Author Topic: Women at risk  (Read 9691 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 08:13:42 pm »
I am outraged about the attack on Greg Mortensen and his Central Asia Institute by 60 Minutes and Jon Krakauer. I have followed the CAI closely and they are as upright as an organization operating in that region can be. It will be a tragedy if the girls of this region are deprived of education just so 60 Minutes can juice their ratings.

But are the charges true?  The IRS reports they've only filed 1 return in 14 years.  If true, and it's a matter of public record, isn't it? that by itself is highly suspicious.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 09:09:58 pm »
But are the charges true?  The IRS reports they've only filed 1 return in 14 years.  If true, and it's a matter of public record, isn't it? that by itself is highly suspicious.

It was reported on the NBC network news this evening that Mortensen's publisher will be looking into allegations that all is not as it seems in his book.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 09:15:04 pm »
That's what Herbert is getting at by saying violence against women is "not only a staple in the news, but a cornerstone of the nation's entertainment."

You could, I think, make a case that violence against women has been a cornerstone of entertainment in Western culture since Ancient Greece (think Perseus rescuing Andromeda--after slaying Medusa, who was a monster but who was also female, or Zeus raping Europa, for example). Hollywood even has a name for the genre, "Woman in Jep" (as in jeopardy).
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 10:11:55 pm »
But are the charges true?  The IRS reports they've only filed 1 return in 14 years.  If true, and it's a matter of public record, isn't it? that by itself is highly suspicious.

I can't answer that. But I can say that the IRS doesn't comment on these things. How many times have you read in the newspaper about your tax payments?
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 02:40:07 am »
I just discovered this thread thanks to recent posts appearing on the Bettermost homepage. My response is a couple years late, but this topic is evergreen.

Misogyny is so ingrained in society - from religion to politics to domestic life - that it's somehow seen as 'natural'.

Correct. But misogyny is just as ingrained as is misandry. And in the post-modern era, misandry has taken on new dimensions and forms of expression. For example, 3 years ago, my man David went for a job interview at a local waste management company. This face-to-face interview was the result having passed 2 telephone interviews: 1 with the HR manager, and 1 with the hiring manager. The HR manager was a middle-aged white woman. David is a middle-aged white man. She actually had the nerve to ask David if he would have a problem working women or with blacks!!!

This illustrates layers of stereotyping on her part: male stereotypes, white stereotypes, and age stereotypes.

I could go on and on citing examples of misandry in society, the media, academia, the workforce, etc. but that would be of little value

Women are the more numerous sex in the world, comprising over 50% of the population and women are the physically weaker sex so if there is any violence in the world at any time women are always in the line of fire.  

I'm not sure what you mean by "the line of fire," but in war, in terrorism, in ethnic unrest, in gang violence, etc. women and men are at equal risk. All of these forms of violence are mostly indiscriminate regarding targets, and 100% indiscriminate when it comes to collateral damage

Not sure what we can do about men's aggression.  

Back in the good ol' days, we used to know exactly how to handle male aggression. Our fathers and other men in our families and communities used to teach us how to manage it, and how to use it constructively. For example: if someone hits you, you hit them back. "Fight fire with fire." You didn't go grab a gun and shoot someone just because they insulted you. Back in the day, the "man rules" had plenty to say about aggression, and if a man transgressed, his masculinity was questioned or diminished. Now that all the "man rules" have been de-valued, much control over aggression has been lost.  

they're aggressive and competitive against their own sex as well.

Competition can, has, and continues to take healthy forms that inspire men (and women) to strive for excellence. Certainly there are unhealthy forms of competition. The idea is to promote the healthy forms, and discourage the unhealthy ones. Same goes for aggression.

Always anxious to prove their masculinity and if they know they can't win in aggression against other men, they take it out on women.  The recent killer in the article is basically one of those - he tied his masculinity to having as many sex partners as he wanted.  And when his social skills did not prove up to the task - and having never considered prostitutes, I guess he wanted to get it for free - he didn't internalize the failing as his own because that also would threaten his masculinity.  So it had to be someone else's fault - women in particular.  

That describes men with specific mental illnesses and psychological dysfuntions. It does not accurately describe men in general.

The social definition of masculinity has to change in order for these types of men to be spotted and rooted out.  So long as society equates masculinity with power, aggression, control and sexual prowess, nothing is going to change.

I could not disagree more. As Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "A nation or civilization that continues to produce soft-minded men purchases its own spiritual death on the installment plan." The problem is not with the qualities you listed, but rather with how an individual might express them.

Strength is the core of masculinity. Without it, there is no masculinity, and no value in males.

Aggression is a constant of masculinity, and can be an incredibly useful tool whan managed properly.

Control is a virtue, and it begins with self.

Sexual prowess is essential for the continuation of any species, and important for the well-being of the individual.

But that is not the whole story of masculinity. There are other important qualities that ride alongside the ones you mention above.

Honor

Respect

Loyalty

Discretion

Confidence

Humility

Integrity

Dignity


All of these play into masculinity. Assessing the abundance or lack of these qualities is how society decides how manly a man is.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 09:10:10 am »
I can't answer that. But I can say that the IRS doesn't comment on these things. How many times have you read in the newspaper about your tax payments?

Ah, but we're not taking other people's money to build schools in Afghanistan. I'm sorry, but I think that's a false comparison, to compare the tax returns of an individual to those of a charitable organization. And it always does make the news when individual celebrities screw up on their taxes big time (think: Willie Nelson, for example).
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 10:13:23 am »
Jeff, I concede that you are right about this. It may be quite true that the IRS would publish information about a charitable organization. I will look into this and see if there are facts behind the accusations.

Meanwhile, Jon Krakauer has made the first chapters of his forthcoming book Three Cups of Deceit available online. I respect his work although I don't think much of 60 Minutes after a company I worked for went under their warped microscope. More later as this story unfolds.

Meanwhile those who will suffer are the girls whose education will be cut off. They and their families are the ones at risk.
May 2019 be better for us all.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 10:44:54 am »
Meanwhile those who will suffer are the girls whose education will be cut off. They and their families are the ones at risk.

That is, indeed, very sad and distressing.  :(
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 09:20:48 pm »
I just discovered this thread thanks to recent posts appearing on the Bettermost homepage. My response is a couple years late, but this topic is evergreen.

Correct. But misogyny is just as ingrained as is misandry. And in the post-modern era, misandry has taken on new dimensions and forms of expression. For example, 3 years ago, my man David went for a job interview at a local waste management company. This face-to-face interview was the result having passed 2 telephone interviews: 1 with the HR manager, and 1 with the hiring manager. The HR manager was a middle-aged white woman. David is a middle-aged white man. She actually had the nerve to ask David if he would have a problem working women or with blacks!!!

This illustrates layers of stereotyping on her part: male stereotypes, white stereotypes, and age stereotypes.

But why do you think she was asking?  Because of misogyny, many men DO have a problem with women as authority figures over them.  If there wasn't a problem, she wouldn't have had to ask.


Quote
Back in the good ol' days, we used to know exactly how to handle male aggression. Our fathers and other men in our families and communities used to teach us how to manage it, and how to use it constructively. For example: if someone hits you, you hit them back. "Fight fire with fire." You didn't go grab a gun and shoot someone just because they insulted you. Back in the day, the "man rules" had plenty to say about aggression, and if a man transgressed, his masculinity was questioned or diminished. Now that all the "man rules" have been de-valued, much control over aggression has been lost.

But I see that as masculinity pushed to the brink.  NO ONE wants to be shown up.  That's the male ego right there.  Before, men had to accept being a loser, being weaker, being beaten.  Men's aggression drove them to weapons.  Now, if they get beat up in a fair fight, they don't lick their wounds and go home and bear the brunt of a lower status because they weren't top dog.  They grab a gun and immediately return to kill the other so they can regain status.  

Quote
Competition can, has, and continues to take healthy forms that inspire men (and women) to strive for excellence. Certainly there are unhealthy forms of competition. The idea is to promote the healthy forms, and discourage the unhealthy ones. Same goes for aggression.

Sure, but cooperation works just as well.

Quote
That describes men with specific mental illnesses and psychological dysfuntions. It does not accurately describe men in general.

Or it could describe men with a great fear of being psychologically emasculated by situations.

Quote
I could not disagree more. As Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "A nation or civilization that continues to produce soft-minded men purchases its own spiritual death on the installment plan." The problem is not with the qualities you listed, but rather with how an individual might express them.

As I pointed out, cooperation works just as well'.  Martin Luther King, Jr, was talking about soft MINDS.  Since when is handling something cooperatively and in the spirit of peace, soft-minded?

Quote
Strength is the core of masculinity. Without it, there is no masculinity, and no value in males.

Aggression is a constant of masculinity, and can be an incredibly useful tool whan managed properly.

Control is a virtue, and it begins with self.

Sexual prowess is essential for the continuation of any species, and important for the well-being of the individual.

But that is not the whole story of masculinity. There are other important qualities that ride alongside the ones you mention above.

Honor

Respect

Loyalty

Discretion

Confidence

Humility

Integrity

Dignity


All of these play into masculinity. Assessing the abundance or lack of these qualities is how society decides how manly a man is.


But all of these are attributes of women as well.  Now what do you say about their role in masculinity?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Women at risk
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 09:29:41 pm »
I think we may be veering somewhat off-topic.  This thread doesn't need to spiral off into another endless debate about gender roles, attributes or stereotypes.  I'm clearly one who clearly believes that gender is completely fluid and people born male and people born female pick up both masculine and feminine qualities.  And individuals express those qualities as they see fit.  I think few people really want to be painted into a gendered box.

The constant equation of femininity (as it manifests in both males and females ) with weakness is a form of misogyny... so that may be somewhat relevant here.

But, I think there are other threads here at BetterMost where the more general discussions of gender roles and gender identifications can and have been discussed at length.

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