Author Topic: TOTW 03/09: What Was the Attraction?  (Read 19642 times)

Offline LauraGigs

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TOTW 03/09: What Was the Attraction?
« on: May 25, 2009, 05:48:19 pm »
Many facets of the Jack + Ennis relationship have been discussed.  But what of the origin of it?
(The feelings that started it all, and the ones that kept them together despite the obstacles?)

What do you think the attraction was?  Each of them had met and worked with many other people.  Why was this different?  What attracted Jack to Ennis?  What attracted Ennis to Jack?


« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 05:42:49 am by Penthesilea »

Offline ohiomyown

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 07:36:03 pm »
In my opinion, the attraction was a learned one, not instantaneous; it was not based on looks.
They each possessed the qualities that the other needed to complete them. 

First came respect when they each saw that the other pitched in and worked just as hard
as they did.  They were good partners and each knew the right way to prepare a campsite
and tend sheep.

Steady, hard working Ennis found fun and laughter with talkative Jack.  Jack asked a lot of
questions, but unlike many people he listened to Ennis.

Jack was attracted to the quiet thoughtfulness of Ennis, he looked up to him because he was solid.

They had empathy and compassion for each other's hard life.

Eventually, they found a friend who treated them fairly and enjoyed their company.  It's hard to
resist someone who Likes you a lot.

Finally, they were total babes,  and they couldn't get enough of each other!
Judy

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 09:05:42 pm »
I think looks had a lot to do with it,  but in Jack's case, I'm sure he was attracted to and fascinated by Ennis' work ethic and his capacity to grin and bear it.  I think Jack saw Ennis as a sort of challenge: he wanted to see if he could pull solid, stoic Ennis out of his shell.

Ennis was certainly attracted to Jack's jest for life.  Jack had a can do attitude, and he actually dared to dream that a good life was within his grasp.  Jack also listened to every word that Ennis spoke, and that flattered Ennis.  Jack made Ennis happy.  He was solicitous and supportive: very attractive to a lonely man like Ennis.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2009, 09:27:16 pm »
I actually think they were attracted to each other at first glance.  I think that's what the silent beginning of the movie is meant to convey.  The stolen glances, Jack's posturing against the truck, etc., I think were all meant to indicate they were immediately interested in each other.  I think the silence also indicates that the attraction, initially, was already physical and based on visual attraction.  Ennis sneaking glances at Jack on Brokeback prior to TS1 seem to echo the very early stolen glances that occur during the opening minutes of the film.

I also think the early bar scene (the scene from which the banner pic of Jack was taken) is meant to convey many symbols of attraction.  For instance, behind Ennis's head there is a dart board (you only see it when he moves his head around and when the camera is at certain angles).  I interpret the darts to be a very conventional symbol of the "prick of Cupid's darts or arrows."  And, Jack is literally "sitting in a ray of sunshine" in that early bar scene... from Ennis's POV, Jack already is in the role of a beloved or object of attraction.  Also, we've discussed the importance of the motion of Ennis and Jack's hands on their respective beer bottles... and the snap of attraction indicated by the shared lighter.  Fire, I think throughout the film is a symbol of attraction for Jack and Ennis.  In fact, I think Ang Lee loads the  beginning part of the film with almost over-determined symbols for attraction (while all of this, of course, remains unspoken).

So, initally, I think their attraction is like many couple's inital attraction.  Physical, a desire to listen to one another and to attract the attention of the other, etc.  But as their friendship/ relationship progresses things get much deeper.  Eventually, I think their attraction has everything to do with the yin and yang symbol.  They realize they're bound to one another because each one embodies character traits (often opposite traits) that the other one desperately needs to be complete and fulfilled.


« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 10:14:14 am by atz75 »
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Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 11:16:02 pm »
I think Jack was eyeing Ennis off from the start, when he was looking at him thru the rear view mirror, and I think he was attracted to him from then...physically.

At that time, when Ennis sneaked a peek at Jack, I think he was thinking "who's this dude, why is he looking at me like that?"

Within days I think they had developed a mutual respect for each other, with both of them working together as hard as each other. And as has been said before, they listened to each other and both showed an interest in each other's past. I think Ennis felt comfortable with Jack, as is shown by how much he opened up to Jack, something he had obviously not felt before.

The first time I noticed an intimate attraction from Jack, was after Ennis fell off the horse, and the gentle way, Jack wiped his face, it was more than just a buddy type thing, it was something more, and I think Ennis noticed it too, thats why he grabbed the cloth from him.

I think Ennis was maybe noticing that the attraction Jack had for him, was a little bit more than what is usual for a couple of blokes to have, but I dont really think Ennis was looking or feeling that way towards Jack, he felt comfortable, he felt relaxed, he lked Jack's company, probably better than any other man he had kept company with, but I do not think the feeling was attraction and definately not, sexual attraction.

That did not happen until after TS1......when he rode up to the mountain, and gave himself space to think about what had happened, and exactly what he was feeling. I really dont think it was until that time on the mountain, when they had the "I aint queer" conversation, that Ennis felt more of an attraction to Jack, and from then it just got stronger and stronger.
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Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 01:35:45 am »
I LOVE this subject.

I´ll think about it during the day and come back after work. Looking forward to reading eveyone else´s replies too of course

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2009, 01:36:54 am »




In the end, I think their relationship/attraction has everything to do with the







Yes??  Talk about a cliffhanger!

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2009, 01:55:18 am »



Yes??  Talk about a cliffhanger!

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

We are all sitting here waiting with baited breath........
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2009, 10:25:59 am »



Yes??  Talk about a cliffhanger!

LOL!!   :laugh:

Sorry Buds!  It was just a typo.  I was editting/ re-writing the last paragraph of my post and that little phrase ended up as a straggler at the end there.  It was an earlier version of the observation at the end of my post:

Quote
Eventually, I think their attraction has everything to do with the yin and yang symbol.  They realize they're bound to one another because each one embodies character traits (often opposite traits) that the other one desperately needs to be complete and fulfilled.

I just neglected to delete that extraneous bit at the end.
Sorry to have raised everyone's curiosity... only to have this kind of anticlimactic answer for you.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2009, 05:14:51 pm »
He´s kinda hot


Hm...


Check me out...come on



Jack: Not too shabby close up either....
Ennis: Uhm...



Maybe he´s pretty nice too



Why is he interested in listening to my shit? And why am I telling him my shit?




Both: This summer won´t be too bad after all...he can at least work



Hot...but there´s more to him


He´s pretty fun to hang with...but there is something else too....



Jack: Shit...Need to touch...
Ennis: He´s too close



Jack: Wow...he´s like a real cowboy
Ennis: I want to impress him...don´t know why, though.








He does it for me, I know it ain´t no fun up there. He´s doing it for me...why would anyone do something like that for me?




Naked...naked...potatoes...naked....




Shit...I´m falling hard...can´t hardly look at him



Maybe he really cares? Maybe we´re friends?



Jack: Yes! Fuck yes!
Ennis: What is this?



I want him that way. I´m dead.


« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 08:00:06 am by Buffymon »

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2009, 05:20:24 pm »
That was wonderful Buffy......
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2009, 06:22:00 pm »
I dont agree that Ennis had anything sexual on his mind, until TS1.
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Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2009, 06:59:22 pm »
that's a female view of a man's experience. Both in the SS and the film, ennis' inner self-doubt and yearnings were subtle and typical of a man in his situation. Again, good reading in the modern manhood blog.

Yes, I agree, its my point of view, but not necessarily a "woman's" point of view, maybe more a "straight" point of view.

If a straight person, man or woman, started watching that movie, not knowing a single thing about the story, I doubt if they would have seen any sexual attraction from Ennis. It would not be in our phsych to think of it.

They might notice a bit of extra touchy feely from Jack, though.

Just my POV.
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline ohiomyown

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2009, 07:48:50 pm »
Fair enough. but, we do know that both men were, in fact, inclined toward homosexuality. At 19, they were within their peak years of sexual motivation. Their location, situations, knowledge and awareness bases inhibited much direct or overt expressions, and that is what made the story so filled with anticipation--when, where, how, how much would their initial attraction lead?

I feel confident that neither ennis or jack would have responded positively to the other had their been a 'gayness' about his character or behavior. No way. It was outward shroud of masculinity with a difficult to determine undercurrent of sexual allure and curiousity that led to step two, imo and experience.

Personally, Jeff, I want to hear more details about the undercurrents of sexual allure . . in your experience! :-*
JKaiser

Offline ohiomyown

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2009, 07:51:23 pm »
That was wonderful Buffy......

Buffymon !   I agree with Katie , This was lovely.  You are quite talented . . . 
Judy

Offline ohiomyown

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2009, 08:02:18 pm »
Even waterboarding wouldn't get that out of me!  ;D

Oh shoot!

Offline Kerry

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2009, 08:45:18 pm »
This is such a fascinating topic and I have very much enjoyed reading all the different points of view expressed. I particularly enjoyed Buffymon's photo montage. Thank you Buffymon. I've been trying to clarify my own thoughts on this. And try as I might, I just can't seem to do it. It's very difficult to define what exactly happens when two people fall in love. It's a mysterious thing. Indefinable. A feeling in the gut, not in the intellect. And certainly not in the vocabulary. I'm not saying that it's totally impossible to describe, just that I personally am incapable of doing so. I remember when I saw my George for the first time. It was then that I realized what the expression "butterflies in the stomach" meant. How can one define such a mysterious, irrational phenomenon? Anyone who has ever fallen in love will know what I'm trying to rattle on about. I suspect that neither Jack nor Ennis had any idea of what was happening to them. And by the time they did, it was too late. They were "each glad to have a companion where none had been expected."  They were hooked. They were in love.
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Offline Marina

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2009, 09:16:55 pm »
What a great topic!  I've thought about this a lot too - what attracted them in the first place. 

They were "each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." 

This came to my mind as well - they were both sort of thrown together for the summer, whether they liked each other or not, just the two of them in that beautiful but isolated environment, and having to rely on each other, so I always think they grew to love each other over time.    If it had been in another time, another place, it might not have happened.

When they first meet each other waiting at the trailer, Ennis is just so closed off, fidgeting, almost intimidated.   Jack is more outgoing and curious about this other guy he'll be working with, but I think he had a little bit of fear as well, only where Ennis pushes his feeling down and inward, Jack's are more outward, a lot of showy swagger and bravado, but they each share the same feeling, I think, both 19 years old, unsure of themselves, lonely, especially Ennis, trying to make their way in the world and already having received a few hard knocks in life.    Ennis I think found Jack curious in the beginning, and is pleasantly confused by Jack's being so talkative, and Jack brings Ennis out of himself.   It's such a huge turning point when he says "That's more 'n I spoke in a year."  I don't wonder if Jack had another same sex experience or two before they met, because he seems a lot more comfortable with his feelings than Ennis does, or maybe he's just one of those people who goes with what he feels, even in such a repressive time.   But he certainly brought out deep, strong emotions in Ennis, not just the intensity of their sexual feelings, but other emotions, like love.   I think everyone can identify with that kind of youthful love, when it's given so freely, nothing you've ever felt before, and as Judy said above, they complemented each other too.   I always think of a line from a song "a strong heart flows over, and empty heart fills."   Just my opinion.  :)
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Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2009, 09:35:32 pm »
You know, maybe they didn't realize it was actual LOVE until they saw each other at their reunion.

There is no doubt they were attracted, playful, comfortable and sexual with one another on the mountain, but they still could walk away from one another after that, not knowing if they would ever see each other again.

The reunion scene was such an awakening of outward emotion, that once they locked together, they both knew that they were never ever not going to have each other in their life.
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Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2009, 11:16:56 pm »
You know, maybe they didn't realize it was actual LOVE until they saw each other at their reunion.

That´s how I think about it. I think it was first then that they realised how strong their bond was, that´s it indeed wasn´t a one shot thing.

Offline ohiomyown

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2009, 12:40:14 am »
but they still could walk away from one another after that, not knowing if they would ever see each other again.

No, I cannot agree that they "could walk away from one another".   As I saw it they crawled away from one another - in misery.
Ennis with his head down, retching in an alley, his guts feeling like they were being pulled out of him, hand over hand.
Jack driving slowly down the street, unable to look ahead, but could only look in the rearview mirror, hoping Ennis would flag him down
and either go with him or stop him from leaving.  They knew - but also knew this was expected of them . .  to go forward.

I have never liked or agreed with Annie Proulx giving Ennis the line "took me about a year to figure out I should never a let you outa my sights."
*paraphrased, of course*  It's my opinion that he knew it was a mistake to let Jack drive off - but was helpless to even imagine a way to shape a future so far out of society's acceptance - or his own acceptance, for that matter.

BTW, might as well open up this other can of worms . .  any normal people who had worked together all summer, and who could stand each other even a little bit would have parted differently than AP had them part.  Jack would have offered Ennis a ride to the highway at the very least.  They had come down a month early,  neither one was expected anywhere in a big hurry, so Jack conceivably could have offered to take him all the way or part way to Riverton.  But I think they (Ang, AP) didn't allow that - cause once Ennis was in Jack's truck, they'd have more freedom.  They might start thinking creatively (after they had sex 16 times, of course)  about their future.  Anyone ever think it strange how they parted?
Judy

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2009, 12:47:37 am »
Monika, I love your captioned image series.  Love love love it.  I would love to figure out a way for it to be stand alone visible for everyone to see.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2009, 12:53:35 am »
Monika, I love your captioned image series.  Love love love it.  I would love to figure out a way for it to be stand alone visible for everyone to see.

I know! Monika, you did an amazing job with those. The captions were perfect! Fabulous.


Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2009, 01:28:00 am »
BTW, might as well open up this other can of worms . .  any normal people who had worked together all summer, and who could stand each other even a little bit would have parted differently than AP had them part.  Jack would have offered Ennis a ride to the highway at the very least.  They had come down a month early,  neither one was expected anywhere in a big hurry, so Jack conceivably could have offered to take him all the way or part way to Riverton.  But I think they (Ang, AP) didn't allow that - cause once Ennis was in Jack's truck, they'd have more freedom.  They might start thinking creatively (after they had sex 16 times, of course)  about their future.  Anyone ever think it strange how they parted?
Judy

Yeah, the "why didn't Jack offer Ennis a ride?" question came up before.
This question works only for the movie, though. In the short story, Ennis had his own truck, and the parting was a bit different:

"Right," said Jack, and they shook hands, hit each other on the shoulder, then there were forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions.

They did go through the "normal" parting process of two guys who had worked together all summer and liked each other - in the way socially acceptable for two guys: shake hands, give each other a slap on the shoulder. That's about as much affection as two guys can show openly (given the time and setting of the story).
And offering a ride wasn't in the cards, obviously, when both had trucks.

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2009, 01:54:39 am »
The parting scene...it's so hard to say because we only have glimpses of what happened up on Brokeback. But I think that Ennis made it very clear to Jack that it only was a one-shot thing and that's why Jack doesn't push the issue once it's time to part ways, and why he doesn't offer Ennis a ride. Jack knows they are gonna go their separate ways, and wants to do it as painless and quick as possible. And that's also why there are no hugs, or holding of hands. To do that would just be too awkward.
 Ennis is, as he is throughout the movie, convinced that "it can't be fixed" whatever feelings he might have for Jack.






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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2009, 12:08:40 pm »
I always felt that Ennis knew what he was feeling for Jack once they came down from BBM. hence the alley scene.It gives more away in the S.S as it is described as," Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out, hand over hand a yard at a time."
Later on at the reunion scene, he tels Jack it took him a year to figure out that he should never gave let Jack out of his sights. Then comes for me one of the saddest lines in the S.S. 'too late then by a long, long while"

It is so devastating to hear Ennis in effect admit to what he was feeling, I wanted to jump up and down for joy, and run round saying, Oh yes, oH yes , he gets it !!
Then my heart dropped like a brick when he says it was already too late then. I sometimes scream at both the book and film at those points. In the alley scene in the film I'm shouting run after him you idiot, you will never get this chance again.

In the S.S, reunion scene, I want to scream at him when Jack says we got to figure what to do, and Ennis responds, "I doubt there's nothin now we can do " Yes there is you idiot, grab what you both have and run as if the devil himself was on your heels.

I read the S.S first and I just knew then, there was going to be no happy ending. I also knew that they were both not only in love with each other, but that Jack's ever present optimism would not save the day. I remember listening to coldplay, fix you and thinking how appropriate the words are. " when you love someone but it goes to waste, could it be worse"

So what was the original attraction,maybe it was simply the fact that Jack liked to talk and found a listener with Ennis. Then as time progressed Ennis, naturally taciturn slowly discovers that it is quite refreshing for a change to do some talking himself. The both drew things out of each other, allowing each the time to slowly blossom and become, particularly Ennis,more rounded beings.Ennis admits he has talked more than he has in the past year. There is no recrimination there, it is an admission of fact and even surprise that he actually enjoys talking.
In the film I am sure looks played some part in the attraction, although I am not convinced that at the time Ennis had the slightest clue what was happening,but the look J ack gives Ennis when he firsts sees him is IMO definitely one of attraction.Ennis seems more to be checking out this guy who he is going to be spending the summer with.
In the S.S I love the way that mention is made of the fact that less and less time is spent with the sheep and more with each other, this even before TS1. It almost resembles a courtship dance, nothing admitted, yet at the same time an unspoken desire to spend more time with each other, and less doing their job. For me the S.S is more illuminating than the film, where after TS1  it says " without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned"
Interesting too is the use of the word damned, with all its connotations, particularly for Ennis.
It always seems to come back to the same thing though, that opposite attracts, and when attraction and love grab you, most people are poweless to resist, no matter how hard they may try.
As the words "there aint no reins on this one" so powerfully indicates. It is a force which is out of control and at the same time uncontrollable. You can turn your back, you can run a million miles, but you will not escape, indeed how could you ever, that love is now internalised, it is part of the very fabric that is you, it adds a new dimension to you and therefore in part defines you.
To try and run from it, is as futile as thinking if you run far enough and fast enough you will escape from yourself.


Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2009, 04:49:45 pm »
Regarding the line....It took me a year to figure out........

I think that has to do with his marriage to Alma, and the feelings he had with her, compared to the feelings he felt being with Jack. When he left Jack after Brokeback, he had his plans to marry Alma, that is why he did not think of anything happening again with Jack. Obviously, not long into the marriage, he realized that he did not feel the same about Alma as he did about Jack, but by then Alma Jnr was on the way, or born, and it was too late.



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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2009, 06:56:42 pm »
I also have enjoyed reading the responses here, especially the many responses from new people. I'm so glad you all have been inspired to write! A related question could be "was it love at first sight?" I for one believe that it was. I believe in love at first sight, because it has happened to me. I think there is something instinctive that helps us recognize a person who would be an ideal partner. Think about it...we go through our daily lives interacting with many people and then, one day, someone comes along who knocks us off our feet. What is it about that one person? It may be the sound of their voice, their smell, or the way they look. It could be a subliminal something. But, maybe I'm overthinking it. I look at Jack and Ennis and think, what's not to be attracted to??
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Offline sel

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2009, 05:16:30 am »
Buffymon,
I enjoyed the picture-story very much.

This thread, for me, has brought back a "tsunami" of emotions, it felt like when I watched BbM for the first time, and didn't know what the hell was happening to me.
Since I watched the movie the first time and read the SS (after seeing the movie) other Brokies'point of view have helped me in getting a better understanding of Jack's and Ennis's feelings.
This is my point of view as it stands now.

I agree with Fiona on:

In the S.S I love the way that mention is made of the fact that less and less time is spent with the sheep and more with each other, this even before TS1. It almost resembles a courtship dance, nothing admitted, yet at the same time an unspoken desire to spend more time with each other, and less doing their job. For me the S.S is more illuminating than the film, where after TS1  it says " without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned"

I will add:

"They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis riding against the wind to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he's never had such good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon".

From that I have always got the impression that Ennis up to that moment had  never been that happy in his life, by Jack he was accepted the way he was, taciturn and reserved.
IMO for Jack it was more of a love at first sight, whereas for Ennis the falling in love was gradual, Ennis learnt to appreciate Jack as a person and the way Jack treated him.

When it comes to TSN1 I have always felt that Ennis wasn't that unprepared at all.  Annie Proulx writes ".... nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed". I have always interpreted that as "They were 19, had their sexual fantasies, Ennis might have tried to push a certain type of fantasy right at the back of his mind but not so successfully. When TSN1 happened he grabbed it, he knew what to do, never mind that later he said to Jack he was a one shot thing. By TSN1 they were in love."
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Offline loreen

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2009, 11:54:09 am »
Great topic!

I believe that Ennis looked upon Jack, his easy way, talking , dreams, singing... everything seemed so easy for Jack. I believe that impressed Ennis... OK; besides other things... ::)

Jack, on the other side, wanted to pull out the beauty of Ennis's soul, which he believed was hidden deep inside his fears and childhood trauma.

I know that it is a simple way of seeing it, and I'd add the freedom of the mountain, the fact that they only had each other, the physical attraction, their youth  and many other things. Still fro Jack was a certain thrill of chase, and for Ennis an admiration for his new friend who accepted him so naturally and easy.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2009, 12:29:47 pm »
What a lovely post, loreen! Yes, I can see that!
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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2009, 02:28:22 pm »
Thank you! :)




Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2009, 02:54:51 pm »
It is interesting that everything does seem to come quite easily to Jack, nothing dents his enthusiasm until much later. Yet when Ennis visits the Twist family home, he realises just how far Jack has travelled.
I always find it quite unbearably sad that in the end, and in spite of what they have experienced, physically at least, neither of them has actually travelled that far. Jack is back in the home he grew up in,and was so desperate to escape, not even his request for his ashes is respected, Ennis is in his trailer and in the S.S we are led to believe is moving on yet again.
Emotionally we will never know how far Jack had journeyed, Ennis we are at least shown a glimpse of the beginnings of an emotional breakthrough.
To me, both the s.s and the film end with no real inner peace for either Jack or Ennis. The euphoria they both experienced on BBM was never again captured. There would be some closure, if Jack had at least been able to have his ashes scattered there, in time Ennis too could have joined him.
If the Twists really knew about Jack and Ennis and the almost mythical BBM, then it is an act of monumental cruelty, for OMT not to have carried out his only child's wishes.
It also strikes me as slightly out of kilter with what we know of the  religious proclivities, of at least Jack's mum. Is it not one of the most heinous crimes, for church going beings, not to carry out the wishes of the deceased. It only reinforces for me, the cruelty of OMT. I am certain that his wife would have been more than happy to make sure Jack was laid to rest where he had asked.
Oh my, this film and story still have such an emotional impact even after all this time. I am not particularly religious but to think that someone has no peace, even in death, delivers an almighty blow to the heart.

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2009, 03:11:48 pm »
It is interesting that everything does seem to come quite easily to Jack, nothing dents his enthusiasm until much later. Yet when Ennis visits the Twist family home, he realises just how far Jack has travelled.
I always find it quite unbearably sad that in the end, and in spite of what they have experienced, physically at least, neither of them has actually travelled that far. Jack is back in the home he grew up in,and was so desperate to escape, not even his request for his ashes is respected, Ennis is in his trailer and in the S.S we are led to believe is moving on yet again.
Emotionally we will never know how far Jack had journeyed, Ennis we are at least shown a glimpse of the beginnings of an emotional breakthrough.
To me, both the s.s and the film end with no real inner peace for either Jack or Ennis. The euphoria they both experienced on BBM was never again captured. There would be some closure, if Jack had at least been able to have his ashes scattered there, in time Ennis too could have joined him.
If the Twists really knew about Jack and Ennis and the almost mythical BBM, then it is an act of monumental cruelty, for OMT not to have carried out his only child's wishes.
It also strikes me as slightly out of kilter with what we know of the  religious proclivities, of at least Jack's mum. Is it not one of the most heinous crimes, for church going beings, not to carry out the wishes of the deceased. It only reinforces for me, the cruelty of OMT. I am certain that his wife would have been more than happy to make sure Jack was laid to rest where he had asked.
Oh my, this film and story still have such an emotional impact even after all this time. I am not particularly religious but to think that someone has no peace, even in death, delivers an almighty blow to the heart.

Thanks for the post, Fiona. Beautiful and heartbreaking indeed.
No, we never quite how far Jack travelled emotionally. I've my theories though 8)
I've always thought of him as very needy, craving love and acceptance (which he never got from his dad). I don't think that changed much over the years and I think that was what drove him back to Ennis time after time. I think the only time that he ever felt fulfilled and accepted for who he really was, was that distant summer on Brokeback Mountain and I think he spent the rest of his life trying to recreate it. But as you pointed out, in the end he ends up back home with his parents who doesn't even carry out his last wishes.

There are some scenes with Jack that I'd have loved to have seen. Like when he steals Ennis's shirt or when he hung it in his closet. Did he get the shirts out and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose everytime he visited his parents? There is still so much about Jack that is a mystery to us.


Jack's faith reminds me of the story Ralph tells Maggie in the TV series "The Thorn birds"

"There's a story... a legend, about a bird that sings just once in its life. From the moment it leaves its nest, it searches for a thorn tree... and never rests until it's found one. And then it sings... more sweetly than any other creature on the face of the earth. And singing, it impales itself on the longest, sharpest thorn. But, as it dies, it rises above its own agony, to outsing the lark and the nightingale. The thorn bird pays its life for just one song, but the whole world stills to listen, and God in his heaven smiles. "

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2009, 04:48:02 pm »
OMG I had forgotten that beautiful passage. I was entranced with The Thorn Birds as a teenager, Richard Chamberlain in a cassock was not too hard to watch either !

I absolutely love those words, they tear,  my very soul apart, what a perfect example of Bittersweet. Like you I also wonder about the Jack we do not see,more so than Ennis. Does he as you say, go upstairs to his room and try to  breathe in the very essence of Ennis and BBM. Does he cry as he recalls the idyllic summer that was Brokeback.
I so often think of Jack as the being like a candle flickering in the breeze, close to being extinguished and yet somehow managing to burn for a little while longer. It would be glorious and much easier to imagine Jack as the eternal flame,clinging onto a vague yet ever dimming hope of some solace around the next bend. The words in the story, "let be, let be" seem to indicate that as he recalls and relishes the moment of the dozy embrace, he dare not allow himself to think more deeply.That to me seems to indicate that although outwardly optimistic, his inner self knows the reality and as such any exploration of the true situation is too much to even contemplate.

O.T. thankyou for reprising that wonderful passage from the thorn birds. Would that we could all go at the moment of of our greatest peace.To soar above earthly pain and rise,  as Annie so beautifully writes, to that "moment of artless , charmed happiness"

Does BBM ever let go I wonder, or will I be forever be  held  captive within its spell ?

Offline Kerry

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2009, 07:45:08 pm »

I absolutely love those words, they tear,  my very soul apart, what a perfect example of Bittersweet. Like you I also wonder about the Jack we do not see,more so than Ennis. Does he as you say, go upstairs to his room and try to  breathe in the very essence of Ennis and BBM. Does he cry as he recalls the idyllic summer that was Brokeback.

Does BBM ever let go I wonder, or will I be forever be  held  captive within its spell ?


Does BBM ever let go? Well, in my own case, I thought I was pretty much all cried out. Until, that is, I read what you wrote above. And back again the tears came.  Looks like I'm a captive for life and I'm at peace with that.
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Offline bailey1205

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2009, 11:50:48 am »
I am happy to see folks on here referring to the SS.

When I think of BBM, more and more I think of the SS.
I get a better understanding of how the boys became attracted to one another.

They were both lonely young men, that probably never had a friend.
Someone that listened.  Cared about each other feelings.

The movie paints Ennis to be more closed off then the way I read the SS.
SS Ennis was more vocal about his feelings, although I really don't think
he was completely able to comprehend that what his feelings were were love
until after their reunion.





Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2009, 12:00:41 pm »
although I really don't think
he was completely able to comprehend that what his feelings were were love
until after their reunion.


Do you think that Jack realised it earlier or at the same time as Ennis, Bailey?

Offline bailey1205

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2009, 12:46:34 pm »
Do you think that Jack realised it earlier or at the same time as Ennis, Bailey?

Oh, I do think Jack realized it while on that mountain.

He knew Ennis was skittish about the 'queer' part.

It was actually Jack in the SS that said it was a one shot thing, nobody's business but ours.

I think when they both came down off that mountain, they both knew something special happened
between them, but they didn't know how to articulate it.

As Ennis said in the reunion...... I been setting up here all this time wondering if I was..............

then he went on to say I know I ain't.


Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2009, 06:04:09 pm »
Oh, I do think Jack realized it while on that mountain.

He knew Ennis was skittish about the 'queer' part.

It was actually Jack in the SS that said it was a one shot thing, nobody's business but ours.

I think when they both came down off that mountain, they both knew something special happened
between them, but they didn't know how to articulate it.

As Ennis said in the reunion...... I been setting up here all this time wondering if I was..............

then he went on to say I know I ain't.


I think that line says exactly how Ennis was feeling.......to accept he was in love with Jack, was to him, admitting he was queer....he really did not want to think of himself as queer.

Even at the reunion, he is still reinforcing, that he "knows he aint".......was marrying Alma and being able to make love to a woman, his justification that he was not?

It seems he was more concerned about thinking himself queer, than anything else.
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Offline bailey1205

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2009, 06:56:11 pm »
I think that line says exactly how Ennis was feeling.......to accept he was in love with Jack, was to him, admitting he was queer....he really did not want to think of himself as queer.

Even at the reunion, he is still reinforcing, that he "knows he aint".......was marrying Alma and being able to make love to a woman, his justification that he was not?

It seems he was more concerned about thinking himself queer, than anything else.

Yep !

I think his fear of thinking of himself as queer was bigger then his fear of the tire iron.


Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2009, 09:08:34 am »

He does it for me, I know it ain´t no fun up there. He´s doing it for me...why would anyone do something like that for me?



You know, after all this time, I never thought of this scene that way.  I always thought Ennis was just tired of hearin' Jack's bitchin' and complainin'.  This is a much nicer way to view the scene.  Thank you   :)

It's amazing after all these years we still can become enlightened...

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2009, 09:29:07 am »

I think the only time that he (Jack) ever felt fulfilled and accepted for who he really was, was that distant summer on Brokeback Mountain and I think he spent the rest of his life trying to recreate it. But as you pointed out, in the end he ends up back home with his parents who doesn't even carry out his last wishes.




Like you I also wonder about the Jack we do not see,more so than Ennis. Does he as you say, go upstairs to his room and try to  breathe in the very essence of Ennis and BBM. Does he cry as he recalls the idyllic summer that was Brokeback.
I so often think of Jack as the being like a candle flickering in the breeze, close to being extinguished and yet somehow managing to burn for a little while longer. It would be glorious and much easier to imagine Jack as the eternal flame,clinging onto a vague yet ever dimming hope of some solace around the next bend. The words in the story, "let be, let be" seem to indicate that as he recalls and relishes the moment of the dozy embrace, he dare not allow himself to think more deeply.That to me seems to indicate that although outwardly optimistic, his inner self knows the reality and as such any exploration of the true situation is too much to even contemplate.



 :'(

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2009, 09:42:12 am »
Even to-day, gays do not think of themselves as queer! Gays are persons like everyone else who is not gay! We all are humans!

Being a gay man, I do not think that I am queer! But one thinks about that that (some) others do, and maybe gay bashing might be from them!

It was only spirit of being oneself that made Ennis and Jack attract to each other as a couple, a loving one!! I see that as that! Does anyone else do?


Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2009, 09:50:05 am »
Even to-day, gays do not think of themselves as queer! Gays are persons like everyone else who is not gay! We all are humans!

Being a gay man, I do not think that I am queer! But one thinks about that that (some) others do, and maybe gay bashing might be from them!

It was only spirit of being oneself that made Ennis and Jack attract to each other as a couple, a loving one!! I see that as that! Does anyone else do?



The term "queer" is only being used here, as it was in the context of the movie.

I do not call gay people "queer" in normal conversation, nor do I think that gays think of themselves as "queer".

We are talking about how Ennis felt, and in doing that we are quoting the word "queer" as he used it.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2009, 10:49:57 am »
I have no problem with the word "queer." I wear it as a badge of honour. I'm in good company.
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Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2009, 11:39:16 am »
I have no problem with the word "queer." I wear it as a badge of honour. I'm in good company.

And I'm sure you use the word in an affectionate and sometimes humourous way Kerry, as it should be, when it is used.

But as you know, sometimes it can be used in a derogative way, which is how I think Ennis viewed it.
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2009, 03:50:19 pm »
I have no problem with the word "queer." I wear it as a badge of honour. I'm in good company.

Queer is only derogatory if you allow it to be, so I agree with you.
In the north of England there is a very old phrase, there's nowt so queer as folk, normally muttered in conjunction with, there's more out than in. !! Iam definitely very queer/strange/odd, but it at least spares me from the grey cloak of mediocrity.
One good thing about moving to the states, is many of my quirks are perfectly acceptable and accepted as part of the perceived eccenticity of the British. ;D

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2009, 06:41:52 pm »
Queer is only derogatory if you allow it to be, so I agree with you.
In the north of England there is a very old phrase, there's nowt so queer as folk, normally muttered in conjunction with, there's more out than in. !! Iam definitely very queer/strange/odd, but it at least spares me from the grey cloak of mediocrity.
One good thing about moving to the states, is many of my quirks are perfectly acceptable and accepted as part of the perceived eccenticity of the British. ;D


Same out here in Oz, Fiona. We  brag about how strange and odd we are.....its our trademark.

And for us, who's ancestors were shipped out here for penance, we can always blame our British heritage...lol
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Offline mariez

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2009, 07:08:06 pm »
I think his fear of thinking of himself as queer was bigger then his fear of the tire iron.

bailey, I totally agree with this.  Obviously, the thought of being so brutally beaten is horrifying, but I don't think Ennis's real torment was simply about any type of physical beating - it was a more internal torment  about being "queer" and what he had been taught by his father and society that that meant. 

As to the question of their attraction - I always think of that line from the ss that has been quoted a few times here already, at the end of the paragraph that begins:

They had a high-time supper by the fire....................................They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he’d never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

We can see that neither of them had ever felt so comfortable with another person before.
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Offline bailey1205

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2009, 07:39:06 pm »
Exactly Marie !!!

I don't think they had ever encountered anyone before in their life that showed them one damn bit of companionship.
Someone that really listened and cared.

They truly understood each other.


Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2009, 04:59:16 am »
Exactly Marie !!!

I don't think they had ever encountered anyone before in their life that showed them one damn bit of companionship.
Someone that really listened and cared.

They truly understood each other.


I think you're right. The image from the movie that has always stuck in my mind in regard to this, is the look on Jack's face as he watches Ennis ride off; it's a look of perfect contentment . In this exact moment, there is not any other place on earth he would rather be. I think that was a very rare state of mind for dreamer Jack. How could he possibly do something besides fall in love?



Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2009, 12:02:38 pm »
I often find one of the most illuminating things about this film, is we all see the same film and yet so many different interpretations.
That look on Jack's face, has always seemed terribly sad, wistful almost, as if he knows that how ever much he loves Ennis, he seems destined to a lifetime of watching him, ride/drive off into the disatance, away from him.

In fact it is one of the saddest looks from Jack that I see. I am not saying your interpreatation is wrong, it is the same old BBM thing a million viewings and almost as many inferences drawn from those viewings, including many changed opinions at subsequent viewings. Maybe our view is coloured by our own emotional state at the time. :)

Offline bailey1205

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2009, 09:24:00 pm »
I think you're right. The image from the movie that has always stuck in my mind in regard to this, is the look on Jack's face as he watches Ennis ride off; it's a look of perfect contentment . In this exact moment, there is not any other place on earth he would rather be. I think that was a very rare state of mind for dreamer Jack. How could he possibly do something besides fall in love?




I see it as perfect contentment also.

Probably never had anyone to ever hold him like that before.
Even though Ennis wouldn't hold him from the front because he didn't
want to know it was a man he was holding.

Jack knew what it meant.

When I see that scene, I see a look of love in Jacks eyes.

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2009, 02:07:38 am »
Beautiful, Buffymon!  Just gorgeous, and the captions are spot on! 

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2009, 02:11:13 am »
Does BBM ever let go? Well, in my own case, I thought I was pretty much all cried out. Until, that is, I read what you wrote above. And back again the tears came.  Looks like I'm a captive for life and I'm at peace with that.

Same here.  I think about Ennis and Jack all the time.  I even dream about them...still!

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2009, 11:35:34 am »
I see it as perfect contentment also.

Probably never had anyone to ever hold him like that before.
Even though Ennis wouldn't hold him from the front because he didn't
want to know it was a man he was holding.

Jack knew what it meant.

When I see that scene, I see a look of love in Jacks eyes.

Yes, love is what I see too. After all, the ss refers to it as a "single moment of artless, charmed happiness.

Maybe it was at that moment Jack knew for sure how he felt about Ennis. I'd like to think it was.



The contentment, I think stems from feeling loved, and feeling like you're enough. Ennis never expected Jack to be better, more handsome, richer or to work harder etc. In that moment, Jack could just be, and that was enough. Wouldn´t that make us all feel perfectly contented too?

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2009, 12:06:38 pm »
This expression on Jack's face was enuff to earn him the Oscar right there, IMHO. Jake must have been inspired by the story, which goes, in part:

"Ennis's breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight, and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming like faint electricity..."

and then Annie Proulx winds up:

"Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still usable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, 'Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you're sleepin on your feet like a horse," and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words 'See you tomorrow,' and the horse's shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone."

This is the last time they ever see each other. How appropriate that it ends with no sex, but sexual imagery, suggesting to the aware reader that the two men united in spirit. There is also the timelessness of childhood and the experience of unconditional love that comes from a mother.
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Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2009, 12:16:00 pm »
This expression on Jack's face was enuff to earn him the Oscar right there, IMHO.
Amen to that!

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW: What Was the Attraction?
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2009, 02:00:44 pm »
Same here.  I think about Ennis and Jack all the time.  I even dream about them...still!

I often day dream about them. I commute 3 hours to work, so those boys do come in handy ;)