TOTW 05/09: Things that made you go "hunh?"

[LauraGigs]

This is a discussion about little things in the film that didn't sit quite right with folks.  In a loving way, what aspects of the film would you have done differently?  This can be about both bloopers (regarding props, editing, etc.) and narrative elements (realism, timeline, etc.).

[Brokeback_Dev]

The thing that always made me go hunh was when Jack took a shot at that coyote without taking the time to aim.  As a result he missed his target.  It never sat right with me.  There was no big hurry.  He could have took his time

[serious crayons]

I would have rerecorded the line where Ennis drops off the "guhls" at the store. That has always bugged me, and it doesn't seem like it would be a big deal to fix. I was just thinking about this the other day! 

(Good TOTW, Laura!)

[Brown Eyes]

I'd say that numerous mysterious aspects of the timeline provide the biggest "hunh" moments for me.

For example, the amount of time that Ennis dates Cassie and that Jack presumably sees Randall works out to be about 4 or 5 years if you look at various clues in the movie (such as the banner in the Childress dinner-dance scene). Therefore, these sideline relationships are fairly significant... if only for their duration.  The fact that Ennis seems to only be mentioning Cassie for the first time during the final camping trip, when Jack asks him if he'd ever get married again... always seems a bit odd to me.



Yep, sure enough... great TOTW!

[serious crayons]

The fact that Ennis seems to only be mentioning Cassie for the first time during the final camping trip, when Jack asks him if he'd ever get married again... always seems a bit odd to me.

Yes, especially since he says it so casually. Not like he's finally revealing a deeply held secret on a highly sensitive subject, more like a "Well, now that you mention it ..." kind of thing.

[LauraGigs]

Well, a big part of Ennis's character is that he compartmentalizes his life hugely.  His time with Jack is so cut off from the reality of his "other" life...  so although the delay in mentioning Cassie is indeed strange, I wouldn't say it's completely out of character, you know?  Especially since he seems to have next-to-zero emotional investment in that relationship.

But I very much agree that the timeline aspect is strange as far as how long they would have been dating.  4 - 5 effin' years is a long time for a relationship that was so one-sided.

[LauraGigs]

One technical problem that I'm surprised they let slip through: bad audio in spots.  In the scene where Ennis is trying to fix the tent and Jack says "It aint goin nowhere — let it be" Jack's line sounds distorted, as if the mic wasn't placed correctly.  The same is true with a few of his lines in the lake fight scene.  I imagine (would hope) they fixed that for the recent blu-ray release.

[serious crayons]

The audio is questionable throughout. I missed half the lines the first time I saw it. Only on the third time, when I went to a theater with a better sound system, did I hear everything clearly. Of course, that's partly the first theater's fault, but I never had that problem with other movies I saw there.

[SFEnnisSF]

The whole movie made me go "hunh?"!  I had to see it 56 times in the theatres  and post numerous questions on the internet, to finally get it.  And I think there's still more to be learned too...  The movie morphs with you over time as you change in your ways over time.


I'll try and think of some specific spots in the movie that made me go "hunh?".  Off the top of my head, they're not coming to me, perhaps because the specific spots that did that to me were discussed in detail and my questions and concerns were answered long ago...

[SFEnnisSF]

Ok here's one, it was when Aguirre talked about "stemmin' the rose". 

#1 I had no idea what that meant...(but I had an idea)

#2 Why would Aguirre know what that was?

[belbbmfan]

The whole movie made me go "hunh?"!  I had to see it 56 times in the theatres  and post numerous questions on the internet, to finally get it.  And I think there's still more to be learned too...  The movie morphs with you over time as you change in your ways over time.


I'll try and think of some specific spots in the movie that made me go "hunh?".  Off the top of my head, they're not coming to me, perhaps because the specific spots that did that to me were discussed in detail and my questions and concerns were answered long ago...

LOL

This makes me think of what Casey Cornelius said (I'm pretty sure it was him, but maybe not 100%) that this movie left people leaving the cinema 'feeling more things than they could articulate'. That was true for me too.
Thank god for imdb and this site.

[belbbmfan]

Great idea for a topic of the week.


When Ennis was sitting down in Jack's old room, he opened the window and you could hear the wind. Only... the curtains never moved. That made me go 'hunh?'

I actually get annoyed at myself for noticing things like these. It's distracting.

[Jeff Wrangler]

The thing that always made me go hunh was when Jack took a shot at that coyote without taking the time to aim.  As a result he missed his target.  It never sat right with me.  There was no big hurry.  He could have took his time

That's always bothered me, too! Clearly he took no time to aim. Perhaps this is why the story's eagle feather (from Jack's hat) made no appearance in the film: because anyone who could hit an eagle could surely hit that coyote! And not keep missing an elk! 

[Jeff Wrangler]

One technical problem that I'm surprised they let slip through: bad audio in spots.  In the scene where Ennis is trying to fix the tent and Jack says "It aint goin nowhere — let it be" Jack's line sounds distorted, as if the mic wasn't placed correctly.  The same is true with a few of his lines in the lake fight scene.  I imagine (would hope) they fixed that for the recent blu-ray release.

Speaking of mics, how about the infamous visible microphone cord on Alma, Jr., when Alma picks her up as Ennis is running off ot the mountains with Jack for the first time? 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'd say that numerous mysterious aspects of the timeline provide the biggest "hunh" moments for me.

I agree about the timeline issues.

(OT--which is why I'm putting this in parentheses--but there are timeline issues in AP's story as well. The ages of the children as discussed on the final camping trip don't jive with their birth dates given early in the story.)

[bailey1205]

I agree about the timeline issues.

(OT--which is why I'm putting this in parentheses--but there are timeline issues in AP's story as well. The ages of the children as discussed on the final camping trip don't jive with their birth dates given early in the story.)

OMG !  You are right !!!

I never caught that.

[LauraGigs]

Speaking of mics, how about the infamous visible microphone cord on Alma, Jr., when Alma picks her up as Ennis is running off ot the mountains with Jack for the first time? 

Whoa.  I never saw that!

[Front-Ranger]

(OT--which is why I'm putting this in parentheses--but there are timeline issues in AP's story as well. The ages of the children as discussed on the final camping trip don't jive with their birth dates given early in the story.)

Shirley, ( ) friend Laura won't mind if we talk about bloopers in the story too.

Okay, it makes clear that Alma Jr. was born in September of 1964. That would make her 19 in late 1983. Ennis and Jack were 19 in 1963, so Jack died in 1983 when he was 39 years old. But later in the story, it says that she is 17 in 1983, so you're right about the discrepancy. It's there in the movie as well, since Junior and Ennis had their last filmed conversation quite a while after Jack's death, when Ennis said to AJ: "You're nineteen, you can do what you want."

[mariez]

Whoa.  I never saw that!

Me, neither!  I agree about the timeline issues, especially in the movie.

It was only on my third viewing that I actually understood what Bobby said at the Thanksgiving table, although I had gotten the gist of it from context. 

[LauraGigs]

Ok here's one, it was when Aguirre talked about "stemmin' the rose". 

#1 I had no idea what that meant...(but I had an idea)

#2 Why would Aguirre know what that was?

Well, Annie Proulx said that when she was interviewing a ranch foreman/herder boss, he said something like "we send two up together so they can poke each other when it gets lonely".  (Although I wonder if he was exaggerating/embellishing that for her, since she was angling for info about rural homoeroticism... but that's another conversation.)  In such isolated male-only work environments, quick mutual "relief" may not have been such an anomaly. But Aguirre was still disapproving in this case, since J + E's romantic horseplay went far beyond that.

How would Aguirre know or have that terminology?  In the manual-labor world, guys can jabber on all day while working (such as Timmy the Asphalt Guy) and every conceivable subject comes up...   Ennis later says "I hear what they have in Mexico for boys like you".  Same deal.

[Front-Ranger]

My hunting/fishing buddies and I discovered a new blooper when we were traveling in Wyoming over Independence Day. Riverton does not have a fireworks celebration on the Fourth, and hasn't had one for over 20 years. That's because fireworks are put on by Lander, 20-odd miles to the southeast where the county seat is and where there is a rodeo beforehand. Riverton hosts the 1839 Rendezvous of the mountain men over that weekend instead. It's a gathering where people stage a recreation of a historic camp, along with demonstrations of shooting, butter churning, and that type of thing.

I suppose the celebration that Ennis and Alma went to could have been in Lander, but it doesn't seem likely.

[Jeff Wrangler]

It was only on my third viewing that I actually understood what Bobby said at the Thanksgiving table, although I had gotten the gist of it from context. 

Oh, I forget how many times I had to watch the movie before I caught what Bobby says! 

(Bobby doesn't sound like he's from Scranton, Pennsylvania. People from Scranton talk clearer than that.  )

[Jeff Wrangler]

How would Aguirre know or have that terminology?  In the manual-labor world, guys can jabber on all day while working (such as Timmy the Asphalt Guy) and every conceivable subject comes up...   Ennis later says "I hear what they have in Mexico for boys like you".  Same deal.

Heh. Maybe Aguirre had stemmed it a couple of times himself when he was younger. Maybe he's so pissed off because he feels guilty. 

[Brown Eyes]

My hunting/fishing buddies and I discovered a new blooper when we were traveling in Wyoming over Independence Day. Riverton does not have a fireworks celebration on the Fourth, and hasn't had one for over 20 years. That's because fireworks are put on by Lander, 20-odd miles to the southeast where the county seat is and where there is a rodeo beforehand. Riverton hosts the 1839 Rendezvous of the mountain men over that weekend instead. It's a gathering where people stage a recreation of a historic camp, along with demonstrations of shooting, butter churning, and that type of thing.

I suppose the celebration that Ennis and Alma went to could have been in Lander, but it doesn't seem likely.

Do we know if Riverton had fireworks in the mid 1960s?  The fireworks that Alma and Ennis attended were probably held around 1965 or 66 judging from the age of the girls and the fact that it was prior to the 67 reunion.

20 years ago from today would only take us back to 1989.

[serious crayons]

Heh. Maybe Aguirre had stemmed it a couple of times himself when he was younger. Maybe he's so pissed off because he feels guilty. 

Or envious, some folks theorize.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

My hunting/fishing buddies and I discovered a new blooper when we were traveling in Wyoming over Independence Day. Riverton does not have a fireworks celebration on the Fourth, and hasn't had one for over 20 years. That's because fireworks are put on by Lander, 20-odd miles to the southeast where the county seat is and where there is a rodeo beforehand. Riverton hosts the 1839 Rendezvous of the mountain men over that weekend instead. It's a gathering where people stage a recreation of a historic camp, along with demonstrations of shooting, butter churning, and that type of thing.

I suppose the celebration that Ennis and Alma went to could have been in Lander, but it doesn't seem likely.

Yeah, but that was like in 1966 or 67 wasn't it?

[Jeff Wrangler]

Or envious, some folks theorize.

Can't says as I'd blame him there. I'm envious of Ennis. ... 

[Mikaela]

The banner to this thread is fantastic! All those "huh?" expressions! Love it. 


What has made me go "huh?" is Jack's laundry activities on the day following FNIT. He washes clothes in the nude. Then he rides up to Ennis. But either he had two sets of jeans and there was no need for the nude scene (well, no need as far as the narrative goes - much need when it came to movie audiences. ) Or he had only one set of jeans, in which case they should still have been soaking wet by the time Jack rode mountainwards - the day looks pretty cold, no way they'd have dried that fast.

 

[LauraGigs]

Maybe Jack was just washing his undies.

[Mikaela]

He would have to go commando for the rest of that day, then - so no need to do the undie laundry in the buff....

[LauraGigs]

Well, undies by themselves would probably dry pretty quickly in the sun and wind... but I imagine the nudity was to show Jack's vulnerability, especially as juxtaposed with the dead sheep.

[Front-Ranger]

go commando...that cracks me up!!

The reason for the nude scene, IMO, is twofold. As is customary when camping out, you wash yourself AND your clothes at the same time. Or you wash yourself and your pots and pans, unless you are Ennis. In that case, you just roll your jeans pant legs up real tight, wade in, and wash the coffeepot. Unless the coffeepot has boiled over, in which case...but that's another thread!!
But the point that is subtly made is that Jack and Ennis approach life differently. Ennis is all buttoned up whereas Jack lets it all hang out.  

Second reason is that there is a corollary on the mountain to most events that happen down on the flatlands, and laundry is no exception. To explore this idea further, please visit the thread The Laundry Room right here on the Open Forum.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, undies by themselves would probably dry pretty quickly in the sun and wind... but I imagine the nudity was to show Jack's vulnerability, especially as juxtaposed with the dead sheep.

Yes, I completely agree with this.  I think the montage there of the dead sheep, Ennis's face and Jack's naked body is really important.  Having Ennis in the middle produces a kind of equation.  The vulnerability of the sheep is equated with the vulnerability of Jack (and relates to the longstanding urge Ennis has to protect Jack and keep him safe).  This also speaks to a really old argument I used to make about the sheep being equated to vulnerable gay men in general (or vulnerable at least in Ennis's head).  I think the sheep killed as a victim of predator loss is very much related to Earl, who was also killed by predators.  And, then this relates to Ennis's firm belief later that Jack was also the victim of predators in his own death.

A lot of this, I think has to do with visualizing Ennis's thought process.

[Mikaela]

Well, it made *me* go hunh? in terms of the actual straightforward storyline. It still does.

Of course there is symbolism galore in it, as in every little thing in the film. That wasn't what gave me pause. Their trick was to make the symbolism meld seamlessly with a realistic narrative, something they normally achieved unbelievably well. IMO this is not one of those places.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, it made *me* go hunh? in terms of the actual straightforward storyline. It still does.

Of course there is symbolism galore in it, as in every little thing in the film. That wasn't what gave me pause. Their trick was to make the symbolism meld seamlessly with a realistic narrative, something they normally achieved unbelievably well. IMO this is not one of those places.

There is also the point that for whatever Hollywood reason, each of the four "principles" has a nude--or at least seminude--scene. We've seen Heath nude, so we have to (get to  ) see Jake nude. We see Michelle's breasts, so we have to see Ann's breasts. 

Oh, and BTW, the use of this smilie    doesn't mean I find the sight of the women's breasts distasteful. It is to indicate that I think it's kind of stupid that "they had to do this," give each star a nude/seminude scene, whether or not it was necessary to the plot. And I guess that's the definition of "gratuitous nudity." As happy as I am to see Jake Gyllenhaal nude, or even only seminude, and regardless of any symbolism that may be superimposed on it, for me the scene of Jack doing the laundry in the altogether is completely unnecessary. By contrast, the view of Heath "warshing" in the background while Jake peels potatoes--and the muscle in his jaw twitches  --is important to advance the plot--and, moreover, it comes right out of Annie Proulx's text.

[SFEnnisSF]

Well, Annie Proulx said that when she was interviewing a ranch foreman/herder boss, he said something like "we send two up together so they can poke each other when it gets lonely".  (Although I wonder if he was exaggerating/embellishing that for her, since she was angling for info about rural homoeroticism... but that's another conversation.)  In such isolated male-only work environments, quick mutual "relief" may not have been such an anomaly. But Aguirre was still disapproving in this case, since J + E's romantic horseplay went far beyond that.

How would Aguirre know or have that terminology?  In the manual-labor world, guys can jabber on all day while working (such as Timmy the Asphalt Guy) and every conceivable subject comes up...   Ennis later says "I hear what they have in Mexico for boys like you".  Same deal.

I still find it facinating that these "straight men" have such common terminology for all of these "things" and that they are so common (and obviously going on quite a bit) that everyone knows what the terminology is and what they're talking about.  They just can't actually call it what it is.. Seems ok to do it and acknolwedge that it all goes on, and have slang terms for it all, but don't ever talk about it...

[SFEnnisSF]

To this day, I still don't fully understand the scene with Jimbo in the bar.  I'm not sure I ever will either... 

[Jeff Wrangler]

To this day, I still don't fully understand the scene with Jimbo in the bar.  I'm not sure I ever will either... 

I think the problem with that scene might be insufficient context. I believe I understand what it's supposed to represent--Jack reaching out to another guy. But I don't think it portrays very well what I think it's supposed to portray (sorry, Ang Lee fans. ...). Jack's offer to buy Jimbo a drink doesn't come off to me as being particularly like a come-on, and Jimbo's reaction has always struck me as hostile out of all proportion. Perhaps if the camera had lingered a bit longer on the guys Jimbo goes to join, or showed them looking at Jack in a not particularly friendly way, but it really doesn't. 

[serious crayons]

I think that scene is supposed to be a little ambiguous, but it doesn't seem completely confusing. Jack's lingering eye contact with Jimbo is supposed to indicate that he's offering something more than just a friendly drink. And Jimbo gets disproportionately hostile because either he's straight and is disproportionately threatened in the way some straight guys are by that kind of thing, or he's gay (some have argued) and feels he's being outed.

As for the guys at the pool table, though -- are they talking about Jack or not? -- I think we're supposed to be unsure about that, just as Jack would be at the time, just as Ennis is at the end about Jack's fate. The idea is that, in that culture, guys like Jack and Ennis would never know exactly what the people on the pavement were saying and thinking. But Jack leaves hastily in any case, either out of frustration or a sense of potential danger.

[Mandy21]

The part I didn't understand was Ang's vision of how Jake G. should look into the eyes of his other lovers, and potential lovers, over the years.  If you were to capture the exact seconds where we saw Jack look into the eyes of the rodeo clown, and into the eyes of Lureen in the back seat, and into the eyes of the Mexican lover (the cinematographer, it turns out), and in to the eyes of Randall, it always seemed to me to be much more pressing than the way he looked at Ennis.  I like to tell myself that it was a question of love (Ennis) vs. lust (all the others), but he also lusted after Ennis, so how do you explain the difference in Jack's gaze towards all of his lovers?  What are we supposed to take from that?

[Kerry]

The thing that has always made me go "Hunh?" from the very first viewing, right up to the present day, is the age Ennis is portrayed at the end of the movie. At the beginning of the story, AP says that J&E are "not yet 20." The course of their relationship covers 20 years, meaning Jack would have been 39 when he died. Ergo, Ennis would have also been 39. And yet Ennis is portrayed as a hunched over, shuffling, wrinkled senior citizen with matted, graying hair when he visit's Jack's parents at Lightning Flat, shortly after Jack's death. But he was only 39! That's a young man! Not yet 40!  He was made-up to look like a 59yo. And in Ennis' close-ups towards the end of the film, the make-up crows-feet around his eyes are very obvious to me. It looks like make-up. This was particularly obvious to me on the big cinema screen. I wish Ang Lee would have made Ennis look more like 39 and less like 59.

[LauraGigs]

That's a good point, Kerry.

[LauraGigs]

If you were to capture the exact seconds where we saw Jack look into the eyes of the rodeo clown, and into the eyes of Lureen in the back seat, and into the eyes of the Mexican lover (the cinematographer, it turns out), and in to the eyes of Randall, it always seemed to me to be much more pressing than the way he looked at Ennis.

You think? 

My opinion: Jack's eye contact is pretty major with Jimbo, true.  With Lureen, he's basically acting the whole time.  He gives the Mexican a tired, resigned look and nod, followed by a can-I-trust-you look as they start to walk.  His looks at Randall are evasive – or matter-of-fact, at best.
Jack gives Ennis major gazes when he sees him outside Aguirre's trailer, during the "most you've spoke in 2 weeks" conversation, and (especially tenderly) in the second tent scene. 

You thought his eye contact was more pressing with the others, though?

[Brokeback_Dev]

Wonderful TOTW, Laura.  I can see this is going to be a classic "never go out of style" topic for all of us to think about and write about.  Alll thoughts posted so far have given me something to think about.

[Jeff Wrangler]

The thing that has always made me go "Hunh?" from the very first viewing, right up to the present day, is the age Ennis is portrayed at the end of the movie. At the beginning of the story, AP says that J&E are "not yet 20." The course of their relationship covers 20 years, meaning Jack would have been 39 when he died. Ergo, Ennis would have also been 39. And yet Ennis is portrayed as a hunched over, shuffling, wrinkled senior citizen with matted, graying hair when he visit's Jack's parents at Lightning Flat, shortly after Jack's death. But he was only 39! That's a young man! Not yet 40!  He was made-up to look like a 59yo. And in Ennis' close-ups towards the end of the film, the make-up crows-feet around his eyes are very obvious to me. It looks like make-up. This was particularly obvious to me on the big cinema screen. I wish Ang Lee would have made Ennis look more like 39 and less like 59.

Me, I don't think he looks that old. And don't forget, he's had a hard life, most of it spent working outdoors in all kinds of weather in a dry climate--and that endless Wyoming wind. That would tend to age someone's appearance--and Ennis doesn't strike me as the type to use many skin care products. ... 

[Kelda]

Wonderful TOTW, Laura.  I can see this is going to be a classic "never go out of style" topic for all of us to think about and write about.  Alll thoughts posted so far have given me something to think about.

me too and i dont stray into the open forum very often these days. Thanks laura!

[Brown Eyes]

One technical problem that I'm surprised they let slip through: bad audio in spots.  In the scene where Ennis is trying to fix the tent and Jack says "It aint goin nowhere — let it be" Jack's line sounds distorted, as if the mic wasn't placed correctly.  The same is true with a few of his lines in the lake fight scene.  I imagine (would hope) they fixed that for the recent blu-ray release.

I agree that there are moments- particularly the "ain't goin nowhere" moment- when there seems to be an actual techncial problem with the sound.

But, I was thinking about this more last night, and it occurs to me that those technical difficulty moments should be distinguished, I think, from moments when we're deliberately not meant to be able to hear the conversations between Jack and Ennis.  These moments happen usually when the camera is quite a distance away.  I think these instances are meant to make us realize that we're intruding on private moments (not unlike Aguirre).

[Brown Eyes]

Well, Annie Proulx said that when she was interviewing a ranch foreman/herder boss, he said something like "we send two up together so they can poke each other when it gets lonely".  (Although I wonder if he was exaggerating/embellishing that for her, since she was angling for info about rural homoeroticism... but that's another conversation.)  In such isolated male-only work environments, quick mutual "relief" may not have been such an anomaly. But Aguirre was still disapproving in this case, since J + E's romantic horseplay went far beyond that.

How would Aguirre know or have that terminology?  In the manual-labor world, guys can jabber on all day while working (such as Timmy the Asphalt Guy) and every conceivable subject comes up...   Ennis later says "I hear what they have in Mexico for boys like you".  Same deal.

I also wanted to follow up on these conversations about terminology for sex and slang.... It's interesting that in this quotation that Laura points out, the term "poke" is used.

For anyone who has read Lonesome Dove and the other books in the Lonesome Dove series, you'll recognize this as a quintessential Lonesome Dove term.   It's almost the only term used to refer to sex... and in the case of those books, hetero sex.

[Front-Ranger]

One technical problem that I'm surprised they let slip through: bad audio in spots.  In the scene where Ennis is trying to fix the tent and Jack says "It aint goin nowhere — let it be" Jack's line sounds distorted, as if the mic wasn't placed correctly.  The same is true with a few of his lines in the lake fight scene.  I imagine (would hope) they fixed that for the recent blu-ray release.

I believe they have. In June I watched the Blu-ray version and I'm sorry you couldn't make it for that viewing, because the audio was much, much improved. In fact, you could hear everything said in the tent scenes crystal clear!! (It may have been attributable to Adam's great speaker system as well!)

[Jeff Wrangler]

I believe they have. In June I watched the Blu-ray version and I'm sorry you couldn't make it for that viewing, because the audio was much, much improved. In fact, you could hear everything said in the tent scenes crystal clear!! (It may have been attributable to Adam's great speaker system as well!)

Tell you what, I remember quite well that the quality and clarity of the audio varied depending on where I was sitting in the theater.

[Marge_Innavera]

Shirley, ( ) friend Laura won't mind if we talk about bloopers in the story too.

Okay, it makes clear that Alma Jr. was born in September of 1964. That would make her 19 in late 1983. Ennis and Jack were 19 in 1963, so Jack died in 1983 when he was 39 years old. But later in the story, it says that she is 17 in 1983, so you're right about the discrepancy. It's there in the movie as well, since Junior and Ennis had their last filmed conversation quite a while after Jack's death, when Ennis said to AJ: "You're nineteen, you can do what you want."

The timeline is puzzling to me in terms of Cassie and Randall, but if Alma Jr was born in fall of 1964, she would be 19 in the spring of 1984. If Jack died sometime in spring of 1983, and Ennis went up to Lightning Flat sometime in the fall of that year (judging from the look of the vegetation), that would work for setting the final scene in spring of '84. But the timeline does have some discrepancies that I guess you just have to suspend disbelief with. (Referring specifically to the movie here.)

I would have put in some scenes at least showing physical affection    in the second half of the film. When I first saw it, I remember thinking 'what are they still keeping this a secret for?'

[Marge_Innavera]

What has made me go "huh?" is Jack's laundry activities on the day following FNIT. He washes clothes in the nude. Then he rides up to Ennis. But either he had two sets of jeans and there was no need for the nude scene (well, no need as far as the narrative goes - much need when it came to movie audiences. ) Or he had only one set of jeans, in which case they should still have been soaking wet by the time Jack rode mountainwards - the day looks pretty cold, no way they'd have dried that fast.

If you're camping and you have just one change of clothes (i.e., two pairs of jeans and shirts) and are washing them in a creek, you'd do that either naked or in your underwear. That ensures you'll have a dry set to put on afterward -- which can be important in a chilly climate like that.

All the symbolism in that scene that people have mentioned makes sense -- so it's actually symbolism that fits in well with non-symbolic reality.   

[bailey1205]

I had a lot of "hunh's" in the movie for awhile.

It took me the 10th viewing to understand everything Ennis said.

 

[Mandy21]

You think? 

My opinion: Jack's eye contact is pretty major with Jimbo, true.  With Lureen, he's basically acting the whole time.  He gives the Mexican a tired, resigned look and nod, followed by a can-I-trust-you look as they start to walk.  His looks at Randall are evasive – or matter-of-fact, at best.
Jack gives Ennis major gazes when he sees him outside Aguirre's trailer, during the "most you've spoke in 2 weeks" conversation, and (especially tenderly) in the second tent scene. 

You thought his eye contact was more pressing with the others, though?

Hey Laura, hope you're well!  Yes, IMHO, I thought Ang was trying to make a distinct differentiation between lust and love.  First couple times I watched it, before I grasped the importance of the bar speech where Jack reveals he was there the previous year, I presumed Jack was a virgin when he met Ennis.  The more times I watched it, I changed my mind on that one and started presuming that he'd been with both men *and* women before Ennis.  As such, he would begin to know by that time how to speak your intentions with your eyes.  Seems like he never sent out the love vibe to anyone but Ennis.  Even the SNIT scene looked more like a love look than a lust look to me.  I watched it again last night for about the 300th time now, and still feel the same.  Just my opinion, though.  I really wish I was one of those smart folks who can extract exact moments from movies, and put them side-by-side-by-side, but I'm not.  Oh well, great topic to discuss!

[optom3]

I love the topic,   it has tempted me back into this forum.  The thing that really made me go hunh ? was the total havoc that both the film and movie caused in every aspect of my life.  I  thought as I had read the S.S so many times, I was all cried out and the movie would just be another facet. Hmm well that could not have been further from the truth.All this time on and the saga of BBM still jangles nerves and pulls on my heart. I cannot hear the music without experiencing a massive lurch of stomach and heart.
I look back at the photo of those Brokies who came to the get together at my house, and the look of utter shell shock present on the faces of all who had just watched the movie, pretty well sums it all up.
I have ceased questioning my reactions  so much, they are as they are and I will probably never know why. I got to nearly 50 having been an avid reader pretty well all my life and nothing has ever had this effect on me. Sure I have seen some sad films, read some sad books, maybe even shed a few tears and thought about things for a couple of days. Never before have I behaved like this. I would have laughed cynically and with scorn, had anyone suggested I would be feeling all these desperate raw emotions, so far down the road.

So I guess the whole movie is a massive hunh, to me.

[LauraGigs]

I still find it facinating that these "straight men" have such common terminology for all of these "things" and that they are so common (and obviously going on quite a bit) that everyone knows what the terminology is and what they're talking about.  They just can't actually call it what it is.. Seems ok to do it and acknolwedge that it all goes on, and have slang terms for it all, but don't ever talk about it...

Do you mean when they talk about gay sex, or about sex in general?  Because slang terms and vagaries are used all the time about straight sex, too.  (I wonder if it's American puritanism, or if it's also common in other countries.)  Like, it's never "Are you having sex with her?"  It's, "Does she put out?" or "You gettin any?" or some such thing.  (Or in Ennis's case, "It's normal and all?")

[LauraGigs]

Hey Laura, hope you're well!  Yes, IMHO, I thought Ang was trying to make a distinct differentiation between lust and love.  First couple times I watched it, before I grasped the importance of the bar speech where Jack reveals he was there the previous year, I presumed Jack was a virgin when he met Ennis.  The more times I watched it, I changed my mind on that one and started presuming that he'd been with both men *and* women before Ennis.  As such, he would begin to know by that time how to speak your intentions with your eyes.  Seems like he never sent out the love vibe to anyone but Ennis.  Even the SNIT scene looked more like a love look than a lust look to me.  I watched it again last night for about the 300th time now, and still feel the same.  Just my opinion, though.  I really wish I was one of those smart folks who can extract exact moments from movies, and put them side-by-side-by-side, but I'm not.  Oh well, great topic to discuss!

Oh, OK!  I understand much better what you mean, now.  Those are cool observations!

[belbbmfan]

I had a lot of "hunh's" in the movie for awhile.

It took me the 10th viewing to understand everything Ennis said.

 

We were lucky. We had subtitles. (And a lot of confusion later about the infamous 'I'm sorry' during the SNIT)

[bailey1205]

We were lucky. We had subtitles. (And a lot of confusion later about the infamous 'I'm sorry' during the SNIT)

LMAO !

I remember that well.

 

[LauraGigs]

I would have put in some scenes at least showing physical affection    in the second half of the film. When I first saw it, I remember thinking 'what are they still keeping this a secret for?'

You know one thing that bothers me...  After Tent Scene 2, you have:

Tussle scene
Aguirre/pneumonia
Hailstorm
Untangle them sheep/harmonica playing

Then the summer ends.  For a lot of viewers, it's just not going to add up to a significant romantic relationship.  It just seems so brief. 

Obviously, its significance is made clear later by the fact that they agonize over each other the rest of their lives.  And the film is all about missed opportunity, I know — and Ang deliberately starves the viewers of the luxury of lingering romance, to help make the point that J + E were also starved of it.

But when some once-only viewers would post on IMDB saying crap like, "Well, it just didn't seem like that big a deal"    I can kind of understand why they'd think that, even if I don't agree.

[bailey1205]

I agree Laura.

I wish they had put in more for the OS into the motel scene.

OS Ennis was definitely more vocal about his feelings for Jack.

Also, the OS "never enough time, never enough"

One of the guys I worked with said it was just a movie about two guys cheating on their wives.

I told him he needed to read the story.

[Jeff Wrangler]

You know one thing that bothers me...  After Tent Scene 2, you have:

Tussle scene
Aguirre/pneumonia
Hailstorm
Untangle them sheep/harmonica playing

Then the summer ends.  For a lot of viewers, it's just not going to add up to a significant romantic relationship.  It just seems so brief. 

Obviously, its significance is made clear later by the fact that they agonize over each other the rest of their lives.  And the film is all about missed opportunity, I know — and Ang deliberately starves the viewers of the luxury of lingering romance, to help make the point that J + E were also starved of it.

But when some once-only viewers would post on IMDB saying crap like, "Well, it just didn't seem like that big a deal"    I can kind of understand why they'd think that, even if I don't agree.

Good observation, Laura! 

[SFEnnisSF]

Do you mean when they talk about gay sex, or about sex in general?  Because slang terms and vagaries are used all the time about straight sex, too.  (I wonder if it's American puritanism, or if it's also common in other countries.)  Like, it's never "are you having sex with her?"  It's "does she put out?" or some such thing.  (Or in Ennis's case, "It's normal and all?")

I was meanin' when they specifically bring up the gay sex.

[SFEnnisSF]

You know one thing that bothers me...  After Tent Scene 2, you have:

Tussle scene
Aguirre/pneumonia
Hailstorm
Untangle them sheep/harmonica playing

Then the summer ends.  For a lot of viewers, it's just not going to add up to a significant romantic relationship.  It just seems so brief. 

Obviously, its significance is made clear later by the fact that they agonize over each other the rest of their lives.  And the film is all about missed opportunity, I know — and Ang deliberately starves the viewers of the luxury of lingering romance, to help make the point that J + E were also starved of it.

But when some once-only viewers would post on IMDB saying crap like, "Well, it just didn't seem like that big a deal"    I can kind of understand why they'd think that, even if I don't agree.

Ten times what you say here!!  Even if we had even gotten 15 more seconds of intimacy between the two of them it would have helped tremendously.  In fact, this was one of the things that I struggled with the most with this movie.  Maybe that's how come I ended up here...

[mariez]

You know one thing that bothers me...  After Tent Scene 2, you have:

Tussle scene
Aguirre/pneumonia
Hailstorm
Untangle them sheep/harmonica playing

Then the summer ends.  For a lot of viewers, it's just not going to add up to a significant romantic relationship.  It just seems so brief. 

Obviously, its significance is made clear later by the fact that they agonize over each other the rest of their lives.  And the film is all about missed opportunity, I know — and Ang deliberately starves the viewers of the luxury of lingering romance, to help make the point that J + E were also starved of it.

But when some once-only viewers would post on IMDB saying crap like, "Well, it just didn't seem like that big a deal"    I can kind of understand why they'd think that, even if I don't agree.

I have to chime in.  This is so true.  In trying to convey to the audience that same sense of longing, that same sense of "never enough" that J&E felt, he may have overdone it a bit.  I read the short story first, so I came to the movie knowing it was a true love story, but many viewers were watching the movie "cold" so to speak. 

[Marge_Innavera]

I had a lot of "hunh's" in the movie for awhile.

It took me the 10th viewing to understand everything Ennis said.

I read a list of "signs you're a real Brokie" a long time ago, and seem to remember that "actually understanding everything Ennis says" was one of the items.   

[Front-Ranger]

I disagree. If the movie had shown more intimacy and bonding between Jack and Ennis after the tent scene, then the fight tussle and their abrupt breakup at the end of the summer would not have made sense. And their happy tussle was meant to just be a representation of something that happened several times. Just my humble opinion.

[belbbmfan]

I have to chime in.  This is so true.  In trying to convey to the audience that same sense of longing, that same sense of "never enough" that J&E felt, he may have overdone it a bit.  I read the short story first, so I came to the movie knowing it was a true love story, but many viewers were watching the movie "cold" so to speak. 

I'm not sure about this.

The SNIT was added to the story and it was very passionate and affectionate, love, not just physical attraction. And the thing that really drew me to the movie (and read the story in anticipation of the movie) was the trailer with the reunion scene and Ennis' longing looks just before the reunion scene. OMG, the passion that spoke from that to me made it clear that their connection was a very deep and special one. It gave me goosebumps and still does.
Anyone who didn't get that, maybe just wasn't ready. 

I bumped into someone from work at the cinema, during the BBM days. She's a psychologist, working in the HR department. My husband and I were going to watch Casanova and she was off to BBM. I asked her, laughingly 'did you bring your hanky?'
The next day I asked her what she thought of the movie and she said 'it was so-so'.  I nearly keeled over, couldn't believe what she said. That was the first time I realised this movie was not for everyone to get.

Maybe you're right Marie, about watching the movie cold. Maybe a lot of people are so used by now to all kinds of mushy love stories where every emotion is shown (and explained several times just to make sure) that this type of movie doesn't make a huge impression on them.

[Mandy21]

I look back at the photo of those Brokies who came to the get together at my house, and the look of utter shell shock present on the faces of all who had just watched the movie, pretty well sums it all up.

Hiya, Fiona.  Thinking back on that viewing at your house, I don't know what in the world caused me to stand up and take that picture of you all at that exact second.  Sitting in front, I knew before even glancing at you all on the couch, that the looks on your faces had to be memorialized.  I did know that if I didn't take that photo, it would be a moment lost forever, and I thought that the other folks at BM would have missed out on it if they didn't see it.  To me, it summed up that day/reunion entirely.  I'm only glad that none of you were mad at me for taking it, for capturing all of your's raw emotions towards this film, and especially the utter sadness of the ending.  It was priceless to me.  As was holding you in my arms, through your tears, when we first watched it alone together.  Me trying to pretend to be strong cause you were a basket case of weepiness.   I would agree with you that the entire experience of this movie, the friendships and ties that have been formed, the places we've been to to visit other Brokies, the words of wisdom and advice given and received, should add up to all of us saying "Hunh?" to the entire thing.  It's amazing the journey one single film has taken us all on, and I wouldn't trade it for the world...

[retropian]

I would have put in some scenes at least showing physical affection    in the second half of the film. When I first saw it, I remember thinking 'what are they still keeping this a secret for?'

I would second this! I would have like to have seen the physical connection they had after 20years expressed in the "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." scene. It was in the story. Going back to the 1st summer, I would have liked at least 1 more scene, perhaps an expansion on what they were doing right before Aguirre spied on them. In the story he watched for 10 minutes! I hope you noticed that the knees of Ennis's jeans are muddy. He's been kneeling in the dirt. Wonder what was going on? Hmmm. Also, the one thing I've always missed that was in the story, but not in the film, is the ""felt like he could paw the white off the Moon." scene as Ennis rode back to the sheep.

Ian

[Jeff Wrangler]

I would have put in some scenes at least showing physical affection    in the second half of the film. When I first saw it, I remember thinking 'what are they still keeping this a secret for?'

Tell you what, thinking about this, this morning. It might not even have taken much, or much time. Remember the scene (just after Jack's "blue parka" confrontation with Lureen), where we see Jack dumping corn on the cob in a pot over the fire, and Ennis shows up, and Jack gets a big smile on his face? Well, what if we'd had a shot, just after that, of the two of them giving each other a great big ol' hug? It wouldn't even have had to be anything explicitly sexual or even "romantic," just a little bit of something to show us how much they enjoyed just being together.

I'm just thinkin' out loud here. 

[Front-Ranger]

Tell you what, thinking about this, this morning. It might not even have taken much, or much time. Remember the scene (just after Jack's "blue parka" confrontation with Lureen), where we see Jack dumping corn on the cob in a pot over the fire, and Ennis shows up, and Jack gets a big smile on his face? Well, what if we'd had a shot, just after that, of the two of them giving each other a great big ol' hug? It wouldn't even have had to be anything explicitly sexual or even "romantic," just a little bit of something to show us how much they enjoyed just being together.

I'm just thinkin' out loud here. 

You're a real thinker there, Jeff. 

[mariez]

The SNIT was added to the story and it was very passionate and affectionate, love, not just physical attraction. And the thing that really drew me to the movie (and read the story in anticipation of the movie) was the trailer with the reunion scene and Ennis' longing looks just before the reunion scene. OMG, the passion that spoke from that to me made it clear that their connection was a very deep and special one. It gave me goosebumps and still does.

Oh, I loved the SNIT - and I'm glad it was added.  The funny thing is, though, that if I go strictly by the ss, I'm not sure it fits what AP describes - but I'm glad it was filmed just the way it was.  I do think that it was necessary (especially for viewers who hadn't read the ss) in order to get a better sense of their relationship and their feelings.  The reunion is my favorite part of the movie - brilliantly done in every way - the acting, the directing, etc. 

I guess I'm tallking more about the second half of the movie, after the reunion, as has been mentioned.  I think Jeff gave a great example.  Throughout all those many years there had to have been some really happy, joyful moments between them, and I don't think it would have detracted from the point Ang Lee was trying to make to include just one, and I'm sure he could've done it in a way that wasn't overly mushy or corny.

The next day I asked her what she thought of the movie and she said 'it was so-so'.  I nearly keeled over, couldn't believe what she said. That was the first time I realised this movie was not for everyone to get.

OMG, I know everyone has different tastes - but that I just do not understand at all!  It's so hard for me to believe someone could walk away from that movie and not feel that they had been through a life-changing experience!  Ah, well, I guess that's why places like this this were created! 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Oh, I loved the SNIT - and I'm glad it was added.  The funny thing is, though, that if I go strictly by the ss, I'm not sure it fits what AP describes. 

Tell you what, that's a very good point. On the other hand, my memory of the scene is that as they begin to make love, Ennis has his eyes closed, which always made me think of what Annie says in her description of Jack's memory of the dozy embrace--that the memory wasn't marred for Jack by the knowledge that at the time the dozy embrace happened, Ennis couldn't bring himself to face the fact that it was Jack--a man--that he was embracing.

It's very subtle--and maybe I'm even imagining it--but I've always associated Ennis having his eyes closed with his not willing to face up to his feelings.

But I certainly agree, we needed to see a tender love scene to illustrate that what they really felt was love.

[Jeff Wrangler]

You're a real thinker there, Jeff. 

  

[mariez]

Tell you what, that's a very good point. On the other hand, my memory of the scene is that as they begin to make love, Ennis has his eyes closed, which always made me think of what Annie says in her description of Jack's memory of the dozy embrace--that the memory wasn't marred for Jack by the knowledge that at the time the dozy embrace happened, Ennis couldn't bring himself to face the fact that it was Jack--a man--that he was embracing.

It's very subtle--and maybe I'm even imagining it--but I've always associated Ennis having his eyes closed with his not willing to face up to his feelings.

But I certainly agree, we needed to see a tender love scene to illustrate that what they really felt was love.

Excellent point about Ennis having his eyes closed, Jeff - if his eyes are closed than it's not really "face to face" and all the symbolism that entails.  I like how you connected that with how she describes the dozy embrace.  I was also thinking of her words:

"without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.

As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises,..."

which kind of imply (to me at least) that there wasn't any hesitancy on either one of their parts after that first night.  But, as I said, I'm really glad they filmed the SNIT the way they did.  It not only fit into the movie beautifully, it fit better with the quieter, more contained Ennis that Heath created so brilliantly.

[LauraGigs]

Several posts that follow this one have been split off into their own topic: Love vs. Lust.

That is a pretty big subject and I think it warrants its own space.

Back to Things that made you go "hunh"!

[LauraGigs]

One thing that always struck me as odd was the amount of child support Ennis was ordered to pay.   

It was 1975.  I don't have a perfectly clear idea of how 1975 dollars compare with 2009 ones, but $125 a month for each child seems like an awful lot for that time and place.

[tampatalon]

One thing that always struck me as odd what the amount of child support Ennis was ordered to pay.   

It was 1975.  Being around Jenny's age, I don't have a clear picture of what 1975 dollars would pay for now, but $125 dollars a month for each child seems like an awful lot for that time and place.

I had an uncle that was a steelworker making about 25K that divorced in '74. His obligation
was $110.00 per child per month so $125.00 seems pretty steep to me for what Ennis prolly
made.

TampaTalon^">

[Fran]

I have a small "hunh":  I wonder why the screenwriters (or perhaps the director) felt it necessary to change Francine's name to Jennifer (Jenny).  I originally thought it was because "Francine" was too French-sounding or perhaps because it seemed "too modern" -- in which case it could have just been changed to "Frances" -- but, according to Wikipedia, Francine was a very popular name in the U.S. in the 1940s and 1950s: 

Francine is a female given name. The name is of French origin, derived from French name Francoise, itself the female version of Francois, the French form of Francis. The name Francine was most popular in France itself during the 1940s (Besnard & Desplanques 2003), and was well used in the United States during the 1940s and 1950s (Evans 2006). Short forms are Frannie, Frans and Fran.

It seems to me, based on the above, that Wyomingites Alma and Ennis could have very well chosen Francine as the name for their younger daughter without it raising any eyebrows. 

Does anyone care to speculate on why Francine might have been changed to Jennifer? 

For starters, maybe it's as simple as McMurtry, Ossana, or Ang Lee just don't like that name. 

[mariez]

I have a small "hunh":  I wonder why the screenwriters (or perhaps the director) felt it necessary to change Francine's name to Jennifer (Jenny).  I originally thought it was because "Francine" was too French-sounding or perhaps because it seemed "too modern" -- in which case it could have just been changed to "Frances" -- but, according to Wikipedia, Francine was a very popular name in the U.S. in the 1940s and 1950s: 

Francine is a female given name. The name is of French origin, derived from French name Francoise, itself the female version of Francois, the French form of Francis. The name Francine was most popular in France itself during the 1940s (Besnard & Desplanques 2003), and was well used in the United States during the 1940s and 1950s (Evans 2006). Short forms are Frannie, Frans and Fran.

It seems to me, based on the above, that Wyomingites Alma and Ennis could have very well chosen Francine as the name for their younger daughter without it raising any eyebrows. 

Does anyone care to speculate on why Francine might have been changed to Jennifer? 

For starters, maybe it's as simple as McMurtry, Ossana, or Ang Lee just don't like that name. 

Hi Fran!  I remember reading about this and after searching around a bit, I found out where I'd heard it discussed in the Chez Tremblay forum.  Diana Ossana gave an interview at the Samuel Goldwyn Theater in Beverly Hills on August 4 of last year.   

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,22245.0.html

Bettermostian tamarack was kind enough to transcribe the interview (links provided in his initial post).  The part about Francine/Jenny is in part 2 of the transcript:

Audience: I just have a small trivia question. There’s a difference between Annie’s novel and your story that centers around the name of the younger daughter, which you changed from Francine to Jenny. I’d like to hear the story behind that.

Oh, it’s a simple story. They have to check on names, and if it belongs to a real person you have to get them cleared, so that’s why the names are changed. That’s the only reason, because we didn’t get clearance from the real people.


When I read her reply, I have to admit that that was one reason I'd never considered! 

[serious crayons]

That's weird. So somewhere out there, there's a Francine Del Mar, and she wouldn't give the OK? But apparently the Jenny Del Mars of the world were fine with it? And Francine would have been a legal risk, even if she wasn't a 20-something woman from Wyoming? Or maybe she was.

Wouldn't they have to make a lot of calls in movies where the characters had fairly common names? If that's the case, I'm amazed movie characters don't all have names like, I don't know, Nightshade Von Tibbleskins or something.

But wait -- Renee Zelwegger's character in Jerry Maguire is name Dorothy Boyd, which is my grandmother's name. And I don't remember HER getting a call! I don't think anyone would have confused the two, though. 

These little moviemaking rules can be strange. A friend owns the prop master's copy of the BBM script. One thing it notes is that the beer and whiskey bottles that Jack and Ennis drink from that first summer all had to have their labels turned from the camera. That's because Jack and Ennis were underage to drink. In their later years, showing the labels was OK.

 

[Fran]

Hi Fran!  I remember reading about this and after searching around a bit, I found out where I'd heard it discussed in the Chez Tremblay forum.  Diana Ossana gave an interview at the Samuel Goldwyn Theater in Beverly Hills on August 4 of last year.   

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,22245.0.html

Bettermostian tamarack was kind enough to transcribe the interview (links provided in his initial post).  The part about Francine/Jenny is in part 2 of the transcript:

Audience: I just have a small trivia question. There’s a difference between Annie’s novel and your story that centers around the name of the younger daughter, which you changed from Francine to Jenny. I’d like to hear the story behind that.

Oh, it’s a simple story. They have to check on names, and if it belongs to a real person you have to get them cleared, so that’s why the names are changed. That’s the only reason, because we didn’t get clearance from the real people.


When I read her reply, I have to admit that that was one reason I'd never considered! 

Thanks, Marie.

Do you think the clearances would be from every "Francine del Mar" living in Riverton, or do you think the geographic area would be larger, like every "Francine del Mar" in the state of Wyoming?  Surely, not every "Francine del Mar" living in the U.S..... Imagine the work involved if a character had a common name like Mary Smith.

Edited to add:

I think if this legal stuff was up to me, I would only require clearances from a Francine del Mar if her mother was named Alma and her father was named Ennis. 

In any event, now I know what "Clearances by" and "Additional Clearances by" in the end credits refer to.

[tamarack]

One thing that I noticed from the beginning is that when we first see Ennis cooking over the campfire he is handling the pan with a bare hand. Ouch!

By the time he was cooking up that elk, he was wearing a glove. (And I always loved that he shook salt into his hand to see how much was coming out. How many times have I done that! That was just so real.)

I always thought that Jack's "shoot before you aim" process says a lot about his personality. And he must have found that eagle feather on the ground!

[mariez]

That's weird. So somewhere out there, there's a Francine Del Mar, and she wouldn't give the OK? But apparently the Jenny Del Mars of the world were fine with it? And Francine would have been a legal risk, even if she wasn't a 20-something woman from Wyoming? Or maybe she was.

Wouldn't they have to make a lot of calls in movies where the characters had fairly common names? If that's the case, I'm amazed movie characters don't all have names like, I don't know, Nightshade Von Tibbleskins or something.

I know - it does seem weird.  If Diana Ossana herself hadn't said it, I'm not sure I'd believe it.  Nightshade Von Tibbleskins      And funny about your grandmother, too! 

These little moviemaking rules can be strange. A friend owns the prop master's copy of the BBM script. One thing it notes is that the beer and whiskey bottles that Jack and Ennis drink from that first summer all had to have their labels turned from the camera. That's because Jack and Ennis were underage to drink. In their later years, showing the labels was OK.

Oh, that's an interesting bit of trivia! 

Thanks, Marie.

Do you think the clearances would be from every "Francine del Mar" living in Riverton, or do you think the geographic area would be larger, like every "Francine del Mar" in the state of Wyoming?  Surely, not every "Francine del Mar" living in the U.S..... Imagine the work involved if a character had a common name like Mary Smith.

Yeah, you'd think it would have to apply only to a relatively small geographical area otherwise it does seem impossible to control.  That would be interesting to look into. 

I think if this legal stuff was up to me, I would only require clearances from a Francine del Mar if her mother was named Alma and her father was named Ennis. 

   Yep.  That would narrow it down a bit, wouldn't it? 

In any event, now I know what "Clearances by" and "Additional Clearances by" in the end credits refer to.

I've never really paid attention to that before in the credits - but I sure will now!

[LauraGigs]

I had an uncle that was a steelworker making about 25K that divorced in '74. His obligation was $110.00 per child per month so $125.00 seems pretty steep to me for what Ennis prolly made.

What part of the country was this in, Talon?

I imagine Ennis's payments might have been reduced when Alma married Monroe, although I'm not very familiar with that area of the law.

Would Ennis and Alma's divorce have been "no-fault"?  Or would Alma have to have grounds, such as cruelty, infidelity or irreconcilable differences?  Although if she had claimed infidelity at that point, the Thanksgiving revelations would not have happened the way they did.

[LauraGigs]

One thing that I noticed from the beginning is that when we first see Ennis cooking over the campfire he is handling the pan with a bare hand. Ouch!
By the time he was cooking up that elk, he was wearing a glove. (And I always loved that he shook salt into his hand to see how much was coming out. How many times have I done that! That was just so real.)

Great observations, Tamarack.

I always thought that Jack's "shoot before you aim" process says a lot about his personality. And he must have found that eagle feather on the ground!

 

[tampatalon]

What part of the country was this in, Talon?

I imagine Ennis's payments might have been reduced when Alma married Monroe, although I'm not very familiar with that area of the law.

Would Ennis and Alma's divorce have been "no-fault"?  Or would Alma have to have grounds, such as cruelty, infidelity or irreconcilable differences?  Although if she had claimed infidelity at that point, the Thanksgiving revelations would not have happened the way they did.

My reference for my uncle was western Pennsylvania back when steel was king.


TampaTalon^">

[Monika]

Speaking of mics, how about the infamous visible microphone cord on Alma, Jr., when Alma picks her up as Ennis is running off ot the mountains with Jack for the first time? 

I have never seen it...and how many times have I watched the movie by now?



great thread btw

[Monika]

I'd say that numerous mysterious aspects of the timeline provide the biggest "hunh" moments for me.

For example, the amount of time that Ennis dates Cassie and that Jack presumably sees Randall works out to be about 4 or 5 years if you look at various clues in the movie (such as the banner in the Childress dinner-dance scene). Therefore, these sideline relationships are fairly significant... if only for their duration.  The fact that Ennis seems to only be mentioning Cassie for the first time during the final camping trip, when Jack asks him if he'd ever get married again... always seems a bit odd to me.



Yep, sure enough... great TOTW!

  The timeline also made my go HUNH. Not the first times I saw the movie though, because I never noticed the clues ( such as the banner) and just assumed that Ennis´s and Cassie´s relationship didn´t go on for very long. It wasn´t until after I had read the shortstory, and someone pointed it out to me in a discussion.

I agree that in the movie, Cassie´s and Ennis´s relationship don´t feel "old".


The only other thing that ever made me go HUNH was the first time I saw FNIT. First they were just sleeping and then suddenly...holy...
 

[Front-Ranger]

The only other thing that ever made me go HUNH was the first time I saw FNIT. First they were just sleeping and then suddenly...holy...
 

That's exactly what I said to myself back in October of 1997 when I was reading the story for the first time!! I even thought, maybe I should put this issue down and not read any farther? But I decided to soldier on and am I ever glad I did!!