getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)

[Front-Ranger]

Actually, people come to the point rather quickly...it's pretty incredible!!

Happy T-day, naky and everybody.

[mlewisusc]

So I finally got to read most of this thread.  A topic I loved to death on old Pierre T.  Jeff W and I had many an interesting discussion regarding Story Ennis and Jack vs. Film Ennis and Jack.  Many things I would love to reply to here, but I only have time for one, a question to everyone and especially to Jeff, as follows: when Story Ennis says to Jack in the motel that he ". . .like(s) doin it with women, yeah . . . " is he lying?  To himself?  To Jack?  Honest?  This goes back to an old argument as well (generally debunked) that Ennis was only "queer" for Jack.  Let's see if I can put in the quote I want, as follows:

Plus, I think Ennis is still figuring out his sexuality here. That's how I interpret this paragraph:

Quote (from Jeff W)
Ennis pulled Jack's hand to his mouth, took a hit from the cigarette, exhaled. "Sure as hell seem in one piece to me. You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was--? I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?

Look at that "right?" after "here we both got wives and kids." At this point in the story Ennis is still questioning his sexual orientation--clinging to the notion that having a wife and children means he's not queer. I understand Jack was probably afraid to be honest with Ennis here, but if he had been honest about having sex with other guys in those four years apart from Ennis, it might have helped Ennis come to terms with his own sexuality.

Could Story Ennis be truly bisexual?  I side with those who say that most of Film Ennis's issues arise from his struggle against his sexuality.  But perhaps Story Ennis's issues arise merely from the misfortune of the only real love in his life being a man.  Story Ennis is more concerned with the consequences - physical and potentially social - that arise from a sexual relationship with Jack.  Film Ennis is concerned with the fact that he is so attracted to another man, more perhaps than the consequences.  Of course, a fact that argues against this interpretation of Story Ennis is contained in the flashback itself (and I understand from reviewing this thread that many of you have a completely different interpretation of this tidbit than I do) as follows: Jack knows that Ennis will not embrace him then face to face because Ennis did not want to know that it was Jack that he held (a paraphrase, of course).  They were alone on the mountain, unobserved (to their knowledge) and Ennis still was not other than with the sex itself - consequences were simply not part of the picture and (at least from Jack's perspective) Ennis was still reluctant.  Thus, struggling with his sexuality.

This brings up another point that I have made, but I think only on IMDB - I believe that in the Story, NOTHING like the second tent scene occurred.  I don't believe the boys kissed - ever - until the four year reunion.  Indeed, as Mel says to start this post - neither you the reader nor Story Ennis himself knew Ennis really loved Jack until the end of the story . . .

So I'm a little late coming to the party here folks, but if any one picks this up, I'd love to hear your thoughts. 

[nakymaton]

This brings up another point that I have made, but I think only on IMDB - I believe that in the Story, NOTHING like the second tent scene occurred.  I don't believe the boys kissed - ever - until the four year reunion.  Indeed, as Mel says to start this post - neither you the reader nor Story Ennis himself knew Ennis really loved Jack until the end of the story . . .

I think it's possible that (story) Jack & Ennis didn't kiss until the reunion.

On the other hand, I think it's also possible that they did, but we aren't shown those memories. Near the end of the story, we suddenly learn a lot of details that change our perception of the relationship, that show that the two men were in love, though Ennis (probably) couldn't accept it. If we had known about them kissing on the mountain, would that have changed our perception of the relationship early in the story? I think it would have... I think it would have lessened the emotional punch of those last few pages, because we would have known about the love all along.

(The movie is structured differently, and it's just as effective as the story... I've finally got over my old crankiness about the second tent scene. Though I'm still just as cranky about reading additional mushiness (*cough* "I love you" *cough*) into the movie. )

[mlewisusc]

(The movie is structured differently, and it's just as effective as the story... I've finally got over my old crankiness about the second tent scene. Though I'm still just as cranky about reading additional mushiness (*cough* "I love you" *cough*) into the movie. )

Amen!

[mlewisusc]

I think it's possible that (story) Jack & Ennis didn't kiss until the reunion.

On the other hand, I think it's also possible that they did, but we aren't shown those memories. Near the end of the story, we suddenly learn a lot of details that change our perception of the relationship, that show that the two men were in love, though Ennis (probably) couldn't accept it. If we had known about them kissing on the mountain, would that have changed our perception of the relationship early in the story? I think it would have... I think it would have lessened the emotional punch of those last few pages, because we would have known about the love all along.

(The movie is structured differently, and it's just as effective as the story... I've finally got over my old crankiness about the second tent scene. Though I'm still just as cranky about reading additional mushiness (*cough* "I love you" *cough*) into the movie. )

The item that really leads me to believe the boys in the story ONLY had sex and did not kiss prior to the reunion is the flashback to the "embrace" itself, e.g., when Jack realized Ennis wanted to neither see nor feel that it was Jack he held - thus all the affection directed at his back.  Which is interesting it its way if you also agree that in the story the boys only had "Ennis pitching/Jack receiving" sexual encounters (was that a delicate enough way of putting it?) and nothing more - perhaps throughout their entire relationship (in the story).  This could be further bolstered by Jack's thought, at the time of his flashback, that perhaps they had never progressed much farther.

On the other hand, supporting your point, they had actually got much farther - or rather, the sublime love of their lives was already in place on the mountain, and neither of them realized it until the end of the story.  Yeah, Jack did the thing with the shirts, but Ennis tried to puke up his feelings right after they separated.

Well, it's late and I'm babbling. 

[nakymaton]

The item that really leads me to believe the boys in the story ONLY had sex and did not kiss prior to the reunion is the flashback to the "embrace" itself, e.g., when Jack realized Ennis wanted to neither see nor feel that it was Jack he held - thus all the affection directed at his back.  Which is interesting it its way if you also agree that in the story the boys only had "Ennis pitching/Jack receiving" sexual encounters (was that a delicate enough way of putting it?) and nothing more - perhaps throughout their entire relationship (in the story).  This could be further bolstered by Jack's thought, at the time of his flashback, that perhaps they had never progressed much farther.

Yeah, I think the interpretation hinges on how literally you read the flashback to the dozy embrace. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held. There's the literal description, and then there's the symbolism of Ennis not wanting to "face" his feelings about Jack. It's a fascinating description from a writing perspective -- both "face" and "embrace" can mean literally looking at someone or hugging someone, or figuratively accepting something. But although Proulx uses both words in the passage, the actual description of Ennis's reluctance focuses on the literal act, rather than on the figurative implication. I think she's deliberately evoking both interpretations, but she's subtle about it. (Subtle enough to get people arguing about it!)

In the end, I don't think it matters whether they kissed on the mountain in the story or not. It's a detail that's important for fanfic writers and for people who demand exact translations of a story to a movie, but as far as artistic and emotional impact goes... I think you can believe what you want to believe.

(Edit to fix a typo.)

[Meryl]

Hi mlewis, it's great to see you back here.  Those were great discussions on the old board.  I remember you and Jeff and HobokenJeff really getting into some good ones. 

When I think about both Story and Film Ennis struggling with their sexuality, it makes me think of that old book "I'm OK, You're OK," which was based on something called transactional analysis.The author (I think it was Eric Berne) maintained that we all carry our parents around inside us, and when we do something that our parent would have disapproved of, that Inner Parent "beats" our Inner Child.  Poor Ennis!  His Dad didn't have to show up with the tire iron--he was already there inside Ennis's head, beating him up from the inside.

It's a sad thing to note, but it seems to me that because Ennis was taught--vividly--that homosexuals are contemptible, he is consumed with contempt for himself for his behavior with Jack.  He tries to deny it by thinking of it as an exception to his straight orientation, but he knows he's deserving of his Inner Parent's punishment.  His perception of himself as contemptible affects all areas of his life, and he never really succeeds at anything.  When Film Ennis tells Jack "It's because of you I'm nothin', I'm nowhere" he's articulating that in a very simple but true way.

I'm with Mel in wanting to leave the door open a crack that Story Ennis and Jack did kiss while still on the mountain.  They were both so lonely and starved for closeness.  Annie Proulx was smart not to say so, though.  And I'm in awe of how well Ang Lee managed to show the second night in the tent and still not lose the power of the last scenes.

[Penthesilea]

From mlewisisc:
I side with those who say that most of Film Ennis's issues arise from his struggle against his sexuality.  But perhaps Story Ennis's issues arise merely from the misfortune of the only real love in his life being a man.  Story Ennis is more concerned with the consequences - physical and potentially social - that arise from a sexual relationship with Jack.  Film Ennis is concerned with the fact that he is so attracted to another man, more perhaps than the consequences. 

I agree with what you said about storyEnnis and movieEnnis here (and I know I'm not the only one - Hi Katherine  ).
Story Ennis is also more able to voice his thoughts and feelings (especially in the story motel scene), which supports this train of thoughts.

I don't believe the boys kissed - ever - until the four year reunion.

I like to disagree here. I think Mel put it very good:

but as far as artistic and emotional impact goes... I think you can believe what you want to believe.

And let me quote Annie here once more before I give you my interpretation about it: "It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts."

I am sure they did kiss on Brokeback. First because they fell in love with each other. Don't matter whether Ennis, both of them or the reader realizes it at that point of he story. It was love, not sex what they found with each other. It was more than a convienient, casual and friendly f*uck. That's what the whole story is about, isn't it?

Second: They had months together.They had much opportunity to have sex, to explore things, their bodies and different kinds of being together. They were young, free and horny. I can't believe they always did just the same old in-and-out-game in the same variation all the time. From story:... let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening, in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughuing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddamn word except... And "They believed themselves invisible" Trying, exploring, experimetating. And kissing belongs to exploring each other's bodies.

Third: Even when two people are just f*uck-buddies, or have a ONS together, they very likely kiss. I think it is unlikely in genereal, to be intimate with each other, but to stay clean from kissing. Doesn't make sense.

Fourth, and to me most important: the reunion kiss. ...and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack's big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet salvia welling, ...
This should be their very first kiss? No way.

[Penthesilea]

The item that really leads me to believe the boys in the story ONLY had sex and did not kiss prior to the reunion is the flashback to the "embrace" itself, e.g., when Jack realized Ennis wanted to neither see nor feel that it was Jack he held - thus all the affection directed at his back. 

Yeah, I think the interpretation hinges on how literally you read the flashback to the dozy embrace. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held. There's the literal description, and then there's the symbolism of Ennis not wanting to "face" his feelings about Jack. It's a fascinating description from a writing perspective -- both "face" and "embrace" can mean literally looking at someone or hugging someone, or figuratively accepting something. But although Proulx uses both words in the passage, the actual description of Ennis's reluctance focuses on the literal act, rather than on the figurative implication. I think she's deliberately evoking both interpretations, but she's subtle about it. (Subtle enough to get people arguing about it!)

The dozy embrace...

It's from Jack's POV. So Jack knew Ennis wouldn't embrace him face to face then - just like Ennis knew it was the tire iron when OMT told him about the other fella (some ranch neigbour, --> Randall in the movie).
But although Ennis "knew", we know the facts about Jack's death are not definite and it's open to interpretation.
So maybe Jack "knew" it in the same way Ennis "knew".


And we don't know when the dozy embrace happened. Could have been relatively early in the summer, shortly after they came together. So maybe then Ennis wouldn't embrace him face to face, but maybe later the same summer.
Hm. I don't believe this myself. But it is a possibility.


"And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that."

Maybe this sentence does not only refer to the one directly afore (not embracing face to face), but also to the sentence before the embracing: the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their difficult and seperate lifes.
They've never come much farther to happiness, to contentment, to the sharing their lives, they never came to the sweet life (first sentence it refers to) because Ennis never came to embrace his feelings for Jack freely (second sentence it refers to).

[Front-Ranger]

Thanks, mlewis, for reviving this wonderful topic. Did they kiss? I would like to think so. After all, the stud horse strokes the neck of the mare with his after mating. Though they may not have kissed on the mouth (remember that scene in Pretty Woman "Never kiss a client on the mouth!") until the reunion. The movie showed more kissing and it seemed to me to be a more visual representation for some of the dialogue in the story.

Next question: were Ennis and/or Jack bisexual? On the surface, I would say that Ennis seemed more straightforwardly gay, since he didn't seem to get much pleasure from relations either with Alma or Cassie. Jack seemed more bisexual in that he said he liked doin it with women and was sufficiently attracted to Lureen to get lured into a relationship. But the real answer is that most people are bisexual to some degree. That's my take on it.