Author Topic: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17  (Read 84350 times)

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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2007, 08:05:51 pm »
I searched on coffeepot over on DC and I was disappointed to find no insights similar to ours, only many references to Ennis's quote during the lake scene.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2007, 12:26:57 am »
I love the symbolism stuff, and well maybe some of it is a little excess, but so what?
It is fun, but I do wonder about it all, how much was really intentional?
I suppose it really doesn't matter, but it is all there.

Hi Marlb! Well, some of us sure do think it's all or at least mostly there and all or at least mostly intentional. Not only that, but I'd go so far as to say there's more there that we haven't yet uncovered or talked about. The symbolism in BBM is complex and subtle, but if you suspend judgement and are open to looking closely, it becomes so clear you'll know it couldn't be accidental. Not everybody is interested in doing that, which is fine -- it's not like you can't enjoy the movie without it (obviously!  :)). But for those of us who do, it enriches our experience of the movie immeasurably.

If you're interested, here are a couple of excellent threads about symbolism:

This one, initiated by Front-Ranger, is called "On buckets, eagles, impatience, and ..."
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0.html

Here's one called "Black hats, white hats," started by ednbarby:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1266.0.html

Offline Cameron

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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2007, 09:10:13 pm »
Thanks Katherine,

I will read those the whole threads when I have the time.

I think it is true that some are still to be dixovered or at least talked about.

It is amazing now that I watched it so many times, how many new things I see, now that I can focus more on it and less on the words.

Like it just hit me yesterday, the lamp next to Ennis when he was waiting for Jack during the reunion sequence, how much it looks like the buckets.

And I do wonder about the kniife set in the trailer, and the fan on the bed.  Okay that one may be a little obvious, but it had to be intentional.

And the headlights, and you know what, this may sound really over the top, but did you notice at times the sheep sound like crying children?

Yes, I am serious, they do ;D ;D ;D



Offline Cameron

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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #133 on: February 18, 2007, 04:11:41 pm »
I noticed this last night, and I know that some of you are going to think I went off the deep end, but I am serious.  I did see this.

During the shot of the sheep between TS1 and TS2, almost all of the sheep are moving towards the right.

But in the middle of the screen, are two tallish sheep that are just standing there, not moving,  pointed to the left.

Many of the sheep were computer generated, weren't they?  So I would think it did not just happen, but was intentional.

I mean the symbolism is perfect, two sheep going against the masses and society, towards the left!

I know it sounds silly but it is there. :D



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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #134 on: February 18, 2007, 04:28:29 pm »
Interesting, marlb! Say did you see the poster for the Dutch play of Brokeback Mountain which shows a lamb being carried by a shirtless man? The Dutch seem to share your viewpoint that the sheep make for a powerful symbol. I don't think we have a sheep thread yet. Why don't you start one? I would be interested in reading it!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Cameron

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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2007, 12:54:49 am »
I saw the poster, real interesting and I liked it a lot.

I really do believe that the sheep are real important.  Next time I watch, I will take note of all the interesting sheep details and post them.

I am glad you sort of agree.

This is serious :D



moremojo

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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #136 on: February 20, 2007, 06:47:43 pm »
I really do believe that the sheep are real important.
Proulx was very deliberate in making Ennis and Jack sheepherders and not cowboys (i.e., men who are working with cattle). The sheep are important, though some of their import remains mysterious (they have been neglected to a large degree in our various analyses). It might be of interest that most of 1967, when Jack and Ennis reunited, was the lunar Year of the Sheep according to Chinese astrology. Also, both men very possibly were born in 1943 ("not yet twenty" when they first meet in 1963), and most of that year was likewise the Chinese Year of the Sheep.

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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #137 on: February 21, 2007, 01:19:04 am »
I can second that, Scott. I heard Annie say in person, "If I had wanted them to be cowboys, I wouldn't have put them to work herding sheep." This was at a literary conference in Casper, Wyoming.

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #138 on: February 21, 2007, 10:21:14 pm »
Well, some of you know I have a complex theory about the sheep and their symbolism relative to both Jack and Ennis and the whole idea of "sacrificial lambs."  I think sheep function in very specific ways (at least in the movie... a lot of their importance I think comes from visual cues that we don't experience in the written text of the story).  I'll briefly summarize...  The only visions of bloody violence that we're shown in the film are the gory death of the sheep after TS1 and the brutal image of Earl's mutilated body and then later Ennis's vision of what Jack's death might have been like.  To me the sheep that Ennis sees after losing his virginity upon first-viewing of the film seems like an overdetermined symbol of loss of virginity, but after we know about the Earl story the mutilated sheep in hindsight seems much more like an ominous warning (from Ennis's perspective).  The dead sheep may activate some of his old fears.  Jack frequently seems to be juxtaposed with lambs and sheep (I'm thinking particularly of the moment where he's holding a lamb across his lap and tending to something in its hoof... and then also right after Ennis sees the dead sheep there's a quick cut to Jack naked by the stream).  My theory is that sheep come to symbolize Jack (and gay men more generally) and Ennis's sense of duty to protecting the sheep becomes very, very important.  He won't shoot the sheep for food and he's adament that they're responsible for guarding the sheep.  He takes this very seriously.  The sheep might not function in the same way from Jack's perspective because he does not have the Earl scenario as part of his world-view.  It's not a part of his worries in the same way that it is for Ennis.

I also have a complex theory about the identity of Jack and Ennis as cowboys (in the film... again, some of this is visual and not communicated in Annie's actual text).  Ennis is shown to be a cowboy in the film.  We see him working with cows and he talks about the heifers calving.  He's literally a cowboy during much of his life in Riverton.  Jack loses any true claim to being a cowboy (either through ranch work or through rodeoing) by the time the Reunion happens.  Being a cowboy becomes nostalgic and part of Jack's fantasy as early as the "prayer of thanks" camping trip.  He proposes the "cow and calf operation" as part of his ideal scenario of living with Ennis.  But Ennis already works for a cow and calf operation... we know this because of the grocery scene.  The cow and calf operation is grunt work and part of Ennis's daily experience.  Jack maintains an image of a cowboy through his hats and the clothes that he wears.  And we know he maintainis the cowboy idea as an ideal and probably had since childhood.  I think this is one reason why the little cowboy toy in his childhood room is so poignant when Ennis finds it.  He'd been dreaming of cowboys since he was very young.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 10:24:55 pm by atz75 »
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Re: P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2007, 01:59:50 pm »
I was reading Adam's prop book for the movie today, and it does call for the numbers 1 and 7 to be used in the mailbox scene. What's more, the prop book says that Ennis throws the other numbers into the big garbage can outside his trailer door when he's finished. That, to me, is also very significant!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"