Author Topic: ...if you don't get stomped winning it  (Read 5877 times)

Offline nakymaton

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...if you don't get stomped winning it
« on: July 31, 2006, 12:34:33 pm »
I could swear somebody brought up this conversation in the thread about lines that can be read more than one way:

(From memory; please correct me if you have the STS book available or if you have memorized the dialogue better than I have.  ;D )

Ennis: What's the point of riding a piece of stock for eight minutes?

Jack: Money's a good point.

Ennis: Sure enough. If you don't get stomped winning it, hunnh?

(Is there a "hunnh?" there? I *gasp* can't remember.)

I've been thinking about the conversation as a metaphor for taking risks in general. (For Ennis and Jack, it could be seen as a metaphor for taking risks in love in particular, but I especially relate to Ennis's POV here if I broaden the metaphor to include all kinds of risks.) Ennis is cautious about taking the risks and sees the potential dangers; Jack sees the rewards. And as somebody who yells "don't hit him, kiss him!" at Ennis during the "angry tussle" and who yells "turn around and go back!" to Jack after the divorce, well, I admit that sometimes I take the story as a lesson in the hazards of being too cautious in life.

But: whoa. Bull-riding as a metaphor for risks that we should just get up the nerve to take? You know, I was in a restaurant/sports bar Saturday night, and looked at the TV at the other end of the room to see what my three-year-old was staring at. It was professional bull-riding. And three things struck me. 1) Hey, the bull-rider being interviewed is wearing a blue denim shirt and black hat!  ;) 2) Yikes, why exactly are they showing a guy in a hospital bed? 3) Eek, my three-year-old is watching this and thinks it looks cool. No, honey, I'm not going to put you on the woolies. I don't want your oil getting checked by a horn dipstick someday, sweetie.

I mean: bull-riding is genuinely dangerous. Ennis has got a point. A real good point. And the money that Jack sees as the main reward -- most people don't win it. Jack certainly doesn't when he tries to make a living doing it.

And I guess Ennis has a darn good reason for not wanting to take the risk of living with Jack, too, given what Ennis saw as a child. Maybe the metaphor really is appropriate in Ennis's mind. But I don't want bull-riding to be the right metaphor, you know? I want the appropriate metaphor for risks in love to be, oh, maybe a water slide, something that looks really scary from the ground but is actually really fun and not dangerous at all.

But maybe this story is too dark for that.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 12:37:06 pm by nakymaton »
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2006, 02:23:31 pm »
I think there's a "hunh" there. Or possibly a "huh".

Quote
I mean: bull-riding is genuinely dangerous. Ennis has got a point. A real good point. And the money that Jack sees as the main reward -- most people don't win it. Jack certainly doesn't when he tries to make a living doing it.

[  ]But I don't want bull-riding to be the right metaphor, you know? I want the appropriate metaphor for risks in love to be, oh, maybe a water slide, something that looks really scary from the ground but is actually really fun and not dangerous at all.


I think that whole "what's the point" conversation is very illustrative of the duality in Jack's character that I may have happened to mention in another post...  ::)

The boy who grew up on that poor, dreary little farm knows he has to be able to present mundane, down-to-earth reasons for what he does. He has to even believe in them himself, far as they go. Hence the "money is a good point"-  whether it's riding bulls.... or marrying Lureen. But the money-earning reasons (the "realist" side) don't go far enough for Jack. Sometimes they go directly contrary to the "real" him. The other side of his character, (the "dreamer"), an even more important driving force IMO, has him do things not mainly for mundane reasons but inspired by long-reaching dreams, strong emotions, self-insight...... and motivated by a pairing of thrill-seeking and acceptance that taking risks may be necessary to achieve his most important (and non-monetary) goals.

He faced the dangers of bull-riding much more in order to gain his father's approval, to experience thrills, to be noticed as *someone* in the crowd.... than in order to earn money, I think. Though he had to earn money to live - noone can deny the realism in that.  Correspondingly there is his "safe", lucrative marriage - and that undeniable willingness to take risks in love - from the moment he takes Ennis's hand in the first tent scene (could have gotten him stomped on real good....), via his willingness to run that little cow and calf operation despite knowing and being reminded of the real dangers to men taking such a chance. And, in my view, - in the end his deliberate risktaking in love (or rather, in living out his sexuality) makes him just daring enough to get him noticed by the wrong people - and so he ends out *literally* being stomped on, (that big boot stomping him thoroughly in the crotch....  >:( ) and killed.

He rode it for as long as he could - and it wasn't safety or money made him do it, but a longing to live as his true self and to live according to his dreams and desires. But in the end that got him killed.

So yeah, the bullriding's a very good methaphor. Though I wish it wasn't.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 02:33:18 pm by Mikaela »

Offline nakymaton

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2006, 12:40:10 pm »
Good for you for taking the chances, goadra. Since you're here talking, can I assume you didn't get stomped?

I wondered about the metaphor, in part because I am a big chicken about a lot of things, and I feel pretty silly about it a lot. But perhaps the metaphor is realistic -- that really important chances really are risky.

Mikaela -- yeah, I don't see money as being the driving force behind Jack, either. I agree, he's more of a dreamer than that. But does the money work as a metaphor for other rewards that are worth risking everything for?
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2006, 05:55:13 pm »
Quote
But does the money work as a metaphor for other rewards that are worth risking everything for?

I can't really manage to see that... I don't think money works as a methaphor, we've all got too many preconceived notions related to (the struggle for) money. It's simply too realistic that the guys would necessarily have to strive for money, and have to focus on how to get hold of it, and that the portrayal of their lives must show that..... It's intended as a deliberate contrast I'd say - since what Jack is seeking despite his "money's a good point" can't be bought.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2006, 12:56:53 am »
I am not saying Jack didn’t care about money or that he threw it around, but perhaps he never thought about money the way Ennis did.

All good points, Barbara!  :) Clearly there was a slight class difference between Jack and Ennis even when they met, and it got wider as they went along.

There is one thing that suggests Jack did care about money: he married Lureen.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2006, 05:06:55 pm »
Oh, Jack cared about money. Part of his dreams surely had to do with more affluent living, getting away from the poverty of Lightning Flat. And as he got used to *having* money, I think he'd have had a hard time giving it up. But nevertheless his most cherished dreams, his deepest wish, had nothing to do with money. I think he'd have happily lived in poverty with Ennis, if they could only be together.

I've always thought that Lureen's money served mainly as Jack's "sanitized-for-Ennis" reason for marrying her rather than the one, big, true and only reason. It was *one* reason for marrying her, sure - but there were so many others and in my view at that point in his life those were the companionship and closeness she offered in his loneliness, and the admiration (and self-esteem at having snagged the rodeo queen) she offered when he was feeling rather like a failure, and the safety in "straight normalcy" she was offering when he may have risked being outed by the likes of Jimbo.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2006, 06:20:36 pm »
I agree with everything you just said, Lisa!

 :D

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2006, 08:51:39 pm »
Yes, nakymaton, there is positively a "huh" at the end of Ennis's comment.

I watch Pro Bull Riding a lot, and quess what?  Half of the riders are wearing blue denim shirts and black hats.  There is a larger variety of shirts available to these "cowboys", but usually hat choices are black, white, ivory, grey, brown..depending on you mood for any given day, I guess.

As for the year's earning of $2000 in 1964, compare that to my income of about $7000, but factor in that I worked 12 months a year; rodeo cowboys were seasonal, still are, at about 4 months.  So, I think $2000 for an average of 3.2 secs per ride, 3-5  rides per week, approximately 15-20 weeks per year, less his costs (clothes, gear, medical costs for injury, traveling, food on the road) was poverty level.  Top rodeo cowboys today are earning upwards of $1 million plus endorsements.  But is it worth all those broken bones, brain concussions, possibility of never having offspring?  I happened to see an event just 2 nights ago where the rider wa thrown but got caught up in his rope and was left dangling from the bull until ole "Jimbo" was able to pull him loose.  In the meantime, he suffered separated shoulder, brain concussion, broken wrist, and a stomp to the gonads that would have made scrambbled eggs!
Risks?  A very big YES.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 08:53:17 pm by [email protected] »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2006, 11:39:36 pm »
Just a quick comment about the conversation on Brokeback about rodeoing and money.  It always seems to me that the conversation here is meant to illustrate the line in the book about being "respectful of each other's opinions".  When Ennis says "sure enough" to Jack's response that money is a good point in favor of rodeoing... that "respectful" line always comes to mind for me.  It's clear he disagrees, but he's willing to concede a point to Jack.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2006, 02:01:36 pm »
Quote
It always seems to me that the conversation here is meant to illustrate the line in the book about being "respectful of each other's opinions".

I agree. And in so doing (or being), Ennis comes closer to voicing his real opinion than Jack does where the bull-riding is concerned. Jack's main motivation isn't money, but (I think) the exhilarating rush, the ultimate living-in-the-moment feeling that the bull-ride provides. I bet he feels keenly *alive* during those 8 seconds - and there's no possibility of planning ahead or doing anything but *being*.
(There's also the wish for his father's approval thrown into the mix of Jack's reasons, of course).

While Ennis, I suspect, only to a very small extent if at all agrees that "money's a good point" in this case. Knowing his character, in all likelihood he would focus on the risks and would think that the possible rewards did not by any means outweigh the risks. So "If you don't get stomped winning them" certainly is true, unabashed Ennis the worrier.

I've just been re-reading the short story, and in connection with this "being stomped" discussion I especially noted the description of Jack's and Ennis's last "fishing trip" together, in May 1983: Ennis worries the weather will deteriorate, looking west for clouds, anticipating rain or snow - and after 3 days his expectiation proves true(!).  While Jack focuses on enjoying the beauty of the moment: "The boneless blue was so deep, said Jack, that he might drown looking up."

Then they reach the river and Jack dismounts to drink - beautiful, crystalline drops. Once more, he's following his need of the moment. While Ennis worries ahead as usual: "Get beaver fever doing that".

Ennis worries for the future and the consequences of his/their action. Jack lives in the moment, enjoys the beauty of simply "feeling alive" - even if he has to take risks to do so.

They approach bullriding in much the same manner, IMO.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 02:06:14 pm by Mikaela »

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2006, 02:21:35 pm »
Very perceptive. I love the last part about Jack living in the moment, while Ennis is a worrier. So true!
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2006, 11:17:32 am »
Who/what stomped John, what happened to make him who he is at the film? Were John’s bull-riding glory days before Jack was born? If so, how did Jack find out that his father was well-known? What happened to the money he earned--how did the Twist family wind up on a lonesome old ranch?

My own theory is that Jack's father wasn't as successful in rodeo as Jack "remembers" him being, which isn't unusual. People often form childhood impressions of parents that they carry into adulthood. He might have been a very disappointed man, and might have actually hoped that Jack wouldn't try to follow in his father's footsteps. And there was some kind of issue about Jack's marriage implied in the line "thought he was too damn special to be bured in the family plot."  IMO, there was a lot tangled family relationships implied in that scene, with very brief dialogue.

Offline Lynne

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Re: ...if you don't get stomped winning it
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2006, 03:47:35 am »
*bump*
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