Author Topic: Sword and Sandal movie updates  (Read 30879 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Sword and Sandal movie updates
« on: July 08, 2009, 01:15:20 am »
For those of you out there who like sword and sandal movies, I was perusing one of my fav author's website and he had a lot of interesting upcoming movies listed in his updates:

Early Christian terrorism?

The most anticipated Ancient World movie of 2009: "Agora", from director Alejandro Amenábar (The Others; The Sea Inside) starring Rachel Weitz as Hypatia, the scientist-scholar who ran afoul of the Christians in Alexandria in 415 A.D. It’s said to be the most expensive Spanish production ever, with an extraordinary recreation of ancient Alexandria (a city seldom depicted in movies). US release date: December 18

Kids and McKidd

Logan Lerman will play the title role in "Percy Jackson", based on the wildly popular Young Adult series of fantasy novels by Rick Riordan about a modern-day teenager who discovers he’s not just Percy, but Perseus, son of Poseidon (Kevin McKidd); cosmic adventures ensue. Uma Thurman plays Medusa, Sean Bean is Zeus, and Pierce Brosnan plays the centaur Chiron. Chris Columbus is directing. Look for release in 2010

New Spartacus

Sam Raimi (creator of TV’s Hercules and Xena) is co-producing "Spartacus: Blood and Sand", a 13-hour series to debut on Starz in 2010. Lucy Lawless will play the proprietor of a gladiator camp, while Australian actor Andy Whitfield will be Spartacus. From the press release: “Spartacus will take the story of the rebellious warrior-slave and re-imagine it for a generation of TV viewers raised on graphic novels and cutting-edge production technology....set in the brutal world of gladiators [with] no shortage of intense action and vivid, R-rated storytelling.”

New Ben-Hur

David Wyler, son of director William Wyler (who won an Oscar for Ben-Hur in 1959), is producing a new version of "Ben-Hur" as a $30 million TV miniseries. Steven Shill (of The Tudors, Rome, and Deadwood) will direct from a script by Alan Sharp (Rob Roy).

The women

Scarlett Johansson is set to star in "Amazon", the tale of a gladiatrix who exacts vengeance on the army that destroyed her homeland, circa 200 B.C. Screenplay is by the team of Dirk Blackman and Howard McCain, scripters for Underworld: Rise of the Lycans and the upcoming new Conan epic.

Alexander the Straight, a musical

Alexander the Great goes Bollywood in "Royal Utsav". Thanks to reincarnation, the Greek conqueror finally realizes his dream of reaching India, where he meets a beautiful queen and inspires the author of the Kama Sutra. Expect singing, dancing, and lots of (strictly heterosexual) romance. Oliver Stone, eat your heart out!

HBO's Rome

Will there be a movie version of the TV series Rome? Bruno Heller says he would like to produce a theatrical wrap-up to his prematurely canceled HBO drama. “There is talk of doing a movie version. It’s moving along. It’s not there until it is there. I would love to round that show off.”

Catherine Zeta as Cleo - a musical

Catherine Zeta-Jones may play Cleopatra and Hugh Jackman may play Antony in "Cleo", a $30 million 3-D musical to be directed by Steven Soderbergh. Although the story has been oft-filmed (most famously with the 1963 Cleopatra starring Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton), this Cleo would be Hollywood’s first musical based on the star-crossed lovers. But don’t expect an Ancient World feast for the senses; the story will be transposed to 1920s America

Alexander the Straight, Part Deux

"Young Alexander the Great", about the conqueror’s teenaged years (think “Alexander 90210”) stars Sam Heughan as Alexander and Paul Telfer (of Hercules and Spartacus) as Hephaestion.

First Brad Pitt massacres "Troy", now he's set to destroy "The Odyssey"

Variety reports: “After turning Homer’s epic poem The Iliad into the 2004 film Troy, Warner Bros. and Brad Pitt are teaming with director George Miller to adapt the Greek poet’s other masterwork, The Odyssey. Their intention is to transfer the tale to a futuristic setting in outer space.” 

Hadrian the Straight?  I hope not

John Boorman will film Marguerite Yourcenar’s classic novel "Memoirs of Hadrian". The buzz: 007 star Daniel Craig as Hadrian. Who will play Antinous, the young lover deified by the emperor after drowning in the Nile? For the ultimate in Antinous worship, visit The Sacred Antinous.

Graphic novels

Director Peter Berg (Hancock) is set to make a new movie version of "Hercules", based on the graphic novel Hercules: The Thracian War

Indy

Coming down the chimney this year? "Nicholas of Myra" is an independent feature about the original St. Nick. No, Virginia, not Santa Claus, but his ancient prototype who attended the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., shortly after Constantine the Great made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire.


For additional info, pics and links here's the website
http://stevensaylor.com/StevensBookshopDVDNewMovies.html

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 08:34:02 am »
Hmmm.... I'd never thought I'd see Hypatia portrayed in film. A highly intelligent and scolarly woman, teacher to men, torn to pieces by a Christian mob bent on getting the point across that women should keep themselves in silence at home according to the word of Paul? Not modern-day film material in this day and age of kow-towing respectfully to religious believers no matter what. But of course, it remains to be seen exactly how she's portrayed. Perhaps she'll be depicted as a wanton blasphemer who had it coming.  :-\

The Scarlett Johanson "Amazon" thing sounds more like a fanboy's wet dream than an actual film...it isn't listed under her name at ImbD, but of course may be in the pipeline even so.

Whether or not all or some of these are just rumours or even jokes (I mean, Zeta-Jones in Cleopatra the musical!?!) this was an interesting read. Not that I'm generally into sword and sandal movies. But stuff based on mythology and ancient history can be very good and exciting. Unless it's "Troy". Ugh what a travesty in most respects, though the continual consolation prize of endless vistas of good-looking, toned and barely-clothed men somehow made it watchable... :P

Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 10:12:36 am »

Hadrian the Straight?  I hope not

John Boorman will film Marguerite Yourcenar’s classic novel "Memoirs of Hadrian". The buzz: 007 star Daniel Craig as Hadrian. Who will play Antinous, the young lover deified by the emperor after drowning in the Nile? For the ultimate in Antinous worship, visit The Sacred Antinous.


Daniel Craig as Hadrian? In steamy sex love scenes with a modern-day Antinous look-alike? Vah-Vah-Voom!!! Be still my beating heart! Can't wait! If they get an actor just half as gorgeous as the real Antinous, this'll be one heck of a hot-hot-hot movie! Phew, I'm feeling all hot and bothered just thinking about it!


The Emperor Hadrian's Lover, Antinous

Click on this link to visit the web site of The Temple of Antinous:

http://www.antinopolis.org/index.html


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Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 10:28:20 am »
Found this clip on YouTube re a BBC documentary about Hadrian and Antinous:

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Offline Kd5000

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 10:39:51 am »
Wow, thanks for posting all that information. I've read some of Saylor's books and I really enjoyed Roma: The Novel of Ancient Rome .  I didn't know he had a website and interesting one at that.  Thanks for that link.

I was aware of the movie version of MEMORIES OF HADRIAN as I was curious to see what John Boorman is doing of late.  Nobody on IMDB's msg board for "Memories of Hadrian" is really discussing the sexual angle of the film. Someone posted it would be great for Zach Efron to play Antinous, but others pointed out he'd turn down the role because of his Disney image. ;)

I had read that  AGORA was having problems finding a distributor in the USA. Hope they get one.  Are the studios worried about a religious group boycott?? I think not.

Some of those other projects sound very dicey.  I wish HBO would ad another season of ROME instead of just a two hour movie. I guess it was an expensive series.   Evidently ROME isn't very popular in Italy as they don't like these English lads playing their Italian ancestors.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 04:12:18 pm »
Mikaela,

I agree, many of the potential shows are kinda iffy IMO.  Stuff like Scarlett Johannsen as a gladiatrix and Lucy Lawless as the owner of a gladiator school are pure fanboy fantasy movies where neither woman is likely to wear much.


Kerry,

Yes, the thought of Daniel Craig as Hadrian and some pretty boy toy as Antinous in a hot sexy clench makes me all wiggly as well.   ;D

Wow, thanks for posting all that information. I've read some of Saylor's books and I really enjoyed Roma: The Novel of Ancient Rome.  I didn't know he had a website and interesting one at that.  Thanks for that link.

I was aware of the movie version of MEMORIES OF HADRIAN as I was curious to see what John Boorman is doing of late.  Nobody on IMDB's msg board for "Memories of Hadrian" is really discussing the sexual angle of the film. Someone posted it would be great for Zach Efron to play Antinous, but others pointed out he'd turn down the role because of his Disney image.

Funny thing is that I'm reading the book Long Way Down, the story of the charity motorcycle trip from Scotland to South Africa done by Ewan McGregor and his friend Charley Boorman, and in the book, Charley mentioned calling his dad (John Boorman) to check in and fill him in on the trip so far and his father was in a good mood because he'd gotten the OK for his movie about Hadrian.  It didn't really click until I read this blurb.

Zac Efron would be awesome in the part, IMO, since he basically looks like a young Jared Leto - who played Hephaestion to Colin Farrell's Alexander.  He's done with Disney, isn't he?

Quote
I had read that  AGORA was having problems finding a distributor in the USA. Hope they get one.  Are the studios worried about a religious group boycott?? I think not.

I would hope not.  I'm like Mikaela, I never thought they'd make a movie about her since what happened makes early Christians - including one who is now a saint - look extremely bad.

But thankfully, truth will out.

Quote
Some of those other projects sound very dicey.  I wish HBO would ad another season of ROME instead of just a two hour movie. I guess it was an expensive series.   Evidently ROME isn't very popular in Italy as they don't like these English lads playing their Italian ancestors. [/color]

Really?  I heard that those in Rome loved the series ROME because not only was it filmed there, the extras were played by Romans and the majority of the minor roles were played by Italian actors and even the craftsmen for some of the props were from Italy.  Yeah, I'd love another season of ROME as well, but it was a very expensive series.  The ratings for it were always better than for HBO's series ENTOURAGE, but ENTOURAGE had a much cheaper overhead since it's filmed in modern times in L.A. so when the time came to axe a series, HBO went with ROME sadly.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 04:22:00 pm »
Found this clip on YouTube re a BBC documentary about Hadrian and Antinous:


Thanks for the link.  I've read up on them and I own the book Beloved and God, the story of Hadrian and Antinous and while spotty on actual facts, since there is not much known about their lives together, it does go into various theories about what happened to Antinous.

i.e. was he accidentally drowned or was it suicide or was he murdered?

and the reasoning behind each theory.  The book had lots of interesting reading about the orgiastic religion that was the worship of Antinous - why can't religion be like that anymore?  ;) and how devoted the faithful were to his worship.  The book mentioned recovery of statues of Antinous that had been carefully buried possibly lest they fall prey to marauders or even early Christian fanatics, and cemetery remains of young men or boys buried with decals of Antinous the god asking for his blessing.  It was really sweet and eye-opening.

I felt for Hadrian's wife Sabina though.  From all reports, Antinous got along with her alright.  I saw a bust of Sabina at the Louvre and it's one of the photos I regret not taking because she was drop dead gorgeous if that bust of her is anything to go by.  I posed by and had many pictures taken of me next to statues of Antinous though.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 02:10:40 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 05:25:50 pm »
Daniel Craig as Hadrian? In steamy sex love scenes with a modern-day Antinous look-alike? Vah-Vah-Voom!!! Be still my beating heart! Can't wait! If they get an actor just half as gorgeous as the real Antinous, this'll be one heck of a hot-hot-hot movie! Phew, I'm feeling all hot and bothered just thinking about it!


Erm.... I hate to be a wet blanket, but..... I wouldn't get my hopes up till I saw the finished product.

Having seen what was left of the Achilles/Patrochlos relationship in "Troy", and the Alexander/Hephaestion and Alexander/Bagoas relationships in "Alexander", I entirely doubt Hollywood when it comes to portraying historical or mythical m/m relationships. They mostly haven't got the guts. At all.

Now the "sword and sandal movie I'd like to see made, would be someone filming "The Persian Boy", and actually staying true to the source material. Except I wouldn't mind the film being a tad more explicit, since Mary Renault's novel very maddeningly skirts around the sex oh-so-politely and with eyes very firmly closed. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit. Or two.  :P

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 05:41:05 pm »
Having seen what was left of the Achilles/Patrochlos relationship in "Troy", and the Alexander/Hephaestion and Alexander/Bagoas relationships in "Alexander", I entirely doubt Hollywood when it comes to portraying historical or mythical m/m relationships. They mostly haven't got the guts. At all.

Heh, excellent point.  Yeah, they'd probably make Antinous, Hadrian's cousin or the gods forbid, his son.

Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 02:00:09 am »
Thanks for the link.  I own the book Hadrian and Antinous I think it's called and while spotty on actual facts, since there is not much known about their lives together, it does go into various theories about what happened to Antinous.

i.e. was he accidentally drowned or was it suicide or was he murdered?


Some commentators believe Antinous may have ritually sacrificed himself by jumping into the Nile. Couple of reasons. Though he was born in what is modern-day Turkey, he was of Greek heritage and it is presumed he was raised in the Greek manner re the erastes/eromenos practice. This was not the Roman tradition, however, and even though Hadrian was a lover of Greek culture, his Court was not necessarily so. Hadrian and Antinous were a classic erastes/eromenos couple. Alas, however, where even the fundamentalist Romans of the day may have been prepared to turn a blind eye to this when Antinous was young, they were not prepared to do so when he became a man. And by all accounts, he grew into a fine figure of a young man, very athletic and masculine in his manner. He was certainly no mincing, perfumed, giggling court catamite. Whilst accompanying Hadrian on his inspection of Egypt, some believe that Antinous took the opportunity to sacrifice himself in the Nile (i) to save Hadrian the shame of having an adult male lover and (ii) because he knew that those who died within Hapy's dark embrace would be declared immortal and could possibly be deified. As it was, the latter occurred, thanks to Hadrian, though not formally. It was because of the depth of Hadrian's mourning for Antinous that so many fine statues of Antinous have come down to us. I recently read somewhere that his is one of the most recognized faces to survive the ancient world, mainly because of all the statues made of him and also because it was so late in the Roman Empire.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 02:21:23 am »

Now the "sword and sandal movie I'd like to see made, would be someone filming "The Persian Boy", and actually staying true to the source material. Except I wouldn't mind the film being a tad more explicit, since Mary Renault's novel very maddeningly skirts around the sex oh-so-politely and with eyes very firmly closed. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit. Or two.  :P


I love Mary Renault's romantic writing style. I wouldn't have it any other way. One of my favourite Renault quotes is from The Persian Boy. Bagoas is describing Alexander:

"He was seemly in sleep, his mouth closed, his breathing silent, his body fresh and sweet. The room smelled of sex and cedarwood, with the tang of salt from the sea. Autumn drew on, the night wind blew from the north. I drew the blanket over him; without waking, he moved to me in the great bed, seeking warmth."

Now I really am all hot and bothered. Quick, someone, hand me a fan!  ;)   :D

I'd love to see a movie of Mary Renault's The Last of the Wine; though, I dread to think what obnoxious Hollywood pretty boys would be cast to play Alexias and Lysis. Probably best left to my imagination.  :-\

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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 11:22:55 am »
*Hands Kerry a fan that - hopefully - would have been good enough for Alexander*



Your quote from the Persian Boy really had me yearning for a movie. *sigh*
I was so disappointed when Bagoas didn't even have one spoken line in "Alexander". It was sad to realize that Oliver Stone's fiasco probably killed anyone's possibility of getting financing for making a *decent* Alaxander-themed movie in the foreseeable future.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 12:26:34 pm »
I was so disappointed when Bagoas didn't even have one spoken line in "Alexander". It was sad to realize that Oliver Stone's fiasco probably killed anyone's possibility of getting financing for making a *decent* Alaxander-themed movie in the foreseeable future.

The movie Alexander did well overseas.  It didn't do well in the U.S. for obvious reasons.  I very much liked the movie Alexander.  Saw it multiple times at the theater.  Own two DVD versions of it and many books about Alexander.  IMO, Oliver Stone did an excellent job of melding history with homages to Mary Renault while trying to reach a large audience.

Trouble is, sometimes audiences don't really want to see history.

I think even the greatest filmmaker would have had a problem doing an Alexander movie.  The man was a bisexual from a nation whose culture valued might over right.  He was the son of a famous warrior king who came to power after his father was assassinated by an ex-lover he'd tired of and cast away to be gang-raped.

It's hard to get a modern movie audience to sympathize or empathize with someone who loved his friends dearly, but had no problem taking them into war with him nor executing them later when he felt they'd betrayed him.  In this day and age, trying to tell the story of a man who liked to conquer - he wasn't defending his nation or people, he was simply expanding his power base - and had whole towns massacred if they didn't surrender to him, sold innocent people into slavery without a second thought is not someone a modern audience is going to want to identify with or understand.

I mean it can be done, but only to a degree.  For example, in the HBO series Rome, the producers/writers succeeded quite well in making the two main characters who were unrepentant rapists, murderers and slaveowners the sympathetic heroes of the series.  However they did this by keeping the POV strictly on their side, by keeping them as small cogs in a bigger machine, by only hinting at some of the more heinous acts they committed and by keeping them strictly heterosexual and loyal family people (kinda like when they make movies about mobsters).

Alexander can't really be manipulated this way and stay true to history.  He was in charge.  He was completely aware of what he was doing.  He is just not a sympathetic character.  And granted, one doesn't have to make movies only about people who are warm and fuzzy, filmmakers still want to reach an audience.  So if you remove audiences who only want a popcorn, modern morals Hollywood-ized action adventure movie, who are you left with?  A limited audience for a movie about a real Alexander, and even fanboys who fancy themselves anarchists and would enjoy a character who believes in and enforces a might-is-right policy are sometimes the worst kinds of homophobes and would not take to the other aspects of the historical man.

How big is that remaining audience now?

I just don't think it's possible to make a good but true movie about Alexander that's going to find a wide audience.

Look at the examples on my original post.  I titled them both "Alexander the Straight" because both the Bollywood version and the teenage series have a fictional female character as a love interest for Alexander.  The makers of these productions aren't interested in reality or history, they're interested in reaching a bigger audience. 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 02:14:50 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 01:03:26 pm »
Oh my, Del, you actually liked Alexander?

When I went to see it, I'd read numerous reviews so I knew what others thought (not good). I fully expected to defy them - I so much *wanted* to like it! But I had to agree it was bad. Everything from the strange way the narrative was cut together, the incomprehensible never-ending battle scenes, the boring voice-overs, Colin Farrel's horrific wig, the way they didn't *really* dare show that Hephaisteon and Alexander were lovers, ancient titles and place names without any explanations, the ludicrous Alexander/Roxane fighting/mating sequence and so forth and so on... it just was disappointing. Unengaging. And most of all, I didn't understand what Stone thought about the person Alexander. I didn't understand what he *wanted* with the film. What was he trying to convey? A portrait of someone who drove himself to the ends of the earth to conquer it all and *still* could not be satisfied with himself? That power always corrupts? A history lesson?

I think there *is* a market for an Alexander movie - but not one that tries to tackle Alexander's entire life and times. That is just too big of a tale, there would have to be so much exposition to explain the times and customs... it would all have to be incredibly rushed....there are all the objections you mention.
So IMO it would have to be either the life story of someone more on the fringes of the big events (cough*Bagoas*cough), or it would have to deal with one or a few events - or one year/one place/one culture and Alexander's related impact. Ie. limit the extent, focus the subject matter, let us meet people to identify with. Show Alexander indirectly thought he eyes of others.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 01:19:14 pm »

Some commentators believe Antinous may have ritually sacrificed himself by jumping into the Nile. Couple of reasons. Though he was born in what is modern-day Turkey, he was of Greek heritage and it is presumed he was raised in the Greek manner re the erastes/eromenos practice. This was not the Roman tradition, however, and even though Hadrian was a lover of Greek culture, his Court was not necessarily so. Hadrian and Antinous were a classic erastes/eromenos couple. Alas, however, where even the fundamentalist Romans of the day may have been prepared to turn a blind eye to this when Antinous was young, they were not prepared to do so when he became a man. And by all accounts, he grew into a fine figure of a young man, very athletic and masculine in his manner. He was certainly no mincing, perfumed, giggling court catamite. Whilst accompanying Hadrian on his inspection of Egypt, some believe that Antinous took the opportunity to sacrifice himself in the Nile (i) to save Hadrian the shame of having an adult male lover and (ii) because he knew that those who died within Hapy's dark embrace would be declared immortal and could possibly be deified. As it was, the latter occurred, thanks to Hadrian, though not formally. It was because of the depth of Hadrian's mourning for Antinous that so many fine statues of Antinous have come down to us. I recently read somewhere that his is one of the most recognized faces to survive the ancient world, mainly because of all the statues made of him and also because it was so late in the Roman Empire.


One author I read on their relationship also brought up the possible sacrifice by Antinous, but he doesn't put much credence in it for the following reasons:

There remains the fundamental objection to the sacrificial theory...if Antinous had devoted himself to death for Hadrian, why not did the latter say so, indeed trumpet to the world such a sublime abnegation?...does the absence of explicit accounts [of his death] from the period when the cult was established, 130-38 mean there was no such sacrifice and it was a later invention...?

If Antinous had died to save the Emperor from the onset of lethal sickness or from...dangers, would Hadrian have wished news of such...broadcast around his Empire?  Would someone so independent and proud, recently proclaimed as almighty and bountiful Zeus incarnate, have wished to confess in public and perpetuity his own impotence in the face of impeding illness or death?  Would the self-contained autocrat Hadrian...have wished his subjects to know that the future of his reign and stability of the Empire itself had thus depended on the whim of a mere youth?  Would Hadrian, who boasted of his independence [from] astrologers, have desired the world to hear that his fate had been dictated by the gibberings of Egyptian magicians? 

However much the sacrifice glorified Antinous, it belittled Hadrian.  It exposed his physical vulnerability the bankruptcy of his divine pretensions, his practical impotence in the face of disaster...If Hadrian were, as the magicians predicted, to die or be overwhelmed by disasters, would not that be the end of Antinous, too?  If the Emperor survived, was there much of a future for Antinous to look forward to anyway?


The author also goes on to speculate on possible suicide motives.  Antinous was getting older, growing hair, maturing and Hadrian basically liked smooth twinks.  There was a new member of the royal entourage to whom Hadrian was giving attention, a person whose education and aristocratic pedigree Antinous, a simple youth from Asia Minor, could not compete with.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 10:45:42 pm by delalluvia »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 01:41:08 pm »
Oh my, Del, you actually liked Alexander?

Loved it.

Quote
When I went to see it, I'd read numerous reviews so I knew what others thought (not good). I fully expected to defy them - I so much *wanted* to like it! But I had to agree it was bad. Everything from the strange way the narrative was cut together, the incomprehensible never-ending battle scenes

I remember reading this as a criticism as well.  The movie was nearly 3 hours long.  How many battle scenes were there? 

2.  Only 2.

As for incomprehensible, well, Oliver Stone has seen and experienced real combat.  You're not going to get a clear, clean-cut, easy to figure out, Game-boy battle scene out of him.

Quote
the boring voice-overs

Which were necessary to explain the massive jumps in time.  Like you said in your post, the story of Alexander is too big.

Quote
ancient titles and place names without any explanations

Who is going to stop and explain them?  You already don't like the voice-over.  The homosexuality was vaguely hinted at to be sure, a major failing IMO as well. 

Quote
the ludicrous Alexander/Roxane fighting/mating sequence

I thought the sex scene was funny as well, but it was meant to show Alexander's subconscious Oedipus complex.  Roxanne resembles his mother.

Quote
And most of all, I didn't understand what Stone thought about the person Alexander.

Really?  I thought it was clear.  So clear he was all but hitting the audience over the head with it.  He thought Alexander had such an abusive childhood, torn between two ambitious competing vicious cut-throat parents (his beloved, protective mother telling him as a young boy that if you trust someone, they will turn on you, his idolized father threatening him with death then turning around in the next sentence and cheerfully saying how much he missed him) that he basically went out and conquered to get away from it.  IOW he was running.

Quote
I didn't understand what he *wanted* with the film. What was he trying to convey?

It was a character study of one man done against a massive world-stage backdrop.

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So IMO it would have to be either the life story of someone more on the fringes of the big events (cough*Bagoas*cough)

Bagoas was a sheltered fucktoy.  IMO he wouldn't have had the brains to know what was going on.  For example, in The Persian Boy at the end of the book, Alexander is parading his new generation of youthful soldiers in the main stadia of Babylon for games.  They are a racial mixture of Eastern troops trained in Western fashion, but dedicated in the Eastern fashion only to Alexander.  This is a huge socio-political act by Alexander with far-reaching and possibly deadly ramifications.  How does Bagoas react?  He thinks the boys look very pretty.  ::)  I would choose someone more like one of Alexander's generals or one of Alexander's youthful lieutenants.  Someone a little bit more on the ball.

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Show Alexander indirectly thought he eyes of others.

But then you're not really showing who the moviemaker thinks Alexander is.  You're getting it more like 3rd hand knowledge.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 02:38:13 pm »
Well, obviously all this is based on individual perception and preferences - likes/dislikes -  and so.... we won't agree on this one. I'm sorry. It must be irritating to like a film so much and have everyone else going on about how bad it was.  :-\

(I've seen it twice - one time on TV, to convince myself it was better than I remembered from the cinema. But it wasn't.)

A couple of comments anyhow, because it's an interesting topic IMO!

I remember reading this as a criticism as well.  The movie was nearly 3 hours long.  How many battle scenes were there? 

2.  Only 2.

As for incomprehensible, well, Oliver Stone has seen and experienced real combat.  You're not going to get a clear, clean-cut, easy to figure out, Game-boy battle scene out of him.

Yes, there were only 2, but boy - did they feel never-ending! Especially the first one. I felt the  movie beat me over the head with the milling confusion of battle and after I had gotten that, just continued doing it. It was boring. Whatever battles are, I doubt they are boring, so I'd say Stone failed to get his points across to me. 

Battles may be confusing as hell, but filmmakers have an obligation to make the confusion - and the battle as such - serve a point in the narrative. To make it relevant to Alexander's particular story. This IMO did a poor job of that. I just think they went overboard in special effects, and decided once they'd gone to all the trouble (and cost!!) that the battle scenes were staying in, whether or not they really had much of a structure and point to them.

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Which were necessary to explain the massive jumps in time.  Like you said in your post, the story of Alexander is too big.
Yes it surely is. I remember thinking at the time through that they used voice-overs where there should have been real scenes, and scenes where there could have used voice-overs. But it's too long since I saw the film and I can't give you examples now.

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Who is going to stop and explain them?  You already don't like the voice-over. 
I don't claim to be a film-maker, I only say what worked and din't work for me. They used titles such as "Satrap", and place names such as "Sogdia, Baktria", and didn't explain what and where that is. Maybe I should have remembered that, but I didn't. And IMO it detracted from the tale. I watched the film with subtitles - I sat there wishing the translator would have taken the time to check where Sogdia was and included in in an aside in the subtitles. But nope.

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The homosexuality was vaguely hinted at to be sure, a major failing IMO as well. 


I bet Colin Farrell and Jared Leto would have found it more realistic and just as easy to deal with if their characters had actually made out or gone to bed at least once, rather than those deep meaningful kohl-rimmed loooong looks.

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I thought the sex scene was funny as well, but it was meant to show Alexander's subconscious Oedipus complex.  Roxanne resembles his mother.
OK. I didn't get that. But it makes sense. The mating scene was embarrassing, IMO. But I admit I got distracted by the presence of Angelina Jolie, and that may have obscured the similarities between her and Roxane. 

From other readings about Alexander I got the impression that everyone was nagging him so much to marry and produce an heir, he finally married Roxane as a kind of warning as much as anything - "back off me, or you may get what you wished for but you'll regret you did wish for it." That may have coloured my impression of the scene. Roxane is an interesting character BTW.

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Really?  I thought it was clear.  So clear he was all but hitting the audience over the head with it.  He thought Alexander had such an abusive childhood, torn between two ambitious competing vicious cut-throat parents (his mother telling him as a young boy that if you trust someone, they will turn on you, his father threatening him with death then turning around in the next sentence and cheerfully saying how much he missed him) that he basically went out and conquered to get away from it.
That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe that's why I didn't get it. I thought it was about him trying to conquer the world to prove to himself and others that he was better than those dreadful parents had made him feel, but that he really always was just "running from himself" and his demons (courtesy of his parents, sure enough), and there was never far enough places to conquer to get away from that and to prove himself - to himself. That he conquered land to the ends of the known world and beyond and still could not reach a place of confidence and inner calm. But I thought it was poorly and haphazardly communicated. Though there were some scenes at the end, when Alexander starts looking driven and almost haunted, that almost broke through to me and made me "feel" him.

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Bagoas, IMO, was a sheltered fucktoy. 
And this makes him disqualified as a film subject why?  ;)

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IMO he wouldn't have had the brains to know what was going on.  For example, in The Persian Boy at the end of the book, Alexander is parading his new generation of youthful soldiers in the main stadia of Babylon for games.  They are a racial mixture of Eastern troops trained in Western fashion, but dedicated in the Eastern fashion only to Alexander.  This is a huge socio-political act by Alexander with far-reaching and possibly deadly ramifications.  How does Bagoas react?  He thinks the boys look very pretty.  ::) 

Hmmm.... I seem to recall that Bagoas in TPB is quite aware of the ramifications of Alexander's mixing customs and promoting people from various cultures and places, trying to create one bigger whole. But at the same time, MR would have had to remember who he was, and what nationality he was and have him act accordingly -  and to not present him as all-knowing, all-understanding or non-biased.

What TPB brings to the table is a human touch, someone looking at Alexander and loving him, not necessarily seeing the military strategies and conquering plans and all that, but just the extremely charismatic person and the mesmerizing and inspiring personality. And when all is said and done, that has to be important aspects of who Alexander was and how he achieved what he did. So I don't think that's a bad angle, though of course not the only possible one.

BUT I fully agree that a film portraying any one person on the fringes of Alexander's retinue would have to not look only through that one person's eye, but cast the net a little wider. That would be the same no matter which person we're talking about, I think. Generals, or Hephaistion included.

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I would choose someone more like one of Alexander's generals or one of Alexander's youthful lieutenants.  Someone a little bit more on the ball.
I agree that would work very well, too.

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But then you're not really showing who the moviemaker thinks Alexander is.  You're getting it more like 3rd hand knowledge.
Yes - but the moviemaker could still use that to get across much about how Alexander and his conquests impacted persons and peoples, and glimpses of Alexander though his words, deeds, etc. And that can convey much. But it is a stopgap measure. The full story would fill a whole ocean and there's only a pool available!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 05:14:10 pm by Mikaela »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 05:46:36 pm »
Well, obviously all this is based on individual perception and preferences - likes/dislikes -  and so.... we won't agree on this one. I'm sorry. It must be irritating to like a film so much and have everyone else going on about how bad it was.  :-\

(I've seen it twice - one time on TV, to convince myself it was better than I remembered from the cinema. But it wasn't.)


Heh, I never convince anyone how good it is who doesn't like it, but I keep trying.  ;D

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Yes, there were only 2, but boy - did they feel never-ending! Especially the first one. I felt the  movie beat me over the head with the milling confusion of battle and after I had gotten that, just continued doing it. It was boring. Whatever battles are, I doubt they are boring, so I'd say Stone failed to get his points across to me.

Movies are so subjective.  You thought them boring, I was thrilled and actually get goosebumps every time I watch them.  Yeah, Oliver is pretty adamant about showing the confusion of battle, he's not going to clean them up or make them easier for anyone.   What would be the point of that?

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Battles may be confusing as hell, but filmmakers have an obligation to make the confusion - and the battle as such - serve a point in the narrative. To make it relevant to Alexander's particular story. This IMO did a poor job of that. I just think they went overboard in special effects, and decided once they'd gone to all the trouble (and cost!!) that the battle scenes were staying in, whether or not they really had much of a structure and point to them.

Again, movies are so subjective, I thought the battles made Oliver's points about Alexander's life quite clearly and served extremely well as punctuation points to Alexander's journey.  And I have several historical books about Alexander and the first battle is pretty much what historians believe actually happened, and the battle is called strategic genius on Alexander's part, so it's pretty funny that you think the battle didn't have much structure. 

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I don't claim to be a film-maker, I only say what worked and din't work for me. They used titles such as "Satrap", and place names such as "Sogdia, Baktria", and didn't explain what and where that is. Maybe I should have remembered that, but I didn't. And IMO it detracted from the tale. I watched the film with subtitles - I sat there wishing the translator would have taken the time to check where Sogdia was and included in in an aside in the subtitles. But nope.

Hmmm, well, the narrator - shown as an old man, Anthony Hopkins in the film, - actually had a map on the wall.  I'm no expert in geography myself, but I think most people know that Alexander conquered the Persian empire and occupied Babylon - which most everyone knows was in Iraq - and that he eventually reached India.  So I think it's just a matter of deductive reasoning and knowing what is between Iraq and and India to give you some sort of reference point to imagine where Sogdia, Baktria might have been.
 
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I bet Colin Farrell and Jared Leto would have found it more realistic and just as easy to deal with if their characters had actually made out or gone to bed at least once, rather than those deep meaningful kohl-rimmed loooong looks.

But they were such luscious, deep, meaningful, longing looks.  ;D
 
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OK. I didn't get that. But it makes sense. The mating scene was embarrassing, IMO. But I admit I got distracted by the presence of Angelina Jolie, and that may have obscured the similarities between her and Roxane.

The similarities were astounding and there were tattooed snakes all over Roxanne's body.  She was a vicious thing and so was Alexander's mother.  I loved Angelina's portrayal of Olympias.  She was soooooooo scary.  She came across as the type of mother who would make even the greatest conqueror in history run for the hills. 
 
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I thought it was about him trying to conquer the world to prove to himself and others that he was better than those dreadful parents had made him feel, but that he really always was just "running from himself" and his demons (courtesy of his parents, sure enough), and there was never far enough places to conquer to get away from that and to prove himself - to himself.

You weren't wrong.  It was that too.  Throughout the movie, all Alexander hears is how good his father was and how his father would be proud and his father is watching over him and blah blah blah until Alexander is ready to kill someone.  Here he is the greatest conqueror the known world has ever seen and all anyone can do is remind him of his father.  So when he gets fed up and finally toots his own horn, just to have his father thrown in his face yet again, he actually does kill someone.

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What TPB brings to the table is a human touch, someone looking at Alexander and loving him, not necessarily seeing the military strategies and conquering plans and all that, but just the extremely charismatic person and the mesmerizing and inspiring personality. And when all is said and done, that has to be important aspects of who Alexander was and how he achieved what he did. So I don't think that's a bad angle, though of course not the only possible one.


Well, I've been thinking about it, and Alexander has already been seen from the fringe in books with varying degrees of success.

From Bagoas' POV, which I think misses the important parts of Alexanders socio-political strategy - and - I realized Pressfield has already done this in his Alexander books - from the POV of a young lieutenant in Alexander's army, which also fails since obviously Alexander is not going to expose or confide anything really personal to an underling in his army, so what we basically need is a movie from Hephaestion's POV.

He had been with Alexander since childhood and no one knew him better.  Not only was he Alexander's lover and spouse-substitute, but a general in his army and an important - 2nd only to Alexander - vizier in his empire's government so he will have seen it all, except of course for Alexander going downhill after his death.  But that's easily portrayed from an outside character since we'll have already seen what had gone on within Alexander's head and heart from he who was most important to the man.


Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 08:37:23 pm »
I too love the movie "Alexander." I won't rattle on about why, but suffice to say that I would probably think anything about Alexander to be worthwhile, for the simple reason that it is about Alexander.

IMHO Alexander could do no wrong (though he perhaps came close when he burned Persepolis). If I had lived in Alexander's day, I feel sure I would have been one of those men who would have literally followed him to the ends of the earth, without question.

I would like to see a more intimate movie made about Alexander. Something more like "a day in the life of . . . " from the perspective of someone within his inner circle.

Re Antinous, I too do not necessarily agree with the self-sacrifice hypothesis. I only raised it because I wanted to clarify that a "suicide" (as originally stated) is not necessarily the same as a ritualistic self-sacrifice.

And I would never agree that Hadrian had moved on to another, younger eromenos ("twink"). As with Alexander following the death of his beloved Hephaestion, Hadrian went into deep mourning following the death of Antinous. Certainly, that's not denying that both Alexander and Hadrian had other lovers, both male and female. They were, after all, men of their time. Which is not of our time. It is always a fatal flaw to judge any personage from antiquity by our own stilted Judaeo-Christian standards.


 
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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 09:17:48 pm »
They were, after all, men of their time. Which is not of our time. It is always a fatal flaw to judge any personage from antiquity by our own stilted Judaeo-Christian standards.

I agree completely, Kerry! This discussion is making me want to get out my Alexander DVD and watch it again!
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2009, 09:58:09 pm »
And I have several historical books about Alexander and the first battle is pretty much what historians believe actually happened, and the battle is called strategic genius on Alexander's part, so it's pretty funny that you think the battle didn't have much structure. 

Oh, I'm sure the battle itself was as structured as all that - but the lengthy scenes in the movie didn't communicate that to me. At all. I'm beginning to feel foolish about that - you and Kerry are a convincing couple - but then I remember the opinions of all the reviewers and I take comfort in not being alone, at last.

I would hazard the opinion that possessing relatively detailed knowledge of Alexander's travels and conquests, the main men around him, and the important historical events, made the film much more interesting and understandable. Both you and Kerry seem to have considerable historic knowledge of the man and his times.

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Hmmm, well, the narrator - shown as an old man, Anthony Hopkins in the film, - actually had a map on the wall.  I'm no expert in geography myself, but I think most people know that Alexander conquered the Persian empire and occupied Babylon - which most everyone knows was in Iraq - and that he eventually reached India.  So I think it's just a matter of deductive reasoning and knowing what is between Iraq and and India to give you some sort of reference point to imagine where Sogdia, Baktria might have been.
Well, I did deduct they were't in the Americas.  ;D The trouble with Alexander is that he conquered such an immense area that any named district or country could be on the plains of Iraq, the deserts of Arabia, or the mountains of Afghanistan. And if I remember correctly, Roxane herself was a Sogdian and that was......near Afghanistan? That country always spells trouble.

But I do think it's the responsibility of a filmmaker of movies like this to make it clearer to the movie's general audience what's going on and where it's going on. I know a sizeable percentage of Americans are unable to place current-day Iraq on a map of the world. Unfortunately I do think you are too optimistic in assuming most people know which areas Alexander conquered, where that was and even that Babylon=Iraq.
 
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The similarities were astounding and there were tattooed snakes all over Roxanne's body. 
She was a vicious thing and so was Alexander's mother.  I loved Angelina's portrayal of Olympias.  She was soooooooo scary.
 Hey, I didn't notice that about the tattooed snakes. As I said, I found the scene pretty embarrassing, I rather pitied the actors and that means I didn't look too closely at either of them. I think Rosario Dawson is a fine actress though. 
 

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From Bagoas' POV, which I think misses the important parts of Alexanders socio-political strategy - and - I realized Pressfield has already done this in his Alexander books - from the POV of a young lieutenant in Alexander's army, which also fails since obviously Alexander is not going to expose or confide anything really personal to an underling in his army, so what we basically need is a movie from Hephaestion's POV. He had been with Alexander since childhood and no one knew him better.  Not only was he Alexander's lover and spouse-substitute, but a general in his army and an important - 2nd only to Alexander - vizier in his empire's government so he will have seen it all, except of course for Alexander going downhill after his death.  But that's easily portrayed from an outside character since we'll have already seen what had gone on within Alexander's head and heart from he who was most important to the man.

Yes, I agree - that was one of the possibilities I suggested too (though I seemingly am unable to wrap my mind around the English version of Hephaestion's name and to spell it properly.) I'd like to see that.

But I'd like to see TPB filmed first and foremost. I have a huge, big soft spot for that book and its main characters together. And if I remember correctly, one of the few certain historical mentions of Bagoas is Alexander kissing him publicly after some competition, egged on by his men?  8)

Not that I think there will be another Alexander movie any time soon.  :-\

To end on a positive note on the movie, one thing I liked about the film, was the scene where Alexander enters Babylon as conqueror. That was awesome. A scene where all those special effects were well worth it!

Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2009, 09:12:12 am »
*Hands Kerry a fan that - hopefully - would have been good enough for Alexander*



Thank you for the exquisite fan, Mikaela. I love it.  :D
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2009, 09:39:12 am »
I too found the Alexander/Roxane sex scene somewhat embarrassing. but I think Oliver Stone was trying to portray  the widely held view in the Ancient Greek world, that men were for love and women were for making babies.  Sad but true. I think Stone beautifully portrayed the dignified, understated, deep love between Alexander and Hephaestion, as opposed to the coarse, raw sex experience by Alexander and Roxane.

The narrator of the film is Alexander's general, Ptolemy, played by Anthony Hopkins. Because Alexander did not name a successor (and his son was murdered), the empire was divided between his generals following his death. Ptolemy claimed Egypt and retired to Alexandria, where he became Pharaoh (Cleopatra is one of his descendants). I don't know the name of the actor who played the young Ptolemy in the film. He was the tall chap with the blond curly/frizzy hair.

Re the location of Alexander's world, unless I'm mistaken, a map of the empire appears full-screen, at the beginning of the film.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2009, 10:18:37 am »

I would hazard the opinion that possessing relatively detailed knowledge of Alexander's travels and conquests, the main men around him, and the important historical events, made the film much more interesting and understandable. Both you and Kerry seem to have considerable historic knowledge of the man and his times.
 

I recommend you read this wonderful book, Mikaela. I've read it many times over the years.



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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2009, 04:15:02 pm »
I too found the Alexander/Roxane sex scene somewhat embarrassing. but I think Oliver Stone was trying to portray  the widely held view in the Ancient Greek world, that men were for love and women were for making babies.  Sad but true. I think Stone beautifully portrayed the dignified, understated, deep love between Alexander and Hephaestion, as opposed to the coarse, raw sex experience by Alexander and Roxane.

"Widely held" views in the Greek world on this subject were widely held among men. Which means less than 50% can have held that view. One hopes women thought of themselves as slightly above mere moronic baby producing machines even if male-dominated society didn't allow them to reach their potential in so many ways.

I'm sorry, and this is not directed at you Kerry, but there are few things that annoy me more than modern historians and scolars discussing or presenting ancient Greece or Ancient Rome and speaking as if the male half of the population was the whole "real" population - and reducing women (50% of the population, except that so many women died in childbirth that AFAIK they represented less than 50% in adult age groups) to a small insignificant chapter of "special interest". Right next to that equally limited chapter about the condition for slaves. The Ancient Greek person wasn't by default a "he".

The ancient male attitude towards m/m relationships being far above m/f relationships is so misogynistic it makes me see red. It's a sad state of affairs that in societies where male homosexual relationships were approved of and even lauded this came only as the flip side of a coin that severely repressed women and denied them any sort of status, worth and equal terms.

Olympias seemed to consider herself more than a meek baby making machine, so one would think Alexander had some perspective on the matter, but no doubt he accepted and was a product of the prevailing attitude among upper class men and male philosophers at the time.

No wonder Roxane was spitting mad, being reduced to a "coarse raw sex experience".  So if that was what Stone was trying to convey, perhaps even that scene makes sense after all.


Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2009, 10:04:32 pm »

I'm sorry, and this is not directed at you Kerry


No offense taken, Mikaela. We are all entitled to our own point of view and I respect your opinion entirely. And I agree with you. Um, that is, I agree with you from the perspective of a modern person viewing the ancient world through the eyes of someone from the 21st century. Alas, however, that does not change the facts. For example, I'm also not particularly pleased about the fact that the great and noble Ancient Greeks also kept slaves. I wish that wasn't the case. Alas, however, they did keep slaves and no matter how much I may wish they hadn't kept slaves, the fact is that they did.  :'(
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2009, 01:17:34 am »
"Widely held" views in the Greek world on this subject were widely held among men. Which means less than 50% can have held that view. One hopes women thought of themselves as slightly above mere moronic baby producing machines even if male-dominated society didn't allow them to reach their potential in so many ways.

I'm sorry, and this is not directed at you Kerry, but there are few things that annoy me more than modern historians and scolars discussing or presenting ancient Greece or Ancient Rome and speaking as if the male half of the population was the whole "real" population - and reducing women (50% of the population, except that so many women died in childbirth that AFAIK they represented less than 50% in adult age groups) to a small insignificant chapter of "special interest". Right next to that equally limited chapter about the condition for slaves. The Ancient Greek person wasn't by default a "he".

The ancient male attitude towards m/m relationships being far above m/f relationships is so misogynistic it makes me see red. It's a sad state of affairs that in societies where male homosexual relationships were approved of and even lauded this came only as the flip side of a coin that severely repressed women and denied them any sort of status, worth and equal terms.

Olympias seemed to consider herself more than a meek baby making machine, so one would think Alexander had some perspective on the matter, but no doubt he accepted and was a product of the prevailing attitude among upper class men and male philosophers at the time.

No wonder Roxane was spitting mad, being reduced to a "coarse raw sex experience".  So if that was what Stone was trying to convey, perhaps even that scene makes sense after all.

I like your post Mikaela, but don't hold it against historians/scholars.  They can only use what information they have, and unfortunately what written records they do have from the ancient world were written by men.  There are next to no writings of women by women - a couple of poets here and there, and certainly nothing from slaves - so historians can only report the ancient world from the male perspective (though some ancient writers/philosophers do write of women speaking up with great spirit about the double-standards and other issues they faced either in fact or in literature, sometimes left-handedly but there you are).

Historians try to speculate on how the women and slaves probably might have acted and felt, but that's all they can do, speculate.

I'd like to think you're correct in that women such as Roxanne and Olympias come across time as harridans with bad reputations because yes, they considered themselves more than bargaining chips and baby machines and their inability to be anything other than a disposable commodity in the patriarchy they lived in manifested itself inwardly as ruthless behind-the-scenes scheming and outwardly as anger, contempt and hauteur.

And the men around them took that as "uppityness" and so wrote of them in the worst light possible.

Indeed, in the case of Alexander, in the end, both Roxanne and Olympias were fighting for the legitimate dynasty - Alexander's - against his former generals.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 03:03:18 am by delalluvia »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2009, 01:39:51 am »
And I would never agree that Hadrian had moved on to another, younger eromenos ("twink"). As with Alexander following the death of his beloved Hephaestion, Hadrian went into deep mourning following the death of Antinous

I never doubted their grief, but apparently - at least from this one author I'm currently re-reading - Hadrian was a bit of a drama queen when it came to love, loss and mourning.  I quote:

...with Antinous and [his new twink]...this most secretive of men and most cautious of Emperors declared and published his love in ways so extravagant  and unparalleled as to astonish...even in his poems and memorials to his favorite horses and dogs...and flamboyant mournings... there appears the same exaggerated need to express and embody his feelings in a manner bordering on histrionic.

As for Alexander and Hephaestion, well, I believe with my heart that Alexander's grief was real, but some historians say at least some of it was for show or dramatic effect - to solidify his belief - and that of his subjects - in himself as a hero in the legendary sense.  Alexander styled himself and believed himself descended from Achilles and per Homer: 

Achilles went wild in his grief over Patroclus' death
He lay on the body for days
He cut a lock of his hair in mourning
He presided over his beloved's funeral

Alexander went wild in his grief over Hephaestion's death
He lay on the body for some time
He hacked off all his hair and the tails of all the horses in Babylon, in mourning
He presided over a lavish funeral for his beloved

Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2009, 02:52:31 am »
I never doubted their grief, but apparently - at least from this one author I'm currently re-reading - Hadrian was a bit of a drama queen when it came to love, loss and mourning.  I quote:

...with Antinous and [his new twink]...this most secretive of men and most cautious of Emperors declared and published his love in ways so extravagant  and unparalleled as to astonish...even in his poems and memorials to his favorite horses and dogs...and flamboyant mournings... there appears the same exaggerated need to express and embody his feelings in a manner bordering on histrionic.

As for Alexander and Hephaestion, well, I believe with my heart that Alexander's grief was real, but some historians say at least some of it was for show or dramatic effect - to solidify his belief - and that of his subjects - in himself as a hero in the legendary sense.  Alexander styled himself and believed himself descended from Achilles and per Homer: 

Achilles went wild in his grief over Patroclus' death
He lay on the body for days
He cut a lock of his hair in mourning
He presided over his beloved's funeral

Alexander went wild in his grief over Hephaestion's death
He lay on the body for some time
He hacked off all his hair and the tails of all the horses in Babylon, in mourning
He presided over a lavish funeral for his beloved

Who is the author?

Which historians?
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2009, 03:01:26 am »
Who is the author?

Royston Lambert

Quote
Which historians?

Gag, you want me to go dig up every Alexander book and article and dissertation I've ever read?

Just a quickie search gives me Arrian and Plutarch mentioning the Illiad-style tributes.  I'd have to dig dieeper for the modern historians.

Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2009, 04:09:58 am »
Royston Lambert

Gag, you want me to go dig up every Alexander book and article and dissertation I've ever read?

Just a quickie search gives me Arrian and Plutarch mentioning the Illiad-style tributes.  I'd have to dig dieeper for the modern historians.

The Achilles-Patroclus / Alexander-Hephaestion connection is well known. It is a fact of history that Alexander and Hephaestion together sacrificed at the tombs of Achilles and Patroclus at Troy. They did so openly, before the entire army. There is no doubt that the message they were conveying was that they were the new Achilles and Patroclus, and should be accepted as such.

Gag, indeed! I don't know what came over me, requesting your sources. God knows, there are gazillions of them!  Forgive me. I'm somewhat protective of Alexander. Not that he needs my protection. Heaven forbid. (Wouldn't mind him being a little protective of me, however - haha!) There are extremely disparate views about Alexander in every aspect of his legend. I personally tend to veer towards the romantic. Just regarding his sexuality alone, there are mind-bogglingly opposite sites on the Internet, ranging from overt gay to overt straight. Some of them are very aggressive in their views. It's amazing that a man who has been dead for over two thousand years can still generate such passion. As for me, I believe Alexander was simply a man of his time.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2009, 03:06:27 pm »
The Achilles-Patroclus / Alexander-Hephaestion connection is well known. It is a fact of history that Alexander and Hephaestion together sacrificed at the tombs of Achilles and Patroclus at Troy. They did so openly, before the entire army. There is no doubt that the message they were conveying was that they were the new Achilles and Patroclus, and should be accepted as such.

Not exactly a fact.  I think the sacrifice at Troy is only mentioned by one historian and it's one of the iffy-er authors.  Regardless, no one is denying that they - or Alexander at least - viewed themselves as the new Achilles/Patroclus, what's at issue is how much that affected/influenced Alexander's level of mourning.  Apparently a lot.  How much was for show we'll never know.  But we could take his actions as a homage as well, so there's that.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 11:44:02 pm by delalluvia »

Offline magicmountain

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2009, 11:08:15 am »
Just came across this discussion

I too am a great fan of Alexander and can answer some questions which arose earlier.

Ancient Sogdia is today called Uzbekistan and Bactria is the ancient name for Afghanistan.

In fact there has been another movie recently made about Alexander called Young Alexander (2007)
which for some reason has not yet been released.

http://www.britfilms.com/britishfilms/catalogue/browse/?id=D5D44D521b20024A02YrM26CC37A

I think the best modern Alexander historian is Robin Lane Fox (who also rode in the cavalry in the film as the fee for his consulting role)

http://www.makingthemovie.info/2004/09/charge-of-smart-brigade.html

Fans of Mary Renault will love this site

http://community.livejournal.com/maryrenaultfics/

Also people are welcome to visit my Alexander blog over at dave cullen which I started in 2007. It covers all things Alexander from an historical, literary, geographical and amusing point of view plus many pics of Alexander and the places and people associated with him.

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=26820.0
Remember upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all. - Alexander the Great

Offline Meryl

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2009, 11:55:10 am »
Here's a link to a you-tube interview with Lucy Lawless about Spartacus:

http://www.daemonstv.com/2009/08/13/lucy-lawless-talks-about-spartacus-blood-and-sand/
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2009, 12:17:39 pm »
It's amazing that a man who has been dead for over two thousand years can still generate such passion.

Doesn't surprise me. Think of Jesus of Nazareth.  ;)  ;D  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline magicmountain

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2009, 11:17:34 pm »
Doesn't surprise me. Think of Jesus of Nazareth.  ;)  ;D  :laugh:

Yes - but Alexander's memory was not preserved and promoted by a worldwide religion and the efforts of  missionaries like St Paul.

His cult petered out in Alexandria a few hundred years after his death.

Like King Arthur, Alexander continues to live on in folk memory in a spontaneous way - there is something in his story which has an archetypal power to deeply affect people - much like the story of Jack and Ennis.
Remember upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all. - Alexander the Great

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2009, 02:29:10 am »
Yes - but Alexander's memory was not preserved and promoted by a worldwide religion and the efforts of  missionaries like St Paul.

His cult petered out in Alexandria a few hundred years after his death.

Like King Arthur, Alexander continues to live on in folk memory in a spontaneous way - there is something in his story which has an archetypal power to deeply affect people - much like the story of Jack and Ennis.

Agree, people have been talking about Cleopatra and Julius Caesar, heck even Spartacus for longer than Christ as well and not because of any religious zeal.