Timeline for the film & story

[Adiabatic]

-

[2robots4u]

Hi, goadra...nice piece of complilation, and I agree with most of it.  But this film created some ambiguous circumstances that make us really stop and think about when something happened.  In so doing, we find a later reference to be off, which makes others off. I'm still trying to figure it out myself.  But still, you did a great job...Doug

[serious crayons]

Nice work, Barbara!

Some people have questioned the possibility of Jack having an eight-month-old baby by the time of the reunion, and it does seem unlikely.

But the part of the timeline I have the most trouble with is the end. How is it possible that Ennis has been dating Cassie for four years and yet so casually mentions her for the first time on their last night? Either he would have casually mentioned her years before, or he would keep her a secret entirely. It's just hard to imagine him saying, "I've been putting the blocks to a good-looking gal in Riverton for the past four years."

Jack has presumably been seeing Randall for about as long (we don't know that they got together immediately after the charity dance, but I can't imagine they would have waited years). Though he actually IS keeping Randall a secret, so the same argument doesn't quite apply.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Nice work, Barbara!

Some people have questioned the possibility of Jack having an eight-month-old baby by the time of the reunion, and it does seem unlikely.

But the part of the timeline I have the most trouble with is the end. How is it possible that Ennis has been dating Cassie for four years and yet so casually mentions her for the first time on their last night? Either he would have casually mentioned her years before, or he would keep her a secret entirely. It's just hard to imagine him saying, "I've been putting the blocks to a good-looking gal in Riverton for the past four years."

Jack has presumably been seeing Randall for about as long (we don't know that they got together immediately after the charity dance, but I can't imagine they would have waited years). Though he actually IS keeping Randall a secret, so the same argument doesn't quite apply.

In the film it is not clear what year Jack had meant Lureen, It actually could have been as early as 1964.

From the way the speak at the last campout, I don't think Ennis and Cassie have been an item  since after the previous campout.

[Brown Eyes]

1984 - Final scene with Ennis and Alma Jr., the reversed shirts. Alma Jr. is 19; her marriage is set for June 5. (One person noted: “In the final scene, we’re told Ennis ‘takes out a half-empty bottle of cheap white wine, a legacy of Cassie.’ This is in 1984. Ennis and Cassie broke up in 1981. That wine has been in the fridge a mighty long time.”)

That's hilarious about the wine. 

I think it's further evidence that the filmmakers (and maybe even Proulx... but she hardly mentions the Cassie character at all...) didn't think through all the intricacies of the secondary relationships as thoroughly as the Jack/ Ennis relationship. 

[dly64]

OMG!! This damn timeline! 

But the part of the timeline I have the most trouble with is the end. How is it possible that Ennis has been dating Cassie for four years and yet so casually mentions her for the first time on their last night? Either he would have casually mentioned her years before, or he would keep her a secret entirely. It's just hard to imagine him saying, "I've been putting the blocks to a good-looking gal in Riverton for the past four years."

That is my biggest issue, too. But there are plenty of other things ...

Jack meets Lureen July 1966. He reunites with Ennis September 1967. He has an eight month old?

Someone else mentioned the wine bottle in Ennis' icebox .... several years after he has split with Cassie?

The lake scene .... Ennis is still talking about child support. But if Alma, Jr. is 19 and Jenny is almost 18, why is he making such a point about it?

I just can't focus on the timeline very much. It drives me batty! 

[jpwagoneer1964]

OMG!! This damn timeline! 

 

Jack meets Lureen July 1966. He reunites with Ennis September 1967. He has an eight month old?
 

The sign on the rodeo announcerd box says August but in the full screen edit, no year.

[2robots4u]

dly64..I pickup up somewhere that your name is Diane; if not, please correct me.

At the time Ennis mentions child support I believe Jr. is only 17.
I believe Jack and Lureen meet in Aug 1965.  The month is shown on the announcer's stand says Aug but no year.  Therefore, when Jack and Ennis reunite in Sep 1967, Jack's baby could be 8 months.

Yes, the timeline drives all of us batty!

Doug

[dly64]

At the time Ennis mentions child support I believe Jr. is only 17.
I believe Jack and Lureen meet in Aug 1965.  The month is shown on the announcer's stand says Aug but no year.  Therefore, when Jack and Ennis reunite in Sep 1967, Jack's baby could be 8 months.

Yes, the timeline drives all of us batty!

Doug ... yep, my name is Diane. Just call me that ... way easier than "dly64" ...

Anyway, my assumption about Lureen and Jack meeting in 1966 is because we first see Alma and Ennis on the 4th of July, 1966. So, even if it says August, I can surmise that it would be 1966 ... meaning even fewer months to have an 8 month old! 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think it's further evidence that the filmmakers (and maybe even Proulx... but she hardly mentions the Cassie character at all...) didn't think through all the intricacies of the secondary relationships as thoroughly as the Jack/ Ennis relationship. 

Annie Proulx was, apparently, a little careless, at least with the ages of the children. She clearly says that Alma, Jr., was born in September 1964. She places Ennis and Jack's final rendezvous in May 1983. Yet during the course of her description of that camping trip, before the confrontation, she describes Alma, Jr., as "a shy seventeen-year-old." Yes, well, if she had been born in September 1964, in May of 1983 she would have been 18-going-on-19, not 17.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Doug ... yep, my name is Diane. Just call me that ... way easier than "dly64" ...

Anyway, my assumption about Lureen and Jack meeting in 1966 is because we first see Alma and Ennis on the 4th of July, 1966. So, even if it says August, I can surmise that it would be 1966 ... meaning even fewer months to have an 8 month old! 

I think in giving the stories of our boys lives the authers focused on one for a certian period and then backtracked time wise to the tell the other

[Brown Eyes]

I think there are two "types" of timelines that cause issues in BBM. One type is just the sequence of years.  Or the broad picture of what happened year by year.  And the other type is a really specific calendar... day by day types of questions.  I remember somewhere (I have no memory of where) there's a thread about phases of the moon on Brokeback so that we could try to figure out the timeline of what was going on specifically in the '63 summer.  When was TS1?  When did the happy tussle really happen?  It was very, very detailed.  These types of details would be helpful in terms of questions about Jack's marriage to Lureen and the birth of Bobby.  I remember someone back on TOB (and occasionally re-stated here at BetterMost) suggested that she was already pregnant when she met Jack.  Which somehow to me really seems plausible.  Anyway, a precise timeline might help here a bit too. 

[nakymaton]

And the other type is a really specific calendar... day by day types of questions.  I remember somewhere (I have no memory of where) there's a thread about phases of the moon on Brokeback so that we could try to figure out the timeline of what was going on specifically in the '63 summer.

Most people here assume that Ennis and Jack went into the mountains in May, and TS1 was the night of the full moon in June. That timeline drives me batty, personally, because I think there would have been too much snow up around treeline in May. So I came up with a timeline that made sense to me: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2566.msg41239#msg41239

Mel

[jpwagoneer1964]

I think there are two "types" of timelines that cause issues in BBM. One type is just the sequence of years.  Or the broad picture of what happend year by year.  And the other type is a really specific calendar... day by day types of questions.  I remember somewhere (I have no memory of where) there's a thread about phases of the moon on Brokeback so that we could try to figure out the timeline of what was going on specifically in the '63 summer.  When was TS1?  When did the happy tussle really happen?  It was very, very detailed.  These types of details would be helpful in terms of questions about Jack's marriage to Lureen and the birth of Bobby.  I remember someone back on TOB (and occasionally re-stated here at BetterMost) suggested that she was already pregnant when she met Jack.  Which somehow to me really seems plausible.  Anyway, a precise timeline might help here a bit too. 

I think the happy tussle was 4-6 weeks after SNIT.

[fernly]

Most people here assume that Ennis and Jack went into the mountains in May, and TS1 was the night of the full moon in June. That timeline drives me batty, personally, because I think there would have been too much snow up around treeline in May. So I came up with a timeline that made sense to me: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2566.msg41239#msg41239

Mel

Mel, somehow I missed that thread the first time around. Thank you for posting the link!

[delalluvia]

Most people here assume that Ennis and Jack went into the mountains in May, and TS1 was the night of the full moon in June. That timeline drives me batty, personally, because I think there would have been too much snow up around treeline in May. So I came up with a timeline that made sense to me: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2566.msg41239#msg41239

Mel

Depends on how heavy the snowfall was in the winter.  I've been hiking up in the mountains of Wyoming in June and July and one year there was no snow in June and the next year there was heavy snow on the trail in the treeline in July.

[nakymaton]

Depends on how heavy the snowfall was in the winter.  I've been hiking up in the mountains of Wyoming in June and July and one year there was no snow in June and the next year there was heavy snow on the trail in the treeline in July.

Yeah, but that's June and July -- July is high summer. The first full moon in May, 1963, was at the beginning of the month, not around Memorial Day... the beginning of May is awfully early up that high. There isn't any part of the country where I would expect treeline (and above) to be regularly free of snow at the beginning of May -- not Colorado, not New England, and certainly not Wyoming. There's a reason why trees don't grow up there.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Hey, I'm gonna have to check out Mel's time line, but I'll just throw this into the mixnow. Since it comes from the story and isn't even mentioned in the film, anyone is free to ignore it, of course, but one thing Annie has them talk about in the story is the sinking of the submarine Thresher, which is said to have happened the month before they went up the mountain. Leslie did some research and found out that the Thresher sank in April 1963, so Annie is clearly sending them up the mountain in May of that year (and certainly intentionally in the story makes their last trip into the mountains exactly 20 years later, May 1983). Maybe 1963 was a low-snow year in the Big Horns or the Wind Rivers?

[nakymaton]

I don't have the story with me right now. Does the story actually say the Thresher sunk just a month before they went up the mountain? I swear I looked at the story and there wasn't anything specific, which just says they went up the mountain later than April.

Sorry. I have it in my head that they couldn't have gone up the mountain before the end of May, and I'm still convinced that people want an early arrival for purely sappy romantic reasons.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was exactly 20 years between the first and last trips in the story, and I could believe that they could have gone up the mountain in late May. Just not before the full moon during the first week of the month. It's the IMDb full moon timeline that really annoys me.

(Why do I care about this? I have absolutely no reason to care about this. Argh.)

[Front-Ranger]

Front-Ranger to the rescue!! The story says the Thresher was lost two months earlier.

I looked in my briefcase (relinquary) for the story and I couldn't find it at first and I started to hyperventilate!!

(OT: Is it blizzarding there too??)

[Jeff Wrangler]

Sorry I forgot my usual disclaimer about working from memory here at the office.    Maybe Annie does place their conversation two months after the Thresher disaster, which would place that particular conversation some time in June, as the Thresher went down April 10, 1963. Vide:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-t/ssn593.htm

(Google is our friend. ...  )

As to the story, as opposed to the film, I'm sticking with my understanding of a May ascent, for the symmetry of the story's final confrontation taking place in May 1983.

[nakymaton]

As to the story, as opposed to the film, I'm sticking with my understanding of a May ascent, for the symmetry of the story's final confrontation taking place in May 1983.

I'll give you the 2nd half of May. Fair?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'll give you the 2nd half of May. Fair?

Seems fair enough, but I don't have "the Scripture" here with me. Don't want to agree to anything that's contrary to Scripture--  --but also recognizing that I've got a memory like Swiss cheese: Full of holes. 

[nakymaton]

Sure 'nuff.

(And Lee's gone to bring the sheep down early, so she can't confirm anything. )

[Jeff Wrangler]

Sure 'noug.

(And Lee's gone to bring the sheep down early, so she can't confirm anything. )

Guess this time of year that snow's gonna stick a helluva lot longer than an hour. ... 

[Jeff Wrangler]

OK, friends, I'm standing corrected:

I'm at home now, with the story in front of me. The relevant detail is buried in one of Annie's long run-on sentences (which is why I'm not typing out the whole sentence):

...the submarine Thresher lost two months earlier with all hands and how it must have been in the last doomed minutes...

Like I said, a memory like Swiss cheese. 

In the story the conversation that included the Thresher apparently took place the night Jack noticed Ennis washing, after they had already switched jobs.

I'm sure there must have been a discussion somewhere about when the sheep would have been taken up on the mountain, but searching isn't my strong point.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Apparently  Larry McMurtry or Diana Ossana could be bothered look up dates. June 5th 1984 ( Jr.s wedding )was a Tuesday and September 24th was a Sunday. Neither of which makes sense in the dialog. It makes much more sense that the 4 year reunion occurred mid week. "Be gone only a couple a' days...back Sunday at the latest." Although  it certainly doesn't change my opinion of the movie, this is so easy to get right.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Apparently Anne Proulx, Larry McMurtry or Diana Ossana could be bothered look up dates. June 5th 1984 ( Jr.s wedding )was a Tuesday and September 24th was a Sunday. Neither of which makes sense in the dialog. It makes much more sense that the 4 year reunion occurred mid week. "Be gone only a couple a' days...back Sunday at the latest." Although  it certainly doesn't change my opinion of the movie, this is so easy to get right.

September 24, 1967, doesn't make sense, but remember that Annie Proulx's "24th" was June 24, 1967, which was a Saturday.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I stand corrected, I did check the story but didn't look past the day.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I stand corrected, I did check the story but didn't look past the day.

But your point is well taken as far as the film is concerned.