Did you get the same sort of reaction to your characters when The Shipping News was made into a film?

PROULX: No, I haven’t had the same sort of problem with anything else I’ve ever written. Nothing else. People saw it as a story about two cowboys. It was never about two cowboys. You know you have to have characters to hang the story on but I guess they were too real. A lot of people have adopted them and put their names on their license plates. Sometimes the cart gets away from the horse—the characters outgrew the intent.



Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 09:40:53 pm »
I personally think she's over-reacting a little bit.  When you write a story and leave it open ended like that, and you intend it to be "left open to interpretation", then that is what you get and that's what you should expect.  And that is what happened.  Some folks took their interpretation of it and expanded on it.  Nothing wrong with that.  In fact, I think she should feel honored that her characters touched and inspired so many people.

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 09:58:29 pm »
It might be true to her character to be disgruntled about triggering the imaginations of a generation of gay readers, but it isn't very charitable.  It would seem she cares more about herself than she does about the issues she writes about.  Or something.  Her description that the story appealed to 'those with powerful fantasy lives' - maybe she doesn't appreciate that most closeted gay men have to have powerful fantasy lives since their civil rights are so fiercely curtailed and that they are helping themselves come out of isolation by interacting with the characters she has created.
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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 10:04:06 pm »
I don't think she's over-reacting at all.

I don't see her story as open ended.  It's pretty clear cut, Jack is dead.

I don't knock any slash authors or fans....but I've read so many different directions the story went under, and the characters are legally owned by Annie.

She has the right to say what she feels about her creation.

I can't believe that people would send her their versions of her characters......that's really odd to me.  And when you add to it that most people came to know the characters from the movie, not her story, I'm sure she's annoyed by that as well.


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Offline Lynne

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 10:14:57 pm »
I don't think she's over-reacting at all.

I don't see her story as open ended.  It's pretty clear cut, Jack is dead.

I don't knock any slash authors or fans....but I've read so many different directions the story went under, and the characters are legally owned by Annie.

She has the right to say what she feels about her creation.

I can't believe that people would send her their versions of her characters......that's really odd to me.  And when you add to it that most people came to know the characters from the movie, not her story, I'm sure she's annoyed by that as well.

I agree, Chuck.  And I would further say that I think there's somewhat more ambiguity in the film compared to the short story - that was McMurtry and Ossana and Ang Lee's vision.  It works, but I couldn't say whether it works better than the short story version.  They're hard to compare, and I read the short story first, so I'm partial to it.
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injest

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 10:20:19 pm »
it is interesting to me that she says it is MEN that are sending her stuff...it is my perception that the fan fic community has as many women as men if not more. Is Proulx assuming it is only men sending her stuff or is it in fact only men?

Offline Lynne

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 10:25:03 pm »
it is interesting to me that she says it is MEN that are sending her stuff...it is my perception that the fan fic community has as many women as men if not more. Is Proulx assuming it is only men sending her stuff or is it in fact only men?

That is interesting, Jess...I would say our experience here has been that women write more fan fiction than men.  I don't know why men would disproportionately send her their stories?

For that matter, I don't know why anyone would send her much besides thank you notes and maybe birthday cards.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 10:30:04 pm »
I don't think she's over-reacting at all.

I don't see her story as open ended.  It's pretty clear cut, Jack is dead.

I don't knock any slash authors or fans....but I've read so many different directions the story went under, and the characters are legally owned by Annie.

She has the right to say what she feels about her creation.

I can't believe that people would send her their versions of her characters......that's really odd to me.  And when you add to it that most people came to know the characters from the movie, not her story, I'm sure she's annoyed by that as well.

I agree, Chuck. I don't think she's overreacting either. In the section Eric quoted, I think this is the heart of her complaint:

Quote
I think it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience, but unfortunately the audience that Brokeback reached most strongly have powerful fantasy lives. And one of the reasons we keep the gates locked here is that a lot of men have decided that the story should have had a happy ending. They can’t bear the way it ends—they just can’t stand it. So they rewrite the story, including all kinds of boyfriends and new lovers and so forth after Jack is killed. And it just drives me wild.

While Louise may have a point that Annie could be a little more charitable toward some of these people, that's not who she is. She's a plainspoken, forthright person who feels no call to be all Mary Poppinsy toward these people. So she isn't.

She's probably not costing herself any future readers, either. If I were a betting man, I'd bet these people haven't read anything else she's written, and probably wouldn't have read anything else she's written or will write--even if she didn't turn the dogs onto them.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline southendmd

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 10:40:25 pm »
This interview is a rehash of her earlier "pornish rewrites" rant. 

Anyone who's read Annie knows she's not big on happy endings.  However, having written the story, with all its ambiguity, and the nerve she struck in so many people, she'll just have to get used to the fact that, although she "owns" the characters, Jack and Ennis now belong to the world. 

It's bigger than her.  Of course people get that it's about homophobia.  It just doesn't end there.  It's a springboard for all kinds of things. 

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 10:55:28 pm »
I don't think she's over-reacting at all.

I don't see her story as open ended.  It's pretty clear cut, Jack is dead.

I don't knock any slash authors or fans....but I've read so many different directions the story went under, and the characters are legally owned by Annie.

She has the right to say what she feels about her creation.

I can't believe that people would send her their versions of her characters......that's really odd to me.  And when you add to it that most people came to know the characters from the movie, not her story, I'm sure she's annoyed by that as well.

I totally agree with you Chuck. Well said! :D

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 11:01:27 pm »
This interview is a rehash of her earlier "pornish rewrites" rant. 

Anyone who's read Annie knows she's not big on happy endings.  However, having written the story, with all its ambiguity, and the nerve she struck in so many people, she'll just have to get used to the fact that, although she "owns" the characters, Jack and Ennis now belong to the world. 

It's bigger than her.  Of course people get that it's about homophobia.  It just doesn't end there.  It's a springboard for all kinds of things. 

Heya Paul,

I agree with your perspective here.  This little bit of interview makes Annie almost seem short-sighted about what BBM can mean or what J & E mean.  She may own the copyright to the short story, but it's very true that she can't expect to control how the story or characters impact readers or other aspects of culture. 

No artist or writer can reasonably expect their art or story to be contained within a sealed bubble.  Once it's sent out in the world it's out there, and you can't dictate how folks will react or respond, especially when it comes to a popular story read or seen my millions of people.

I think these interviews by Annie are really, really unfortunate.

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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 11:08:46 pm »
If she didn't want it interpreted in different "fantasy" ways, she shouldn't have left those "open spaces" then...

injest

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 11:11:01 pm »
no matter HOW anyone feels about the characters in a story, if a writer says she is not interested in seeing fan fic, that should be respected. No one has a write to harass someone to the point they feel they have to live behind a fence.

she isn't trying to keep anyone from writing it..she just doesnt want to be bothered.

Offline Lynne

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 11:15:37 pm »
If she didn't want it interpreted in different "fantasy" ways, she shouldn't have left those "open spaces" then...

Respectfully, I really don't think she did, Eric.  I have the short story handy next to the bed, of course... ::)

"So now he [Ennis] knew it had been the tire iron."

In the short story, I find Ennis a reliable narrator.  I would guess that in Annie's opinion, this one sentence should settle it.

Edit:

And in the sentence about 'open spaces' - the space is "between what he [again Ennis] knew and what he tried to believe".  The use of the word 'tried' makes me think that Ennis sees Jack's fate as murder, although he tries hard not to.  This doesn't come through quite the same way in the film.
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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 11:22:17 pm »
I don't think this is just about fan fic.  (And nobody put a gun to her head and said "read this pornish rewrite" BTW...)

It's about how her audience interpreted the story in their own ways.  She deliberately left "open space" in the story for it to be interpreted by the reader.  And now she's upset with some of the interpretations.  Why should they bother her?  Yes, the reader got initially what the story was about.  They read her work.  IMO, she should be grateful for that.  

But because a few folks took their interpretations a few steps further than how she would have, she now condems everybody and the whole story and wishes she never wrote it?  Oh come on, what a temper tantram fit for a bitchy drama queen!!

I actually feel kind of insulted by her.  She first gave us this gift of a movie that touched us all (in many different ways, as she intended it to with her "open spaces") and now she wants to take it all back from us?  I used to have respect for her, but now I think I just wanna bitch slap her...  OMG lady, let it go...

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2009, 11:23:55 pm »
Respectfully, I really don't think she did, Eric.  I have the short story handy next to the bed, of course... ::)

"So now he [Ennis] knew it had been the tire iron."

In the short story, I find Ennis a reliable narrator.  I would guess that in Annie's opinion, this one sentence should settle it.

Edit:

And in the sentence about 'open spaces' - the space is "between what he [again Ennis] knew and what he tried to believe".  The use of the word 'tried' makes me think that Ennis sees Jack's fate as murder, although he tries hard not to.  This doesn't come through quite the same way in the film.


Oh come on Lynne.  It's written as an open-narrative.  Everybody has a different reaction to it all.  You have to admit that... we could go on and on and on debating what this meant or what that meant, but we've already done that.  Thus, you have to admit there is definitely lots of "open space" here for interpretation!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2009, 11:26:31 pm »
Something interesting to consider... the film is already a form of fanfiction.  Any element in the movie that wasn't in the short story (the lives of the women, any added details, details that were removed, etc.) were written by other writers and were made up by other artists.

If she felt so strongly about the manipulation of her story, I wonder why she consented to having the film made to begin with?  If this was really a matter of principle, she should have put a stop to the films of both BBM and The Shipping News.  Did she want the publicity?  Did she want money?

I think it's singularly boring of her to try to all of a sudden assert some kind of definitive meaning on BBM in these bitter interviews.  It diminishes the story for her to even try to do that.  The open spaces idea is so elegent... and just because some fanfic writers go over-board with it doesn't mean that the original concept should be diminished.  Also, as many of us know there are lots of fanfic stories that deal with issues contained within the original BBM wiith a subtlty and nuance that Annie clearly wouldn't expect.

These cranky interviews by Annie make me really angry at her, and they go a long way towards a strong urge of mine not to read any more of her writing.  


Also, now having read a lot of Larry McMurtry's writing with a comparison to BBM in mind... it's amazing to me just how strong McMurtry's voice is in the screenplay.  He was not a passive participant in writing the film.



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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2009, 11:30:13 pm »
I completely agree with Amanda...

Offline southendmd

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2009, 11:31:28 pm »
Respectfully, I really don't think she did, Eric.  I have the short story handy next to the bed, of course... ::)

"So now he [Ennis] knew it had been the tire iron."

In the short story, I find Ennis a reliable narrator.  I would guess that in Annie's opinion, this one sentence should settle it.

Edit:

And in the sentence about 'open spaces' - the space is "between what he [again Ennis] knew and what he tried to believe".  The use of the word 'tried' makes me think that Ennis sees Jack's fate as murder, although he tries hard not to.  This doesn't come through quite the same way in the film.

I have to respectfully disagree here.  Ennis isn't the narrator at all.  The ambiguity is even on a higher level; i.e. how do we know what we know?  In this case, Ennis is reacting to OMT's comment about Jack's ranch neighbor coming up with him.  I think he's reacting to the shock of Jack's being with another man, and/or the fact that OMT knows about it.  Ennis's natural reaction has got to be violence.  

There's plenty of open space.

****

As to the fanfic, whatever happened to Annie's statement about "finishing the story..."?  If she didn't like how some people finished it, she could very well keep it to herself.  Hell, I get plenty of unsolicited junk mail every day.  If she considered it junk, she could simply toss it out with the recycling.  

Her whining is not becoming.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2009, 11:31:43 pm »
no matter HOW anyone feels about the characters in a story, if a writer says she is not interested in seeing fan fic, that should be respected. No one has a write to harass someone to the point they feel they have to live behind a fence.

she isn't trying to keep anyone from writing it..she just doesnt want to be bothered.
\

Why isn't this an issue of Proulx's intellectual property rights being violated by the authors of FanFic  based on her copyrighted characters?

Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2009, 11:32:22 pm »
Well, I have never been an admirer of Annie Proulx.........in fact I would never have ever heard of her if it wasn't for BBM.

I agree that she has written one of the most poignant stories ever written, which in turn was transformed into one of the most fascinating and mind renching films ever produced.

She underestimates the feelings and intelligence of the people who are still mesmerised by her story. She underestimates people have changed their lives because of it.

Sure.....she wrote the words of BBM, but she did not write the words of all the stories of the people affected by it.

I wonder if she has ever looked past her own ego or her own publicity, to really take a look at what that story has done for people.

Whether she likes it or not, Jack and Ennis have become real people to some of us. Its a bit like Santa Clause, it makes us feel good to believe in them.

Whether she likes it or not, she is always going to be questioned and asked about BBM.

Whether she likes it or not, she is always going to be known more for BBM than any other book she writes.



I have no doubt she must get sick of fan fiction being sent to her, but she must have a rubbish bin,she should use it.
Expressing her views about it publicly will do nothing for her career or her popularity.

Her interview is initially about the shit that is sent to her, but it also seems to be condemning all of us who have taken the characters into our hearts.

She says she "owns those characters".....I think she lost that right of ownership when she gave it to Ang Lee, McMurtry,Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal who put the face and emotions to the characters.

To say that "people think it is about two cowboys", also shows her lack of knowledge of those of us who obsess over the movie, or even write fan fiction about the story.....I am sure we are all fully aware of what the story is about.

Somebody should tell her not to bite the hand that feeds her, and if she is gonna do it, do it privately.

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2009, 11:37:00 pm »
Katie, I agree.  Thanks for that good post.  I'm sitting her almost shaking in anger at this interview.


She says she "owns those characters".....I think she lost that right of ownership when she gave it to Ang Lee, McMurtry,Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal who put the face and emotions to the characters.

This is exactly what I meant earlier when I posted that the film is a form of "fanfic"... written by two other writers and embellished in all kinds of ways with new characters, details, etc. 

And, yes, everyone who worked on the film contributed to creating the interpretation of BBM that we see in the movie.  I mean, Ennis is one of the primary features of Heath Ledger's legacy... I can't understand why she could be so bitter about the film regardless of what some fanfic writers might have done to annoy her.  There will always be overly excited fans about anything that becomes popular in the culture at large.



I completely agree with Amanda...

Thank you Eric.   :-*

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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2009, 11:38:20 pm »

Sure.....she wrote the words of BBM, but she did not write the words of all the stories of the people affected by it.

I wonder if she has ever looked past her own ego or her own publicity, to really take a look at what that story has done for people.



BRAVO!!  WELL SAID!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2009, 11:44:07 pm »
I suspect that some of this interview was taken out of context, edited, and/or misinterpreted by people who may not have English as their first language. Some of the things they have AP saying do not ring true for me, such as when she says she wishes she had never written the story, and then that there was no problem until the movie came out.

I also theorize that Annie may have a bit of a chip on her shoulder. A sidebar in the New Yorker version of the story says that she started her fiction writing career by writing for men's magazines like Argosy, etc., under   the pseudonym E. A. Proulx. She didn't "come out" as a woman in her writings until Close Range. She endured editors and readers who were misogynistic.

I've seen letters AP has written to men who have started up a correspondence with her and they have all been extremely gracious. THere are those who revere her and look to her for motherly guidance. The female fans probably don't write her as often, aren't as needy, and don't have the same desire to "correct" her vision of Ennis and Jack.

She could very easily instruct her publisher, agent and lawyers not to forward these letters, and she could very easily ignore them or at the very least not answer them. Why she doesn't do that puzzles me. There must be at least a few that are compelling. Maybe she should have them forwarded to the Matthew Shepard Foundation.
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injest

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2009, 11:56:59 pm »
so nice to see the gratitude and love...

how dare this woman not be a perfect saint!! How dare she not get on her knees and appreciate the largesse bestowed upon her! The ungrateful wretch!

I for one appreciate her sharing her gift with us, and if she wishes to be left alone about it, then that is enough for me. She owes me nothing.

I on the other hand owe her gratitude for giving me Jack and Ennis.

Offline southendmd

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2009, 11:59:46 pm »
I believe The Paris Review is based in New York.  And, the original interview with similar themes about "pornish rewrites" was in the Wall Street Journal.  

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122065020058105139.html


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2009, 12:02:15 am »
so nice to see the gratitude and love...

how dare this woman not be a perfect saint!! How dare she not get on her knees and appreciate the largesse bestowed upon her! The ungrateful wretch!

I for one appreciate her sharing her gift with us, and if she wishes to be left alone about it, then that is enough for me. She owes me nothing.

I on the other hand owe her gratitude for giving me Jack and Ennis.

agreed, and I am amazed that Proulx has had the forebearance to NOT pursue copyright infringments on FanFic writers who are using her copyrighted characters.

maybe its time to leave AP alone, wish her well,  and hope that her creativity will produce more works of brilliiant fiction.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2009, 12:15:25 am »

This is about more than just fanfic.  It seems to be about Proulx disavowing BBM as a movie and even as a story too.  I think that trying to all of a sudden rigidly define what BBM is about almost ruins the poetry of the open-endedness of BBM.

Everyone understands that she holds the copyright.  But, I'll ask again, if she didn't want her story to be manipulated why did she allow it to be turned into a movie..  writen by other people, with new characters invented, details invented, things happening that never happened in the story?  She let it happen to The Shipping News too.  And, I'll also just re-iterate that Larry McMurtry's voice as a writer is there loud and clear in the screenplay... so again, she wasn't always so upset with the idea of other writers co-opting and re-working her story.

What she says in the interview quoted in the first post seems amazingly short-sighted.  It's hard for me to believe that she could say some of the things she said in the interview.  I always thought of her as more nuanced than that.  I hope Lee's right that the interview is somehow taken out of context.
 :-\



 

 
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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2009, 12:18:50 am »
I don't think it was taken out of context at all.  I truly believe she said what she's quoted as saying.  It sounds exactly like her "pornish rewrites" rant...

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2009, 12:23:53 am »
This is about more than just fanfic.  It seems to be about Proulx disavowing BBM as a movie and even as a story too.  I think that trying to all of a sudden rigidly define what BBM is about almost ruins the poetry of the open-endedness of BBM.

Everyone understands that she holds the copyright.  But, I'll ask again, if she didn't want her story to be manipulated why did she allow it to be turned into a movie..  writen by other people, with new characters invented, details invented, things happening that never happened in the story?  She let it happen to The Shipping News too.  And, I'll also just re-iterate that Larry McMurtry's voice as a writer is there loud and clear in the screenplay... so again, she wasn't always so upset with the idea of other writers co-opting and re-working her story.

What she says in the interview quoted in the first post seems amazingly short-sighted.  It's hard for me to believe that she could say some of the things she said in the interview.  I always thought of her as more nuanced than that.  I hope Lee's right that the interview is somehow taken out of context.
 :-\


I am not privy to her agreement with McMurtry / Ossana, but I assume their were restrictions and conditions on what they could and couldn't do with her intellectual property. The "Violence to Property" clauses found in many such agreements between authors and screenwriters or production companies comes to mind.

I am not aware that she is specifically complaining about the departures from her SS by the screenplay or the film, but by the seemingly open ended quest by fandom to continue to alter her story. Frankly, I am sympathetic to her, some of the FanFic I have read goes way beyond staying within the spirit of Brokeback Mountain.

Ennis and Jack as murdering vampires? When I saw that story posted on Bettermost, I felt that was reached way over the limit.

I can only imagine the constant letters, emails, communications she receives from, shall we say, obsessive fans.

Offline twistedude

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2009, 12:50:23 am »
anybody posting here who thinks they have never been a fan of Annie Proulx is A blasted idiot!

There are those (me)who saw the movie many, many times, but never cried till they heard the story read aloud.

By the way, "Tits Up in a Ditch" is a great story, too.

And, technically, we could all be sued--those of us who have written fanfiction--because as soon as you set pen to paper (or type a key) what you say is copyrighted.

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2009, 01:19:29 am »
Well, I have never been an admirer of Annie Proulx.........in fact I would never have ever heard of her if it wasn't for BBM.

I agree that she has written one of the most poignant stories ever written, which in turn was transformed into one of the most fascinating and mind renching films ever produced.

She underestimates the feelings and intelligence of the people who are still mesmerised by her story. She underestimates people have changed their lives because of it.

Sure.....she wrote the words of BBM, but she did not write the words of all the stories of the people affected by it.

I wonder if she has ever looked past her own ego or her own publicity, to really take a look at what that story has done for people.

Whether she likes it or not, Jack and Ennis have become real people to some of us. Its a bit like Santa Clause, it makes us feel good to believe in them.

Whether she likes it or not, she is always going to be questioned and asked about BBM.

Whether she likes it or not, she is always going to be known more for BBM than any other book she writes.



I have no doubt she must get sick of fan fiction being sent to her, but she must have a rubbish bin,she should use it.
Expressing her views about it publicly will do nothing for her career or her popularity.

Her interview is initially about the shit that is sent to her, but it also seems to be condemning all of us who have taken the characters into our hearts.

She says she "owns those characters".....I think she lost that right of ownership when she gave it to Ang Lee, McMurtry,Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal who put the face and emotions to the characters.

To say that "people think it is about two cowboys", also shows her lack of knowledge of those of us who obsess over the movie, or even write fan fiction about the story.....I am sure we are all fully aware of what the story is about.

Somebody should tell her not to bite the hand that feeds her, and if she is gonna do it, do it privately.

She doesn't enjoy the attention BBM the film has received that's for sure. I wonder if it is in part because BBM has eclipsed the rest of her oeuvre. I wouldn't be surprised to find out she receives voluminous amounts of fan mail, questions and fan-fic's in regards to BBM, but comparatively precious little for the rest of her works. I think sometimes an artist creates something, the cultural impact of which, the artist could not have anticipated. She created a Classical Tragedy in modern form at the right time. As a Tragedy, it produced the experience of Catharsis, which for those who have never gone through it, is bewildering. BBM became a cultural phenomenon which no one could have foreseen. She has moved on emotionally from the story and characters, but so many others have not, and that must get pretty tiresome for her.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2009, 03:51:30 am »
Just think how we would feel if Heath or Jake had said something similar about BBM.

That interview was more than about copyright, and Im sure if she could take legal action against fan fic writers, she would have done it by now.

The movie, in my opinion was a long way off the original story, with things added and things changed, and really, lets face it, the movie is far far bigger than her written story......we didn't see forums started like this one, about the story in the paper, how many of us would be Brokies because of the story alone? How many of us, only bought the book, because of the movie?

I think Annie Proloux has a higher opinion of herself than a lot of others do.

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Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2009, 04:20:32 am »


The movie, in my opinion was a long way off the original story, with things added and things changed, and really, lets face it, the movie is far far bigger than her written story......we didn't see forums started like this one, about the story in the paper, how many of us would be Brokies because of the story alone?

I think that has to do more with the medium than quality. One is a short story, and the other a movie that received a lot of attention from press etc. Movies most often get more attention than the novels they are based on.

Offline Kelda

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2009, 04:28:38 am »
I'm defintely in the middle camp here - I can see why people think she has a right to moan about it, but also I feel annoyed for her for being so horrible & whiney in the way she has come across in this interview. Like folk have said - what did she expect? And she can easily throw those stories out and have nothing to do with them. Noone makes her read them.

Like Paul said whatever happened to Annie's statement about "finishing the story..."?

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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2009, 11:04:32 am »
I wonder what her reaction would have been if she'd had let Gus Van Sant do Brokeback Mountain a la "My Own Private Idaho" style...  I bet her head would have spun around when she saw the finished product.  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2009, 11:29:39 am »
I wonder what her reaction would have been if she'd had let Gus Van Sant do Brokeback Mountain a la "My Own Private Idaho" style...  I bet her head would have spun around when she saw the finished product.  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

 :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Imagine someone like Keanu Reeves as Ennis. ...  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Like Paul said whatever happened to Annie's statement about "finishing the story..."?

Well, but "finishing the story" is one thing. Telling an author he or she should have written an entirely different story than he or she wrote is quite something else.

As Annie essentially says, she didn't set out to write a story about two gay cowboys in love. She set out to write a story about homophobia.

I think it's interesting that she seems in particular to single out the "moving-on Ennis" genre of fanfiction for her authorial indignation.  :-\

It's about how her audience interpreted the story in their own ways.  She deliberately left "open space" in the story for it to be interpreted by the reader.  And now she's upset with some of the interpretations.  Why should they bother her?  Yes, the reader got initially what the story was about.  They read her work.  IMO, she should be grateful for that.  

But because a few folks took their interpretations a few steps further than how she would have, she now condems everybody and the whole story and wishes she never wrote it?  Oh come on, what a temper tantram fit for a bitchy drama queen!!

I actually feel kind of insulted by her.  She first gave us this gift of a movie that touched us all (in many different ways, as she intended it to with her "open spaces") and now she wants to take it all back from us?  I used to have respect for her, but now I think I just wanna bitch slap her...  OMG lady, let it go...

I don't think she's complaining about people "interpreting" her story; I think she's complaining about people more or less telling her that she got her own story "wrong," that she should have created an entirely different work of art than she did (that is, she should have written a story with a happy ending). And telling this to a writer who is a Pullitzer Prize winner. ...  ::)

And I think you misspoke yourself, Eric. I'm sure you meant to say that Annie Proulx gave us a story. Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana, and Ang Lee gave us a movie.

If anybody has any doubts, my sympathies are entirely wtih Annie. I could wish she were a little less cranky about this, but she is who she is.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 01:40:19 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2009, 12:10:16 pm »
"Sometimes the cart gets away from the horse—the characters outgrew the intent. "

Yes, Ms. Proulx, they do. I think that is exactly what happened here. The film uses the tag line "...a force of nature". That is how I see it. We all have our expectations and feelings on Jack and Ennis, and certainly being the one who gave life to them she should be first in line to voice hers.

The truth is, they have trancended these expectations, they have crossed over into the world of folk figure. Paul Bunyan started with someone telling a story, Jack and the Beanstalk did too, and they were expanded upon time and again by different tellers, giving their spin on things. The story of Jack and Ennis is no different. I tend to think she should feel honored that her characters would achieve such status, but she is her own person, filtering things thru her own experences and prejudices and I don't befund her for what she is feeling. I probably would feel the same.

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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2009, 12:11:35 pm »
This interview is a rehash of her earlier "pornish rewrites" rant. 

Anyone who's read Annie knows she's not big on happy endings.  However, having written the story, with all its ambiguity, and the nerve she struck in so many people, she'll just have to get used to the fact that, although she "owns" the characters, Jack and Ennis now belong to the world. 

It's bigger than her.  Of course people get that it's about homophobia.  It just doesn't end there.  It's a springboard for all kinds of things. 

I agree with this and with Amanda's posts here on this thread.

I am still surprised that this is Annie Proulx's reaction to having struck a nerve and managed to reach so many people with her story. People *do* get that BBM is about homophobia, - those who write "happy ending" stories are stating that they wish homophobia was a thing of the past, or a thing of less impact in society - and they use two beloved characters to make that statement and to show how a society and a relationship possibly could be, if and where this alternate development had occurred. Granted, I'm sure, some of it is poorly written and some of it is "porn without plot" - but at least she's inspired a reaction from readers who do not just shrug and go on without caring.

I'm of course not disputing that she has copyright to her story and its characters.

And I can very well see how she could be extremely annoyed by fanfiction being sent her - especially if they say "here's what you should have written" which I somehow find it difficult to believe that many people actually would be dumb enough to tell her to her face. She doesn't have to read it though, or even glance at it - and how does she know the senders are who they claim to be anyhow?
 
I don't think adding to a story, making up scenes, thinking out alternate endings is anything new. I bet everyone including Annie Proulx has done that when they read a riveting story. Doesn't everyone do that? From they're quite young? Even if they don't put the stories on paper/screen and don't write fanfiction?

I remain surprised at the way she dislikes readers with "strong fantasy lives". The story is ambiguous, and deliberately so - there are lots of open spaces for interpretation. One such interpretation is  Ang Lee's film.

IMO fanfiction is another way of interpreting and discussing an author's story and its characters. Nobody (I think) will write fanfic about characters and plots that leave them profoundly indifferent. It is because she's moved people deeply and stirred emotions that a number of readers use this way of working through their feelings and opinions. Even if some readers aren't very verbal or choose unfortunate ways of expressing their admiration. I think it wouldn't hurt her if she was gracious enough to consider this, and to let be, let be.

She's created a story and two characters for the ages. They've taken on lives of their own. Many authors go their whole life without achieving that.  I wish she could be proud of it, and not so annoyed with everything that follows.

Also I wish she could find it in herself to be less publicly dismissive of her readers' ways of expressing their feelings, their interpretations and - ultimately - their gratitude.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2009, 12:13:46 pm »
I can see where getting deluged with fanfic mail -- some implying that "this is how the story SHOULD have gone" -- might become annoying, but it's highly ungracious to make such a big deal about it, IMO. As others have pointed out, she can simply choose not to read it.

And it seems odd to be so outraged that the characters you've created are beloved and have touched a cultural nerve. Are William Shakespeare, Jane Austen, L. Frank Baum, Margaret Mitchell and Gene Roddenberry all turning in their graves about the liberties others have taken with their characters and stories? If Annie Proulx gets this much unwanted feedback from fans, imagine what George Lucas must have to endure!

FWIW, the Paris Review was founded in Paris by Americans, including George Plimpton. It's now based in New York and is written and edited by English-speaking writers.

Somebody needs to buy the rest of the article so we can see whether she says anything more on the subject, possibly in a more positive vein.


Mikaela, your post came in while I was writing, and I see you have expressed some similar thoughts.


Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2009, 12:14:19 pm »
Just think how we would feel if Heath or Jake had said something similar about BBM.

That interview was more than about copyright, and Im sure if she could take legal action against fan fic writers, she would have done it by now.


she did.  Against several of us actually, which is why I went out of the fanfiction business and rewrote my stories - because her lawyer threatened a lawsuit.  There were three other authors of fan stories who got the same treatment.  I spent last winter rewriting all of mine so they wouldn't contain any Brokeback references.

Quote

The movie, in my opinion was a long way off the original story, with things added and things changed, and really, lets face it, the movie is far far bigger than her written story......we didn't see forums started like this one, about the story in the paper, how many of us would be Brokies because of the story alone? How many of us, only bought the book, because of the movie?

I think Annie Proloux has a higher opinion of herself than a lot of others do.




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Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2009, 12:15:56 pm »
I wonder what her reaction would have been if she'd had let Gus Van Sant do Brokeback Mountain a la "My Own Private Idaho" style...  I bet her head would have spun around when she saw the finished product.  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Her head did spin around when she saw the finish product of "The Shipping News", she hated the movie and refused to have anything to do with its promotion.  And that was her Pulitzer winning book.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2009, 12:18:46 pm »
:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Imagine someone like Keanu Reeves as Ennis. ...  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Well, but "finishing the story" is one thing. Telling an author he or she should have written an entirely different story than he or she wrote is quite something else.

As Annie essentially says, she didn't set out to write a story about two gay cowboys in love. She set out to write a story about homophobia.

I think it's interesting that she seems in particular to single out the "moving-on Ennis" genre of fanfiction for her authorial indignation.  :-\

Yes, she did.  There were four legal actions taken against fanfics in this fandom, and nobody I know ever sent them to her for her comment OR approval.  That isn't to say that somebody ELSE didn't send her my story, but I know I sure didn't.  Three of those four were about Ennis's life after Jack's death, which is why that particular fan fic plot is practically nonexistent in the fandom.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2009, 12:26:33 pm »
It´s hard to comment on the interview, because we don´t know exactly what have been sent to AP, or how insistent those men she mentions, have been. She seems pretty pissed, so maybe it has been pretty bad.

The comment about it being unfortunate that people have active fantasy lives is pretty funny coming from an author though, I must say


She doesn´t seem very eager to please her reader and she seems to have no trouble speaking her mind. I for one woulnd´t want to mess with AP! :)

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2009, 12:32:27 pm »
Her head did spin around when she saw the finish product of "The Shipping News", she hated the movie and refused to have anything to do with its promotion.  And that was her Pulitzer winning book.

I can understand her concerning the Shipping News.  :P

That's a whole 'nother discussion, isn't it - how an adaption with top notch actors like Cate Blanchett, Judy Dench, Kevin Spacey and Julianne Moore, a very good director and such a tragic and salty original source could be so totally *blah*?   :P  And then how another film based on another of her stories, with another good director and very handsome Hollywood stars could manage the complete opposite and keep us yacking year after year?

I guess part of the answer may be that for the Shipping News, the script had to cut down a lot on the story, reduce it and remove elements - while for Brokeback, Ossana and McMurtry had to include more that the original had on offer, and so somehow transmuted it and added to it. Plus, the Brokeback characters hit a zeitgeist nerve (even within the frames of the original story) that the Shipping News Characters don't do at all.  I mainly wanted to smack most of the SN characters silly.  ::)

I don't know. It's a fascinating comparison anyway.

But the fact remains that despite the "Shipping News" fiasco AP did keep in contact with the Brokeback scriptwriters and she met up with various people seeking to make a movie out of BBM - Ang Lee was not the first BBM director wanna-be she talked to (and the previous meeting was a disaster, the way she retells it in "Getting movied"). So she *does*  want her characters to reach a wider audience of other mediums - and to see professional interpretations played out, at least.

Offline Fran

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2009, 12:53:26 pm »
I think Annie Proulx is a very private person who's worried about her losing her privacy.

She says, "And one of the reasons we keep the gates locked here is that a lot of men have decided that the story should have a happy ending.  They can't bear the way it ends...."  Maybe some people have shown up in her town looking for her.  Maybe some have even learned her exact address and shown up on her doorstep or left things for her, and she's found that too close for comfort.  Most likely, these people's intentions are good and they just want to compliment her for her story and tell her how much it moved them and how they wish it could have had a happier ending and that they wish they could know that Ennis did find happiness after Jack's death, but to her, these people are still intruding on her privacy and, let's face it, her time.  Maybe (because of what happened to the character in Stephen King's Misery) she's worried about her personal safety. Maybe she's crabby and just wants to be left alone.

While she does come off as a little mean and hurtful in this interview and in the "pornish rewrites" one, I think she's shown us that she's not one to sugar-coat her words to spare anyone's feelings, whoever they are, even at the risk of disappointing some of her devoted fans.  While we can wish she'd be more respectful to Brokies, that's not how it's going to be.  She's obviously moved on and doesn't want to keep revisiting Brokeback Mountain.  But she does have the right to make that choice, as disappointing as it is.



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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2009, 12:55:11 pm »
Brokeback Mountain wasn't overly popular with most gay men. All one needs to do is read some early reviews in gay-based media. The first time I saw the movie, the theater was filled with faux cowboys all a twitter. Some cackled and carried on during the movie, and went away because it had, in their opinion, a bad ending (the boys didn't live happily ever after) and their wasn't enough sex and nudity shots. Many of these guys let her know about it. Kinda like, "how dare you", "why do gay characters always end up unhappy.....", blah blah. I heard some of these comments from gay guys. Like she stated repeatedly, her story isn't about gays or cowboys for that matter. It is about homophobia in Wyoming in the 1960's.

I went to theater showings weekly until it closed. A months after BBM opened nationwide, the audiences transformed from the faux and cackle to a predominately hetro and female audience. After the movie saturation post Oscar announcements and Golden Globes, there were times when the theaters were filled with mainly straight couples and women couples. I don't reckon these later folks sent her the nastiness she received initially. These people with all the nastiness and finger pointing didn't get BBM. She is absolutely correct. IMO, that coupled with the later fan fic that had J & E as vampires, pedophiles, etc. put her over the top.

There were positive interactions between Proulx and gay fans. One of which was an early member at DCF. He sent her a letter thanking her for the book, and detailed how it impacted he and his partner of 25 years--a couple of guys who happened to live in Wyoming and were close to what J & E would have been had they found their happy little cow and calf operation. He sent me a copy of her response. She was gracious and proud of them. She even invited them to her place, which they didn't jump on as to leave her with her privacy.  

Yeah, she did threaten legal action against fanfic writers, and for good reason. To want to  "bitch slap" her is childish and immature.

Brad

edited so as not to have to read some definition from wikipedia  




Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2009, 01:15:06 pm »
I haven't read any messages referring to Annie Proulx as a bitch, Brad.
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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2009, 01:25:27 pm »
I haven't read any messages referring to Annie Proulx as a bitch, Brad.
  I used to have respect for her, but now I think I just wanna bitch slap her...  OMG lady, let it go...

Bitch slap = slapping a bitch. Perhaps you see it differently. Either way, to slap her? Grow up. No wonder she lives behind a closed gate, worried..........

Brad

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2009, 01:31:06 pm »
But the fact remains that despite the "Shipping News" fiasco AP did keep in contact with the Brokeback scriptwriters and she met up with various people seeking to make a movie out of BBM - Ang Lee was not the first BBM director wanna-be she talked to (and the previous meeting was a disaster, the way she retells it in "Getting movied"). So she *does*  want her characters to reach a wider audience of other mediums - and to see professional interpretations played out, at least.

Money's a point, I would guess. Literary writers, even some good and well-known ones, often aren't rich. Unless they're Stephen King or his ilk, they generally have day jobs, teaching or whatever. As far as I know (and I may be wrong), Proulx doesn't teach. Her work is loved by her fans, but it's not to everybody's taste (including mine, to be honest). So it's possible that despite misgivings, she's willing to let her work get movied for the sake of the film rights and increased sales.



Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2009, 01:34:43 pm »
Money's a point, I would guess. Literary writers, even some good and well-known ones, often aren't rich. Unless they're Stephen King or his ilk, they generally have day jobs, teaching or whatever. As far as I know (and I may be wrong), Proulx doesn't teach. Her work is loved by her fans, but it's not to everybody's taste (including mine, to be honest). So it's possible that despite misgivings, she's willing to let her work get movied for the sake of the film rights and increased sales.




yep, most of them are.  Although I think she made her pile before Brokeback was movied, but yes, publication usually entails buying and optioning the movie rights so she probably had little or no say in how "Shipping News" was filmed.  She got a say in "Brokeback" because that's how it was negotiated and the screenwriters and producers actively sought her approval of the script.

That does happen sometimes, but it usually is something the owners of the options do as a consideration to the author, because they want the cooperation and the endorsement.
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Offline Kelda

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2009, 01:37:22 pm »
I think Annie Proulx is a very private person who's worried about her losing her privacy.

She says, "And one of the reasons we keep the gates locked here is that a lot of men have decided that the story should have a happy ending.  They can't bear the way it ends...."  Maybe some people have shown up in her town looking for her.  Maybe some have even learned her exact address and shown up on her doorstep or left things for her, and she's found that too close for comfort.  Most likely, these people's intentions are good and they just want to compliment her for her story and tell her how much it moved them and how they wish it could have had a happier ending and that they wish they could know that Ennis did find happiness after Jack's death, but to her, these people are still intruding on her privacy and, let's face it, her time.  Maybe (because of what happened to the character in Stephen King's Misery) she's worried about her personal safety. Maybe she's crabby and just wants to be left alone.

While she does come off as a little mean and hurtful in this interview and in the "pornish rewrites" one, I think she's shown us that she's not one to sugar-coat her words to spare anyone's feelings, whoever they are, even at the risk of disappointing some of her devoted fans.  While we can wish she'd be more respectful to Brokies, that's not how it's going to be.  She's obviously moved on and doesn't want to keep revisiting Brokeback Mountain.  But she does have the right to make that choice, as disappointing as it is.




I think you've probably hit the nail on the head there, but still its a bit..  ??? isn't it?
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2009, 01:40:43 pm »
A couple of points. AP may have "moved on" from Brokeback Mountain but recently she revisited it and wrote the libretto for the opera that will debut in Spain in 2013, something I'm looking forward to very much.

In her audio interview with the BBC (I've been trying to find the link to it without luck) AP said how disappointed she was with The Shipping News...with the movie and also with the book, even though it won the pullet surprise. She was influenced by public feedback on her work to add a happy ending which she did grudgingly and she added "if you can define happiness as an absence of pain." A very complex and inscrutable person! With my training and degree in journalism, I respect her need to tell stories about rural life as it is and was. There's a need for entertainment, but there's also a need for what she gives us, like it or not.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2009, 01:53:47 pm »
She says, "And one of the reasons we keep the gates locked here is that a lot of men have decided that the story should have a happy ending.  They can't bear the way it ends...."  Maybe some people have shown up in her town looking for her.  Maybe some have even learned her exact address and shown up on her doorstep or left things for her, and she's found that too close for comfort.  Most likely, these people's intentions are good and they just want to compliment her for her story and tell her how much it moved them and how they wish it could have had a happier ending and that they wish they could know that Ennis did find happiness after Jack's death, but to her, these people are still intruding on her privacy and, let's face it, her time.  Maybe (because of what happened to the character in Stephen King's Misery) she's worried about her personal safety. Maybe she's crabby and just wants to be left alone.

She very well could be, at least at some level. She herself admits that she's not popular in Wyoming. Or she could be speaking figuratively.  :-\

That, too.  ;D

Quote
While she does come off as a little mean and hurtful in this interview and in the "pornish rewrites" one, I think she's shown us that she's not one to sugar-coat her words to spare anyone's feelings, whoever they are, even at the risk of disappointing some of her devoted fans.  While we can wish she'd be more respectful to Brokies, that's not how it's going to be.  She's obviously moved on and doesn't want to keep revisiting Brokeback Mountain.  But she does have the right to make that choice, as disappointing as it is.

You can say that twice and mean it!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2009, 01:55:22 pm »
A couple of points. AP may have "moved on" from Brokeback Mountain but recently she revisited it and wrote the libretto for the opera that will debut in Spain in 2013, something I'm looking forward to very much.

In her audio interview with the BBC (I've been trying to find the link to it without luck) AP said how disappointed she was with The Shipping News...with the movie and also with the book, even though it won the pullet surprise. She was influenced by public feedback on her work to add a happy ending which she did grudgingly and she added "if you can define happiness as an absence of pain." A very complex and inscrutable person! With my training and degree in journalism, I respect her need to tell stories about rural life as it is and was. There's a need for entertainment, but there's also a need for what she gives us, like it or not.

Bravo, FRiend Lee!  :D
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Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2009, 02:26:34 pm »
Yes, it was apparently male fanfic writers who were sending her things and maybe even dropping rewrites off on her porch.  I would certainly be infuriated at the condescension of that — of people who were implying "here's how your book should have ended", etc.  One can't blame her for being angry at that.

But how many of these people could there have been?  She goes and makes these sweeping statements, wishing the whole book and film had never been made.  Whether she's exaggerating or not, she's completely disregarding the thousands of readers who do "get it".  She could easily vent about the handful of annoying folk without potentially alienating everyone else.  As an author, she should be capable of making such a basic distinction.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2009, 02:56:42 pm »
Annie Proulx is not the only author to view fan fic in a less than gracious light.

I seem to remmber hearing that Anne Rice is even more against fan fic, and that a number of "Vampire" fan fic authors have had legal action taken against them.


Bottom line is that Ennis Del Mar, Jack Twist, Brokeback Mountain, and all associated characters are hers legally.

As someone who has tried his hand at fan fic (an incomplete story that has pretty much dried up) I can respect her opinion of someone reworking characters she owns the rights to.


I say that with all due respect to slash authors....I've read a number of stories and enjoyed them.


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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2009, 03:03:37 pm »
Yes, it was apparently male fanfic writers who were sending her things and maybe even dropping rewrites off on her porch.  I would certainly be infuriated at the condescension of that — of people who were implying "here's how your book should have ended", etc.  One can't blame her for being angry at that.

I rather suspect it's less condescension than simple total cluelessness. Anyone clueless enough to send Annie Proulx a manuscript of how she should have written her own story probably, in his or her own mind, thinks he or she is doing Annie a favor. And possibly he or she, in some twisted (no pun intended--well, maybe), Law-and-Order, stalker sort of way, is expecting approval from Annie in return.
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Offline twtplanner

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2009, 03:08:36 pm »
I rather suspect it's less condescension than simple total cluelessness. Anyone clueless enough to send Annie Proulx a manuscript of how she should have written her own story probably, in his or her own mind, thinks he or she is doing Annie a favor. And possibly he or she, in some twisted (no pun intended--well, maybe), Law-and-Order, stalker sort of way, is expecting approval from Annie in return.

I agree.

terry

Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2009, 03:13:01 pm »
And a quick peruse of most of the fan fics here and on DCF will reveal most of the authors of such loaded up their piece with crude sex scenes and more boyfriends for Ennis, completely misunderstanding the nature of her work and characters.



I think you perhaps misunderstand the nature of fan fiction. Fan fiction is not mainly about copying AP or to follow her intentions regarding BBM. Fan fiction is about being inspired by certain characters and wanting to explore them further - and the nature of these explorations take on various forms depending on the writers various interests.

I hope AP changes her attitude towards fan fiction

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2009, 03:19:38 pm »
Annie Proulx is not the only author to view fan fic in a less than gracious light.

I seem to remmber hearing that Anne Rice is even more against fan fic, and that a number of "Vampire" fan fic authors have had legal action taken against them.


Bottom line is that Ennis Del Mar, Jack Twist, Brokeback Mountain, and all associated characters are hers legally.

As someone who has tried his hand at fan fic (an incomplete story that has pretty much dried up) I can respect her opinion of someone reworking characters she owns the rights to.


I say that with all due respect to slash authors....I've read a number of stories and enjoyed them.

A lot of people have some misconceptions about the copyright limits and rights of authors.  A copyright is a limited monopoly over a created work for a set period of time.  Presently the author's lifetime plus 70 years.  Then it becomes public domain.  However, this monopoly on the use, marketing, and derivative works of the author is limited by the legal concept known as "fair use."  Because the statutory penalty for willful use and copying from an original work is so high ($100,000 per incident, plus financial damages if applicable) there aren't a lot of tests of fair use in the world of fanfiction, and most fanfiction contains disclaimers that tend to reassure the author that the use of their work was for personal enjoyment and not a threat of commercial competition.  However, fair use is a limit on the copyright holder, and includes parody, commentary, criticism, and transformational use.  The most famous case of finding "fair use" and defeat of a copyright claim was in the case of the Margaret Mitchell estate (author of "Gone With the Wind") vs. Houghton-Mifflin and Alice Randall, author of a parody work entitled "The Wind Done Gone."    The settlement, announced May 9, 2002 will allow publisher Houghton Mifflin Co. to continue to distribute The Wind Done Gone under the label "unauthorized parody." The Boston publisher also agreed to make a financial contribution to Morehouse College in Atlanta at the request of the Mitchell estate.  (http://www.rcfp.org/news/2002/0529suntru.html)

Randall DID use characters and situations found in "Gone With the Wind" but was able to demonstrate to the court that the purpose of the work was essentially parody, which is considered fair use.  There is a legal opinion rendered by a copyright lawyer I posted a couple of years back claiming that much of slash fan fiction that explores the sexual relationships of characters from existing stories, movies or shows could be defended as fair use under the "criticism and commentary" clause of Fair Use.  Until fan fiction writers get a lot more bold and have a lot more money, there will not be many tests of this approach in the annals of copyright law, and people like me will just rewrite their stories when they get threatened with a lawsuit by Annie Proulx's deep pockets lawyer in New York.

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Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2009, 03:22:23 pm »
I think you perhaps misunderstand the nature of fan fiction. Fan fiction is not mainly about copying AP or to follow her intentions regarding BBM. Fan fiction is about being inspired by certain characters and wanting to explore them further - and the nature of these explorations take on various forms depending on the writers various interests.

I hope AP changes her attitude towards fan fiction

not bloody likely.  You should have read the letter her lawyer sent me.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2009, 03:26:10 pm »
not bloody likely.  You should have read the letter her lawyer sent me.
It would have scared the s**t out of me to get a letter like that

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2009, 03:32:47 pm »
Randall DID use characters and situations found in "Gone With the Wind" but was able to demonstrate to the court that the purpose of the work was essentially parody, which is considered fair use.  There is a legal opinion rendered by a copyright lawyer I posted a couple of years back claiming that much of slash fan fiction that explores the sexual relationships of characters from existing stories, movies or shows could be defended as fair use under the "criticism and commentary" clause of Fair Use.  Until fan fiction writers get a lot more bold and have a lot more money, there will not be many tests of this approach in the annals of copyright law, and people like me will just rewrite their stories when they get threatened with a lawsuit by Annie Proulx's deep pockets lawyer in New York.


I'm not so sure that most of the slash authors consider their work "parodies".


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
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Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2009, 03:35:47 pm »
It would have scared the s**t out of me to get a letter like that

It was an intellectual property lawyer at NBC, and the woman's letter told me that Proulx's (and Focus Features') lawyers eyes were all over the Brokeback fan community looking for people to target.  I had expected by mid-2007, after 4 authors were contacted, that the trend would continue and we would hear of more.  Maybe there were more, and the large number of unfinished stories and complete defections from the fanfic fandom came in part as a result, but no one is talking, really.  The other three I know of got so scared they deleted their journals and as far as I know left the fandom completely.  I talked to the lawyer, told her that my intent was reworking my stories and explained the plot, and she agreed that if I took the names and details out it would satisfy them and they would drop it.  But then again, I'm used to dealing with lawyers and such.  And I did get a little informal help from a New York lawyer who confirmed the legitimacy of the original cease and desist and advised me a bit.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2009, 03:44:00 pm »
It was an intellectual property lawyer at NBC, and the woman's letter told me that Proulx's (and Focus Features') lawyers eyes were all over the Brokeback fan community looking for people to target.  I had expected by mid-2007, after 4 authors were contacted, that the trend would continue and we would hear of more.  Maybe there were more, and the large number of unfinished stories and complete defections from the fanfic fandom came in part as a result, but no one is talking, really.  The other three I know of got so scared they deleted their journals and as far as I know left the fandom completely.  I talked to the lawyer, told her that my intent was reworking my stories and explained the plot, and she agreed that if I took the names and details out it would satisfy them and they would drop it.  But then again, I'm used to dealing with lawyers and such.  And I did get a little informal help from a New York lawyer who confirmed the legitimacy of the original cease and desist and advised me a bit.
It seems to me, as though you handled the situation very well. And good to see that you kept on writing your stories

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2009, 03:57:46 pm »

I'm not so sure that most of the slash authors consider their work "parodies".

Probably not.  But I agree with that lawyer that there is a credible defense of the erotic stories that they are social commentary and serve as criticism.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2009, 04:08:36 pm »
Her work is loved by her fans, but it's not to everybody's taste (including mine, to be honest).

Nor mine. I diligently trudged my way all through the Shipping News, and it was the most depressing and disconcerting tale. I personally fear ever ending up with as bleak an outlook on humankind and our lives, prospects and personalities as that book conveyed to me. And as for "Close Range" - if I hadn't known exactly which short story ended it, and had just started reading from the beginning, I'd never have gotten to the end and would never have read Brokeback.

In a way I don't wonder that Annie Proulx comes across as crabby and huffy in the few interviews I've read. Having an active reflective mind occupied with creating and conveying the bleak fictional characters and ditto storylines she gives the reading world, must take a toll. I can only speak for myself, but I would be permanently depressed and robbed of all my humour, such as it is, if it were me.

Brokeback has a strange grace and light to it, compared to the other stories of hers I've read. And I'm pretty sure I won't read any more.

I do still read Brokeback fanfics though. I do admit to somewhat naively hoping for a happy ending for all, inclusive of Jack and Ennis.

I still marvel at any person clueless enough to  actually send her their happy-ending stories and telling her "this is how it should have ended". She's got every right to be royally PO'd at that.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2009, 06:42:34 pm »
Probably not.  But I agree with that lawyer that there is a credible defense of the erotic stories that they are social commentary and serve as criticism.

 ::)  Only a lawyer. ... :laugh:
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2009, 06:56:45 pm »
Her work is loved by her fans, but it's not to everybody's taste (including mine, to be honest).

I love her "voice." I've never read The Shipping News, but in her Wyoming short stories I think she comes closer than anyone I've ever read to getting down on paper the "sound" of a story being told out loud by a story-teller.

And some of the character names she comes up with, like Queeda Dorgan in "Them Old Cowboy Songs." And think of actually entitling a story "Tits Up in a Ditch."  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2009, 06:59:22 pm »
Probably not.  But I agree with that lawyer that there is a credible defense of the erotic stories that they are social commentary and serve as criticism

most moral people understand there are MANY things that are legal that are STILL rude and inconsiderate...and should not be done.

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2009, 07:20:19 pm »
Copyright and other laws protecting inventions and intellectual properties exist for good reasons. Non-inventors may feel it's their right to capitalize on someone else's creativity and hard work, but that is a misguided perception. 'Exploring characters further' makes no sense; fanfiction is attempting to alter and reinvent characters it has no right to touch. If anyone wants to 'explore', read another book in which the character(s) is featured; if there are none, that is just unfortunate, and one is left to studying the original work itself.

Plus, the limited perusing of BM fanfiction I have seen is obviously attempts at making male-to-male sexual interests and situations more open and seedy...miles away from anything AP had in mind. For some reason, fanfiction writers appear to be titilated by the freedom to use words and situations previously somewhat taboo outside of closed circles; using situations they often know nothing about. To that I suspect AP would say "get over yourself" and leave my characters alone. And I agree with her.

witness the orgasmic joy over the phrase "teabagging"...the giggly jr high "did you hear what that means!!"

I know I was turned off writing fan fic after reading some of the 'art' presented by others...

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2009, 09:44:15 pm »
This isn't about which fan fic was this or that, right or wrong, etc.  No one ever said anyone had to read anyone else's Fan Fiction.  If you weren't interested in it, then simply don't read it. 

This is about Annie getting some letters from a few folks who saw the movie "Brokeback Mountain" and then "critiqued" it.  And now she goes on this tyrade about it with this blanket statment saying we all mis-interpreted it and we're all wrong and she now feels she shouldn't have written it?

Sorry Brad, but inmaturity (your word) goes both ways...  When you talk down to your fans who were touched and moved by your work like that, you'll get it right back to ya.  Call it what you want, it's human nature.  Respectfullness can go a long way....

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2009, 09:46:28 pm »
I'm with Eric here, it is fruitless and disturbing to readers and fans for an author who has published and made a great deal of money off a publication to make a statement like wishing she never wrote it.  But there have always been artists who have a love/hate relationship with their fans.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2009, 10:14:18 pm »
I'm with Eric here, it is fruitless and disturbing to readers and fans for an author who has published and made a great deal of money off a publication to make a statement like wishing she never wrote it.  But there have always been artists who have a love/hate relationship with their fans.

(Shrugs) Doesn't bother me in the least. As I've said already, my sympathies are all with Annie. I'm sure she had--or has--days when it seems like "Brokeback"/Brokeback has taken over her life, and she feels heartily sick of it. I understand the feeling and I don't hold it against her. But I agree, there always have been artists who have a love/hate relationship with their fans.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2009, 10:34:04 pm »
Copyright and other laws protecting inventions and intellectual properties exist for good reasons. Non-inventors may feel it's their right to capitalize on someone else's creativity and hard work, 
there is no money involved in fan fiction  O0

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2009, 10:38:05 pm »
I think Annie is upset with the situation and maybe herself perhaps.  

She wrote this story with "open spaces" in it, for the "readers to bring their own experiences to it" and to "finish the story themselves".  

It seems that *some* of the interpretations of the story and/or movie that some folks have shared with her are not to her liking.  But who's fault is that?  She deliberately left it open for interpretation!

Where was she when the movie came out?  She refused interviews.  She didn't want to talk to reporters.  She didn't want to elaborate on the story.  IMO, if she had been more vocal during the release of the movie, and perhaps gave some interviews and elaborated on the story and it's meaning (the destructive effects of homophobia), then maybe perhaps she wouldn't have gotten letters from "men" telling her how her story should be different.  ;)  But, where was she?  Hmmmm?  I think her silence about the movie and story during the movie's release actually hurt it (the message she was tryin' to get across) in some ways.  It did leave it open to "fantasy pornish re-writes" if that's where some folks wanted to take it...

So, what can she do about it now?  How about this Annie?  Instead of going on temper tantrum tyrades and generalizing that we all "got it wrong", how about replying to these "men" who sent you their versions of the story, and constructively explaining to them and elaborating to them why the story and movie is the way it is.  How about talking more to the press and holding book discussion/movie screenings and elaborating on exactly what the "destructive effects of rural homophobia" are, and discussing why you wrote the story the way you did and why the movie the way it is.  Perhaps then Annie, the re-writes of your story will stop coming to you...

She could choose to actively do something constructive and positive here (even though she missed the opportunity to do so when the movie was fresh out in the theatres and all a buzz), or she can sit there and continue to complain about it and be upset about it....

Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2009, 10:40:19 pm »


Plus, the limited perusing of BM fanfiction I have seen is obviously attempts at making male-to-male sexual interests and situations more open and seedy...miles away from anything AP had in mind. For some reason, fanfiction writers appear to be titilated by the freedom to use words and situations previously somewhat taboo outside of closed circles; using situations they often know nothing about. To that I suspect AP would say "get over yourself" and leave my characters alone. And I agree with her.
 Like I said, the purpose of fan fiction is not neccessarily to explore what AP had in mind.

"Using situations they know nothing about"

You mean fiction has to be self-lived to be relevant? Well bye bye sci-fiction O0  Without fantasy there wouldn´t be much fiction out there for anyone to read. You want self-lived you should go for non-fiction


But the purpose of this thread is not to discuss fan fiction in general. I think AP is mainly upset about the fact that she´s gotten a lot of stories sent to her. And I think she has every right to be annoyed by that.

Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2009, 11:01:36 pm »
I mean that unless a writer knows his/her subject, even fiction is not going to work. If you are under the impression that successful sci fi writers are not deeply aware of the science behind their stories, rots a ruck.


A lot of fan fiction involves techniques not yet invented, or have characters visit other worlds of which there is hard to have any knowledge of.

The foundation of fiction is fantasy and an interest in human relationships.

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2009, 11:05:29 pm »
Hmmmm. Not sure why AP needs to do that sort of reach out to anyone. She created a work, she sold it, and that is that. It may be nice if she accomdated her readers' wants and needs and desires, but i think holding her to that level of expectation is not fair. And why should she be obliged to extend herself to such heights in order to defray the type of actions and behaviors she should be guaranteed anyway? She's an author, not a volunteer social worker.

No one said she *had* to do anything.  It was a suggestion friend.  But, then she needs to stop sitting there and bitching and complaining then.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2009, 12:29:46 am »
I dont read a lot of fan fiction, but with those that I have read, and if the names of the characters are Ennis and Jack, I have put the face of Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal to those characters....definately not the faces described in the book.........Heath and Jakes face did not belong to her.

The stories re-written.....does she think for one minute that her characters are the only ones who have ever gone through what they did, or that stories along the same lines can end differently. Does she hold the copyright or the "ownership" on all cowboys,or all gay men who fall in love.....no she doesn't.

I dont know what those writers think Annie will do with their fan fiction if they send it to her. What could she possibly do with it.  And that part of the interview I guess, I can agree with her feelings about that. No doubt, others involved in the film get the same fan fiction sent to them, but they obviously follow the road of common sense and throw it away without talking about it.

If people want to write fan fiction, then that is their perogative. If we wish to read it, we have that same perogative.

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2009, 01:17:01 am »

If people want to write fan fiction, then that is their perogative. If we wish to read it, we have that same perogative.



Those lawyers at Simon and Schuster might have something to say about that. Proulx is not as vigilant as some on protecting what is her intellectual property, when you get right down to it. Anyone writing fanfiction is assuming a level of risk, it goes with the terrtory. If your going to do 120 on the Interstate in the middle of BF Utah and a state trooper radars you out of nowhere, its pretty Damn dumb to argue with him over the ticket.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #82 on: May 06, 2009, 04:26:16 pm »
Those lawyers at Simon and Schuster might have something to say about that. Proulx is not as vigilant as some on protecting what is her intellectual property, when you get right down to it. Anyone writing fanfiction is assuming a level of risk, it goes with the terrtory. If your going to do 120 on the Interstate in the middle of BF Utah and a state trooper radars you out of nowhere, its pretty Damn dumb to argue with him over the ticket.

Butt-Fuck?  ;D
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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #83 on: May 06, 2009, 06:02:15 pm »
Butt-Fuck?  ;D

Dont tell me you never heard that exprerssion "B*F* Egypt" or just "BFE" or "B*F* [your little town name here]" to describe a place that is the ass-end of nowhere.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2009, 07:15:14 pm »
Dont tell me you never heard that exprerssion "B*F* Egypt" or just "BFE" or "B*F* [your little town name here]" to describe a place that is the ass-end of nowhere.

Oh, yeah (except for the "Egypt" part; that's new to me). Just making sure I understood you. I'm not used to people being so discreet as to just abbreviate it.  ;D

I guess East Butt-Fuck, or East Bumfuck, which I've also heard, must be east of the ass-end of nowhere.  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2009, 10:51:58 pm »
Dont tell me you never heard that exprerssion "B*F* Egypt" or just "BFE" or "B*F* [your little town name here]" to describe a place that is the ass-end of nowhere.
Oh yeah!
My favorite is still 'Slingshit Asia"  :laugh:
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2009, 01:14:55 am »
Oh yeah!
My favorite is still 'Slingshit Asia"  :laugh:

That one's new to me. Is it east or west of East Bumfuck?  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2009, 03:11:12 am »
She can be a cranky crabass.  We knew that already.  She wouldn't be her if she wasn't.  Remember the trashing and thrashing she gave the Academy Awards experience?  But she also said that Heath Ledger's name should be Heath Legend, so she has my support to be whatever the fuck she wants.

And I'm guessing she's wrong about the gender of many of the fan fiction writers she's referring to, just based on what seems like an overwhelming majority that I know of being women.

She's cantankerous, and it allows her the discipline to sit and write, all by herself.  I say let be let be.





Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2009, 06:22:23 am »
That one's new to me. Is it east or west of East Bumfuck?  :laugh:

LOL! Pretty sure it's east of there! :laugh:
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Offline min

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2009, 06:31:54 am »
My two cents worth, but if it weren't for BBM the movie, I probably would never have read any of Annie Proulx's works to the end as I found them difficult to 'get into'.  But I persisted just because of BBM the short story and have come to enjoy her style, esp her short stories.

As for the people who have rewritten her stories with a different ending and then sent them to her, well, I don't know why they think she would be flattered or agree with them.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2009, 10:14:01 am »
What if...there were a relative or a friend who is closeted whose privacy she is trying to protect? Would you feel differently about her in that case??
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Offline optom3

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2009, 10:37:20 am »
The phrase that really jars for me, is when she says, I guess they just became too real.I would have thought that was one of the highest accolades an author could receive. Is not the whole purpose of writing a fictional work, to build up characters which resonate with the reader and produce a response, any response.
When she openly admits that Jack and Ennis became very real for her, as she as writing, why would she be upset that they became real for so many of us.
I read the story first and sobbed for days as I fervently read and re read it. I felt the pain of both Jack and Ennis and it resonated deep inside, touching a wound and reopening it, long after I thought it had healed. I was very wary of going to see the film and prevaricated for some time. I had my own very fixed images of Jack and Ennis by then and was wary of walking away from the film, bitter and angry as I have on many occasions when I have read a book first and then seen a film.

It is a testament to the genius of Ang, script writers, Heath and Jake, that I absorbed the film and took something new from it. The film was of course filled with more detail than the sparsely penned  S.S. but that enhanced, rather than is often the case detracting from my experience.Ennis and Jack were reborn and again I started into another downward spiral of regret, chances handed to me so freely, yet like Ennis, rejected as I lacked the courage to move forward with what intuitively I knew would make me happy.

So Proulx rather than bemoaning the fact that maybe the characters became too real, should rejoice that they were given life by Heath and Jake, and from that rebirth emerged a film which stopped those affected in their tracks.Not just for a day, but for a lifetime, giving courage, where previously none had existed, to go out and grab life by the balls !!

If that was my only success in life I would die a happy lady.She is undoubtedly fed up with, as she sees it, inferior works of fiction, my advice on that subject would be, buy a bigger bin. It is like the people who bewail the mind numbing fodder we are fed via our T.V. if you do not like it, use the off button.It is not rocket science.

As for the lady herself, if I go to my grave feeling I have made just one persons life richer emotionally, if I changed the opinion of only one bigot, or gave courage to someone to pursue the life they want, I would die a happy lady. For Annie, I think she should be happy that her epitaph could easily and honestly be, I made a difference and opened a few eyes. Not a particularly shabby way to be remembered.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2009, 01:33:51 pm »
I don't know much about fanfiction, but it seems like the quality of the writing is in inverse proportion to the need of the author to be praised for his/her work. That's the thing that alarms me about the genre, so I stopped reading any and all fanfiction because, once some of the authors knew I had read part of their work, they pestered me for feedback, and only the most positive and gushing feedback would do. I'm a professional writer, so giving honest feedback was impossible. I imagine AP got caught in the same, or similar boat.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2009, 02:21:44 pm »
The phrase that really jars for me, is when she says, I guess they just became too real.I would have thought that was one of the highest accolades an author could receive. Is not the whole purpose of writing a fictional work, to build up characters which resonate with the reader and produce a response, any response.
When she openly admits that Jack and Ennis became very real for her, as she as writing, why would she be upset that they became real for so many of us?

I don't think she is. As quoted in Eric's post that began this thread, she said:

Quote
"So yeah, they got a life of their own. And unfortunately, they got a life of their own for too many other people too."

Annie certainly doesn't use words casually. I believe there is a distinction between characters become "real," both for an author and a reader, and taking on "a life of their own," and I bet Annie does, too. It seems to me her beef is not with readers for whom Ennis and Jack became "real" but with readers unable to accept the life--the fate--that their creater--Annie--gave them, so they have to go on and rewrite her story to show her how her own story should have been written.

Quote
So Proulx rather than bemoaning the fact that maybe the characters became too real, should rejoice that they were given life by Heath and Jake, and from that rebirth emerged a film which stopped those affected in their tracks.

I think she does. She spoke very highly of both of them in her essay, "Getting Movied," in Story to Screenplay.

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2009, 05:47:40 pm »
This is a great thread that I have enjoyed reading.
Quote
a film which stopped those affected in their tracks.Not just for a day, but for a lifetime, giving courage, where previously none had existed, to go out and grab life by the balls !!
What a great quote! That happened for me and describes my reaction to a tee!

I can understands Annies frustration though. It would be like someone coming up to me and telling me that the way i was parenting Elizabeth is all wrong and I should do it like this. I would be pissed.
But, thats what happens when you put your stuff out there in the public arena!
I have written fan fic. Not because I thought AP did a substandard job or i thought more should be added to the story, I did it cause i was inspired.'
The story (movie and short story) affected me so much I had to find some way to get the emotion it caused out.
For me thats how I did it.
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2009, 08:30:07 pm »
The bottome line is.....BBM became bigger than Annie Proulx.

For the average movie goer who enjoyed the movie, most of them probably dont even know her name.

When you mention BBM to anyone, do they bring her name up.....none that I have ever spoken to, except on here. She is way down the list of credits.......and I dont think she likes that, and interviews like this latest one, seem to be her way of re-stamping her name on the story, like a dog pissing out his territory.

Its like SHE is the only one allowed to interpret the story, because she wrote it, its like you can like it, but you must like it the way I want you to like it. "If you dont play by my rules, Im gonna take my bat and ball and go home"....

She put it out there, she gave it to McMurtry and Ossama.....they gave it to Ang....who gave it to Heath and Jake.....each one doing with it, the way they inerpretted it......then they gave it to us......and we are doing with it, what all the others did.

She is a long long way down the chain...........Annie ???........Annie WHO ????
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2009, 09:43:05 pm »
This is, indeed, a fascinating thread, but I'll tell you what. I must be missing something, because I think I'm seeing a lot of free-flowing anger directed at Annie Proulx that really seems to me to have very little relationship to what she actually said in the interview that Eric quoted in his first post:

Quote
PROULX: Oh, yeah. In Wyoming they won’t read it. A large section of the population is still outraged. But that’s not where the problem was. I’m used to that response from people here, who generally do not like the way I write. But the problem has come since the film. So many people have completely misunderstood the story. I think it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience, but unfortunately the audience that Brokeback reached most strongly have powerful fantasy lives. And one of the reasons we keep the gates locked here is that a lot of men have decided that the story should have had a happy ending. They can’t bear the way it ends—they just can’t stand it. So they rewrite the story, including all kinds of boyfriends and new lovers and so forth after Jack is killed. And it just drives me wild. They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality. They just don’t get it. I can’t tell you how many of these things have been sent to me as though they’re expecting me to say, oh great, if only I’d had the sense to write it that way. And they all begin the same way—I’m not gay, but . . . The implication is that because they’re men they understand much better than I how these people would have behaved. And maybe they do. But that’s not the story I wrote. Those are not their characters. The characters belong to me by law.

Where is all this anger coming from?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #97 on: May 07, 2009, 10:03:35 pm »
It did not take that particular interview to make me dislike her.

I have read several interviews and read several posts, and they all describe "whats her name" in a similar light....

"Dont want to talk about BBM, thats history, Ive made my money, now lets get onto something new that I can make some money from and boost my ego".

I was pissed off with her the first time I read her bloody story......120 fucking pages......120....if it wasnt for McMurtry, Ossama, Ang, Heath and Jake it would still be tomorrows fish and chip wrappings.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2009, 10:17:40 pm »
     They can’t understand that the story isn’t about Jack and Ennis. It’s about homophobia; it’s about a social situation; it’s about a place and a particular mindset and morality. They just don’t get it. I can’t tell you how many of these things have been sent to me as though they’re expecting me to say, oh great, if only I’d had the sense to write it that way. And they all begin the same way—I’m not gay, but . . . The implication is that because they’re men they understand much better than I how these people would have behaved. And maybe they do. But that’s not the story I wrote. Those are not their characters. The characters belong to me by law.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Now in my opinion there is no way possible, to misinterpret that particular statement.  She is saying that
we don't  get it.  We don't understand the story, is about homophobia, not about Jack and Ennis.  She is
not giving any respect to the people that "do" understand the entire thing.  We know that it is about how
people behave when confronted by homophobia.  We know that it could have been about any two men, by
any other names.  However it is about them, because she did give them names, and made it about the way
they reacted because of the atmosphere they were in. 
  We who read and even those who write fanfiction about these two characters, dont do it for the benefit
of telling her that her story is more capably finished by others in a different way.  I think she is only saying
that in order to justify her own attitude.  I think that the people that do send her information, which I doubt
is a very few.  Are merely doing it to try and show her how they enjoyed the story so much that they wish to have it continue to live in more than one way.  I doubt if she is sincere in her attitude about it all,  because
she knows that.  She is not losing any money on it.  They certainly are not demeaning her terrific story.  However having said that, I do think that if she stands by her own statement that people should finish the
story the way they feel it should be, according to their own experiences.  Then she will understand that the
stories that are written are only continuing a love affair with the story she started.  I for one am very
disappointed that she has such an uncaring attitude toward the people that so obviously revere the story
as written, and filmed, and remembered.  It will continue to grow as time goes by, in spite of her onus
attitude, or her mean spirited talk.

"

 



     Beautiful mind

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2009, 10:26:14 pm »
It did not take that particular interview to make me dislike her.

I have read several interviews and read several posts, and they all describe "whats her name" in a similar light....

"Dont want to talk about BBM, thats history, Ive made my money, now lets get onto something new that I can make some money from and boost my ego".

I was pissed off with her the first time I read her bloody story......120 fucking pages......120....if it wasnt for McMurtry, Ossama, Ang, Heath and Jake it would still be tomorrows fish and chip wrappings.

Well, I hope you're enjoying wallowing in your anger. Whether you like her or not, without her there would have been no film--that's a fact no one can escape whether they like Annie Proulx or despise her.

And no, "Brokeback Mountain" was a prize-winning short story long before Ang Lee, etc., came along. So it would not have been tomorrow's fish and chips wrappings.

I have no idea what you're referring to by "120 fucking pages," so let be, let be.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #100 on: May 07, 2009, 10:29:20 pm »

I was pissed off with her the first time I read her bloody story......120 fucking pages......120....if it wasnt for McMurtry, Ossama, Ang, Heath and Jake it would still be tomorrows fish and chip wrappings.


Not sure what you are talking about? Brokeback Mountain by Annie Proulx is about 10,000 words. At 500 words/pg (in a word processor) with standard margins and spacing, that's about 20 pages. What version of BBM did you read that was 120 pages long?

L
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Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #101 on: May 07, 2009, 10:41:04 pm »

Not sure what you are talking about? Brokeback Mountain by Annie Proulx is about 10,000 words. At 500 words/pg (in a word processor) with standard margins and spacing, that's about 20 pages. What version of BBM did you read that was 120 pages long?

L

I kept thinking it was 20, but as I wrote that, I thought, NO it had to be 120.......OK.....20 f**king pages....thats even worse......if she got so "into the characters" why didn't she write more.......I've seen many fan fic longer than 20 pages.
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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #102 on: May 07, 2009, 10:57:05 pm »
Well, I hope you're enjoying wallowing in your anger. Whether you like her or not, without her there would have been no film--that's a fact no one can escape whether they like Annie Proulx or despise her.

And no, "Brokeback Mountain" was a prize-winning short story long before Ang Lee, etc., came along. So it would not have been tomorrow's fish and chips wrappings.

I have no idea what you're referring to by "120 fucking pages," so let be, let be.

I'm not angry Jeff, I guess I just dont like the lady or her comments relating to BBM.

I do owe her something.....you are right....she did write the original story.

I've said enuf........
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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2009, 02:05:13 am »
I don't know much about fanfiction, but it seems like the quality of the writing is in inverse proportion to the [bold] need of the author to be praised for his/her work.[/bold]  That's the thing that alarms me about the genre, so I stopped reading any and all fanfiction because, once some of the authors knew I had read part of their work, they pestered me for feedback, and only the most positive and gushing feedback would do. I'm a professional writer, so giving honest feedback was impossible. I imagine AP got caught in the same, or similar boat.

And I'm guessing she's wrong about the gender of many of the fan fiction writers she's referring to, just based on what seems like an overwhelming majority that I know of being women.

Sometime ago, I opined most slash was about the authors and not about the story or the characters. Thanks Front Ranger. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

As Ellemeno pointed out, it was my observation most authors were female. Did I get a rash of shit for that statement. I was referred to as a major misogynist by one slash author who wasn't even participating in the discussion.

To make the point most authors were in it for themselves, the first nastiness and banning occurred at DCF in the slash threads. The viciousness was actually funny--claws and fangs and everyone involved was female. Most contained pornographic content and some here at Bettermost was what I consider pedophilia. With Focus Features and Proulx publisher representatives monitoring these threads, how can  anyone blame her?

Brad


Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2009, 02:35:28 am »
If you are referring to the egos of the writers fo fan fic, Brad, I agree with you also.

Before I joined Bettermost, I was on the Yahoo Brokeback site, and got friendly with another member (female) who considered herself a good writer. She started writing a fan fiction story, and emailed chapter by chapter to her friends. I was really enjoying the story, and I was amazed that an "amateur" could write so well,she used to push me for comments on every chapter and I complimented her many times. Then she took a different course in the story at about chapter 14, and I told her as tactfully as I could, that I felt she had gone off track. She wrote back a nasty letter to me, and I never heard from her again.

We had not just been emailing the fan fiction, we had become freinds, and talked about many many things, for months and months, then all of a sudden she was gone. I wasn not impressed.

Then another time, I went into a slash site, and started reading another story, by one of the regular writers in there....I enjoyed that story too, and waited eagerly each week for a new chapter, then it got to the final chapter, and she said, I have personal things I need to attend to, will write next week, then it was supposed to be the week after that....I went into that site every day to see if she had completed the story and never did she finish it.

That was my two and only two attempts to enjoy fan fiction, and I know I was pretty unlucky, and I know some of my friends are absolutely addicted to it, but I just cant get into it now.

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Offline Berit

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2009, 02:48:44 am »
I've read this thread several times now and I get more and more ..... ??? ....for each time

AP wrote BBM, she gave us this beautiful story. She took the story from what she had experienced, people she had met and seen, stories she had been told. It is her story. She gave birth to BBM. It hasn't a happy ending but that is the way life is, it has seldom - or never - a happy ending. It is what it is and for me, continuing this story is to ruin it. But I don't read fan fic or slash. That is my choice. I have tried and I found it totally ridiculous. Other, on the other hand does read and it is fine by me. AP doesn't like her short story to be changed. She has her right to her opinion. As I understand it, people have sent their stories to her with wishes that she would like them, encourage the writer and even write a sequel her self. That was dumb. She got pissed. I don't blame her.

Keep the fan fiction and the slash on forums like this, read and enjoy if you like that kind of stuff. Don't expect a prize winning writer to alter her story just because you had "a better idea".

I love BBM. I love the sadness of it, it is like life itself. For me Ennis is still in his trailer, looking out on the yellow field, longing for love lost.

I thank Annie for writing this, giving me BBM.

Please feel free to correct me if I have been mistaken in any way.
Ennis.....always Ennis.....

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #106 on: May 09, 2009, 04:07:57 am »
Your not mistaken in any way Berit, you are right on. I never fail to be amazed by the reaction to Proulxs reaction myself. We are are all here because of the story SHE wrote. No story, no Diania Ossana reading the New Yorker one night and showing it to Larry McMurtry = No Movie.

I have read some fanfiction in my time and tried my own hand at it, and IMO, though some of those writers had a great deal of talent of their own, none came close to the woman who can write passages like:

One summer evening, their bed spread among the floor among the chips and splinters, they fell to kissing. Rose, in some kind of transport, began to bite her kisses....

"Oh Archie, I didnt mean to hurt,..."
"You did not...It's I aint never been. Loved...feel like I been shot," pulling her into his arms, rolling half over so that the salty tears and saliva wet her embroidered waist shirt, calling her his little birdeen, and at that moment she would have walked into a furnace for him.


Things dont go no better for these lovers in their rose-coveerd cottage than they do for Jack and Ennis after they come down off the mountain:

There was no way to know what happened. The more he thought about Archie the more he remembered the clear, hard voice and the singing. He though about Gold Dusts's rampant fur, about the sleek weasel at the McLaverty cabin. Some lived and some died, and that's how it was...
The following spring as he rode past their cabin he saw that the frost heaves had tipped the stone over and that the ridgepole of the roof had broken under a heavy weight of snow. He rode on, singing, "when the green grass comes, and the wild rose blooms," one of Aechie's songs, wondering if Gold Dust had made it through again.


Those who saw the movie and dont care to read any further of the woman who created the characters they loved, that siezed and fired their imaginations and launched a thousand terrible fanfics, and a few pretty good ones, ask of yourselves, why is that.

If its just a sexy read your looking for, no need to dress it up in character devlopment, plant flowers around it, etc. Most porn mags feature one-handed reads by writers who are clearly capable of better, but got to pay the mortgage and child support like the rest of us. What I sense here is the snit that comes from rejection, Annie Proulx rejected me so Im rejecting her back.

Not so. Annie Proulx gave you a piece of her soul and Im not being dramatic. Giving birth to a character is not all that different from parenting in real life. Theres no real map and no sense if you succeeded or not. She labored and brought forth these characters and the world responded, but that was ten+ years ago and she has since moved on. I wonder what people seek from her now, what more do they want. I sense Proulx saying, thats all there is, theres no more, frustrated that people want more from her than shes prepared to give, she moved on and why cant they.

I used to think it was sour grapes from mediocre writers toward a truly great writer, but now I think that our celebrity culture has created a sense of genuine obligation on the part of those who eleveate people to fame toward the ones who are elevated. Nevermore (dont mind my quoting you do you Nevermore?) said that a writer needs to be detached in order to have those powers of observation that make them a writer in the first place. To have the long view, you need to be further out than your fellow men, in other words. Proulx is famously standoffish; she chose to live in the most unpopulated state in the Union. So what. William Faulkner, Thomas Pynchon, JD Salenger, and Cormac McCarthy, are famously averse to company. But they are men, and it only burnished their myth.

Woman are not allowed to have that artist detachment, apparently, and no one is quicker to cry fowl apparently than other women. (Bradford, you are dead on), its not enough to be one of the greatest living American writers, Proulx has to be a warm, maternal Oprah figure, listening patiently and empathetically to all our problems. Its not enough to give us the fruits of her labors, and let them speak for themselves. She has to be our therapist too.


injest

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2009, 08:26:39 am »
for me, the dialogue in fan fic is so tricky that I can't get into it much...most writers seem to think that all you have to do to make your characters sound "rural" is to use a lot of "ain't"s and conjunctions "wanna, coulda"s and drop the g's off everything in sight..(sorry, drop the g's off everthin' in sight)

well there is a bit more to it than that....grating to me. Sounds artificial and patronizing

I wrote a few pieces of fanfic back in the day, for me they were more a way to get some of the feeling out...I am humble enough though to know they are no where NEAR the quality of Proulx's and no way would I presume to send them to her.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2009, 12:00:42 pm »

Proulx is famously standoffish; she chose to live in the most unpopulated state in the Union. So what. William Faulkner, Thomas Pynchon, JD Salinger, and Cormac McCarthy, are famously averse to company.



I think this is the main point.  So I would say a person oughtn't to be surprised if Proulx is less than enchanted and less than cordial when a person and her or his unsolicited manuscript that lays claim to Proulx's characters crowd her space uninvited.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2009, 06:14:46 pm »
for me, the dialogue in fan fic is so tricky that I can't get into it much...

most writers seem to think that all you have to do to make your characters sound "rural" is to use a lot of "ain't"s and conjunctions "wanna, coulda"s and drop the g's off everything in sight..(sorry, drop the g's off everthin' in sight)

well there is a bit more to it than that....grating to me. Sounds artificial and patronizing

I wrote a few pieces of fanfic back in the day, for me they were more a way to get some of the feeling out...I am humble enough though to know they are no where NEAR the quality of Proulx's and no way would I presume to send them to her.


Injest you have just summed up very neatly the main reason why the fan fic on the Bettermost site gets no traction with me. And like you, I have "attempted" to slug through some of the efforts, and finally gave up.

Wannabe writers of realistic fiction should never try to not write about subjects, locales, time periods which they have little direct personal experience. To the informed, their efforts seem lacking, or as you suggest patronizing. The uninformed of course may be impressed, but what of it?

Sci-Fi / Fantasy has legions of fan fic writers who do wonderful work on the sci-fi / fantasy canvas, and in that environment you just have to write well and know a bit about character development - and it helps to love the genre.

AP should stay pissed and ever vigilant to keep control of her intellectual property.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2009, 08:16:53 pm »
... none came close to the woman who can write passages like:

One summer evening, their bed spread among the floor among the chips and splinters, they fell to kissing. Rose, in some kind of transport, began to bite her kisses....

"Oh Archie, I didnt mean to hurt,..."
"You did not...It's I aint never been. Loved...feel like I been shot," pulling her into his arms, rolling half over so that the salty tears and saliva wet her embroidered waist shirt, calling her his little birdeen, and at that moment she would have walked into a furnace for him.


Judge, I agree with you a hunerd percent...well, about 98 percent, and thank you for quoting that recent story Those Old Cowboy Songs from AP's most recent book, which I'll bet less than 5% of Brokies have read.

Where I differ from you is when you said that AP has moved on. In a way, maybe she has, but I suspect Jack and Ennis haunt her still. Also, keep in mind that she has recently written the libretto for the opera Brokeback Mountain which will debut in 2013. In it, there is new information, including a scene where Ennis TALKS to the SHIRTS. I can't wait!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2009, 10:37:46 pm »
Where I differ from you is when you said that AP has moved on. In a way, maybe she has, but I suspect Jack and Ennis haunt her still. Also, keep in mind that she has recently written the libretto for the opera Brokeback Mountain which will debut in 2013. In it, there is new information, including a scene where Ennis TALKS to the SHIRTS. I can't wait!

Annie's written the libretto?  :o

No foolin'?  :o
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2009, 10:40:40 pm »
What I sense here is the snit that comes from rejection, Annie Proulx rejected me so Im rejecting her back.

Thanks, Judge. That's essentially what I felt, but I wasn't quite able to put my finger on it or put it into words.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2009, 12:11:56 am »
Annie's written the libretto?  :o

No foolin'?  :o

I ain't foolin friend! Read all about it right here!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,35571.0/all.html
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #114 on: June 12, 2009, 12:10:27 am »
I wonder what AP thinks of Brokeback Mountain Radio?   ???

Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #115 on: June 12, 2009, 12:23:38 am »
I wonder what AP thinks of Brokeback Mountain Radio?   ???

She would probably roll her eyes, and shake her head, and tell us to move on and get a life.

She has, and cannot understand why some of us haven't.
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #116 on: June 12, 2009, 12:49:59 am »
She's like William Shatner in that classic Saturday Night Live sketch at the Star Trek con!


Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #117 on: June 12, 2009, 01:57:48 am »
She's like William Shatner in that classic Saturday Night Live sketch at the Star Trek con!




I tried to find a YouTube of that, but the best I could find was this adulterated version of it.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihsSmJNsDX8[/youtube]


On the other hand, that led me to this.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X692xD2TBU[/youtube]



Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2009, 02:15:43 am »
Hahaha Tell the old Hagg to get over it. Anytime you write a story and it goes public in some way its no longer yours, People interpret story's in there own minds and beings. She sounds a bit off her rocker if you ask me. She wrote it she got paid for it and thats it Darling, now its up to the world to interpret it.  What a nut case.

Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2009, 03:04:16 am »



[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X692xD2TBU[/youtube]




 :laugh: :laugh:

and  he said duchebag...hehe

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2009, 07:31:36 am »
:laugh: :laugh:

and  he said duchebag...hehe

I know!  That was the funniest part. lol

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #121 on: June 12, 2009, 08:43:43 am »
She would probably roll her eyes, and shake her head, and tell us to move on and get a life.

She has, and cannot understand why some of us haven't.

If she's "still pissed", then arguably it's less a case of moving on than taking on some of the characteristics of what one most despises -- in this case, apparently, a churlish celebrity.

As for people here proclaiming that they don't read fanfiction -- if you don't want to read something, don't read it.  But it isn't on a par with composing a great symphony, saving children from a burning building or actually making sense of the IRS Tax Code.  It's not an accomplishment; get over it.


Oh right, like nobody here ever thought of that.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2009, 08:49:00 am »
If she's "still pissed", then arguably it's less a case of moving on than taking on some of the characteristics of what one most despises -- in this case, apparently, a churlish celebrity.

As for people here proclaiming that they don't read fanfiction -- if you don't want to read something, don't read it.  But it isn't on a par with composing a great symphony, saving children from a burning building or actually making sense of the IRS Tax Code.  It's not an accomplishment; get over it.


Oh right, like nobody here ever thought of that.

Thought of WHAT????
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #123 on: June 12, 2009, 08:53:48 am »
She would probably roll her eyes, and shake her head, and tell us to move on and get a life.

She has, and cannot understand why some of us haven't.

Tell you what, I don't intend to be offensive or personal, but, depending on what exactly you mean by "moving on" with respect to Brokeback Mountain, I don't understand it either.  :-\

I feel that I've incorporated the story and the film into my life and "moved on," but I'm sure not living it night and day like I did three years ago.  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #124 on: June 12, 2009, 09:15:03 am »
I'm not either. And frankly, I don't acknowledge the authority of a writer I've never even seen in person, let alone met, to tell me to 'move on'.  Although the eye-rolling and head-shaking part is none of my business.

People have all kinds of interests; watch just one installment of Antiques Road Show and you'll see examples you can hardly believe.  This is one of them, and speaking just for myself, it's been no less rewarding than any other.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #125 on: June 12, 2009, 09:25:06 am »
Tell you what, I don't intend to be offensive or personal, but, depending on what exactly you mean by "moving on" with respect to Brokeback Mountain, I don't understand it either.  :-\

I feel that I've incorporated the story and the film into my life and "moved on," but I'm sure not living it night and day like I did three years ago.  :-\

If you think by what I posted, that I am insinuating that people should "move on" then you are wrong. I used the term "move on and get a life"  as suggesting, that it is SHE who is telling us to do that.

Personally, I dont give a rats **** whether people move on or whether they dont. Its up to them how much of a part of their life is consumed with BBM. I know how much of a part of my life it is, and I am comfortable with that, just as everyone else should be.

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #126 on: June 12, 2009, 11:20:18 am »
Elle, thanks for posting those hilarious William Shatner (and Leonard Nimoy) videos. I've always loved how William Shatner is willing to caricature himself. I bet that "get a life" sketch was a turning point.


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #127 on: June 12, 2009, 11:36:36 am »
If you think by what I posted, that I am insinuating that people should "move on" then you are wrong. I used the term "move on and get a life"  as suggesting, that it is SHE who is telling us to do that.

Personally, I dont give a rats **** whether people move on or whether they dont. Its up to them how much of a part of their life is consumed with BBM. I know how much of a part of my life it is, and I am comfortable with that, just as everyone else should be.

No, I understood you meant that was what Annie is telling people. It's none of my business either if anybody is stuck in his or her first emotional reaction to Brokeback Mountain. I took your comment to suggest that Annie doesn't understand how some people haven't been able to "move on," and I honestly don't understand it either. If I were close to somebody who was still as torn up as some of us were when we first saw the movie, I'd be concerned about that person's well-being.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #128 on: June 12, 2009, 11:43:03 am »
Annie Proulx can be a cranky crabass.  We knew that already.  She wouldn't be her if she wasn't.  Remember the trashing and thrashing she gave the Academy Awards experience?  But she also said that Heath Ledger's name should be Heath Legend, so she has my support to be whatever the fuck she wants.

She's cantankerous, and it allows her the discipline to sit and write, all by herself.  I say let be let be.

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2009, 11:51:01 am »
I think we are moving on.

The movie left me with one very clear question: "They never asked for much, why shouldn't they have been able to have that simple happy life they wanted?"  I think a lot of people were left with that question. 

And every year since then, I hear more and more people asking it.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2009, 12:15:48 pm »
Annie Proulx can be a cranky crabass.  We knew that already.  She wouldn't be her if she wasn't.  Remember the trashing and thrashing she gave the Academy Awards experience?  But she also said that Heath Ledger's name should be Heath Legend, so she has my support to be whatever the fuck she wants.

She's cantankerous, and it allows her the discipline to sit and write, all by herself.  I say let be let be.


"Cranky" and "cantankerous" in one post!

But what the hell does "let be" imply in this context? That we shouldn't be discussing it or commenting?  Let's have some perspective here.  And if she's commenting on the reaction of Brokeback fans, that's somewhat outside the realm of "sitting and writing by herself."

Offline Katie77

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2009, 08:04:40 pm »
No, I understood you meant that was what Annie is telling people. It's none of my business either if anybody is stuck in his or her first emotional reaction to Brokeback Mountain. I took your comment to suggest that Annie doesn't understand how some people haven't been able to "move on," and I honestly don't understand it either. If I were close to somebody who was still as torn up as some of us were when we first saw the movie, I'd be concerned about that person's well-being.

I am sure Jeff, that most of us have "moved on" in some way, from the way we initially felt when we first saw the movie. That first breath taking, gut wrenching turmoil of emotion was something that we at first thought ripped our heart out, drove us crazy, left us walking around with it pounding in our thoughts. We awoke with it, and we slept with it.

And I guess, like when anyone goes through a life changing experience, we think we will never be the same again, and we will never get over that feeling. We even think that we are crazy, that there is something wrong with us, for a lot of us, we thought we were the only one feeling this way. We were even embarrassed to talk about it to family and friends and some of us bottled up our feelings, which in some cases only made it more intense.

Our "therapy" or "councelling" was to to come into sites like Bettermost, to talk to people who were reacting the same way, we at last realized that we were not alone, we read stories of how people were feeling, and it was exactly how we were feeling. So we new we were not going crazy, or rather, if we were, we were not going there alone. We were able to talk about it, we learnt to understand it, and we learnt to accept it.

If accepting it means we have "moved on" then most of us have, if enjoying the experience instead of fearing it means we have "moved on" then most of us have, if instead of it taking over our life completely, but now infiltrating it into the way we live day to day, is "moving on" then we have done that too, if we are better people now than we were before then we have "moved on".

"Moving on" is not something that can be measured or has a use by date, its as individual and private similar to how someone grieves. We all do it differently and should be allowed to do so, without someone thinking we need help or we need "to get a life".

I personally, have never been a fan of Annie Proulx, I have not read any of her other books, I do not like her "hollier than thou" approach to her ownership of BBM, I dont like her attitude towards the people like us, who she seems to belittle because of our obsession (for want of a better word) with the story and the film. SHE is not responsible for how I feel, I do not give her any credit whatsoever for the wonderful journey I have been on since seeing the movie. I AM who is responsible for that journey, it is MY life's experiences that caused me to grab hold of the words and the meanings in the story to make me feel this way, the only thing she did, was have the ability to put the words together to a story that was all ready MINE and YOURS and everyone else here. To her it was a story of fiction, to most of us it was actual fact. She didn't give me Ennis and Jack, I had an Ennis and Jack in my life all ready, they just had different names.She didn't give me Brokeback Mountain, it had been in my life long before she penned the words.

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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2009, 08:55:24 pm »
Irrespective of my feelings for Annie Proulx, I dislike it when anyone tells me to "move on." I am not cattle. I also feel the same way when people tell me not to worry about something. I am the person who decides what I will worry about and what I will not worry about!

Since I am a journalist and that's how AP began her career, I might have some insight into her point of view. You see, journalists have deadlines, they turn in their stories, and that is it. Another day, another story. It can be upsetting to some people but to others, it seems natural. Not living with being gay, AP may not see why the story refuses to be put to bed. But, I sometimes think there's something else going on here. I think AP went out on a limb in writing this story. It's not just an anonymous guy at the Mint Bar; I think there was someone close to her that inspired her to write this story. And now she feels the need to protect him since attention to the story blew up way beyond what she expected.
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Offline tampatalon

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2009, 01:32:20 am »
Irrespective of my feelings for Annie Proulx, I dislike it when anyone tells me to "move on." I am not cattle. I also feel the same way when people tell me not to worry about something. I am the person who decides what I will worry about and what I will not worry about!

Since I am a journalist and that's how AP began her career, I might have some insight into her point of view. You see, journalists have deadlines, they turn in their stories, and that is it. Another day, another story. It can be upsetting to some people but to others, it seems natural. Not living with being gay, AP may not see why the story refuses to be put to bed. But, I sometimes think there's something else going on here. I think AP went out on a limb in writing this story. It's not just an anonymous guy at the Mint Bar; I think there was someone close to her that inspired her to write this story. And now she feels the need to protect him since attention to the story blew up way beyond what she expected.

Lee, Well put. I have always believed what these lines express. My senses have always told me the same and my heart ached for these guys wondering if it really ended for them the way the story ended.

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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #134 on: June 13, 2009, 05:30:20 am »
"Cranky" and "cantankerous" in one post!

But what the hell does "let be" imply in this context? That we shouldn't be discussing it or commenting?  Let's have some perspective here.  And if she's commenting on the reaction of Brokeback fans, that's somewhat outside the realm of "sitting and writing by herself."


By "let be let be" I meant that everything that makes her her led her to create what brought us together.  So she's unsupportive of us and kind of jerky.  Oh well.  I don't have to hang out with her.  If she misunderstands me or my motives, it's not surprising - she's never talked to me.  If she judges me for not having moved on and gotten a life, oh well, that's her problem.  She's not only cranky and cantankerous, she's even crochety.  Okay.  I don't have to visit her.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #135 on: June 13, 2009, 01:03:37 pm »
She's not only cranky and cantankerous, she's even crochety

And a crabass.  And a curmudgeon.    ;)

Offline optom3

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #136 on: June 13, 2009, 04:04:55 pm »
What I don't understand is why Annie P. gets so annoyed when people take her story so much to heart. Is it not every author's dream to feel they have connected with their reader on such a deeply fundamental level?
 Maybe she thought that the story would only affect gay men, but it spread way beyond those narrow perimeters.
Personally, if I felt that my words had so deeply impacted on my fellow human's lives I would be ecstatic. Don't we all deep down wish that along life's rocky road, we made a difference, that our existence made someone else's life better.
That is certainly my deepest wish.I don't want fame or fortune, I want to feel that however many years amounts to my lifespan, I have made someone feel better, happier, more at ease. etc.
My 1st encounter with BBM was the story not the film. I sobbed until my eyes were red raw after that first reading. I became like a woman possessed, I could not read it often enough. I was like an addict craving my next fix. I read it in bed, in the bath, whenever I had the chance.If I missed a day without reading it, I felt deprived. So much so, that I delayed seeing the film, no way could it do justice to Proulx's words. I dithered and prevaricated, a million reasons I would not see the film. I could not bear  for actors to come in and invade the space in my head where Jack and Ennis existed, it was sacrosanct.  I guarded those two as if they were my own flesh and blood.  The story had taken on a momentum all its own and I truly felt that to trust it to anyone to make Jack and Ennis real, would be like trusting a stranger with my children.
It was the man who has had my heart for 13 years now, who finally persuaded me. It was his gay brother who had originally introduced the S.S to us both. My lover had fallen as badly as I for the story, he went to see it first with his brother and after that he was insistant that I saw the film.I have never admitted this before but I went to see the film with him. I was left in pieces and knew instantly why my love had wanted me to see it. To see Ennis come to life was to face up to the fact that I was Ennis in all bit gender.
My solution to all of this was to move thousands of miles away, to America and so deny where my heart really was. It was the actions of an insane woman, love is not inversely proportional to distance.Quite the reverse, so now I and all my family live with the consequences of my actions and reactions. I am just happy that for everyone bar me, the move has been a blessing. Nigel has come to realise through many bends in the road who he is and is all the better for that. The kids, even James are settled and as content if not more so, than they were in England.
I still struggle daily with my Ennis type actions. So to Annie I would say, to have impacted so very deeply on just one person's life is incredible, to multiply that by a factor I can only guess at, surely has to be a writer's dream, not nightmare.
All I want now, is to never have my husband feel less than because of me, and to pray with every cell in my body that my children find love wherever and hold it so tightly that they will never feel how I do.
O.K I have wandered slightly off topic, but I feel so deeply that Proulx has achieved an author's dream. Certainly  some of the attention is not what she would wish, but there you are, it is what it is. George Michael once sang, " turn a different corner and we never would have met"  I certainly would never met some of the wonderful people here, had I not read, "Ennis Del Mar wakes before five", and carried on until, "and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it"

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #137 on: June 13, 2009, 08:16:23 pm »
Awwwwww Fi, your words bring me to tears!
I can so relate to everything you have said.
Ain't no reigns on this friend!
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #138 on: February 20, 2010, 03:00:53 am »
She's a plainspoken, forthright person who feels no call to be all Mary Poppinsy toward these people.
That's ironic - I assume you mean Julie-Andrews-as-Mary-Poppins-in-the-filmy towards them. Mary Poppins in the book - I nearly wrote "the real Mary Poppins" was very like the real Annie Proulx.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2010, 10:39:43 am »
What I don't understand is why Annie P. gets so annoyed when people take her story so much to heart. Is it not every author's dream to feel they have connected with their reader on such a deeply fundamental level?
Actually AP DOES appreciate the critical acclaim for the story and the way it has changed lives. Many people have written to her about their reactions after reading the story and she has answered many letters (she has very tiny handwriting). What she doesn't appreciate is right-wing Christian fundamentalists stalking her and buzzing her house with their planes; people who write with demands, weird requests, or sending manuscripts for her to read and critique; and fanfiction writers who steal her intellectual property.

... I delayed seeing the film, no way could it do justice to Proulx's words. I dithered and prevaricated, a million reasons I would not see the film. I could not bear  for actors to come in and invade the space in my head where Jack and Ennis existed, it was sacrosanct.  I guarded those two as if they were my own flesh and blood.  The story had taken on a momentum all its own and I truly felt that to trust it to anyone to make Jack and Ennis real, would be like trusting a stranger with my children.
That was me as well. I didn't see the film until January of 2006, when my daughter dragged me to it.

George Michael once sang, " turn a different corner and we never would have met"  I certainly would never met some of the wonderful people here, had I not read, "Ennis Del Mar wakes before five", and carried on until, "and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it"
That is sure the truth!
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Offline Marina

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #140 on: March 05, 2010, 12:09:37 pm »
I have read these accounts about Ms. Proulx and I have mixed feelings about it - I understand her points completely.   She also many have encouraged a few new writers!  But they are her characters and her story, and what a story it is.   Certainly, people should not presume to improve on it, or try to profit from it, or make a pornfest out of it!   Her story is her own - her own thoughts, experiences, and views that lead her to write it.  

But then, I also feel that writing about Ennis and Jack, for some, is a way to work out complicated feelings the story and film brought out.    And of course Heath and Jake bringing them to life, the wonderful adaption by Diana Osana and Larry McMurtry who we also love, Ang Lee's fine direction, and an incredible soundtrack just make it unforgettable.

My husband and I picked up the book at a bookstore namely because we love the West (he spent a brief part of his life in Idaho).    I didn't read it until during Brokeback promotion the author's name was mentioned - and from then on I was gone - hook, line and sinker.

I feel I have moved on from my initial overwhelmed feelings about why couldn't society accept two people who just wanted to be together (I literally couldn't get up from my theater seat, couldn't even cry until my second viewing) - but I have been permanently changed by seeing the film and reading the story.   There's a little piece of my heart and mind where Ennis and Jack reside forever in happiness.

I'm so happy there are places like Bettermost where we can still talk about Brokeback from time to time.

I love AP's writing and so does my husband.   I was so intrigued by the passages someone above posted about "Archie and Rose", that I had to look it up and found that it was from her latest short story collection Fine Just The Way It Is.  I'm off to read it immediately!

:)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 09:35:05 pm by marina »
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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #141 on: March 05, 2010, 12:20:22 pm »
Once you create characters, you don't always have the control over them you might like.  That's life.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #142 on: March 05, 2010, 12:34:08 pm »
Writing about Ennis and Jack, for some, is a way to work out complicated feelings the story and film brought out.

This was the case for me.  :)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2010, 01:41:36 pm »
Once you create characters, you don't always have the control over them you might like.  That's life.

This was the case for me.  :)

I agree with these sentiments and with Marina's comment that Jeff quoted.  I've never written fanfic, but I've read a ton of it.

I feel like I've said this a lot before, but I guess it is worth repeating.  Things that are equivalents to fanfic happen in culture all the time.  Artists and writers borrow ideas, tweek compositions and quote one another all the time in all kinds of different ways.  Parody (both very serious and lighthearted) have been a part of literature, theater, art, etc. for ages.

When you think about it, the movie of Brokeback Mountain is already a kind of "fanfic". this echos some of the ideas brought up by Marina in her post.  The movie includes many elements and embellishments that do not exist in the short story.  For instance the SNIT is something invented beyond the control of Proulx... as with the details about the female characters, a million elements of dialogue, etc.  The screenplay was written by two other authors... and it's filled with ideas from McMurtry and Ossana... separate, again, from Proulx's control.  I don't think many folks here have much of a problem with the idea that McMurtry and Ossana (and Ang Lee, the actors, etc.) altered BBM in order to make it into a movie.


People have been writing novels based on Jane Austen's novels and characters for years. And, people have made alternate versions of Shakespeare's plays (sometimes radically altered) for years too.  And, then there are things like Wicked... which, seems to be a very high-level example of a type of "fanfic."  Issues of appropriation are basic aspects of a lot of English courses these days.  And, a lot of high level literary theory deals with issues of appropriation because it's fundamental to how ideas in art circulate.

What Annie may not understand, because I doubt she's probably actually read a lot of the very good and thoughtful fanfic.... is that many of the good fanfic stories are very respectful, introspective, etc.  And many are so different from the original BBM that they really can be said to be only tangentially inspired by BBM.  There is definitely a lot of bad and/or silly fanfic out there, but there's a lot of very smart writing out there too.





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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #144 on: March 05, 2010, 01:54:55 pm »
The big difference with the movie is that Ang Lee and James Shamus licensed the rights from Annie Proulx and paid her as well as obtaining her permission. She okayed changes in the story and was even on the set occasionally. There's a world of difference between James McMurtry and a fanfic writer, I think you would agree.

These fanfic writers actually had the nerve to send their pieces to Annie Proulx and tell her that she got the story wrong and it should have gone their way!!

I have no problem with people who want to write about Jack and Ennis for their own benefit and entertainment, but publishing it is a different matter.

I agree with you that appropriation, imitation, etc. are used by artists to good effect, but appropriation is not the right word for what fanfiction writers are doing. Stealing is the right word.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #145 on: March 05, 2010, 01:57:19 pm »

appropriation is not the right word for what fanfiction writers are doing. Stealing is the right word.


I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about this.  

I think it would be stealing if someone took the entirety or large chunks of the original short story word for word and claimed it as their own writing.  I've never seen that in fanfic.  Most of the stories quickly veer pretty far away from the original.


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #146 on: March 05, 2010, 02:11:43 pm »
I'm somewhere in between you two. I think many fan fic writers have nothing but good intentions, many are talented, and their work is a tribute to Proulx's genius. I'm sure there's an element of respect in most or all of it.

But it's not about their intentions or the quality of the work, it's about a writer's control of his/her intellectual property. Jane Austen, Shakespeare and L. Frank Baum are all dead. The copyrights on their works have expired, and their writing is in the public domain.  When fan fic with more recent characters gets published as books -- for example, all of those Star Trek novels -- there's no doubt the originator of the story gives permission and gets paid. It took Margaret Mitchell's foundation years to grant permission for a sequel, and I would guess the publisher paid. Someone who made money off Harry Potter characters found him/herself in court. As with all filmmakers, Larry and Diana don't qualify as fan fic writers because Proulx was paid for the rights to her work.

I'm not sure to what extent it's possible to make money on fan fic, but if anyone does so it would violate the spirit of the copyright law as well as,  I'm sure, the letter. Otherwise, if I were Annie Proulx, I think I'd probably shrug it off. It probably leads more people to buy her books, and complaining irascibly alienates fans.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #147 on: March 05, 2010, 02:20:16 pm »
I'm somewhere in between you two. I think many fan fic writers have nothing but good intentions, many are talented, and their work is a tribute to Proulx's genius. I'm sure there's an element of respect in most or all of it.

But it's not about their intentions or the quality of the work, it's about a writer's control of his/her intellectual property. Jane Austen, Shakespeare and L. Frank Baum are all dead. The copyrights on their works have expired, and their writing is in the public domain.  When fan fic with more recent characters gets published as books -- for example, all of those Star Trek novels -- there's no doubt the originator of the story gives permission and gets paid. It took Margaret Mitchell's foundation years to grant permission for a sequel, and I would guess the publisher paid. Someone who made money off Harry Potter characters found him/herself in court. As with all filmmakers, Larry and Diana don't qualify as fan fic writers because Proulx was paid for the rights to her work.

I'm not sure to what extent it's possible to make money on fan fic, but if anyone does so it would violate the spirit of the copyright law as well as,  I'm sure, the letter. Otherwise, if I were Annie Proulx, I think I'd probably shrug it off. It probably leads more people to buy her books, and complaining irascibly alienates fans.



Yes, I can see those points about recent vs. very old/ older writing and the intricacies of copyright law.  I think the vast majority of fanfic (regardless of quality) would never come close to being published.  Most of it seems to be a way to work through ideas inspired by BBM one way or another.  But, it does raise an interesting question about how far away content can stray (and some fanfic strays very, very far from the original context) and still be considered closely connected enough to the original short story for it to even be an issue.  I'd say a lot of it is just loosely inspired by BBM (whether it is the movie or the story).



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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #148 on: March 05, 2010, 02:40:13 pm »
But it's not about their intentions or the quality of the work, it's about a writer's control of his/her intellectual property. Jane Austen, Shakespeare and L. Frank Baum are all dead. The copyrights on their works have expired, and their writing is in the public domain.

Not that this will necessarily add anything to the discussion, but the first writer to pop into my mind was Arthur Conan Doyle. Years ago it was S.O.P. for me to read a nouveau Sherlock Holmes novel (e.g., Nicholas Meyer's The Seven Percent Solution) while I was on my summer vacation.

Clearly it makes a legal difference, but perhaps some would question whether the age of work and the status, living or dead, of the writer, makes a moral difference.

Quote
When fan fic with more recent characters gets published as books -- for example, all of those Star Trek novels -- there's no doubt the originator of the story gives permission and gets paid. It took Margaret Mitchell's foundation years to grant permission for a sequel, and I would guess the publisher paid.

And the Mitchell Estate went to court to block publication of The Wind Done Gone, which retold the story of Gone With the Wind from the perspective of the O'Haras slaves. But let be, let be.

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Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #149 on: March 05, 2010, 03:07:35 pm »
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about this.  

I think it would be stealing if someone took the entirety or large chunks of the original short story word for word and claimed it as their own writing.  I've never seen that in fanfic.  Most of the stories quickly veer pretty far away from the original.




fan fiction is far from stealing. The characters in fan fiction might have the same names as Jack and Ennis, but the stories are original and the characters are never the same as in the original story. Every fan fiction contains it's own unique fictitious universe.
These stories have their origin in BBM, but they aren´t BBM. Writing fan fiction is ones way to pay tribute.

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #150 on: March 05, 2010, 03:25:57 pm »
The huge misunderstanding about copyright has to do with its intention and purpose.  The intention and purpose of copyright as a legal right has to do with commercial gain, and not with ownership.  The ownership of a work that is published is always limited - yeah, whether any of us like it or not, the right to the ownership of something is limited as soon as it is published, because it is sold to a publisher.  It is THAT PUBLISHER, not the author, who retains the commercial right to the work, and it can only revert under contractual terms agreed with the owner who sells it to the publisher.  At any rate, the ownership of any and all items that are published after 1978 revert to the public in an unrestricted manner - at least in North American, 70 years after the death of the author: see the following table

http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm

Copyright is ALWAYS limited, however, and this right to publish for gain is constrained by the Right of Fair Use, as follows:

The right of criticism and commentary
The right of parody
The right of educational use
The right of noncommercial use

Yes, non commercial use.  That means that if there is potentially NO IMPACT to the owner of the copyright by the use of the work, then it MAY be considered a fair use.  However, in most cases of fan fiction - which is by definition noncommercial use - threats by copyright owners for protection of their copyright are not tested in court due to the potentially devastating effect of a negative judgement:  $100,000 per incident if the judgement is unfavorable.  The case of "The Wind Done Gone"- in which the estate of Margaret Mitchell sued Houghton-Mufflin was resolved after an appeals court vacated an injunction against publishing it, and the parties came to an agreement for Houghton-Mifflin to make a donation to Morehouse College, an African-American institution of higher learning.  However, considering that the injunction was lifted, it indicates that Mitchell's estate was likely to have lost that lawsuit and so agreed to settle.

There is nothing in copyright case law to justify classifying fan fiction as copyright violation in its noncommercial form; only works that are not permitted by the copyright holder (not the author, please note, but the OWNER) which are published for gain are considered likely to be violations of fair use.

The purpose of copyright is not to protect authors and owners from the use of their property: it is to protect the commercial viability of their works for themselves.

At any rate, the unpermitted use of another's intellectual property is not theft: it is infringement.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #151 on: March 05, 2010, 04:18:03 pm »
Thanks for that explanation, Louise.

How is commercial use defined in the age of the internet? It would seem the publication and sale of works isn't the only way to make money on them. For example, what if someone posted their fan fic on their web page, and also ran google ads on the page? For that matter, doesn't BetterMost in some sense profit from publication of fan fic here because it is selling ad space?


Offline Marina

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #152 on: March 05, 2010, 08:07:47 pm »
Yes, thanks for that info, Louise.

To me, ad space on a webpage site really isn't the same thing - it's an indirect profit if that, and the poster really has no control over that.   Selling ad space would be the policy of the website regardless, in order to keep itself in existence, and the content would have little or no impact on that, just MO.  Direct sale and profiting from another's work is something else.

As I said, I understand a writer's viewpoint - but also that many fanfic writers are just paying tribute to a great writer's work/working out feelings about it or are inspired.   It does also create buzz and continued interest, which is why some authors and copyright holders don't mind it, I believe.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #153 on: March 05, 2010, 08:24:15 pm »
It took Margaret Mitchell's foundation years to grant permission for a sequel, and I would guess the publisher paid.

Back in the day I actually made it through two thirds of the sequel, the name of which I've blessedly forgotten. It was a piece of drivel to the umpteenth degree. I have read any number of fanfics with much higher literary qualities in every sense. (NOT GWTW fics, though - I've never tried dabbling in those.) So though it doesn't have any bearing on the issue of property and intellectual rights and sale thereof, the GWTW sequel certainly does prove that legit is not always best.


In my opinion fanfic is to literature what downloading of tunes, TV episodes or films are to the music and movie industry. The big corporations are still scratching their heads and trying to harness new types of impatient and creative consumer behaviour that's taking place by means of actively using the net. What to do when consumers aren't behaving like they're supposed to, showing up to pay their dollars for a book, a CD or a DVD?

Long before I'd heard of the internet, I created the equivalents of fanfics in my head. For every truly engaging book I read, a large part of my digesting it was continuing the story, building different scenarios within that world, wondering "what if", trying to make sense of characters by fleshing out their possible backstories and futures.... That IMO is what fanfic writers are doing, only they're doing it on the net. Instead of just talking over the water cooler about a good book or film, people are talking to the world, and using their imagination in doing so, not just their "literary-analytical" skills. I think publishers need to find better and more constructive means of harnessing and encouraging this type of readership interest, praise and analysis. They should find means to benefit from it and to realize the revenue potential such "continued free marketing and interest maintenance" entail, - well at least as long as fanfic isn't actively sold for money. Antagonistic action could be counter-productive even to their possibility of truly cashing in on their own intellectual rights. And the publishers and authors and filmmakers of hugely popular works have realized that. JK Rowling, Peter Jackson - they've stoked the fannish flames and tacitly gone very far in accepting fannish behavior including fics. And the publishers and property rights holders have been sitting back and saying little, too busy counting their billions of bucks.

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #154 on: March 05, 2010, 09:24:05 pm »
You are right about Peter Jackson regarding LOTR fanfics, but not so J.K. Rowling.  In fact, Rowling was so belligerent about a tribute reference work entitled "The Harry Potter Lexicon" which was published with a claim of fair use, that she sued the publishers.  She won the action, in a finding in New York that the Lexicon used too much of Rowling's work in its reference; and she was awarded a grand total of $6,750 in statutory damages. The year she won that action she made $300 million.  Petty? You bet.

Woe be unto anyone who writes a Harry Potter fanfic.

Same with Anne Rice's works - she will sue anyone, at any time, under any circumstances, for daring to put about a fanfic about any of her works.

And Annie Proulx would also go into that category of aggressive pursuers of fanfic writers.  Her lawyers went after me and at least three authors I know of with cease and desist letters.  I dealt with it  (I don't have $100,000 to prove adequate transformative fair use, nor did I want to) by withdrawing all fanfic pages from the Web, and subsequently modified all of the stories to remove any and all references to Brokeback or its characters.  As far as I know, Anne Rice and Annie Proulx are among the top rank of aggressive pursuers of fanfic writers.

“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #155 on: March 05, 2010, 09:34:56 pm »
You are right about Peter Jackson regarding LOTR fanfics, but not so J.K. Rowling.  In fact, Rowling was so belligerent about a tribute reference work entitled "The Harry Potter Lexicon" which was published with a claim of fair use, that she sued the publishers.  She won the action, in a finding in New York that the Lexicon used too much of Rowling's work in its reference; and she was awarded a grand total of $6,750 in statutory damages. The year she won that action she made $300 million. 

Yes, that's the case I was referring to earlier, which I could recall only in vague outline. Thanks for the details, Louise!


Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #156 on: March 05, 2010, 10:08:11 pm »
Yes, that's the case I was referring to earlier, which I could recall only in vague outline. Thanks for the details, Louise!



Rowling's petty punishment of a public library worker's tribute work with this grand trial which had no real monetary incentive to it but only her sense of outrage at having somebody show respect for her work and to entertain those who loved it, is one of the reasons why I will never, ever, spend a cent on anything Harry Potter related.  She does not understand the role of art in human culture.  And she might want to read up on copyright - the reason that works by authors revert to the public domain is that they become part of the shared cultural heritage of all humanity.  And fair use dictates that those who enjoy a work can participate in commentary and reference works for those who enjoy them.  She is LUCKY that she made $6.5 billion on her books, and she has no respect for the role she played in the larger culture. Fuck her.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #157 on: March 05, 2010, 10:28:24 pm »
Back in the day I actually made it through two thirds of the sequel, the name of which I've blessedly forgotten.

It was called Scarlett, and the author was Alexandra Ripley.

In case anyone wanted to know. ...  ::)

Quote
Long before I'd heard of the internet, I created the equivalents of fanfics in my head. For every truly engaging book I read, a large part of my digesting it was continuing the story, building different scenarios within that world, wondering "what if", trying to make sense of characters by fleshing out their possible backstories and futures.... That IMO is what fanfic writers are doing, only they're doing it on the net.

Of course, fanfic has been around since long before the Internet. I was told the idea of "slash" fanfic goes back at least as far as stories about Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock in the Sixties.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #158 on: March 05, 2010, 10:54:59 pm »
It was called Scarlett, and the author was Alexandra Ripley.

In case anyone wanted to know. ...  ::)

Of course, fanfic has been around since long before the Internet. I was told the idea of "slash" fanfic goes back at least as far as stories about Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock in the Sixties.

they were distributed at comic book and sci fi conventions furtively in samizdat mimeograph copies.  Remember mimeo?  I still can't bring myself to read a Kirk/Spock slashfic... I'm still traumatized by reading a few Stargate SG-1 Daniel/Jack ones.  Ai yi yi!  I'm one of those purists who believes that straight should stay straight in fiction!
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #159 on: March 05, 2010, 11:34:56 pm »
they were distributed at comic book and sci fi conventions furtively in samizdat mimeograph copies.  Remember mimeo?

Heh. I remember the "ditto" machines the teachers used when I was in elementary school.

Loved the smell of those fresh copies.  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #160 on: March 05, 2010, 11:43:14 pm »
Heh. I remember the "ditto" machines the teachers used when I was in elementary school.

Loved the smell of those fresh copies.  ;D

omg the smell of ethyl alcohol in the morning!
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #161 on: March 06, 2010, 12:42:44 am »
Of course, fanfic has been around since long before the Internet. I was told the idea of "slash" fanfic goes back at least as far as stories about Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock in the Sixties.

That's what I'd always heard was the origin of the name "slash."

Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #162 on: March 06, 2010, 03:11:22 am »
It was called Scarlett, and the author was Alexandra Ripley.

aaahh... I remember watching the TV adaptation of it and kind of actually liking it. But probably mostly because it had some hot scenes between Timothy Dalton and Joanne Vhalley Kilmer in it 8)
It didn't bear much resemblance with its predecessor though.

Offline Monika

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #163 on: March 06, 2010, 03:22:19 am »
You are right about Peter Jackson regarding LOTR fanfics, but not so J.K. Rowling.  In fact, Rowling was so belligerent about a tribute reference work entitled "The Harry Potter Lexicon" which was published with a claim of fair use, that she sued the publishers.  She won the action, in a finding in New York that the Lexicon used too much of Rowling's work in its reference; and she was awarded a grand total of $6,750 in statutory damages. The year she won that action she made $300 million.  Petty? You bet.

Woe be unto anyone who writes a Harry Potter fanfic.

Same with Anne Rice's works - she will sue anyone, at any time, under any circumstances, for daring to put about a fanfic about any of her works.

And Annie Proulx would also go into that category of aggressive pursuers of fanfic writers.  Her lawyers went after me and at least three authors I know of with cease and desist letters.  I dealt with it  (I don't have $100,000 to prove adequate transformative fair use, nor did I want to) by withdrawing all fanfic pages from the Web, and subsequently modified all of the stories to remove any and all references to Brokeback or its characters.  As far as I know, Anne Rice and Annie Proulx are among the top rank of aggressive pursuers of fanfic writers.


When it comes to The Harry Potter Lexicon, I think Rowlins had a point (especially as she was working on something similar herself), and to me the lexicon wasn't fan fiction. To me, fan fiction, by definition is noncommercial.
I think it's a matter of intent. If the intent is to pay tribute, to want to contribute to the fandom, it's fanfiction. If the intent is to make money, then it's something else.
What would the BBM fandom be without fanfiction?

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #164 on: March 06, 2010, 09:08:55 am »
When it comes to The Harry Potter Lexicon, I think Rowlins had a point (especially as she was working on something similar herself), and to me the lexicon wasn't fan fiction. To me, fan fiction, by definition is noncommercial.
I think it's a matter of intent. If the intent is to pay tribute, to want to contribute to the fandom, it's fanfiction. If the intent is to make money, then it's something else.
What would the BBM fandom be without fanfiction?

The intent of the Harry Potter Lexicon was to put into print a work that had developed online as the Harry Potter Lexicon Online, into a publishable form that those who did not have access to the online "Lexicon"could get to, and designed to pay tribute to the complex universe of Potterdom.  Rowling herself had complimented Vander Ark on his work on the online "Lexicon" and there was no reason to believe she would take unkindly to his putting the online system into print - in fact, the lawsuit was a shock.  It was said at the time she sued him, that she had gotten the idea of the Potter Encyclopedia FROM Vander Ark, and that her publishers pressed her into the lawsuit due to THEIR desire to capitalize on the work done on the "Lexicon."

There is very little merit in her stance in that suit considering her history of participation with and approval of the online website.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #165 on: March 06, 2010, 09:12:39 am »
You are right about Peter Jackson regarding LOTR fanfics, but not so J.K. Rowling.  In fact, Rowling was so belligerent about a tribute reference work entitled "The Harry Potter Lexicon" which was published with a claim of fair use, that she sued the publishers.  She won the action, in a finding in New York that the Lexicon used too much of Rowling's work in its reference; and she was awarded a grand total of $6,750 in statutory damages. The year she won that action she made $300 million.  Petty? You bet.

Woe be unto anyone who writes a Harry Potter fanfic.

I am fully aware of the Potter Lexicon and the legal action. In my opinion, that wasn't fanfic - that was creating a book that Rowling very conceivably would have written herself, or had others write. AS such it was providing a product that people otherwise would have been willing to actually pay her for. I can see how she thought that was stepping too hard on her financial toes.

Since several of my online friends have been into Harry Potter, I have dabbled a bit in reading fansites (never posting, or writing fanfics, since I have not myself been very gripped by the HP universe). Rowling has given interviews directly and exclusively to fan sites, sites which host fan fiction - interviews in which she has deliberately fuelled the flames of the "shipper wars" that have raged in those very fictions, and so forth - there is no doubt she is aware of and has actively made use of the fandom *and* (indirectly) fanfiction and has tacitly considered it beneficial to maintain the huge and continuing interest for her series.

Quote
Same with Anne Rice's works - she will sue anyone, at any time, under any circumstances, for daring to put about a fanfic about any of her works.

Anne Rice is quite the anomaly among fantasy/SF writers, though - there is one other female Fantasy author known for a similar strict stance. (Can't recall her name now, but she was signing books at Forbidden Planet in London one time I was there, and I thought it tempting to have asked her about that, but I didn't dare....)

Quote
And Annie Proulx would also go into that category of aggressive pursuers of fanfic writers.  Her lawyers went after me and at least three authors I know of with cease and desist letters.  I dealt with it  (I don't have $100,000 to prove adequate transformative fair use, nor did I want to) by withdrawing all fanfic pages from the Web, and subsequently modified all of the stories to remove any and all references to Brokeback or its characters.  As far as I know, Anne Rice and Annie Proulx are among the top rank of aggressive pursuers of fanfic writers.

The C&D letters from Proulx's publishers came after they (correctly or incorrectly) believed that money was being made or would be made from those fics, as far as I know. When Jenna started selling her bound and illustrated cine I was very worried she might be crossing a line long before the C&D arrived.

The difference between Proulx and other fandom biggies is that she writes "literature" and they are mostly SF/Fantasy writers - there's a tradition for fanfic and fandom activities in that latter arena that the lovers of "War and Peace" and "The Brothers Karamazov" do not match (yet). I don't think Proulx and her publishers were at all expecting the fandom activities, and they proved awkward and incompetent at handling them IMO. Of course, I won't deny Proulx the right to bitch out all and any persons writing Brokeback fanfic. That's obviously her prerogative and her opinion. Mine as her reader happens to differ. We're both entitled to our views.

I stand by my previous posts - the internet has created new and much more accessible reader and consumer opportunities of digesting and enjoying and interpreting literature of any kind, and the publishers and authors had better get round to finding constructive means of building on that instead of chasing enthusiastic and imaginative readers with scowls and threats and lawyers. Their financial interests in the long run will be more at stake if they continue down that antagonistic path. I am pretty sure Anne Rice has lost out big time, both in revenue, interest and goodwill, for denying her readership the opportunity to write about Louis and Lestat till their hearts' content and till their fingers bled.

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #166 on: March 06, 2010, 09:16:29 am »


I stand by my previous posts - the internet chas created new and much more accessible reader and consumer opportunities of digesting and enjoying literature of any kind, and the publishers and authors had better get round to finding constructive means of building on that instad of chasing enthusiastic and imaginative readers with scowls and threats and lawyers. Their financial interests in the long run will be more at stake if they continue down that antagonistic path. I am pretty sure Anne Rice has lost out big time, both in revenue, interest and goodwill, for denying her readership the opportunity to write about Louis and Lestat till their hearts' content and till their fingers bled.

I definitely agree with what you write here, however, I don't believe Proulx or her lawyers were "awkward and incompetent to deal with fandom"- I think it was a deliberate and considered act to quash fandom, because they found it repugnant, specifically that Annie herself found it repugnant.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #167 on: March 06, 2010, 09:22:00 am »
I definitely agree with what you write here, however, I don't believe Proulx or her lawyers were "incompetent to deal with fandom"- I think it was a deliberate and considered act to quash fandom, because they found it repugnant, specifically that Annie herself found it repugnant.

Yes, but interestingly that goes to prove that the opposition in such a case is *not* mainly based on the need to protect property/financial interests, which is the legal argument used. If financial issues were all that was at stake IMO she could potentially have made more money from being more "considerate" or deliberately blind to fandom activities. (Though less so than any Fantasy writer, certainly.)
But the woman has emotions and a temperament and I can't fault her for that, though she is ... cranky. To say no more. I loved her rant after the Oscars, I shall have to take it when her ire is directed at my own opinions, too.

Wow, Louise, you're fast! You reply before I even manage to read through my own post!  ;D

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #168 on: March 06, 2010, 10:26:37 am »
Yes, but interestingly that goes to prove that the opposition in such a case is *not* mainly based on the need to protect property/financial interests, which is the legal argument used. If financial issues were all that was at stake IMO she could potentially have made more money from being more "considerate" or deliberately blind to fandom activities. (Though less so than any Fantasy writer, certainly.)
But the woman has emotions and a temperament and I can't fault her for that, though she is ... cranky. To say no more. I loved her rant after the Oscars, I shall have to take it when her ire is directed at my own opinions, too.

Wow, Louise, you're fast! You reply before I even manage to read through my own post!  ;D

This is where the law is used to abuse.  You see, Annie Proulx in sending those cease and desist orders, was not "in the right" - because the case did not come before a court.  And it should not be presumed that she was in the right, because there is a counter-argument that has only been brought out a few times, the counter-argument that fan fiction, particularly that fan fiction which casts characters in situations or in roles that could not and would not be considered the same context - i.e. a homosexual erotic encounter between Captain Kirk and Spock, for example - Roddenberry would never have written that plot, because it was not part of the oeuvre - but does serve as a commentary on the original, and as such would fall under "fair use"- for which transformative original work that references a copyrighted work, is legitimately used by another creator in an entirely new fashion which could not be mistaken for the original.  This argument has been used - with success - in advertisements.  No one could confuse Andy Warhol's Campbell Soup can for a can of Campbell's soup.  Would he be constrained by copyright law to not paint the soup can?  That's what we're talking about here - fanfiction is new original work that is a reference and commentary on the original.  It is not, not has it ever been, a theft of property, nor plagiarism, because it is not passing off another's labor as one's own for gain.

So in pursuing fan fiction writers whose work may indeed have enhanced the sale of the original work and kept it in the public eye - which is what fandoms do, as you rightly pointed out - and exerting the power of their millions and their lawyers to threaten and cow the less financially well off with fines they cannot afford to pay, they are abusing the law for their own sense of ownership; an ownership which is not proven, and not to be presumed.  They do not own the works that sprang from the imaginations of those whom they inspired - they never will.  They will, however, win their ill opinion.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #169 on: March 06, 2010, 11:44:45 am »
I think it was a deliberate and considered act to quash fandom, because they found it repugnant, specifically that Annie herself found it repugnant.

Tell you what, in view of some of the "slashier" stuff I've seen, I can't say as I blame her.  :-\  But let be, let be. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #170 on: March 06, 2010, 04:13:53 pm »
Tell you what, in view of some of the "slashier" stuff I've seen, I can't say as I blame her.  :-\  But let be, let be. ...

Yeah but as I said above, the right of parody and commentary is a protection afforded under the US First amendment.  And yes, parodies can be pretty repugnant.  I've had my work "parodied"- as well as my person, except that, as a private individual, impugning my reputation is a violation of my constitutional right to privacy.  Not so my stories, though.  Free speech, it's a wonderful thing, except when someone uses their free speech to mock yours.  Then it's a constitutionally protected PAIN IN THE ASS.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #171 on: March 06, 2010, 05:22:43 pm »
Yeah but as I said above, the right of parody and commentary is a protection afforded under the US First amendment.  And yes, parodies can be pretty repugnant.  I've had my work "parodied"- as well as my person, except that, as a private individual, impugning my reputation is a violation of my constitutional right to privacy.  Not so my stories, though.  Free speech, it's a wonderful thing, except when someone uses their free speech to mock yours.  Then it's a constitutionally protected PAIN IN THE ASS.

I didn't mean to excuse her (over)reaction, only to comment that in view of some of the stuff I've seen "out there," both in terms of content and writing, I can understand it if she were repulsed by it, and I sympathize with that response.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #172 on: March 06, 2010, 05:55:45 pm »
I've seen the personal replies to letters gay men have sent AP and they are very thoughtful, considerate, and compassionate. And these are handwritten letters. There are also men that she stays in contact with and encourages. In fact, she seems to me to be the embodiment of Mrs. Twist, understanding, perceptive, intuitive, long-suffering and patient. She harbors a deep anger, though, a righteous indignation, and a strong sense of justice and judgment.

Another reason that I believe AP is protective of her intellectual property is that she must be protecting the real life Ennis and Jack, and sees these fanfic publications as slanders against them and against the spirit of the real life people. AP has been married several times, and has three sons, and wrote for male oriented publications for many years, so I'm sure there is a real life Ennis somewhere.

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Offline Marina

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #173 on: March 09, 2010, 09:29:30 pm »

I came across this amazing article about one of Annie Proulx's recent writing projects, Red Desert.   This is why I love her - not only did she give us the beautiful short story of Brokeback Mountain, but now this:

http://www.hcn.org/issues/41.6/the-desert-that-breaks-annieproulxs-heart-wyoming/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=

I haven't seen this  book out yet?

I did happen to pick up Fine Just The Way It Is also.   :)
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #174 on: March 09, 2010, 09:51:22 pm »
Annie has been working on this book since at least 2007. Its publication was delayed. I'm excited to see it is finally out. It was meant to be a photography book and she was writing the preface, but her role may have been expanded since she wrote a great deal more than could be included. I went to a talk she gave in early 2007 where she read excerpts that she said could not be included for lack of space. They were fascinating.

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