Would Ennis Commit Suicide?

[dly64]

I have often wondered what happened to Ennis after grows older and alone. With Wyoming having the highest suicide rate in the United States …. the majority of those suicides being single, elderly men … would Ennis be included in those stats?

Researching what life was like for a homosexual in the rural USA during the 60’s has been eye opening. During this time, the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association listed “homosexuality” as individuals who were “mentally disordered.” Either a person was heterosexual and “normal” or homosexual and “abnormal.” This definition became the socially constructed norm. Male homosexuality was perceived as a rarity. Within this environment, gay men believed they were “the only one.” Anal sex was perceived as an activity engaged in by “degraded males” who thought themselves to be like women, or were labeled as such because they were accepting the status of being anally penetrated.  What exacerbated the problem were the homophobic reactions of others and themselves. Pierre Trembly states in his research:

“Heterosexist and homophobic messages affirm not only that one is a rarity and  "does not belong," but that hatred, marginalization, and even exclusion will apply if one’s homosexual secret is known or suspected. Related problems, including the internalization of acquired homohating perceptions, often associated with gender nonconformity issues, now turned against the self, have been linked to suicide problems ... The learned "Better Be Dead Than Gay" perception is implicated in self-killings and murders of gay individuals”.

It is interesting to note that even today, many viewers of BBM refer to Jack as the “woman” and Ennis as the “man,” (or vice versa) which is completely ludicrous.

Returning to Ennis … by the end of the story, Ennis is aware that people probably know he is gay (Mrs. Twist, OMT, Alma, Alma, Jr. et.al.). Even though Ennis makes a “baby step” in agreeing to attend Alma, Jr.’s wedding, is he really capable of changing? In the story, he has dreams about Jack … “…he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets.” IMO, as Ennis grew older, the bitterer he became because of what he did, what he lost and what he’ll never have. But … would that lead to suicide?

[David]

Hi Diane!

   I do recall reading an interview with Anne Proulx where it said she invisioned Ennis becoming more withdrawn from society.   No doubt he regrets withholding his true feelings towards Jack and perhaps now being broken hearted, he will not open himself to such hurt again.  Or even that he see's Jacks death as the result of being "open" and that his father was right.

   And I must admit, I too had a fleeting thought that; "Geez!  Poor Ennis.  I hope there isn't a gun in that Trailer!"

[Wxaupe]

I thought he might, until I read that Larry Mc Murtry said Ennis was too tough to commit suicide. Now I think Larry's right. "If you can't fix it ya gotta stand it" as Ennis says.

[Katie77]

I must say the thought crossed my mind too....probably because I have seen it in real life.....

I have documented this before on this board, but in a nutshell, my father was homosexual in the 50's and 60's...and a had a partner whom it left my mother for....they were together for over 14years, and split, when his partner, decided to have a "normal" life and marry and have a family.

My Dad left him with the home that they had shared, and went off alone moving from one town to the next......Eventually he settled in a small village, and lived in a caravan park (trailer park)....ALONE.....

He visited me and my family several times, I visited him, several times, but I could always see  how lonely he was.......he often used to say, that he didnt have anything to live for anymore, which used to make me angry, because he did have me, his daughter, and  I had given him two grandsons....but I know now, we werent enough to give him what he longed for.

He eventually committed suicide.....

When he took his life, I was not only very sad, but I was still angry with him, because I did feel that me and my children should have been enough to make him want to continue to live on....it made me feel that he didnt love me enough to keep living for me, he didnt even want to live to watch my sons grow up...I was devastated...

When I saw the movie the first time, I thought so much of him...even though, over all the years I had seen him with his partner, and accepted that there was "something" there, it wasnt until I saw it on the screen, the depth of the love between two men, the torment they had to endure because they loved one another, and the fierce overwhelming loss of when it was all over....I finally realized that no one, not me, not my boys, no one, could have ever replaced the loss that Dad was feeling, so I didnt feel angry anymore, and I finally forgave him for taking his life away from us......and if you can understand, that I had been carrying that around with me since his death, 22 years ago, you can imagine the relief that I felt.

So, if you ask me, "would Ennis commit suicide"....I can only answer "yes".....but I really do hope that he didnt.....for as much as I have forgiven,  I can still not condone it, nor agree with it.....Life deals us all some terrible and painful paths to travel, and we have to get thru them, and heal from them.....as Ennis said "If you cant fix it, you gotta stand it".......

[Luvlylittlewing]

I have wondered the same thing, and can see Ennis committing suicide.  Sure he had his daughters and the promise of grandchildren, but he also had to live with Jack's untimely death, a horribly painful death (if you buy the tire iron version) and the guilt.  I can see Ennis committing suicide if no one reached out to him or if he refused to undergo therapy.  With the genuine pain that Ennis endured in his sad, sad life, I don't know how he even got up in the morning.

[Bucky]

I just don't believe Ennis would commit suicide because despite Ennis' loneliness from Jack's death Ennis was a survivor. He wouldn't live with Jack because he was afraid that they would both be killed.  Also Ennis' philosophy of life was that "if you can't fix it you have to stand it."  I think Ennis was a tough old bird who would not do any harm to himself.  I agree that Alma Jr. and Kurt and the family they would have and Jenny might not be enough to keep Ennis from doing anything like that but Ennis was a strong individual who grew up very lonely without many friends and with the exception of Jack he didn't have hardly any friends.  Somehow I see Ennis going to the bus station diner alone and going to the pool halls alone to watch the younger guys play pool always careful but ready to tackle every day as it came.  At times he might have lived with Alma Jr. because of monetary reasons but Ennis was a survivor and I don't think he was the suicide type.  Now that is only my opinion of Ennis. I don't have anyway of knowing for sure.  I think Ennis was so used to being solitary in his life that it came to him like a second nature.

[David]

Well, it is difficult to know what a fictional character was meant to do.   Only Anne Proulx can answer that.   But we can speculate about his future.   

But first. Look where it left off.   Ennis is a ranch hand who now lives pretty much near where ever the work is.  It is at the end of the book where it says the ranch was sold and he had to move on, perhaps with his daughter.   So are we to assume that he can't afford to rent the apartment in Riverton or a small farm house like before?  Probably not.

Suicide would be a horrible end to the story, but as pointed out a possible scenario.   We can think of other options.   He gets a regular blue collar job that pays better and settles into a regular work week.  Spending time with his girls and future grandchildren.    Would he go back to Cassie?   I doubt it.   He now knows how unhappy he was with alma and what a mess the situation made of their marriage.  I think he'd stay single unless some young buck came along and caught his eye.  And that has always been my hope for him.   That one day at the General Store he'd bump into a late 30's handsome (and single) black haired Cowboy that would make Ennis gulp hard and take his breath away.   And just maybe this new young man would have a thing for the strong silent type.

 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I don't think Ennis would commit suicide--not actively, anyway. That is, I don't think he would have directly killed himself. I just don't think that would be in character for the "can't fix it/got to stand it" kind of guy we know Ennis to be.

On the other hand, Ennis does not lead a particularly healthy lifestyle, despite being an outdoorsman. He smokes too much and drinks too much, undoubtedly has a lousy diet (probably lots of starch and fat and very few fresh fruits and vegetables), and probably has little, no, or poor medical care. I can easily imagine that he wouldn't live much past age 60 (yes, this is the scenario I incorporated in my fanfic, "Some Sweet Life").

I don't believe Ennis would eat his 30.06, but I suppose it's possible to see the smoking and drinking as almost a "passive" form of suicide.

(In reality, a friend of mine chose that route--in addition, adding drugs to the mix.  )

[Mikaela]

Jeff, you took the words right out of my keyboard! I was just gearing up to write exactly what you wrote above.

Completely agree; - Ennis would not commit suicide outright, he's too stoic and inured to his "Can-stand-it" attitude for that. But passively, subconsciously...... his life style goes a way to ensuring that he won't become an old man. And I think that even after he knows that (when it becomes public knowledge how damaging smoking is, for instance) he'll go right on living like he's used to.  I don't think he sees any reason or motivation  to "prolong" life through healthy living. 

Ennis would have been ca. 62 years old by now. I actually have some doubt that he'd still be alive though. I've imagined heart problems or lung cancer might have taken their toll already.

[nic]

I read a heartbreaking fan fiction where Ennis went up to Brokeback and took his own life.  It was plausible & sensitively written. 

However, I agree with Jeff & Mikaela, with the addition that his love for his girls goes a little way in helping to keep him in the world of the living.  I can imagine them berating him to stop smoking & drinking so much, to get out more etc  Hopefully they would keep him from becoming totally withdrawn all of the time and provide a little light in the rest of his life.  He would be so good with grandchildren I think, if he got the opportunity & allowed himself the pleasure.

I get worried thinking of the scenario where they move away and he gets left to his own devices.  This "passive" form of suicide (to use Jeff's phrase) would happen a lot more quickly.  It's a shame because Jack woulnd't want him to be so miserable without hope for so long, but then again he knew Ennis better than anyone.  I think Jack would want him to get the most out of his family and keep working hard on the land and with the animals for as long as he was able, until they were able to meet again.

[Front-Ranger]

Katie, what a sad story about your Dad!! Thank you for sharing that with us and also your epiphany after seeing BBM. Some of us who have settled into a comfortable long-term relationship can forget that "only love can break your heart" as Neil Young sings. David, I think your scenario is right for today but not for those times. My answer to the question is a sadder one. I think Ennis would have committed suicide either literally, by taking his own life, or figuratively, by just wasting away. As Jack said, "All we got is Brokeback Mountain."

[ednbarby]

I have seen this passive form of suicide, too.  My mother never got over my father leaving her.  He was the love of her life.  After he left for good, she descended into clinical depression from which she never fully recovered.  She smoked three packs of cigarettes a day.  Drank way too much.  Went into rehab twice - the second time, it took.  But she ultimately replaced alcohol with prescription painkillers.  She really gave up the day, to shamelessly echo Jake, she knew she could never be with my father again.  She never dated again, even when she was still young and gorgeous and not yet out of her prime and had several men interested and asking her out.  Do you know - my parents married and divorced each other twice.  They were married for two years before they had any of us kids - got married at 20.  Their passion for each other was insatiable.  But they would also have knock-down, drag-out (not literally, thank goodness) fights.  They divorced, then crossed paths a couple years later, couldn't get enough of each other and married again.  (You'd think you'd learn, right?)  Had the three of us, and for the first ten years, it was a sweet life.  But they grew apart.  I won't go into all the reasons why, but it happens.  Dad had an affair.  Mom found out and asked him to leave.  He did.  She ultimately died at 60 alone and in her apartment from a heart attack most likely brought on by years of smoking and just not caring a lick about her health in general.  There was no heart disease in her family - it was all self-inflicted.

I see Ennis as dying alone, too, much like you've envisioned it, Jeff.  I like to think he does that on Brokeback Mountain and is reunited in the afterlife with Jack for all eternity.  But I do see him living a very lonely life for the rest of his days.  I think he would descend into depression - really I see it as something he's been fighting his whole life since A.E. did what he did to him (and to Earl).  And I see him as refusing treatment for it when Alma Jr. suggests it in the 80s and 90s when SSRIs come into the fold - just self-medicating with cigarettes and beer/whiskey - drinking himself, ultimately, into oblivion every night.  And I agree that yes, it is a form of suicide.  He gave up the day he knew Jack was gone forever and at the same time realized how much he loved him.  As much as I mourn for Jack, it's Ennis my heart just aches for.  Jack is gone and not in pain any longer.  In a way, he is finally free.  It's who's left behind that suffers.  And the thought of how much suffering Ennis must do before he dies, if I dwell on it for too long, nearly chokes me.

[dly64]

First of all, I really appreciate hearing from all of you on your perceptions regarding if  Ennis would/would not commit suicide.

Katie – your story is so sad. It sheds another light on the outcome of suicide …. the anger and heartbreak of loved ones left behind

Well, it is difficult to know what a fictional character was meant to do.   Only Anne Proulx can answer that.   But we can speculate about his future.  

But first. Look where it left off.   Ennis is a ranch hand who now lives pretty much near where ever the work is.  It is at the end of the book where it says the ranch was sold and he had to move on, perhaps with his daughter.   So are we to assume that he can't afford to rent the apartment in Riverton or a small farm house like before?  Probably not.

Suicide would be a horrible end to the story, but as pointed out a possible scenario.   We can think of other options.   He gets a regular blue collar job that pays better and settles into a regular work week.  Spending time with his girls and future grandchildren.    Would he go back to Cassie?   I doubt it.   He now knows how unhappy he was with alma and what a mess the situation made of their marriage.  I think he'd stay single unless some young buck came along and caught his eye.  And that has always been my hope for him.   That one day at the General Store he'd bump into a late 30's handsome (and single) black haired Cowboy that would make Ennis gulp hard and take his breath away.   And just maybe this new young man would have a thing for the strong silent type.

You are right that suicide would be a devastating and tragic end to this story (a la Romeo and Juliet). IMO, Ennis would never go back to Cassie. Cassie represented Ennis’ continual denial and attempts to have a “normal” relationship with a woman. After Ennis and Jack’s row, Ennis realized that it was Jack he loved. He could not continue the façade of a “straight” relationship with Cassie (or any other woman, for that matter).

After Jack dies, Ennis is left with a lot of questions and angst. He has fettered his life away. “If you don’t have nothin’, you don’t need nothin’.” The one thing Ennis did  have was the love of a man who would have given up everything to have a relationship with him. Ennis’ passiveness and his inability to freely give of himself (as he did on BBM) is a regret that Ennis will have to live with. The “if only …” scenarios will be plaguing Ennis for the rest of his life.

Although Ennis, by the end of the film, knows he is gay, he is still not accepting of that fact. So, the possibility of him having a relationship with another man is extremely remote to nonexistent. IMO, he becomes more homophobic than before as he is left with an image of Jack being killed with a tire iron (even though there is no proof, Ennis is still left with that possibility).  Because of Ennis’ “hatred” of his sexual orientation (i.e. hatred towards himself), he would be an extremely high risk for suicide.

I don't think Ennis would commit suicide--not actively, anyway. That is, I don't think he would have directly killed himself. I just don't think that would be in character for the "can't fix it/got to stand it" kind of guy we know Ennis to be.

On the other hand, Ennis does not lead a particularly healthy lifestyle, despite being an outdoorsman. He smokes too much and drinks too much, undoubtedly has a lousy diet (probably lots of starch and fat and very few fresh fruits and vegetables), and probably has little, no, or poor medical care. I can easily imagine that he wouldn't live much past age 60 (yes, this is the scenario I incorporated in my fanfic, "Some Sweet Life").

I don't believe Ennis would eat his 30.06, but I suppose it's possible to see the smoking and drinking as almost a "passive" form of suicide.

(In reality, a friend of mine chose that route--in addition, adding drugs to the mix.   )

This, too, is an interesting POV and a realistic one that, honestly, I had not previously considered.

Here are some other things to ponder …

Going for Ennis:
•   The love of his daughters
•   The potential for grandchildren
•   An innate sense of survival in desperate situations
•   Having loved and been loved

Going against Ennis:
•   His own self loathing, “homohatred”
•   Living an isolative existence
•   Living in rural Wyoming
•   Fear
•   The memories of what he did/didn’t do, what he lost and what he’ll never have

I am sure that all of you can add points to both of those lists.

At this moment, I am not prepared to say where I come out on this issue. Ennis is a very complex character that, honestly, I have troubles understanding. (Jack is much easier for me to relate to. My personality and life experiences are more like Jack’s versus Ennis’).  Is it in Ennis’ psyche to have the ability to kill himself?  

[serious crayons]

Is it in Ennis’ psyche to have the ability to kill himself?

I think not.

Will he ever be very happy? No. Jack is the only person he ever loved or will love. Personally, I can't see him going out and meeting some new guy. Less because of homophobia than because anyone else would seem a pale substitute for Jack. Still, he's used to standing what he can't fix, to accepting a life of pain. He's used to being alone for long periods. He's used to rural Wyoming. And the tiny glimmer of hope at the end of the movie is his relationship with his daughter(s), which would offer some happiness.

So, in my view, no suicide.

Diane, as we have discussed before, you and I have very different ideas of how Ennis feels about homosexuality, including his own, by the end of the movie (and for that matter, in earlier parts of the movie, too). So I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Still, there's one thing you say that I don't understand: why would he be MORE homophobic because of the image of Jack being killed with a tire iron? I would think, if anything, it would make him LESS so, because he would have sympathy for Jack and be repulsed by the prejudices that led to his death. Why would that make him more inclined to side with the homophobes? Or maybe you are simply saying he would be more afraid to reveal his own homosexuality?

 

[moremojo]

We can infer from the italicized prologue in the short story that Ennis certainly didn't commit suicide (if he ever would or did) in the relatively immediate aftermath (months? years?) of Jack's death. The scenario of Ennis awakening in his trailer, knowing he'll have to move off the sold ranch that day, but finding warmth and strength through his dream about Jack, suggests that he's been dreaming of Jack for a while. Ennis even muses on having to live with his married daughter until he finds new work--hardly the kind of speculation an actively suicidal person is likely to have. So in Proulx's world, I see Ennis as the "standing it while not fixing it" kind of guy.

There is still the element of passive suicide (via alcohol, poor diet, and inattention to medical care) that others have cited. There is a lot of evidence (in the movie especially) that Ennis is indeed following this path. He would not recognize his behavior as suicidal, but the eventual results would be the same. In a way it makes sense--Ennis is probably just biding his time until death releases him, and perhaps hoping that he may possibly be joined with Jack in another existence. It's the only kind of fulfillment he would likely be able to imagine for himself.

I still hope myself that Ennis found it in himself to use his love for Jack as a touchstone for cultivating his love of others. In the movie, this is very much in evidence regarding his decision to attend his daughter's wedding. He has learned an invaluable lesson from Jack's sweet spirit, and is actively incorporating it into his behavior. Perhaps he could even use this wonderful gift as a means of forgiving himself and loving his own wounded heart. We know that Jack would wish nothing less for his beloved Brokeback buddy.

[dly64]

IStill, there's one thing you say that I don't understand: why would he be MORE homophobic because of the image of Jack being killed with a tire iron? I would think, if anything, it would make him LESS so, because he would have sympathy for Jack and be repulsed by the prejudices that led to his death. Why would that make him more inclined to side with the homophobes? Or maybe you are simply saying he would be more afraid to reveal his own homosexuality?

 

I am not saying that Ennis would side with the homophobic bigots … no way, shape or form. Whew! I hope I didn’t imply that! What I am saying is that he would become not only fearful of revealing his own sexual orientation, but also more hateful towards it. In Ennis’ mind, when he realizes that Jack has been having sexual relations with another man, Jack was “found out” and was ultimately killed because of it. His perception of how Jack died only reinforced Ennis’ belief that being gay meant death.

[serious crayons]

What I am saying is that he would become not only fearful of revealing his own sexual orientation, but also more hateful towards it. In Ennis’ mind, when he realizes that Jack has been having sexual relations with another man, Jack was “found out” and was ultimately killed because of it. His perception of how Jack died only reinforced Ennis’ belief that being gay meant death.

Oh. Well, I guess I see fearful and hateful as two separate things. There's 1) being afraid to reveal one's own homosexuality for fear of being killed, and 2) hating homosexuality because you see it as shameful or immoral or whatever. Seems to me you could be both, or you could be one but not the other.

Ennis is certainly both at the beginning of the film, and is arguably still both at the end (I think he's less so, but it's debatable). And I can see the tire-iron image making Ennis more fearful than ever. But I have a hard time seeing it as making him more hateful -- to me, that connotes agreement with the bigots.

[dly64]

I still hope myself that Ennis found it in himself to use his love for Jack as a touchstone for cultivating his love of others. In the movie, this is very much in evidence regarding his decision to attend his daughter's wedding. He has learned an invaluable lesson from Jack's sweet spirit, and is actively incorporating it into his behavior. Perhaps he could even use this wonderful gift as a means of forgiving himself and loving his own wounded heart. We know that Jack would wish nothing less for his beloved Brokeback buddy.

I like your romantic spirit …. I usually fall on that side. For some reason, in this case, I am not as optimistic. Ennis is a wounded soul. He was bred out of heartbreak and tragedy. We, the audience, know very little about Ennis’ father. What we do  know is that his father had a heavily mortgaged ranch; the family lived in adjunct poverty; he was a “fine roper” and hated homosexuals. Can we also surmise that his father was violent? IMO, yes … certainly Ennis believed that his “daddy” was capable of killing and dismembering another human being. Even though Ennis’ dad was by no means an ideal father, Ennis still looked up to and loved him. This was Ennis’ frame of reference.

As an adult, Ennis was unable to express his love towards others. He was relatively unavailable to his daughters (I am not saying he didn’t love them. I am just saying that he didn’t make them a priority). He also had an explosive temper. The one person who could understand Ennis was Jack …. even though Ennis frustrated and disappointed Jack all of the time. After Jack died, Ennis realized for the first time the potential consequences of his actions. Ennis does take a baby step in accepting his daughter’s invitation to her wedding. IMHO, however, I think Ennis became embittered as time went on. He knew what he could have had … he had a glimpse of that life in the summer of ’63. Instead, Ennis was left with only a memory of BBM and a symbol of their love (the two shirts).

[moremojo]

Oh. Well, I guess I see fearful and hateful as two separate things. There's 1) being afraid to reveal one's own homosexuality for fear of being killed, and 2) hating homosexuality because you see it as shameful or immoral or whatever. Seems to me you could be both, or you could be one but not the other.

Ennis is certainly both at the beginning of the film, and is arguably still both at the end (I think he's less so, but it's debatable). And I can see the tire-iron image making Ennis more fearful than ever. But I have a hard time seeing it as making him more hateful -- to me, that connotes agreement with the bigots.

As a gay man, I can vouch that being fearful and hateful are two different things, and do not necessarily cohabitate in the same person. I came to terms with my sexual identity in my early adolescence, and found much joy and beauty in it, but remained terrified of being found out, and of what that might mean to my well-being and comfort. At the age of thirty-nine, I still worry about the negative attention of homophobes--I am not out to everyone and in every situation (coming out is a lifelong process).

For the record, I read that Larry McMurtry saw Ennis as possibly becoming more homophobic after Jack's death due to bitterness. I have a hard time seeing this--Ennis loves Jack, and recognizes that Jack was a homosexual. He may even acknowledge  himself as a  homosexual and be accepting of this, though he may still fear his society's disapproval. But Ennis, in my eyes, cannot, by story's end,  love Jack and hate Jack's sexual identity. These two things seem incompatible to my mind.

[dly64]

Oh. Well, I guess I see fearful and hateful as two separate things. There's 1) being afraid to reveal one's own homosexuality for fear of being killed, and 2) hating homosexuality because you see it as shameful or immoral or whatever. Seems to me you could be both, or you could be one but not the other.

Ennis is certainly both at the beginning of the film, and is arguably still both at the end (I think he's less so, but it's debatable). And I can see the tire-iron image making Ennis more fearful than ever. But I have a hard time seeing it as making him more hateful -- to me, that connotes agreement with the bigots.

I see your POV, and I don’t completely disagree. I am not sure if I am communicating this well. Certainly Ennis’ increased fear is a given. I am not saying that Ennis would want to see homosexuals murdered and strung up by their dicks until they pulled off. What I am saying is, despite his love for Jack and his attraction to men, he does not see homosexuality as being “normal.” In this regard, he hates his feelings. IMO, he never comes to terms with or accepts his homosexuality. That’s a matter of debate … but that is my opinion.

[David]

Tell you what,  I have to stop reading this particular thread.          

[serious crayons]

I'm sorry, David. 

What I am saying is, despite his love for Jack and his attraction to men, he does not see homosexuality as being “normal.” In this regard, he hates his feelings. IMO, he never comes to terms with or accepts his homosexuality. That’s a matter of debate … but that is my opinion.

I'm sorry to you, Diane, for dragging this out. But I'm still confused. I understand that you believe his experiences during the movie don't CHANGE his hatred of homosexuality (I disagree, but I do understand what you're saying). What I don't understand is why the thought of Jack being murdered would make him hate homosexuality even MORE. Make him more fearful, sure. But why would it make him more hateful?

[jpwagoneer1964]

Sorry Katie to hear about you dad.

I think Jack's love would have sustained Ennis. He was used to "standing it"  throughout his whole life.

The shirts would have be a reminder of all the good memories with Jack and that he experienced true love in his life.

[dly64]

David – I am sorry you feel you have to stop reading this thread. But you gotta do what you gotta do!

I'm sorry to you, Diane, for dragging this out. But I'm still confused. I understand that you believe his experiences during the movie don't CHANGE his hatred of homosexuality (I disagree, but I do understand what you're saying). What I don't understand is why the thought of Jack being murdered would make him hate homosexuality even MORE. Make him more fearful, sure. But why would it make him more hateful?

Maybe the word “hatred” is too strong. I don’t even know that we are completely disagreeing. Ennis believes that Jack’s sexuality got him (Jack) murdered. The teachings of Ennis’ childhood are instilled in his belief system. He is ambivalent about loving a man and being attracted to men. As time goes on, Ennis becomes more and more embittered. In some weird way, I think Ennis feels responsible for Jack’s death. In Ennis’ mind …had he been able to accept his own sexuality and make a life with Jack … Jack wouldn’t have died on the road alone (drowning in his own blood). So, maybe the appropriate description would be that Ennis hated himself.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm sorry, David. 

I'm sorry to you, Diane, for dragging this out. But I'm still confused. I understand that you believe his experiences during the movie don't CHANGE his hatred of homosexuality (I disagree, but I do understand what you're saying). What I don't understand is why the thought of Jack being murdered would make him hate homosexuality even MORE. Make him more fearful, sure. But why would it make him more hateful?

We are talking internalized homophobia here, aren't we? I'm sure this is going to seem twisted and illogical, and I don't think I can even explain it, but I am getting a kind of visceral, gut-reaction type of feeling that I understand that Ennis could come to hate "being gay" even more because he believes that Jack's "being gay" has cost him (Ennis) the one person he loved--Jack. It's as though Ennis might see "being gay," rather than a tire iron, as being ultimately responsbile for Jack's death, so that it could increase his own internalized homophobia--his own hatred of "being gay."

[moremojo]

The shirts would have be a reminder of all the good memories with Jack and that he experienced true love in his life.

And what a remarkable blessing that love was, for both men. How many of us will be able to honestly say, at the close of our mortal lives, that we found a love half as intense or soul-searing as that between Ennis and Jack? Ennis may be materially poor at story's end, but he has an emotional treasure that even kings could not fathom.

[moremojo]

So, maybe the appropriate description would be that Ennis hated himself.

I most emphatically agree here.

[dly64]

We are talking internalized homophobia here, aren't we? I'm sure this is going to seem twisted and illogical, and I don't think I can even explain it, but I am getting a kind of visceral, gut-reaction type of feeling that I understand that Ennis could come to hate "being gay" even more because he believes that Jack's "being gay" has cost him (Ennis) the one person he loved--Jack. It's as though Ennis might see "being gay," rather than a tire iron, as being ultimately responsbile for Jack's death, so that it could increase his own internalized homophobia--his own hatred of "being gay."

Jeff - you have beautifully put into words what I have been trying to express but was unable to do so. Thanks!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

All interesting posts and takes on life without Jack. I tend to think he would not directly take his own life, he was a though old bird, but I think in a way he would end up taking his life with alcohol and cigarettes. I think over all his life would have been shorter, and sadder.

[nakymaton]

...Ennis...

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jeff - you have beautifully put into words what I have been trying to express but was unable to do so. Thanks!

Aw, shucks! I'm just happy to know I understood your meaning.

Do you suppose there would be some level, perhaps that even he couldn't get in touch with, where Ennis would be angry at Jack for "getting himself killed"? Does anyone know--am I remembering this correctly?--whether "anger" is considered one of the stages of grief?

[jpwagoneer1964]

Aw, shucks! I'm just happy to know I understood your meaning.

Do you suppose there would be some level, perhaps that even he couldn't get in touch with, where Ennis would be angry at Jack for "getting himself killed"? Does anyone know--am I remembering this correctly?--whether "anger" is considered one of the stages of grief?

Yes I think it is,I bet Ennis did have his moments when he was angry at Jack for"getting himself killed".

[Mikaela]

It's as though Ennis might see "being gay," rather than a tire iron, as being ultimately responsbile for Jack's death, so that it could increase his own internalized homophobia--his own hatred of "being gay."

I think this is a very astute observation. I've always considered Ennis's internalized homophobia a (relatively) bigger impediment to his happiness than his fear of being subjected to physical violence for being "gay". I think the same might well hold true for his emotions surrounding Jack's death.

Another event that I was wondering whether might have had the same effect - ie. increasing Ennis's internalized hatred of "being gay", seeing it as "wrong" or "bad" - is AIDS. Just a very few years after Jack died, Ennis could hardly have avoided the news stories; - the media and medical "frenzy" about the illness and the focus on how gay men in particular were affected.

Ennis wouldn't regard the illness in a Conservative Christian light, he's hardly a fan of the fire-and-brimstone crowd's views. But I've wondered if he might still not, influenced by the IMO far-less-than-balanced news coverage back in the day, consciously or subconsciously use it as fuel for the fire of his own "hatred of being gay": Might he consider it some sort of confirmation that his sexual orientation is "wrong" and "dangerous" and so increase his self-hatred. If it did have that effect on him, it might have served to send him further into that self-destructive behaviour (mainly drinking) that has been discussed in this thread, and so have pushed him further towards the passive form of suicide.


(I think I need a stiff drink myself after writing this. It's an interesting and worthwhile, but very depressing subject.)  

[Marge_Innavera]

Yes, it is one of the stages, and I can see Ennis feeling anger at some point.

In some cases, including Ennis' IMO, there's also a kind of relief with survivor guilt piling in right on top of that. Sometimes that can be a person who's died after a lingering illness, or the survivor might have been under years of stress due to drinking problems, drug addiction, etc.  In Ennis' case, it might cross his mind that Jack's death has left him "safe" from discovery.

[Marge_Innavera]

I think this is a very astute observation. I've always considered Ennis's internalized homophobia a (relatively) bigger impediment to his happiness than his fear of being subjected to physical violence for being "gay". I think the same might well hold true for his emotions surrounding Jack's death.

Another event that I was wondering whether might have had the same effect - ie. increasing Ennis's internalized hatred of "being gay", seeing it as "wrong" or "bad" - is AIDS. Just a very few years after Jack died, Ennis could hardly have avoided the news stories; - the media and medical "frenzy" about the illness and the focus on how gay men in particular were affected.

On the other hand, Ennis might be aware that he's denied himself the life he wanted with Jack all these years, and all for nothing. Sometimes that kind of experience tends to make people more reckless.

I wouldn't see Ennis doing himself in with a shotgun, deliberate "accident" and so on but more by drinking too much and neglecting his health.  No telling  how many deaths there are that are at least "partial suicides" but the death certificate says something else.

[Lumière]

Would Ennis Commit Suicide?


No, IMO.
I don't think he would've killed himself, that would be admitting defeat .. If he couldn't fix it, he would've stood it .. albeit miserably and unhappily without Jack and with the knowledge that he really was what he feared the most: queer.

[dly64]

Do you suppose there would be some level, perhaps that even he couldn't get in touch with, where Ennis would be angry at Jack for "getting himself killed"? Does anyone know--am I remembering this correctly?--whether "anger" is considered one of the stages of grief?

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross’ five stages of grief are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance

I doubt that Ennis ever got to acceptance.

Ennis wouldn't regard the illness in a Conservative Christian light, he's hardly a fan of the fire-and-brimstone crowd's views. But I've wondered if he might still not, influenced by the IMO far-less-than-balanced news coverage back in the day, consciously or subconsciously use it as fuel for the fire of his own "hatred of being gay": Might he consider it some sort of confirmation that his sexual orientation is "wrong" and "dangerous" and so increase his self-hatred. If it did have that effect on him, it might have served to send him further into that self-destructive behaviour (mainly drinking) that has been discussed in this thread, and so have pushed him further towards the passive form of suicide.

Interesting observation and one that has a lot of truth to it. I remember when AIDS was becoming wide-spread and it was seen as a “gay disease.” The “right-wingers” (as I call them) used the opportunity to lambaste the entire gay population by stating that it was “God’s way of punishing them (gays) for their behavior.”  Bullocks!

As for Ennis – I do believe that would have fed into his own self-loathing.

(I think I need a stiff drink myself after writing this. It's an interesting and worthwhile, but very depressing subject.) 

Whoops! Didn’t mean to depress y’all!    But it is interesting and I appreciate your always well written and thoughtful responses.

On the other hand, Ennis might be aware that he's denied himself the life he wanted with Jack all these years, and all for nothing. Sometimes that kind of experience tends to make people more reckless.

True … and definitely more bitter.

[Front-Ranger]

In Ennis's defense I don't think he became an alcoholic. If he had, he wouldn't have been taking an old half-drunk bottle of white wine out of his fridge to Toast Alma Jr's wedding announcement. And, we didn't see evidence of him smoking during that scene either.

[dly64]

In Ennis's defense I don't think he became an alcoholic. If he had, he wouldn't have been taking an old half-drunk bottle of white wine out of his fridge to Toast Alma Jr's wedding announcement. And, we didn't see evidence of him smoking during that scene either.

Actually, Ennis is smoking right before Alma, Jr. gets out of the car. And I wouldn't say that wine is his forte. He is beer and whiskey drinker. Ennis is definitely a heavy smoker and drinker. Whether that constitutes addiction ... that's a matter of debate.

[moremojo]

In Ennis's defense I don't think he became an alcoholic. If he had, he wouldn't have been taking an old half-drunk bottle of white wine out of his fridge to Toast Alma Jr's wedding announcement. And, we didn't see evidence of him smoking during that scene either.

I see Ennis's choice of wine here as befitting the occasion--he knows that this is a special moment that calls for something more refined, from a traditional point of view, than beer, whiskey (the two beverages one imagines him consuming the most), or even the coffee or hot tea that Ennis earlier offered his daughter. It was old, cheap wine, to be sure, but it was the best he had on hand.

And as self-destructive as excessive alcohol consumption and smoking (note Ennis's stubby cigarette as Alma Jr. drives up to the trailer) are, I feel I can hardly begrudge these little pleasures that our hardened, lonely ranch hand allows himself.

[serious crayons]

Just catching up ...

I am getting a kind of visceral, gut-reaction type of feeling that I understand that Ennis could come to hate "being gay" even more because he believes that Jack's "being gay" has cost him (Ennis) the one person he loved--Jack. It's as though Ennis might see "being gay," rather than a tire iron, as being ultimately responsbile for Jack's death, so that it could increase his own internalized homophobia--his own hatred of "being gay."

Hmm. OK, I think I get it. However, I disagree with it. I think Ennis becomes more accepting of his sexuality at the end, not less. That's the message I take from much of the last few scenes, including his breakup with Cassie, his call to Lureen, his relative lack of concern about the Twists' knowing about their relationship, his use of the word "love," and so on.

As a result of Jack's fate and Ennis' belated understanding of how he should have honored their relationship, Ennis becomes a tiny bit less concerned about hiding. His worries about being "queer" or people "suspecting" are far overshadowed by grief. Not to say he's going to come out entirely (the icons of his love are still kept in the closet), but that he overcomes at least part of his internalized homophobia when he realizes what it cost him.

I do think Ennis may have been mad at himself for not being able to protect Jack. But again, to me that would indicate if anything decreased homophobia, not increased. As for anger, I think in Kubler-Ross' scheme it's usually directed at God or some outside cause. I think it's possible to feel anger for the deceased person, and I suppose Ennis' could potentially be angry at Jack for being reckless, but I see no sign of that. To me, he appears to be in one of the other stages (not including acceptance). "Jack, I swear ..." could even suggest a hint of denial or bargaining (something like, I swear things would be different if only you'd come back).

And as self-destructive as excessive alcohol consumption and smoking (note Ennis's stubby cigarette as Alma Jr. drives up to the trailer) are, I feel I can hardly begrudge these little pleasures that our hardened, lonely ranch hand allows himself.

Good point. We see little evidence that he drinks to excess, except I guess the seven beers he consumes while waiting for Jack to show up for the reunion.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I see Ennis's choice of wine here as befitting the occasion--he knows that this is a special moment that calls for something more refined, from a traditional point of view, than beer, whiskey (the two beverages one imagines him consuming the most), or even the coffee or hot tea that Ennis earlier offered his daughter. It was old, cheap wine, to be sure, but it was the best he had on hand.

Just as an FYI/aside, according to the screenplay, that wine is a relic of his relationship with Cassie. Must've been in that fridge quite a while. Eeew. ... 

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

After Jack dies, I don't think Ennis will ever be anywhere near as happy as he was with Jack when they would be together. And as much as he loves his daughters, I think he might dwell on suicide, I'm sure he'd passively do it, and it's possible that he could attempt it and succeed.

Regardless, I don't see Ennis living happily once Jack has died. I think he probably felt his day-to-day life to be a waste and then he dies relatively young.

[dly64]

Hmm. OK, I think I get it. However, I disagree with it. I think Ennis becomes more accepting of his sexuality at the end, not less. That's the message I take from much of the last few scenes, including his breakup with Cassie, his call to Lureen, his relative lack of concern about the Twists' knowing about their relationship, his use of the word "love," and so on.

I agree he takes a step in the right direction. But, how much is Ennis really going to change? I do think that Ennis could no longer live a “false life.” In other words, he was not able to masquerade as a heterosexual anymore when he knew he could never love anyone other than Jack. He also began to understand the toll his denial took on the women previously in his life. Which leads me to ….

As a result of Jack's fate and Ennis' belated understanding of how he should have honored their relationship, Ennis becomes a tiny bit less concerned about hiding. His worries about being "queer" or people "suspecting" are far overshadowed by grief. Not to say he's going to come out entirely (the icons of his love are still kept in the closet), but that he overcomes at least part of his internalized homophobia when he realizes what it cost him.

I completely agree that Ennis received a “wake up call” after Jack died. Ennis understood what he could have had and the price he paid for his impassivity. However, it was his grief that caused him to become more withdrawn and bitter. He was taught to hate homosexuals. In other words, he was taught to be self-deprecating. Ennis had an enormous amount of guilt and self-loathing. He turned the anger inward and became averse to his sexual orientation. He hated the “thing” that caused Jack to die.

I do think Ennis may have been mad at himself for not being able to protect Jack. But again, to me that would indicate if anything decreased homophobia, not increased. As for anger, I think in Kubler-Ross' scheme it's usually directed at God or some outside cause. I think it's possible to feel anger for the deceased person, and I suppose Ennis' could potentially be angry at Jack for being reckless, but I see no sign of that. To me, he appears to be in one of the other stages (not including acceptance). "Jack, I swear ..." could even suggest a hint of denial or bargaining (something like, I swear things would be different if only you'd come back).

You are right that in the stages of grief, anger is usually directed towards God. In this case, however, I think Ennis’ anger was turned inward. The whole “what if  ….” scenario would be a painful mantra in Ennis’ life.

[serious crayons]

He hated the “thing” that caused Jack to die.

I think I agree with everything you say    except the above sentence.

Yes, he was taught to hate homosexuality and therefore was guilty and self-loathing. Yes, his anger was turned inward. Yes, "What if" would be a painful mantra. And yes, Jack's death prompted him to take a step in the right direction and quit living a false life.

But if you're saying "the thing" he hated as a result of Jack's death was homosexuality, I disagree. Not that he didn't still hate homosexuality to some degree, I'm sure. But I think he became more accepting of it in himself and Jack as the movie went on, and especially at the end.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I do think Ennis may have been mad at himself for not being able to protect Jack. But again, to me that would indicate if anything decreased homophobia, not increased.

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the point here. In fact I'm not even seeing the connection between inward-directed anger over failure to protect Jack and homophobia.

Incidentally, just so I'm clear, I don't necessarily think Ennis is more homophobic at the end. I was only restating in my own way what I thought Diane was saying, and how and why that I see that it might be possible.

Sort of same goes for wondering if at some level Ennis could be "angry" at Jack for Jack's death. This isn't my field but, here again, I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind. Maybe that's a manifestation of survivor guilt? I don't know.

[dly64]

I think I agree with everything you say    except the above sentence.

OMG!! We’re making progress! Let's amrk the day and time!   

But if you're saying "the thing" he hated as a result of Jack's death was homosexuality, I disagree. Not that he didn't still hate homosexuality to some degree, I'm sure. But I think he became more accepting of it in himself and Jack as the movie went on, and especially at the end.

I am going back to what Jeff said:
…. “Ennis could come to hate "being gay" even more because he believes that Jack's "being gay" has cost him (Ennis) the one person he loved--Jack. It's as though Ennis might see "being gay," rather than a tire iron, as being ultimately responsible for Jack's death, so that it could increase his own internalized homophobia--his own hatred of "being gay."”

I like his explanation because he expresses what I believe to be true. I think this is the one point that we will not see eye to eye. Ennis understands and ultimately accepts the knowledge that he is gay. (i.e. he is no longer in denial). But that doesn’t mean he is at peace with that revelation.

Sort of same goes for wondering if at some level Ennis could be "angry" at Jack for Jack's death. This isn't my field but, here again, I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind. Maybe that's a manifestation of survivor guilt? I don't know.

I looked up the definition of “survivor’s guilt.” It is:

A deep sense of guilt, combined often with feelings of numbness and loss of interest in life, felt by those who have survived some catastrophe. Survivors often feel that they did not do enough to save those who died or that they are unworthy relative to the perished.

I think that Ennis' reaction fits that definition. What it doesn't state is that the "survivor" would become angry at the deceased. On the contrary, the survivor would turn the anger towards him/herself. Example: "What if I would have done ... maybe Jack would be alive."

[Katie77]

From what  I have learnt and read about suicide, it is a very impulsive thing....

Many who commit suicide, have often bemoaned their unhappiness in life, and said that they "should put an end to it"....but most say this several times before they do it.....

Whatever has happend in ones life, is usually not the reason for the suicide, it is actually the reason for the state that their life is in now....if they are sad, it is because of something that has happened before, if they are lonely, it is because of something that has happened before....it may have been one thing or several things that have brought this suicidal person to this decision.

What makes the day they actually do it, different, from the days they talked about doing it, or feeling like doing it, is something that we may never know....but something, some form of finality, makes them finally pull the trigger on that day....

I dont believe it is a matter of toghness, strength or weakness, it is a final moment, caused by many things which brought them to this moment in time.

[serious crayons]

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the point here. In fact I'm not even seeing the connection between inward-directed anger over failure to protect Jack and homophobia.

I thought it was you and/or Diane who were making a connection between inward-directed anger and homophobia.

As I understood your idea: Jack dies. Ennis is angry at Jack for being gay because that's what led to Jack's death. Ennis knows Ennis is also gay and so turns more anger on himself. Therefore Jack's death increases Ennis' internalized homophobia.

All I'm saying is if Ennis is angry at all at the end (which I think is doubtful in the first place), I would guess it is at himself rather than Jack. And that anger would focus not on anyone's homosexuality but on Ennis' failure to protect Jack from death. And that suggests he feels they had the sort of relationship in which protective responsibility would fall on him. And though that wouldn't necessarily require a romantic element, it is more likely to. Therefore Ennis' anger over Jack's death would indicate that, if anything, Ennis feels less homophobic.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, Jeff, you now say you don't necessarily agree with the initial premise, anyway. And it's possible I'm still misunderstanding Diane's point. If so, never mind.

I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind.

That could be. I don't see any sign of it in Ennis' demeanor, but I would guess it does happen in "real life."

[Jeff Wrangler]

I thought it was you and/or Diane who were making a connection between inward-directed anger and homophobia.

As I understood your idea: Jack dies. Ennis is angry at Jack for being gay because that's what led to Jack's death. Ennis knows Ennis is also gay and so turns more anger on himself. Therefore Jack's death increases Ennis' internalized homophobia.

Well, yes, and sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I was trying to get at was not seeing a connection between anger over his failure to protect Jack and and a lessening of Ennis's own internalized homophobia.

All I'm saying is if Ennis is angry at all at the end (which I think is doubtful in the first place), I would guess it is at himself rather than Jack. And that anger would focus not on anyone's homosexuality but on Ennis' failure to protect Jack from death. And that suggests he feels they had the sort of relationship in which protective responsibility would fall on him. And though that wouldn't necessarily require a romantic element, it is more likely to. Therefore Ennis' anger over Jack's death would indicate that, if anything, Ennis feels less homophobic.

Does that make sense?

Yes, logically, I think it does. I just don't buy the "is more likely to require a romantic element" premise. Therefore I don't buy the conclusion that as a result of Jack's death, Ennis feels less homophobic.

Anyway, Jeff, you now say you don't necessarily agree with the initial premise, anyway. And it's possible I'm still misunderstanding Diane's point. If so, never mind.

No, I think you understand it. And I never intended to say that I did agree with the premise, only that I thought I understood Diane's point, in a visceral sort of way, and I see how it could be possible. But that's not the same thing as agreeing with it.

Then again, maybe I just want to believe that by the end of the film, Ennis is more accepting of himself. But as I write this I'm wondering whether the conclusion of the film gives us enough evidence to make a decision about that point.

[serious crayons]

Well, yes, and sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I was trying to get at was not seeing a connection between anger over his failure to protect Jack and and a lessening of Ennis's own internalized homophobia.

Not so much a lessening of his homophobia as a sign that his homophobia has lessened.

I just don't buy the "is more likely to require a romantic element" premise. Therefore I don't buy the conclusion that as a result of Jack's death, Ennis feels less homophobic.

Really? Do you think of friends as feeling just as responsible for protecting each other -- even long distance -- as lovers do? You must have some really good friendships. To me, feeling guilty about not protecting someone you couldn't realistically have been expected to protect (because Jack was far away, Jack had free will, Ennis knew nothing of Jack's other involvement, etc.) implies a depth of emotion and a sense of obligation that are more likely to accompany romantic love than regular friendship.

So it seems to me that if Ennis IS feeling guilty, it's because he has recognized that their relationship was the sort that involved that strong a commitment -- again, in my view, a romantic relationship -- and accepted that. Ergo, he's feeling less homophobic.

The one other factor I can think of that might cause Ennis to feel responsibility for Jack's death is if he believes that if he were with Jack at the time, Jack wouldn't have died. But again, if he's recognizing he should have been with Jack, that also implies he feels less homophobia.

In any case, what I'm doing now is kind of like your explaining Diane's argument without sharing it. I don't see any evidence that Ennis IS angry, at either himself or Jack. We can extrapolate that he MIGHT be angry, because we think of that as happening in "real life." But I see no sign of it in the movie itself -- to me, he just seems sad.

maybe I just want to believe that by the end of the film, Ennis is more accepting of himself. But as I write this I'm wondering whether the conclusion of the film gives us enough evidence to make a decision about that point.

I think it does. The film shows us that in the wake of Jack's death, Ennis is able to take steps he would have been afraid or unable to take before, such as visiting the Twists and calmly accepting their knowledge of his relationship with Jack.

And I think his agreeing to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding (and asking if Kurt loves her) shows he has recognized something about the primary importance of love, which implies he has recognized the value of his relationship with Jack, which implies he is less concerned about it having been homosexual, which implies he is more accepting of his own sexuality. That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.

[moremojo]

That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.

Absolutely, and this segues most elegantly into "Jack, I swear...", which suggests an oath or affirmation of some sort. Ennis is a changed person from the youth we first met at the film's beginning.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I don't think that Ennis would have commited suicide. He had faced great loss throughout his life and was at least  on his terms able to deal with it.

The last paragraph in the book"
there was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it and if you can't fix it you have to stand it

[dly64]

So it seems to me that if Ennis IS feeling guilty, it's because he has recognized that their relationship was the sort that involved that strong a commitment -- again, in my view, a romantic relationship -- and accepted that. Ergo, he's feeling less homophobic.

The one other factor I can think of that might cause Ennis to feel responsibility for Jack's death is if he believes that if he were with Jack at the time, Jack wouldn't have died. But again, if he's recognizing he should have been with Jack, that also implies he feels less homophobia.

Ennis understands that he loves Jack and that it is a homosexual relationship. He also understands that he is gay. This is where we get stuck … just because Ennis acknowledges his sexual orientation does not mean he accepts it. In Ennis’ mind, Jack was killed because of his sexuality. Let me try to put it this way … I am envisioning this as Ennis’ thought process:

Jack is gay … Jack has a relationship with a man that was discovered by the townspeople…. Jack gets murdered because of his sexuality ….  Ennis is gay … Ennis hates what caused Jack to die …. Ennis becomes more withdrawn, bitter and homophobic

I have a feeling that this is one of those things that we will have to agree to disagree.

In any case, what I'm doing now is kind of like your explaining Diane's argument without sharing it. I don't see any evidence that Ennis IS angry, at either himself or Jack. We can extrapolate that he MIGHT be angry, because we think of that as happening in "real life." But I see no sign of it in the movie itself -- to me, he just seems sad.

When I talk about turning anger inward … it is often thought that depression is caused by anger directed at the self. That does not always hold water. However, in Ennis’ case I think it does. Ennis had a way of shutting off his feelings (until he reached a boiling point and exploded). Had Ennis been able to accept Jack’s love and the fact that he (Ennis) loved a man (before it was, ultimately too late) … his life and Jack’s life would have been completely different. Ennis realized how he squandered their 20 years together. Ultimately, Ennis hates himself for what he did and didn’t do, what he lost and what he’ll never have.

(I know there are several points in that paragraph that we don’t see eye to eye. But, that’s how I see it. )

The film shows us that in the wake of Jack's death, Ennis is able to take steps he would have been afraid or unable to take before, such as visiting the Twists and calmly accepting their knowledge of his relationship with Jack.

And I think his agreeing to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding (and asking if Kurt loves her) shows he has recognized something about the primary importance of love, which implies he has recognized the value of his relationship with Jack, which implies he is less concerned about it having been homosexual, which implies he is more accepting of his own sexuality. That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.

I agree that Ennis makes some steps in the right direction by the end of the film. I also know that Ennis realizes his depth of his love for Jack. I don’t agree that he becomes less homophobic. I still  believe that Ennis would withdrawal and become embittered.

Absolutely, and this segues most elegantly into "Jack, I swear...", which suggests an oath or affirmation of some sort. Ennis is a changed person from the youth we first met at the film's beginning.

Gosh, you and Katherine are very optimistic. I usually am, but I am not in this case, How much change is Ennis capable of making? I think very little. He is  a different person than he was as at the beginning of the film  Ennis has found the love of a man that he will never have again and he has faced the reality of his own sexual orientation. Other than that, he is still strapped with the baggage of his youth. Jack’s death only reinforced Ennis’ belief that Jack’s sexuality was the catalyst.

I don't think that Ennis would have committed suicide. He had faced great loss throughout his life and was at least  on his terms able to deal with it.

The last paragraph in the book"
there was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it and if you can't fix it you have to stand it

Truth be told, I have never stated where I stand as to if Ennis would/ would not commit suicide. In reality, I don’t think Ennis would commit suicide. However, I do think Ennis would live a very lonely and embittered existence. His only moment of joy would be when he sees Jack in his dreams.

[Jeff Wrangler]

His only moment of joy would be when he sees Jack in his dreams.

 

Aw, Diane, can't we at least hope for more of a relationship with Junior, maybe a grandkid or two, to give him some joy?

(P.S.: I like your explication in the preceding. ~J.)

[Marge_Innavera]

Gosh, you and Katherine are very optimistic. I usually am, but I am not in this case, How much change is Ennis capable of making? I think very little.

I think it's pretty damn hard to tell, considering at what point in time the movie ends.

I heard Diana Ossana give a lecture last April, and she made it clear that the ending, quite changed from the original story, was intended to be ambiguous. She also said that he'd taken a "baby step", but how much more is reasonable to expect at that point? IMO, not much.

To me, the ending leaves it up to interpretation how much change Ennis is capable of making, especially since he's just at midlife. (Not a redundant thing to point out - some comments I've read over the past months seem to imply that he's 105 years old and has one foot in the grave.) 

And for the record, I don't think that seeing Ennis as a changed man from the beginning of the film is that overly optimistic, as unfashionable as optimism of any kind is in some quarters.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Just thought I would add this'

I really think even though Ennis was not well educated and had few options, he did  enjpy the work he did, like being around animals and caring for them. This and knowing how much he had meant to Jack helped him carry on with  his life.

[moremojo]

Just thought I would add this'

I really think even though Ennis was not well educated and had few options, he did enjpy the work he did, like being around animals and caring for them. This and knowing how much he had meant to Jack helped him carry on with  his life.

I concur. Note how Ennis rebuffs Alma's suggestion to apply at the power plant, begging off due to alleged clumsiness. I have felt it far more likely that he was loath to relinquish the kind of work he was used to, i.e. working with animals and being outdoors. He was obviously skilled at this work, and worked hard, seemingly enjoying it as well. He barely subsists above poverty throughout the story, but he was still pretty lucky in being happy with the work that he did. This, added to his love for his daughters and his abiding love for Jack's memory would indeed be wonderful assets in getting him through his mortal existence.

[Momof2]

I do not think Ennis would commit suicide.  I think he was just in such pain.  The person he loved was gone and what was even worse he really had no one to share his pain with.  He had to deal with it on his on.  What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. 

A boy I dated in High School and was truly and deeply in love with died less than 1 month after we started college.  I thought I would literally die from the hurt.  When you loose the love of your life to death it is harder than them being alive and just not being with them.  It is forever.  You are never going to see them again.  You only have memories.  It took me years to get over him.  I am married now and my husband is the love of my life.  It took me a long time to let go.  I still think about him alot.  My now husband knew him and what he means to me.  He is very understanding.  His girlfriend killed herself.  I guess in a weird way we have a "bond" through death.  I went to the cemetery the other day.  He is buried right in front of my sister.  There is a picture on his headstone and it is the beaming, happy face of a boy I loved so very long ago. 

I think Ennis knew this kind of pain and just accepted the fact that  that he would never be with Jack again.   If he couldnt fix it, he had to stand it.  I'm sure he felt alot of grief over the fact that he could never let go and just be with Jack.  So very, very sad.  I think he trudged along without Jack in the same way he did with him alive.  Atleast he had his dreams.

[serious crayons]

It's true, Diane, we don't see eye to eye, and ultimately we will probably have to agree to disagree. So many of our discussions wind up at this impasse over Ennis' psychology.

But, oh well, it's not like we have a million other things to talk about! So, while we're on the subject ...   

I think the views that Ennis' attitude toward homosexuality doesn't change much, that he blames gayness rather than killers for Jack's death, that he's unable to experience his own feelings, that he didn't accept Jack's love, and so on -- those views don't giving Ennis enough credit.

Being raised homophobic and terrified doesn't, in my view, preclude Ennis' ability to change. Many people overcome, at least partly, childhood prejudices and terrible baggage. Why would Ennis be any less capable? He's uptight and inhibited, but not stupid or insensitive. And he has a lot of experiences of the sort that would lead one to change.

Just because Ennis is withdrawn doesn't mean he has no understanding of his own emotions. Yes, sometimes they are explosive, and he is skilled at hiding and repressing them. But I see no evidence (in the movie) that he never recognizes them at all. The last day on Brokeback, for example, BEFORE the fight, he goes off and broods. Not about his lost pay, I'm pretty sure. There are lots of times when he appears to be wracked by his own feelings. Granted, he never talks about them to anyone, even Jack. But we, the viewers, can see them pretty clearly. (That's the genius of Heath's performance, if you ask me.)

Just because Ennis is homophobic doesn't mean he would be morally blind enough to blame gayness itself, rather than murderers, for Jack's death. I don't think he interprets even Earl's death that way, let alone Jack's. He was warped by his father's bigotry, but I think he knew full well that Earl's murderers were wrong.

To me, the main plot of the movie is Ennis coming to terms with his sexuality -- albeit too late. That's the tragedy. He does take some leaps -- TS1 was a biggie -- and he makes gradual progress throughout the movie (people "suspect"). And by the end, well, I'm not saying he goes on to become a gay rights activist or anything, but I think that in realizing what he his homophobia cost him, he comes to some degree of private peace with his sexuality.

Not with his grief, though. Maybe it's just that his grief shows him there are worse things in the world than being gay.

Had Ennis been able to accept Jack’s love

I think he did accept it, completely. Only on his own terms, though, which meant seeing each other occasionally in the wilderness rather than living together openly.

Ennis realized how he squandered their 20 years together. Ultimately, Ennis hates himself for what he did and didn’t do, what he lost and what he’ll never have.

I think the time they spent together was wonderful. I'd be overjoyed to have a relationship like that, even on an occasional basis (though of course, like Jack, I'd want more). But yes, he's undoubtedly mad at himself for letting his fears keep him from enjoying all the time they could have had together.

[dly64]

I think the views that Ennis' attitude toward homosexuality doesn't change much, that he blames gayness rather than killers for Jack's death, that he's unable to experience his own feelings, that he didn't accept Jack's love, and so on -- those views don't giving Ennis enough credit.

Being raised homophobic and terrified doesn't, in my view, preclude Ennis' ability to change. Many people overcome, at least partly, childhood prejudices and terrible baggage. Why would Ennis be any less capable? He's uptight and inhibited, but not stupid or insensitive. And he has a lot of experiences of the sort that would lead one to change.

I acknowledge that I don’t understand Ennis as well as Jack. Much of what I think and feel is from the perspective of someone who has been constantly disappointed by a person who I have loved. But I do think that experiencing a traumatic event, especially in childhood, leaves an indelible mark. I am not implying Ennis is stupid or insensitive. What I am saying is that everything Ennis thinks and feels (especially in regards to his sexuality) is filtered through the teachings of his childhood.

Let me try to explain this in a different way: A child is raised in a strict God-fearing home and is taught that sex is evil and bad (especially outside of marriage). So, when s/he reaches adolescence and begins to become aware of his/her own sexuality there is conflict. S/he has been taught to hate his/her feelings. Consequently, every relationship this person goes through is tainted by his/her perception that sex is dirty. It is extremely difficult to extricate that point of view. Ultimately, this person has troubles acknowledging/ accepting that sex is a good thing … especially when it is with someone you love …  that it is enjoyable and that it can be an expression of two people’s love for each other. It doesn’t mean this person can’t change. It just means that what s/he was taught as a child never goes away completely.

Just because Ennis is withdrawn doesn't mean he has no understanding of his own emotions. Yes, sometimes they are explosive, and he is skilled at hiding and repressing them. But I see no evidence (in the movie) that he never recognizes them at all. The last day on Brokeback, for example, BEFORE the fight, he goes off and broods. Not about his lost pay, I'm pretty sure. There are lots of times when he appears to be wracked by his own feelings. Granted, he never talks about them to anyone, even Jack. But we, the viewers, can see them pretty clearly. (That's the genius of Heath's performance, if you ask me.)

If I insinuated that Ennis is completely out of touch with everything he thinks and feels, then I am wrong. Maybe the way to describe it is that Ennis has a lot of fear in regards to his emotions … he is not comfortable expressing them (with the exception of anger).

Just because Ennis is homophobic doesn't mean he would be morally blind enough to blame gayness itself, rather than murderers, for Jack's death. I don't think he interprets even Earl's death that way, let alone Jack's. He was warped by his father's bigotry, but I think he knew full well that Earl's murderers were wrong.

Honestly, I don’t think we disagree. Maybe I have not expressed myself clearly. I am not saying that Ennis would excuse the murderers. It is more that Ennis believes Jack became a target because he was a homosexual.

To me, the main plot of the movie is Ennis coming to terms with his sexuality -- albeit too late. That's the tragedy. He does take some leaps -- TS1 was a biggie -- and he makes gradual progress throughout the movie (people "suspect"). And by the end, well, I'm not saying he goes on to become a gay rights activist or anything, but I think that in realizing what he his homophobia cost him, he comes to some degree of private peace with his sexuality.

Not with his grief, though. Maybe it's just that his grief shows him there are worse things in the world than being gay.

I think he did accept it, completely. Only on his own terms, though, which meant seeing each other occasionally in the wilderness rather than living together openly.

I agree with much of what you are saying. The biggest difference is that I don’t think Ennis was ever at “peace” with his sexuality. Yes, he came to realize that he was gay. But I don’t think he was ever comfortable with it. However, when it was just Jack and Ennis on BBM, Ennis had the freedom to express his sexuality and his love for Jack openly. But isn’t that what BBM represents, at least in part? The freedom from societal bigotry and hatred … the feeling that they were invisible … that it was only the two of them and nothing else mattered? Isn’t that what Ennis tried to return to every time he and Jack went on one of their so-called fishing trips?

I think the time they spent together was wonderful. I'd be overjoyed to have a relationship like that, even on an occasional basis (though of course, like Jack, I'd want more). But yes, he's undoubtedly mad at himself for letting his fears keep him from enjoying all the time they could have had together.

I agree. OMG ... can this be true!? 

[serious crayons]

Wowee! I think maybe we do agree on quite a bit more than we previously thought.

 

Of course, there are a FEW little things ... 

I acknowledge that I don’t understand Ennis as well as Jack. Much of what I think and feel is from the perspective of someone who has been constantly disappointed by a person who I have loved.

I was wondering about that, given what you've mentioned about your life. And, as I've said, I relate more to Ennis. I'm more outgoing and open, but there are other aspects of his personality I recognize.

Not the childhood scarring, thank god. I had a pretty good childhood. Still, I've known people who weren't as lucky, and yet managed to find health and happiness as adults.

But I do think that experiencing a traumatic event, especially in childhood, leaves an indelible mark....

Absolutely. I'm not saying he'd ever completely forget about his past, or that those teachings would be easily overcome.

A child is raised in a strict God-fearing home and is taught that sex is evil and bad (especially outside of marriage). So, when s/he reaches adolescence and begins to become aware of his/her own sexuality there is conflict. S/he has been taught to hate his/her feelings. Consequently, every relationship this person goes through is tainted by his/her perception that sex is dirty. It is extremely difficult to extricate that point of view. Ultimately, this person has troubles acknowledging/ accepting that sex is a good thing.

I guess I view people as frequently more flexible and resillient than that. Sure, those parental teachings can lead to big internal -- or external! -- conflict, particularly in adolescence. But I have friends with very strict sex-is-bad Catholic backgrounds who, upon reaching maturity, were able to look around and see that there are healthier ways of viewing sexuality. I also know, or know of, open-minded people who grew up in bigoted families, moderate drinkers whose parents were alcoholics, leftists raised by right-wingers, and so on. I know all kinds of adults whose family backgrounds are extremely different from their lives now, because they got exposed to other ways of thinking and realized they no longer agreed with their parents.

I'm not saying that kind of deep-seated change is easy or quick. Of course there's struggle. Maybe it often involves some kind of epiphany or conversion experience, or meeting someone influential -- teacher, lover, friend -- with a very different view.

And it varies by degree and life experiences and character. Some people obviously never reject their childhood teachings or overcome those traumas. But in any case, plenty of people do. They never forget what they learned in childhood, but they are able to see the flaws and move forward.

Now for Ennis, it would be particularly difficult. He's uneducated, he has always lived in the same area and is among the same kind of people he grew up with (those big changes often seem triggered by education or a different environment or meeting people with different outlooks). And his father's views were passed down in a particularly harsh and cruel way -- through terror -- and hit particularly close to home for Ennis because of his own sexuality. And in his case, the views he needs to reject aren't just held by his dad, but by pretty much everyone around him.

So change would be incredibly difficult. That's probably why he doesn't progress much over 20 years -- except when really big things (good or bad) happen to him.

One is falling in love with Jack, and deciding to act on it at Brokeback, and to continue the relationship later. Another is the big argument with Jack and Ennis' breakup with Cassie. And another is Jack's death and the events that follow: the phone call to Lureen, the visit with the Twists -- one of whom is loving and accepts their relationship, the other of whom is hateful and in many ways resembles his own father but amazingly accepts their relationship nevertheless -- and then his own unfathomable grief.

All these experiences, IMO, lead him to new ways of looking at things that are quite different from what he was taught growing up.

[SFEnnisSF]

I read a heartbreaking fan fiction where Ennis went up to Brokeback and took his own life.  It was plausible & sensitively written. 

What was the name of that Fan Fiction?

[ednbarby]

What was the name of that Fan Fiction?

I wonder if she meant that one of Jeff's I've always loved so much.  I don't recall him taking his own life actively in that one, but doing it in that passive way we've discussed and going up there to die when he knew he was on his way out.  "Some Sweet Life," isn't it?  Help me out, Jeff.  Or someone else who knows what I mean.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I wonder if she meant that one of Jeff's I've always loved so much.  I don't recall him taking his own life actively in that one, but doing it in that passive way we've discussed and going up there to die when he knew he was on his way out.  "Some Sweet Life," isn't it?  Help me out, Jeff.  Or someone else who knows what I mean.

Aw, thanks, Barb. 

In my story, "Some Sweet Life," Ennis basically goes back to the mountain to die, but he doesn't kill himself.

I also remember a story I read on LiveJournal, titled, I believe, "A Dying Wind," which I remember as implying that Ennis goes back to the mountain to die, but I don't remember him actively killing himself in that story, either.

I remember "A Dying Wind" as being generally a very good story, and also very well written, though I took issue with one aspect, Ennis remembering, ahem, a certain sexual action said to have taken place before he and Jack came down off Brokeback that I found implausible, given what we know of Ennis in either the story or the film.

[ednbarby]

I remember "A Dying Wind" as being generally a very good story, and also very well written, though I took issue with one aspect, Ennis remembering, ahem, a certain sexual action said to have taken place before he and Jack came down off Brokeback that I found implausible, given what we know of Ennis in either the story or the film.

:thud:

{Barb runs off to find that story.}

 

I haven't really read that one (yet), but I reckon you're right. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

:thud:

{Barb runs off to find that story.}

 

I haven't really read that one (yet), but I reckon you're right. 

Barb,

If you can't find "A Dying Wind," let me know. I just checked my files and I forgot I had downloaded it.

Jeff

[dly64]

I say, “No,” to his committing suicide, not just because he’s a stander. When he faces a “crisis” moment (big or small), he tends to deal with it immediately: he confronts the bikers, figgers he can drop the kids off with Alma, punches the truck driver. If Ennis were going to kill himself over the loss of Jack, it’d be more likely to happen right after he returned home with the shirts, or even on the way home (driving off a mountain, maybe). Jack has been dead for a while and Ennis is still around, even putting numbers on a mailbox and looking darned pleased with how nice they look.

I think it’s significant that Proulx writes, “Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams...” and not “He began seeing Jack everywhere he looked...”

I would say that Ennis deals with crises impulsively versus immediately. He has a way of stuffing his emotions until they come exploding out. It’s not the bikers or the truck driver that cause Ennis to explode. That is only the manifestation of his frustration and fear. The only time Ennis is “in tune” with his emotions is when they relate somehow to Jack. Examples of this would be when, post mountain, Ennis breaks down after Jack drives away; or when Ennis is pacing and watching the window for hours for Jack to arrive … when he (Jack) does, Ennis is infused with joy.

Although I don’t think Ennis would overtly kill himself, I do think he would have become more withdrawn and bitter. Eventually, Ennis would have allowed himself to whither away and die. Depressing to be sure, but IMO accurate. In Ennis’ world, he has nothing left … “If you don’t have nothin’ you don’t need nothin’.”  What does Ennis have left? A memory of a time and place where he (Ennis) loved Jack openly and honestly and the grief and guilt over having squandered the nearly 20 years of their lives together.

When Oregon was debating assisted suicide, one psychiatrist observed, “Suicide is the simultaneous inflicting and relief of pain.” Ennis is in a lot of pain at many times during his life, but would he seek to relieve (fix) it in the “ultimate” way? I don’t think so. “You’re stayin’ on your feet, cowboy” has several meanings.

I like this observation … one I have not thought about previously.

[nic]

What was the name of that Fan Fiction?

Sorry, I can't recall it as it was in the early days.  It was quite detailed about the plans Ennis made going up to the mountain.  It wasn't Jeff's, although I do like his story    Not sure if it was A Dying Wind as I can't find that one to compare.  I'll check around a bit more and post again if I find it.  Sorry to have piqued your curiosity and not following through.

[Marge_Innavera]

I'm not saying he'd ever completely forget about his past, or that those teachings would be easily overcome.

I guess I view people as frequently more flexible and resillient than that. Sure, those parental teachings can lead to big internal -- or external! -- conflict, particularly in adolescence. But I have friends with very strict sex-is-bad Catholic backgrounds who, upon reaching maturity, were able to look around and see that there are healthier ways of viewing sexuality. I also know, or know of, open-minded people who grew up in bigoted families, moderate drinkers whose parents were alcoholics, leftists raised by right-wingers, and so on. I know all kinds of adults whose family backgrounds are extremely different from their lives now, because they got exposed to other ways of thinking and realized they no longer agreed with their parents.

I'm not saying that kind of deep-seated change is easy or quick. Of course there's struggle. Maybe it often involves some kind of epiphany or conversion experience, or meeting someone influential -- teacher, lover, friend -- with a very different view. . . .

Now for Ennis, it would be particularly difficult. He's uneducated, he has always lived in the same area and is among the same kind of people he grew up with (those big changes often seem triggered by education or a different environment or meeting people with different outlooks). And his father's views were passed down in a particularly harsh and cruel way -- through terror -- and hit particularly close to home for Ennis because of his own sexuality. And in his case, the views he needs to reject aren't just held by his dad, but by pretty much everyone around him.

I absolutely think that Ennis could go through some big changes in the years following the end of the original story, but never get away from his problems completely. That's how it generally is when people make big changes - they come slowly, in layers, but when someone seems to just totally and quickly change that's often bad news. The reality is that there's been very little change but the person starts going to opposite extremes to "prove" to themselves otherwise.

Ennis' isolation is a major factor: he wouldn't even have much way of knowing that his own experience isn't a completely unique one.  But one thing that might move him around a bit geographically is that the mobility in American life got ratcheted up considerably after the early 1980s, not that it hadn't been a marked trend since WWII. And for Ennis, that might mean his daughters would eventually move out of the area. If the alternative is being left completely alone with no contact with Junior or Francine/Jenny other than phone calls, he might very well move to be near them or even live with one of them after he's somewhat older.

In short, my guess would be that Ennis might change a lot over the years, might even find someone else but given the human psyche's resistance to change, we couldn't expect to see him at the Gay Games or becoming any kind of social butterfly.   

[dly64]

In short, my guess would be that Ennis might change a lot over the years, might even find someone else but given the human psyche's resistance to change, we couldn't expect to see him at the Gay Games or becoming any kind of social butterfly.   

That is an understatement!

I argue, however, that Ennis becomes more isolative and bitter after Jack dies. I don’t see him making any significant changes. Ennis does recognize, however, how his own actions have caused hurt and disappointment towards the ones he has loved (when he agrees to go to Junior’s wedding).  But Ennis will always have guilt, anger and fear. He realizes, in a heartbreaking and final way, that he frittered away 20 years.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Sorry, I can't recall it as it was in the early days.  It was quite detailed about the plans Ennis made going up to the mountain.  It wasn't Jeff's, although I do like his story    Not sure if it was A Dying Wind as I can't find that one to compare.  I'll check around a bit more and post again if I find it.  Sorry to have piqued your curiosity and not following through.

Thanks, nic. Much obliged! 

~J.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I don't think Ennis woud have ever even thought of suicide. He had dealt with great loss early in his life and he was able to deal with it. He was able to count his blessings, had two daughters, and experenced the love of a lfetime. He knew how to 'stand it'.

[JT]

IMO, I don't think Ennis would commit suicide, but I don't think he'll live to be that old either.  He does have his daughters to look forward to and maybe see both their marriages.  Perhaps, even see his grandchildres growing up, but after that, he'll slowly waste away.  After all, his other half is gone and it's a matter of time before the living half will follow. 

[dly64]

After all, his other half is gone and it's a matter of time before the living half will follow. 

Interesting analogy. It makes me sad ... but I think there is truth there!

[jpwagoneer1964]

Experincing the love he had with Jack would sustain Ennis for the rest of his life.

[SFEnnisSF]

Interesting analogy. It makes me sad ... but I think there is truth there!

It's true, many folks do die of a broken heart. 

[JT]

It's true, many folks do die of a broken heart. 

Yes, that's true.  Especially if they really love each other, like our boys do.  Sorry to make you sad Diane.  It makes me sad also often to the point of tears to think that, but that's how I see Ennis.  He cried everytime he sees the shirts and when he dreamt of Jack, he felt pleasure as well as sadness.  To me, he is longing to be with Jack again but needs to live to see his daughters through.  I still don't think he'll commit suicide though.

[Momof2]

I have never thought he would commit suicide.  Ennis is a strong person and he would proably see commiting suicide as a weakness.  I also feel like he would want to live on and be strong for Jack even though he is gone.  Like a tribute to him.  Do something for him in death that he could never do in life.  Accept and be free.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I have never thought he would commit suicide.  Ennis is a strong person and he would proably see commiting suicide as a weakness.  I also feel like he would want to live on and be strong for Jack even though he is gone.  Like a tribute to him.  Do something for him in death that he could never do in life.  Accept and be free.

Very well said.

[Rayn]

I have often wondered what happened to Ennis after grows older and alone. With Wyoming having the highest suicide rate in the United States …. the majority of those suicides being single, elderly men … would Ennis be included in those stats?

... as Ennis grew older, the bitterer he became because of what he did, what he lost and what he’ll never have. But … would that lead to suicide?

It's an interesting question, dly64, and if I were to consider it for the times Ennis was living in and the statistics on suicide recorded then, I would have to say that Ennis would have been very vulnerable to suicide, yes.  I would also be arriving at that conclusion based on Ennis' tough childhood and childhood traumas.  He was already living in so much fear because of them and the grief he was feeling over the loss of Jack would not have been easy to overcome. 

I think there is a chance that he could've made it and come out ok too.  I say this because I identify with Ennis on a personal level.  I had some serious traumas in my childhood and having been raised in a very religious family, just getting in touch with my feelings and coming out were nearly traumas in themselves.  It took years of therapy to get free, not only of fear, but of booze and drugs and depression as well. 

I'm ok now, but I'm alone after the loss of a longtime love.  Still, having overcome my difficulites made me strong, but I was also smart enough to seek help and follow through with therapy.  Had I not been as intelligent or had therapy not been available to me, I could have lost the battle and died.   Contemplation of suicide was actually what drove me to seek help in the end, an end which was really, a beginning.

So, it's possible that Ennis would be ok, people do survive grief, loss, trauma, loneliness.  It depends on what they do to heal themselves and to make it through life.  I do think Ennis was pretty smart too.  It was his emotional problems that held him back, hurt him and those he loved.  None of that was his fault, but he wasn't a well man.  He was a good man, a very sweet man deep down, but with problems that made him dysfunctional.

I'd like to think he could've gotten a handle on them and survived, but then I'm an optimist most often and we all tend to look at/see things through the filters of our own experiences.  I hope if there are others out there reading this thread, this letter, they will be encouraged and if they are thinking of hurting themselves, they will seek and find help and healing.  Knowing how it feels, that is my sincere hope because there are always other people who care and who will listen and though it may not feel so at times, no one is ever completely alone.  We all share an invisible connection with each other.

Peace,
Rayn

[Rayn]

AN AFTERTHOUGHT TO MY OWN POST...

"If you can't fix it, you got a stand it."   Ennis.

"For how long?"  Jack.

"For as long as we can ride it."   Ennis.


Ennis was a damn good rider.         Rayn

[JT]

That's a very good letter, Rayn.  I hope people will read it and understand that they need to fight on.  Many of us gay folks usually go through the path of contemplating suicide at one point or another in our lives.  It's very improtant to seek professional help and it's always good to have friends who'll listen and be supportive.  I have neither, but still manage to survive.  I think Ennis would survive too.  As long as there's a glimmer of hope and happiness that he can hold on to, he'll survive, even if it's not as long as a normal life span.

[nic]

Yes, I agree that was an excellent post Ryan.  Several things rang bells with me in it, about past trauma, family background, coping mechanisms & the recognition that external help is needed.  I have been there. I am fortunate in that I haven't lost a great love & after learning the story of BBM, that is one of the things that it brought out to me - how would I cope if I did?  I am glad to hear that you made it through Ryan, & sought help.  This gives me a hope that if I did find myself in that situation, I too would be able to pull through.

I have a friend who did not seek help when I recommended it but about 10yrs later he did & says he wished he had done it earlier.  I maintained that at least he had done it now & in some ways, think that you have to be ready to accept help.  I think you can be in a state to accept help, without consciously realising it.  For example, you might feel like "I don't think going for counselling will do any good but I'll go anway" & when you get there you actually find it can  be of some help.

It's such a shame Jack & Ennis could not have been together, as I think Ennis would have opened up more.  He is so enclosed.  Jack is the only one that saw the true Ennis.  Ennis is open to a certain extent with Alma, but he will always be a father to her.  He needs to be properly recognised as a queer man (or at least as a man who happens to be in love with another man) & then he can deal with it himself.  This is what was the catalyst for me realising I needed to get help - someone seeing me for me, despite all the armour I had put up.  Jack may have been enough to help him do this, whereas  in another situation, this could be achieved by seeking external help but in Ennis's life that is not an option - he would never accept help, yet he still survives.   

[Marge_Innavera]

I argue, however, that Ennis becomes more isolative and bitter after Jack dies. I don’t see him making any significant changes.

I tend to be analyzing the movie rather than the original story, as the film touched me at a depth the story never got to. And in that context - in the final scene, I didn't see Ennis as moving in a more isolated and bitter direction. Even after multiple viewings (lost track of how many), his acting as upbeat as he manages to in the final scene is actually kind of startling, although it's clear in the "Jack, I swear" moment that the grief is still very raw and close to the surface. And this would be roughly a year after Jack has died.

Moreover, he might not be the one to make changes. If he loses his job, if his daughters move away and he moves with them, changes might be there whether he wants them or not.

But Ennis will always have guilt, anger and fear. He realizes, in a heartbreaking and final way, that he frittered away 20 years.

Most of us do have baggage like that by the time we reach midlife; although Ennis' is heavier than most.

[dly64]

I'd like to think he could've gotten a handle on them and survived, but then I'm an optimist most often and we all tend to look at/see things through the filters of our own experiences.  I hope if there are others out there reading this thread, this letter, they will be encouraged and if they are thinking of hurting themselves, they will seek and find help and healing.  Knowing how it feels, that is my sincere hope because there are always other people who care and who will listen and though it may not feel so at times, no one is ever completely alone.  We all share an invisible connection with each other.

Peace,
Rayn

Beautifully stated, Rayn! I have been very close myself ... not because of my sexuality (I am hetero), but because everything seemed to come crashing down around me. But help ... it's there. I love what you said here ... "We all share an invisible connection with each other." Thanks for being such an optimist! 

[Rayn]

Well friends, thanks for your feedback on my hopes for a brighter future for anyone coping with grief or depression.  It's an important issue, which many of us, men and women in and outside our community experience.   

I know the statistics for suicide are higher for the GayLesbianBiTransexual Community, so my deeper concern is for people there, but anyone who becomes depressed or goes through grief due to the death of loved one or family member is vulnerable to self-destructive impluses. 

The remedy is early recognition in ourselves and others then dealing with it through treatment.  It's like any other disease, early detection makes it easier to treat, heal and get on with a happy life.

Peace,
Rayn

[Katie77]

I am no expert on suicide, but have encountered it in my family.....my father committed suicide, a few years after his gay partnership ended.......

My dad had lost his 22 year old daughter about 10 years before that....which to me would have been more traumatic than the break up of his partnership....but maybe its not just one single thing, its when, as they say, "the glass is full", that they just dont want to take anymore hurt and unhappiness in their life.

My son, when aged 23 also attempted suicide, when his marriage broke up, and his wife took their baby son, and refused him access to him.  After many years enduring the slow court system he now sees his son regularly.

Reports here in Australia, show statistics, that it is young men who are more likely to commit suicide...and fathers in custody battles for their children are among those increasing numbers.....another case, when sometimes it just gets too hard and too painful to keep going, that they think ending their life, will give them some peace....

I heard the best quote the other day, which sums up suicide.....

Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem....and I tend to agree with that....

[Momof2]

[
Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem....and I tend to agree with that....

I agree with this statement.  I had a really hard childhood and have had many hard times as an adult.  I have never thought of suicide.  It is the people that are left behind that suffer.  They are the ones that have to deal with it.  My husbands girlfriend killed herself a few months after they broke up.  That was 20 years ago and he still blames himself for it.  I have a really close family member whose boyfriend blew his head off in front of her.  It is unbearable thing to deal with.  I have already stated that I do not think Ennis would have committed suicide.  He loved his children to much.

[moremojo]

I have come to see suicide as simply one doorway into death--it's no more, or less, moral than dying from a heart attack, succumbing to cancer, being killed in an accident or disaster, or any other way that people can and do pass out of this earthly existence (and which we all must, and will, do in our turn, someday). What I'm trying to suggest here is that there need be no guilt felt by those left behind by a suicide, and it is certainly not for me to judge someone who chooses that route. All I can guess at is that, at the moment it happened, a suicide seemed like the best option for the person who committed it, and I will only bless them and wish them peace. It is also instructive to reflect on the myriad ways that we, both individually and as a civilization, are arguably committing suicide, though our behavior may not widely be openly acknowledged as suicidal.

Proulx's last line is the fulcrum by which this issue, to my mind, revolves..."if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." Suicide is a form of fixing, the kind that transpires when someone can't stand it anymore. If Ennis ever got to that point, suicide may have occurred. But the story both opens and ends with him, grief-stricken though he is, standing it. All else can only remain speculation, and is another way in which the author forces us to finish the story in our own lives, in our own hearts.

[Rayn]

"Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem..."   

I disagree, because there are other ways to see it, ways that make sucidie an even worse choice.
The western world doesn't have the last say on what happens after death.

There are billions of people who believe suicide isn't a permanent solution because death isn't a permanent event.   

Killing is a cause that creates very bad effects, so from a Buddhist or Hindu view, suicide just gets you greater suffering and more trouble in the next life and lives thereafter. 

Suicide is a choice made out of selfish ignorance, emotion or mental illness.  It's to be avoided by all means.   Having said that, I will add that from a Buddhist view again, the individual is ultimately responsible for taking or perserving his or her life and not taking the life of anyone else.

I would never encourage a suicide, I would attempt to save the person's life if possible, but if a person I knew took their own life anyway, I would feel very sad, but I would not feel guilty.


Rayn

[dly64]

"Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem..."   

I disagree, because there are other ways to see it, ways that make sucidie an even worse choice.
The western world doesn't have the last say on what happens after death.

There are billions of people who believe suicide isn't a permanent solution because death isn't a permanent event.   

Killing is a cause that creates very bad effects, so from a Buddhist or Hindu view, suicide just gets you greater suffering and more trouble in the next life and lives thereafter. 

Suicide is a choice made out of selfish ignorance, emotion or mental illness.  It's to be avoided by all means.   Having said that, I will add that from a Buddhist view again, the individual is ultimately responsible for taking or perserving his or her life and not taking the life of anyone else.

I would never encourage a suicide, I would attempt to save the person's life if possible, but if a person I knew took their own life anyway, I would feel very sad, but I would not feel guilty.


Rayn

I understand where you are coming from, but, IMO death = finality on earth. In other words, your physical being is no longer present. The problem we run into, especially among high-risk groups, is the realization that suicide is the end of life as they know it. It solves nothing. It is an act of desperation and, at times, an act of anger. Loved ones are left with an inability to process what has occurred and why. There are no answers.

[serious crayons]

at the moment it happened, a suicide seemed like the best option for the person who committed it

I think the key phrase is "at the moment it happened." The trouble is, a moment later -- or a day later, a month later, a year later -- it might no longer have seemed like such a good option.

People who unsuccessfully attempt suicide -- people who jump off bridges but survive, for instance -- often later report having regretted the act immediately after taking it. Others are glad they weren't successful, once their circumstances change and/or their depression is treated. Young people in particular tend to perceive suicide as glamorous and romantic, or as an effective way to "get back" at those who have hurt them. As Diane said, many are unable to grasp the finality of death -- whatever we believe about the afterlife, death ends a life, which I think many suicidal people don't fully comprehend.

I don't think of suicide as "immoral," nor do I think loved ones should feel guilty. But (except in cases where the person is suffering from a terminal illness) they often do. Personally, I wouldn't commit suicide if only because I couldn't be that cruel to my children.

My grandfather committed suicide -- shot himself in the head in an upstairs bedroom while my grandmother was working the night shift. My grandmother came home and found him, then called her son. My uncle got to drive to the house in the middle of the night and help her deal with the situation.

[dly64]

My grandfather committed suicide -- shot himself in the head in an upstairs bedroom while my grandmother was working the night shift. My grandmother came home and found him, then called her son. My uncle got to drive to the house in the middle of the night and help her deal with the situation.

I never knew that, Katherine. I am so sorry. I would guess that those who are left behind are always wondering why. I would also guess there would be a degree of anger ....

[serious crayons]

I never knew that, Katherine. I am so sorry. I would guess that those who are left behind are always wondering why. I would also guess there would be a degree of anger ....

Thanks, Diane. I was very young -- and in fact didn't hear that he had killed himself until years later. My grandmother was a very strong woman and my uncle a very practical guy, so I never heard them react much to it. But it couldn't have been easy.

[moremojo]

I don't think of suicide as "immoral," nor do I think loved ones should feel guilty. But (except in cases where the person is suffering from a terminal illness) they often do. Personally, I wouldn't commit suicide if only because I couldn't be that cruel to my children.

I think we're on the same page on much of this issue, except I don't see suicide as an act of cruelty, but rather an act of desperation. My mother attempted suicide once, and my sister felt very betrayed by her, but I did not. I recognized that my mother was in a very sick and desperate place in her life, and saw no other way out at the time. She was acting in a way that was consistent with her views and feelings at the moment, and of course I'm glad that she made it through that darkness and fought for more life, but I wouldn't have cursed her if she had succeeded.

I hope I don't sound like a calloused person. I don't see myself as calloused, but at the same time this issue goes to the very heart of questions of self-determination, which is one of the ideals I cherish most. We want our loved ones with us, and wish them happiness and health. At the same time, none of us can truly understand what it is to be another person; we can only infer another's experiences and feelings based on our own. Is it my place to insist that a person who feels that he is in hell stay there because his presence comforts or pleases me? And ultimately, I feel that if a person does not own her own life, then she owns nothing.

Did Jesus commit suicide by offering himself up to martyrdom? Does any martyr, in a sense, commit suicide? I think one can argue affirmatively for this. My paternal grandfather died of chronic alcoholism; did he commit a form of passive suicide? Again, I think one can submit that case. Are we as a species collectively committing suicide by willfully and consciously poisoning and destroying our natural resources, knowing full well we are diminishing, at the very least, the quality of life of those coming after us? I'm inclined to say yes.

I'm very interested to note that we tend to privilege happiness and joy as being illustrative of how life should be, or even how life "really is", treating times of pain and sorrow as aberrations that somehow need to be overcome or solved. I actually think that the universe is a neutral field onto which we project our own biases and hopes; it is not surprising that we strive for happiness, but the choice of seeing the world as a vale of tears is no less "true" or "accurate". It's all a matter of perspective.

The ultimate reality is that we all, whether our lives be long or short, happy, sad, or neutral, eventful or nondescript, meet the same end. Apart from the issue of causing or experiencing needless suffering to oneself or to others, does it really matter how one's death is compassed? For me personally, at this moment in time, the answer is no.

Respectfully,
Scott

[Katie77]

I think the key phrase is "at the moment it happened." The trouble is, a moment later -- or a day later, a month later, a year later -- it might no longer have seemed like such a good option.

People who unsuccessfully attempt suicide -- people who jump off bridges but survive, for instance -- often later report having regretted the act immediately after taking it. Others are glad they weren't successful, once their circumstances change and/or their depression is treated. Young people in particular tend to perceive suicide as glamorous and romantic, or as an effective way to "get back" at those who have hurt them. As Diane said, many are unable to grasp the finality of death -- whatever we believe about the afterlife, death ends a life, which I think many suicidal people don't fully comprehend.

I agree with what you write here latjoreme...my son attempted suicide, when his wife left him and took their son from him.  In those first weeks, after she left him, he did not know who to turn to to help him, he was unaware of the judicial system in family court matters, and he was just heartbroken that his comfortable world had been destroyed.......

Thank God, his suicide attempt was unsucessful....he went on to have the courage to fight for constant contact with his son, he eventually met a new partner, he has another child, and he lives a very happy life....

After his suicide attempt, he underwent councelling, which opened up his mind to the demons that took over him, to make him contemplate taking his own life.  He then took on training courses, which then enabled him to be able to help others in the same situation.  He manned Life Line telephone help lines, and eventually, he had the opportunity to save another young man from suicide.

I remember him telling me that this young man had said to him, "there's got to be something better, after this life".....and my son said to him "well, maybe there is, and maybe there isnt.....but you can't be certain....at least you know what is in this life, you must have had some happiness here at some stage, if you work at it, you should be able to find that here again".....

The key phrase is "the moment it happens"....if someone is there to get them thru that "moment", there is probably less chance they will do it.

As far as feeling guilty about a family member committing suicide, as I have mentioned, my father committed suicide, and the feeling I had was, "maybe if i had been there with him, or we had spoken about more things, he may not have done it".

I am amazed at how this thread has turned into a discussion on suicide, not that i object, I think it is good that so many people have written in their opinions and experiences.....if it helps just one person, then it is all worthwhile.

[serious crayons]

I think we're on the same page on much of this issue, except I don't see suicide as an act of cruelty, but rather an act of desperation.

Scott, I think we're on the same page on some issues, but not all. I don't see suicide as a deliberate act of cruelty, just an inadvertent one. My children would suffer if I died of cancer or were run over by a bus, but I would not be choosing that fate and their consequent suffering. Suicide -- even if the product of desperation -- is a choice. (And can contribute, rightly or not, to a sense of guilt among survivors.)

I hope I don't sound like a calloused person.

You don't. On the contrary, you sound very empathetic and understanding. And the idea of self-determination, of owning one's own life, I can agree with. That's why I don't consider suicide immoral. That is, I think people have the right to do it, just as they have the right to make other mistakes. I just think usually it's a bad idea.

Is it my place to insist that a person who feels that he is in hell stay there because his presence comforts or pleases me?

I think it's reasonable to urge a person who feels that he is in hell to try to get out of it a different way, because most likely it's possible.

Did Jesus commit suicide by offering himself up to martyrdom? Does any martyr, in a sense, commit suicide?

Well, I think to some extent it's an apple-orange comparison. Martyrs choose their own deaths on behalf of a larger cause. Whether any particular cause is worth it is arguable, but presumably their action is at least expected to have positive consequences for others. Typical suicides, not committed on behalf of a cause, do not have positive consequences for others.

My paternal grandfather died of chronic alcoholism; did he commit a form of passive suicide?

Well, again, I see some important differences. Someone who dies of chronic alcoholism (or smoking, or unhealthy eating) dies slowly, over many years. In effect, he makes the choice to die (and rarely is it a conscious and deliberate choice) every day. Theoretically, he could change his mind at any time, and act on it: quit drinking. A suicide makes the choice -- and it is conscious and deliberate-- in one irrevocable moment. And afterward, he can't change his mind.

the choice of seeing the world as a vale of tears is no less "true" or "accurate". It's all a matter of perspective.

I agree that it's a matter of perspective. But even most pessimists have their good days and bad days. Rarely do people feel suicidal on a prolonged, permanent basis. If I feel like committing suicide today, but might not feel that way next week, or even next year, wouldn't I be wise to hold off?

The ultimate reality is that we all, whether our lives be long or short, happy, sad, or neutral, eventful or nondescript, meet the same end. Apart from the issue of causing or experiencing needless suffering to oneself or to others, does it really matter how one's death is accomplished?

To me, the key word is not "how," but "when." It's true that ultimately we all meet the same end. But we don't all take the same amount of time getting there. I can't be philosophically detached enough to say that, all other things being equal, a long life is not preferable to a short life.

Katie, your post came in as I was writing this. Thank you for sharing the story of your son and your father. Those both must have been terrible experiences for you and your family, and thank god it worked out the way it did in your son's case. You have illustrated in heartwrenching reality the point I was trying to make in theory.

[Momof2]

I do not necessarily think of suicide as cruel.  I DO NOT think the family members left behind should every feel guilty, but they do.  It is always the what ifs and whys.  I hope to God that I never become that desparate.  And to me people that committ or attempt to committ suicide are desparate.  Suicide is not the easy way out.  When my son was very little our next door neighbor attempted suicide.  My daughter was crazy about this sweet man and he always seemed happy to me.  My husband who is a fireman went on the call and it affected him tremendously.  I do not think he felt guilty, I think he did as did I wonder how could we have not known he was that desparate.  He was alive when my husband got there and he atleast had so comfort in trying to help him.  Not help him live but help him die with dignity.  Even though it was a self inflicted wound, he deserved to die with dignity.  His daughter told us a few days after he died how much she appreciated my husband helping her daddy.  My husband and I cleaned his house up and threw away everything so she would not have to deal with it.  That is why I would not kill myself.  I would hate to know that someone I loved had to clean up parts of me of find me dead.  I know dead is dead.  To me the difference is for your love ones to know it was not self inflicted. 

[Marge_Innavera]

The western world doesn't have the last say on what happens after death.

There are billions of people who believe suicide isn't a permanent solution because death isn't a permanent event.   

Killing is a cause that creates very bad effects, so from a Buddhist or Hindu view, suicide just gets you greater suffering and more trouble in the next life and lives thereafter.

This is all true; however, it's also a fact that Buddhist and Hindu perspectives are not the only ones in that context. Reincarnation as an afterlife concept has quite a few variants.

A panentheist or even a "New Thought" perspective would say that it doesn't lead to greater suffering per se but that the person will probably have to go back and repeat quite a lot, sort of like being kept back a grade in school, as they didn't finish something they started.

My Religious Science teacher (RS is a "New Thought" teaching) used to say that he was opposed to suicide "because it's a waste of time." Many western perspectives on it, including many conventional religious ones, often have a punitive cast to them.

[Scott6373]

While not requiring bravery per se, the act of suicide does require a great deal of personal courage and conviction.  Most suicide attempt fail because the means were more important to the person than the end.  The act is usually more of a cry for attention than anyting else.

That being said, I can't imagine Ennis succesfully comitting suicide.  He possesed a great sense of right and wrong (albeit quite skewed), and his love for his children, and even Alma would prevent him from doing that.  Ennis was never one to crave attention, and I dare say would go to any lengths to avoid it.  He was the type to think to himself "what would they be saying about me afterwards".

[Katie77]

While not requiring bravery per se, the act of suicide does require a great deal of personal courage and conviction.  Most suicide attempt fail because the means were more important to the person than the end.  The act is usually more of a cry for attention than anyting else.

That being said, I can't imagine Ennis succesfully comitting suicide.  He possesed a great sense of right and wrong (albeit quite skewed), and his love for his children, and even Alma would prevent him from doing that.  Ennis was never one to crave attention, and I dare say would go to any lengths to avoid it.  He was the type to think to himself "what would they be saying about me afterwards".

I agree it is a cry for help, unfortunately, most of the time, when help arrives it is too late.

As for someone not committing suicide because they love their children too much, I think by the time someone is about to commit the act, they have convinced themselves that they are doing whats best for not only themselves, but for all their loved ones as well....which is probably due to the fact that they would not be thinking rationally or sensibly, and have written off any future for themselves, but forget that the people who they leave behind still have a future to face without them.

[Mary Twist]

Ennis take his own life?  Oh, my!  Not on your life.  Some people can only think the worse.  Have mercy.  Ennis is a God-fearing man.  We see each other regularly as mother in law and son in law.  Why, I've periodically reported here at the forum about our touring with Lureen and Alma to promot the Brokeback Mountain movie.  Ennis successfully stopped his drinking moonshine decades ago.  Oh, and regarding cigarettes, Ennis's hope was a borrowed line from my son Jack: "I wish I knew how to quit you".  With the help of the good Lord and a local stop-smoking clinic sponsored by a gay association, my other beloved son Ennis finally quit the awful addiction!  God bless Ennis!

[jpwagoneer1964]

Posted this on "Fantasy Scenes' today which sums up my feelins on the subject.

Don't want folks ta feel bad fer me none.These here shirts, what they mean, worth more that all the gold on earth. Got ta experice best part of life, more that most folks ever do. I know I did the best I knowed how ta protect Jack 'n me. Keep me goin' fer the rest of ma days even if Ah make it ta 100.

[Mary Twist]

Thank you very much Mr. Wagoneer for that wonderful philosophy you captured for Ennis.  Nice to see the shirts and the postcard as well.  You surely are a sensible, honest, and kind man.  Ennis shall like and agree with your words.  I do not know about the "100" yet we never know, do we?  By the way, many decades ago my late husband had a Wagoneer.  May we presume that you do as well? 

Bless,
Mrs. Twist 

[jpwagoneer1964]

   By the way, many decades ago my late husband had a Wagoneer.  May we presume that you do as well? 

Bless,
Mrs. Twist 

Yes I do! It is a 1964, identical to one my grandparents had when I was growing up.

Mark

[Noviani]

Never.

not even crossed his mind.

a guy who would stick to beans, rather them eating the thousand sheeps he should guard.

the guy who endure a 20 years of hidden love because keeping on the mainstream.

he wouldn't go out of track. and besides, Jack will always accompany him or at least how he would feel.

not suicide, but whiskey and too much smoking will, if sadness and loneliness don't get his helath first.

many causes of deaths, but not suicide.

his soul is too tough.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Never.

not even crossed his mind.

a guy who would stick to beans, rather them eating the thousand sheeps he should guard.

the guy who endure a 20 years of hidden love because keeping on the mainstream.

he wouldn't go out of track. and besides, Jack will always accompany him or at least how he would feel.

not suicide, but whiskey and too much smoking will, if sadness and loneliness don't get his helath first.

many causes of deaths, but not suicide.

his soul is too tough.

RIGHT ON!

[Noviani]

Thanks for the Back up, bud

[Monika]

I don't think Ennis would commit suicide--not actively, anyway. That is, I don't think he would have directly killed himself. I just don't think that would be in character for the "can't fix it/got to stand it" kind of guy we know Ennis to be.

On the other hand, Ennis does not lead a particularly healthy lifestyle, despite being an outdoorsman. He smokes too much and drinks too much, undoubtedly has a lousy diet (probably lots of starch and fat and very few fresh fruits and vegetables), and probably has little, no, or poor medical care. I can easily imagine that he wouldn't live much past age 60 (yes, this is the scenario I incorporated in my fanfic, "Some Sweet Life").

I don't believe Ennis would eat his 30.06, but I suppose it's possible to see the smoking and drinking as almost a "passive" form of suicide.

My thoughts exactly. Ennis to me is someone who doesn´t take many decisions but rather let things happen to him. It was Jack who took the initiative up on Brokeback and it was Jack who sent the postcard. I don´t think he would have killed himself, but simply let life pass him by. Every day pretty much the same. Hard work, drinking and smoking in front of the television, sleep. And like Jeff points out - his lifestyle doesn´t suggest that Ennis would have had a very long life. For some reason, I´ve always envisioned Ennis riding out on his horse one day and having a fatal heart attack midstride.