gay vikings- could it be true...

[milomorris]

it's all been said by the press reviews of Jack Donovan's 'manifesto.' That new male pride the Androphiliac crowing about?  it's called the closet.

That is 100% incorrect. Jack never advocated, nor does he advocate staying in, or going back into the closet. That is a personal choice that he leaves up to the individual. Nor has he said anything about lying about the details of one's sexual practices. Read the book before you make such wild accusations, or decide to listen to somebody else's lies.

[Sason]

What do women there have that women here do not??

I don't know what women have in other countries, but I can tell you some of the things
we have here in Sweden. My guess is that most of them do not exist in the US, but I could be wrong.

* Free councelling and medical advice on reproductive health till the age of 25 for both girls and boys in special youth clinics. They don't exist everywhere, but in many places.

* Unquestioned right to abortion. Counselling if you're in doubt.

* Free care during pregnancy and childbirth, for both mother and child, including all kinds of complications.

* Free child welfare centers till the age of 7, they do all kinds of checkups and give vaccinations. Referral to doctor if needed.

* Free habilitation including all technical aids if the child is handicapped. Free rebuilding of the home if needed for the child being able to live there.

* 480 days of paid maternity leave. You get 80% of your usual pay. You don't have to use all 480 days when the child is born, you have the right to use them until the age of 8. The other parent has the right to use half of those days if that's what the couple wants.

* Legal right to return to your work until the child is 3.

* 120 days/year/child of right to stay home with a sick child, till the age of 12. You get 80 % of your usual pay.

* Public day care of (mostly) good quality and reasonable prices. The less you earn, the less you pay.


This is what springs to mind off the top of my head. There is probably more.


What we don't have is

* Equaly pay. Year after year the statistics show that women still earn less than men within the same field of work.

* Equal representation where decisions are made, both in society and corporate.

* Fair trials in case of rape. Courts still  have a tendency to blame the victim.

There is more in this category too, this is what I can think of right now.

[milomorris]

I don't know what women have in other countries, but I can tell you some of the things
we have here in Sweden. My guess is that most of them do not exist in the US, but I could be wrong.

* Free councelling and medical advice on reproductive health till the age of 25 for both girls and boys in special youth clinics. They don't exist everywhere, but in many places.

* Unquestioned right to abortion. Counselling if you're in doubt.

* Free care during pregnancy and childbirth, for both mother and child, including all kinds of complications.

* Free child welfare centers till the age of 7, they do all kinds of checkups and give vaccinations. Referral to doctor if needed.

* Free habilitation including all technical aids if the child is handicapped. Free rebuilding of the home if needed for the child being able to live there.

* 480 days of paid maternity leave. You get 80% of your usual pay. You don't have to use all 480 days when the child is born, you have the right to use them until the age of 8. The other parent has the right to use half of those days if that's what the couple wants.

* Legal right to return to your work until the child is 3.

* 120 days/year/child of right to stay home with a sick child, till the age of 12. You get 80 % of your usual pay.

* Public day care of (mostly) good quality and reasonable prices. The less you earn, the less you pay.


This is what springs to mind off the top of my head. There is probably more.


What we don't have is

* Equaly pay. Year after year the statistics show that women still earn less than men within the same field of work.

* Equal representation where decisions are made, both in society and corporate.

* Fair trials in case of rape. Courts still  have a tendency to blame the victim.

There is more in this category too, this is what I can think of right now.

That's a pretty good list. As you probably know, most of the free services you listed are not free here in the US, but they're all available. Maternity leave varies from one company to the next, and like in Sweden, your company must hold your job open for you. We also have a Family Leave Act that allows workers to take time off to care for a sick child or other relative.

When it comes to equal pay, there is still a salary gap between men & women nationwide. But within any individual company, one can find equal pay. It totally depends on the company in question.

[Sason]

All of this is of course different from country to country.

There are many things in Sweden that I'm critical of,
but when it comes to having and taking care of children,
I think Sweden is one of the better countries to live in.

[milomorris]

So true, Louise.  You can dress it up all you want, and you can even admit to your attraction to men, but if you restrain who you basically are in order to fit in, then you're still in the closet.  Some may feel the need to remain in the closet, but it's hardly honorable.  And not telling the truth about who you are is dishonest, even if done out of necessity.  

That's an interesting opinion. The fact is that ALL people homo, hetero, whatever modify their public behavior to varying degrees depending on the social situation. People behave differently when they're at a black-tie gala than when they are out drinking in their favorite neighborhood bar. People put on their professional "selves" when they get to the office. Nobody gets to be "themselves" 100% of the time.

As for the closet, like I said, Jack has not commented on it one way or the other. He and I see it as a matter of personal choice. And here too one will find varying degrees of "outness." Some people are out to friends & family, but not out professionally. Some people are out to some family members, but not to others. There are just so many combinations.

Yeah, there are a lot of guys out there who would bully us into being something we're not.  These men are grotesque thugs.  They are not honorable, and giving into them is not honorable.  And a man secure in himself would not care how effeminate or masculine another man is.

I'm not trying to bully anyone into anything, and neither is Jack. We're not looking for converts. He wrote androphilia for those of us who don't fit into the orthodox gay community, and those who are new to homosexuality who might be seeking an alternative. He did not write it for those who are already entrenched in effeminacy, and enjoy that sort of thing.  This is about more than just the individual man. Its about a collective mentality and practice that is seeping out into the larger population. Many authors have written extensively about the feminization of men and American culture. Some straight men feel that this direction is chipping away at our cultural fabric too.  

Judging someone based on how effeminate they are is stupid.  And doing that is not in any way an essential element of manhood.  

You evaluate men based on your own criteria, I will evaluate men based on my own criteria. Effeminacy is a weakness, and I will take that into consideration, along with a whole host of other things, when forming my opinions about any man.

[bailey1205]

So true, Louise.  You can dress it up all you want, and you can even admit to your attraction to men, but if you restrain who you basically are in order to fit in, then you're still in the closet.  Some may feel the need to remain in the closet, but it's hardly honorable.  And not telling the truth about who you are is dishonest, even if done out of necessity.  

Yeah, there are a lot of guys out there who would bully us into being something we're not.  These men are grotesque thugs.  They are not honorable, and giving into them is not honorable.  And a man secure in himself would not care how effeminate or masculine another man is.

We need to fight homophobia, not wring out the effeminacy in gay men, or marginalize gay men "who don't act like other men in their daily lives" in the hopes of gaining acceptance.  Judging someone based on how effeminate they are is stupid.  And doing that is not in any way an essential element of manhood.  It's about bullies trying to get one up on their fellow men -- as well as women, BTW -- by way of intimidation.  These assholes need to be knocked down a peg or two, not appeased.  Being a dumbass ape is not the same thing as being a man.  It really is too bad some have internalized the homophobia in our society to such a degree that they confuse the two.

Oh, I'm betting these guys that think they are big ole butch gay guys, who think they are 'passing', really ain't.
 

That is what is so hilarious to me.

[brokeplex]

I don't know what women have in other countries, but I can tell you some of the things
we have here in Sweden. My guess is that most of them do not exist in the US, but I could be wrong.
* Unquestioned right to abortion. Counselling if you're in doubt.

so, is what you are describing in Sweden "abortion on demand"?

[brokeplex]

You can dress it up all you want, and you can even admit to your attraction to men, but if you restrain who you basically are in order to fit in, then you're still in the closet.  Some may feel the need to remain in the closet, but it's hardly honorable.  And not telling the truth about who you are is dishonest, even if done out of necessity.  

I don't feel particularly drawn to the Androphile movement, and don't feel compelled to defend it. But, I question any labelling the goals of the movement or its sympathizers as encouraging men to remain in closets or to become dishonest about themselves. Leading an honorable life is quite a bit more complicated than effectively wearing a sign around one's neck announcing one's sexual orientation. In my experience, most people live in glass houses anyway, and most of the people they come in contact with understand their orientations and just wink at it.

The issue is - what is the advantage of disadvantage of openly and loudly demanding acceptance and acknowledgement. I happen to be in favor of ss marriage and of hate crime laws being extended to "sexual minorities" (to use the current terminology of the PC left), but I see nothing dishonorable about a homosexual man refraining from loudly supporting changes in the law, if he is comfortable in his own life. 

[brokeplex]

Oh, I'm betting these guys that think they are big ole butch gay guys, who think they are 'passing', really ain't.
 
That is what is so hilarious to me.

To a certain degree, you are correct. I think that we all live in glass houses and no amount of posturing will change much.

But I can't entirely share your laughter, as there is often real pain behind the glass wall that most can't readily see. One of the outstanding achievements of Brokeback Mountain is that some of that pain was shared with the general population. Perhaps the empathy that so many Brokies have extended to "Ennis" and "Jack" could also be extended to real men who live in our real world and who still find it difficult to get beyond the glass wall.

[bailey1205]

To a certain degree, you are correct. I think that we all live in glass houses and no amount of posturing will change much.

But I can't entirely share your laughter, as there is often real pain behind the glass wall that most can't readily see. One of the outstanding achievements of Brokeback Mountain is that some of that pain was shared with the general population. Perhaps the empathy that so many Brokies have extended to "Ennis" and "Jack" could also be extended to real men who live in our real world and who still find it difficult to get beyond the glass wall.

That would be a lot easier for some to do if, those that are behind the glass wall did not proclaim, relentlessy on here,that feminine gays are inferior to them.

And, they have done that.