Author Topic: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)  (Read 150743 times)

Offline southendmd

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #310 on: January 20, 2012, 03:25:41 pm »
deserves a big bump

Offline Sason

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #311 on: January 20, 2012, 04:12:15 pm »
Paul, you inspired me to read the first post of this thread, and it's a WOW post!
Extremely insightful and well written!


Katherine asked this question ages ago, when we were discussing the brief reference to Jack's post-divorce drive ("twelve hundred miles for nothing"):

Quote
Tell me, though, why did that particular line devastate you for a week? You mean because you were haunted by the image of Jack driving all that way, full of hope, for nothing?

And I know this sounds like a book-club question, but: What do you suppose Annie's reasoning was, from a storytelling perspective, for mentioning things like the phone call and the punch in such a SEEMINGLY offhand way, long after their actual occurence?

I know it's taken me a long time to answer the question. Not four f'ing years, but long enough.

My first response is: you know, that isn't the only time in the story that important information, particularly important emotional information, comes out in an off-hand kind of way, at the end of a sentence or a paragraph that, at first glance, appears to be about something else.

The first example is in the prologue, in the first paragraph:

"...Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."

Here's this entire paragraph that's about -- what? Rural poverty, the loss of Western land to developers, and the lifestyle of a guy who's more than a little rough around the edges, peeing in the sink, hanging his clothes from a nail or something? It's not just unromantic -- it's anti-romantic.

And then, at the end of the paragraph, there's that little half-sentence. ...he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream. And there, almost hidden at the end of run-on sentences and bleak descriptions, is the most important detail in the entire prologue.

It's... well, it's a surprise, I guess. Here I, the reader, have been lulled into thinking that I understand this character and his situation, and then suddenly, in half a sentence, everything I understood is turned on its head. It's not the way I would structure, say, a scientific argument, but I think there's something powerful about forcing a sudden change in perception. It's like... I don't know, like a Zen koan, or like suddenly waking up. It draws attention to the detail that's out of place.

And it's a particularly appropriate structure for characterizing Ennis. I mean, if you didn't pay that close attention to Ennis, you might see a guy who works hard, has earned enough respect to be responsible for the keys to the ranch, but who hasn't earned enough money to own a ranch himself. And a guy who... well, he doesn't quite seem the cocktail party type, does he? But the surface appearances don't even begin to tell the story of Ennis del Mar, and the real story slips out only at the end, only if you're paying attention.

And that's not the only time that the end of a sentence or paragraph contains something unexpected, something apparently unrelated, a kind of revelation:

"They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddamn word except once Ennis said, 'I'm not no queer,' and Jack jumped in with 'Me neither. A one-shot thing. Nobody's business but ours.'"

"Years on years they worked their way through the high meadows and mountain drainages...[snip]...but never returning to Brokeback."

The whole paragraph in which Ennis and Jack talk about other affairs, but which ends with:

"Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it. Jack said he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies."

"Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back marked DECEASED."

And the sentence I was thinking about, right after it:

"He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."

I guess the structure of the whole story also hides the main point until the end. Lots of people have pointed out that, after the reunion at least, Jack and Ennis seem to talk about their attraction to each other a lot:

"'Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback that makes it so goddamn good.'"

"'Sure as hell seem in one piece to me...'"

"'...I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you.'"

"'That's one a the two things I need right now...'"

But you know what? All that time, they're talking about sex. So they seem to accept the sex, and unlike on the mountain, they even talk about it.

But the emotional depth of the relationship isn't apparent... until the flashback to the dozy embrace.

And then the offhand mention of the twelve hundred drive for nothing.

And then learning that Jack wanted his ashes spread on Brokeback Mountain, that it was "his place."

And then Old Man Twist's revelation that Jack had talked about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, at least until that last visit.

And then the description of the punch, mixed together with the discovery of the shirts.

It's like being slammed, over and over, with the realization that these weren't just two guys who enjoyed having sex with one another -- this was an incredibly profound love. And we don't learn the depth of it until Jack's dead.

I know enough about the short story form to know about O. Henry's stories, and about the way the plot always goes off in an unexpected direction at the end. I guess, in a way, Brokeback Mountain follows that form. But it isn't Jack's death that's the surprise, or at least, it isn't the biggest surprise. It's the discovery of the love we had missed noticing all along. Love, not just sex -- that's the twist.

And I think the whole story structure is part of the characterization of Ennis, as well. We're never allowed too deeply into Ennis's mind. We're allowed to see some of the events, and we're allowed to see the sex. But the love... the details that point to it are mentioned in offhand comments, as if they are pushed out of mind, until Jack's dead and the realization all comes together.

And then, going back and reading the story again, all those details that add up to the love start to stand out. Pawing the white out of the moon. The headlong, irreversible fall. Trying to puke in the whirling snow. "Little darlin." "This ain't no little thing that's happenin here." Reading the story for a second time is like dreaming with Ennis.

And those shirts were there, all along, in the second sentence of the story.


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Offline KittyKat

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #312 on: January 21, 2012, 04:51:28 pm »
I first watched BBM two weeks ago which was the first week of January 2012. It was the best movie ever made. Below are a few of the things I have noticed about the movie and would love to discuss.  


1. Ennis never talks about his siblings after the beginning of the movie. Why do you think he never mentions them again? I think they were probably homophobic like his father and Ennis wanted nothing much to do with them.  Ennis always new he was gay.

2. In the first scene Ennis carries a paper bag filled with his clothes which were his only possessions.  At the end of the movie Jack's mom puts the infamous shirts in a paper bag.  Any significance of the paper bags? Poverty?

3. When Ennis and Jack first start to herd the sheep up the mountain on horseback Jack is holding a baby lamb in his arms and looks back at Ennis. Ennis has his lamb wrapped up in a blanket and it rode on the side of the horse. I see this as Jack wearing his emotions out in the open and Ennis burying his inside.

4. At Jack's parents house Ennis allows himself to open up. He talks a lot.  Although he is heartbroken about Jack's death he seems to be relaxed around Jack's parents. (Jack's mom anyway).  He says "On no ma'am I could not eat any cake right now. Just coffee for me" and "You don't know how bad I feel about Jack. Me and Jack knew each other for a long time. We were very close." "Yes ma'am I would like that very much" when asked to see Jack's room upstairs. I think he was just as comfortable talking to Jack's mom as he was talking to his own daughter(s). Maybe more. I definitely see him and Jack's mom developing a great relationship over the years. Maybe Jack's father will die soon.

5. Windows obviously have something to do with the story. But what? I can't figure it out. Any thoughts?

6. While Jack is standing on a combine doing a sales pitch a man comes into the office and asks Jack's father-in-law, "Is that the cowboy who used to rides bulls?" The father- in-law replies "he tried to".  Jack had a reputation during his bull riding days of being gay and that man might have known. He probably told the father-in-law and they both plotted to have Jack killed. Even though the father-in-law died before Jack I think he had something to do with his death. When Lurleen is describing Jack's death to Ennis I find it interesting that she describes every wretched second of it in detail. "He was changing a tire.... drowned in his own blood before anyone found him", etc. As if that was what she was instructed to say about Jack's death. Sounds too scripted. Did she know a deep dark secret about Jack's death?  I know it's kind of morbid. Just an observation.

7. When Jack is desperately looking for his blue parka Lurleen is ignoring his concern about the parka and talks about other things. Maybe she hid the parka just to annoy Jack. She knew having to look for it would delay his trip to see the love of his life.

8. Fishing. Fishing. Fishing.  Ennis told Alma that they were fishing buddies. He took his fishing gear with him on each trip. Why did they never fish? There were many  streams, rivers and lakes they could have fished in. Who doesn't love fresh fish? Did they hate their real lives that much? Did they did not want to even bring up fishing because they had talked to their wives about fishing?

9. While arguing with Jack once about having a life together Ennis sarcastically says, "Lets get Alma and Lurleen to adopt my girls and then we could be free to live a life together and do what we want." Maybe Ennis fantasized about that often. Maybe Ennis was subconsciously sorry he even married Alma that November after Brokeback. When Ennis shed a tear at the divorce I think he was more upset about having to pay child support. This would financially keep him from seeing Jack as often as he wanted.

10. When Ennis read that Jack had died he immediately went to the phone booth across the street to call Lurleen. How did he know the number? Did he have it memorized? Did he carry it with him in his wallet? I thought that it was very touching that he had Jack's number all this time but could never call Jack.

11. THE HATS. Perhaps the biggest elephant in the room. Being from Texas I know that in the winter you are supposed to wear a black hat. In the summer you are supposed to wear a white or straw hat. Did Ang make them wear different colored hats throughout the movie to make it easy to figure out who was who? Especially during the scenes when they were far off in the vast landscape. Or do the different colored hats symbolize role reversal?

I see Jack as being the "male" and Ennis being the "female" in the relationship. However the story shows that there really were no "roles". They loved each other unconditionally and would do anything for one another. You see Jack doing Ennis's laundry. You see Ennis diligently cooking for Jack. Ennis helped Jack carry the large log and offered to trade places with him to sleep with the sheep. Ennis shot the elk because the groceries were destroyed and Jack wanted to eat some meat. Jack ran over to Ennis to comfort him when he came to the camp with a bleeding head. Jack took off his bandana and dipped it in hot water to help clean the wound, etc.

The beauty of the story is that love has no bounds. Love cannot be conformed to "roles". Love cannot be restricted to the way society says it has to be.  Aquirre, Jack's father-in-law and Jack's father lived their lives strictly as "society" told them to live. Without an original thought. Without an open mind.  Were they happy? Did you once see a smile on their faces? Were they three people you would like to hang out with?

The irony is that Jack and Ennis gave up a life together to be accepted by people like that.  You can't make unhappy and ignorant people approve of you.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 06:30:57 pm by KittyKat »
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #313 on: February 08, 2015, 05:56:43 pm »
Isn't this a wonderful thread started by our old friend nakymaton? I miss him/her. And pity that we didn't answer kittycat's questions! Well, better late than never.

I first watched BBM two weeks ago which was the first week of January 2012. It was the best movie ever made. Below are a few of the things I have noticed about the movie and would love to discuss.  
1. Ennis never talks about his siblings after the beginning of the movie. Why do you think he never mentions them again? I think they were probably homophobic like his father and Ennis wanted nothing much to do with them.  Ennis always new he was gay.
True, I'm sure he knew from an early age that he was different. In the story, there is a bit more about his brother. He got tired of being bullied by his brother, so he beat him up one day, on the recommendation of his tyrant of a father.

2. In the first scene Ennis carries a paper bag filled with his clothes which were his only possessions.  At the end of the movie Jack's mom puts the infamous shirts in a paper bag.  Any significance of the paper bags? Poverty?
Yes, and it's related in a way to his comment that "if you don't have nothing, you don't need nothing" (when his daughter told him he needed more furniture). It's also related to his expectations in life, which were not high. It also suggests his vulnerability...a paper bag does not protect its contents well.

3. When Ennis and Jack first start to herd the sheep up the mountain on horseback Jack is holding a baby lamb in his arms and looks back at Ennis. Ennis has his lamb wrapped up in a blanket and it rode on the side of the horse. I see this as Jack wearing his emotions out in the open and Ennis burying his inside.
I never noticed that before Kittycat. You are undoubtedly right!

4. At Jack's parents house Ennis allows himself to open up. He talks a lot.  Although he is heartbroken about Jack's death he seems to be relaxed around Jack's parents. (Jack's mom anyway).  He says "On no ma'am I could not eat any cake right now. Just coffee for me" and "You don't know how bad I feel about Jack. Me and Jack knew each other for a long time. We were very close." "Yes ma'am I would like that very much" when asked to see Jack's room upstairs. I think he was just as comfortable talking to Jack's mom as he was talking to his own daughter(s). Maybe more. I definitely see him and Jack's mom developing a great relationship over the years. Maybe Jack's father will die soon.
One would hope Old Man Twist would keel over just from all the bile and bitterness that have built up within him.

5. Windows obviously have something to do with the story. But what? I can't figure it out. Any thoughts?
Perhaps a feeling of being on the outside looking in, as Ennis said he looked at all the people on the pavement and wondered if "they knew". Windows and mirrors give a feeling of detachment and a barrier between the person and life.
6. While Jack is standing on a combine doing a sales pitch a man comes into the office and asks Jack's father-in-law, "Is that the cowboy who used to rides bulls?" The father- in-law replies "he tried to".  Jack had a reputation during his bull riding days of being gay and that man might have known. He probably told the father-in-law and they both plotted to have Jack killed. Even though the father-in-law died before Jack I think he had something to do with his death. When Lurleen is describing Jack's death to Ennis I find it interesting that she describes every wretched second of it in detail. "He was changing a tire.... drowned in his own blood before anyone found him", etc. As if that was what she was instructed to say about Jack's death. Sounds too scripted. Did she know a deep dark secret about Jack's death?  I know it's kind of morbid. Just an observation.
There's been quite a lot of speculation about this. The movie is ambiguous, but the story makes it more clear that she was covering up the real reason of death.

7. When Jack is desperately looking for his blue parka Lurleen is ignoring his concern about the parka and talks about other things. Maybe she hid the parka just to annoy Jack. She knew having to look for it would delay his trip to see the love of his life.
Maybe, but I think it's more likely that Jack misplaced it since he was never the organized type of person.

8. Fishing. Fishing. Fishing.  Ennis told Alma that they were fishing buddies. He took his fishing gear with him on each trip. Why did they never fish? There were many  streams, rivers and lakes they could have fished in. Who doesn't love fresh fish? Did they hate their real lives that much? Did they did not want to even bring up fishing because they had talked to their wives about fishing?
They didn't fish, I think, because fishing is a time-consuming activity and they wanted to spend the time doing . . . other things. Plus, they liked to eat the ritual foods that they had had on Brokeback Mountain, potatoes, elk, maybe even beans.

9. While arguing with Jack once about having a life together Ennis sarcastically says, "Lets get Alma and Lurleen to adopt my girls and then we could be free to live a life together and do what we want." Maybe Ennis fantasized about that often. Maybe Ennis was subconsciously sorry he even married Alma that November after Brokeback. When Ennis shed a tear at the divorce I think he was more upset about having to pay child support. This would financially keep him from seeing Jack as often as he wanted.
Sounds likely. I think Ennis' outburst had to do with Alma giving up the girls so Lureen and Jack could adopt them and Ennis and Jack could live together without him having to abandon his daughters. That was a highly unlikely scenario.

10. When Ennis read that Jack had died he immediately went to the phone booth across the street to call Lurleen. How did he know the number? Did he have it memorized? Did he carry it with him in his wallet? I thought that it was very touching that he had Jack's number all this time but could never call Jack.
I'm not sure how much time passed between the "deceased" postcard and the call to Lureen. It could have been a while.

I see Jack as being the "male" and Ennis being the "female" in the relationship. However the story shows that there really were no "roles". They loved each other unconditionally and would do anything for one another. You see Jack doing Ennis's laundry. You see Ennis diligently cooking for Jack. Ennis helped Jack carry the large log and offered to trade places with him to sleep with the sheep. Ennis shot the elk because the groceries were destroyed and Jack wanted to eat some meat. Jack ran over to Ennis to comfort him when he came to the camp with a bleeding head. Jack took off his bandana and dipped it in hot water to help clean the wound, etc.

The beauty of the story is that love has no bounds. Love cannot be conformed to "roles". Love cannot be restricted to the way society says it has to be.  Aquirre, Jack's father-in-law and Jack's father lived their lives strictly as "society" told them to live. Without an original thought. Without an open mind.  Were they happy? Did you once see a smile on their faces? Were they three people you would like to hang out with?
Amen, kittycat.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #314 on: February 08, 2015, 06:29:30 pm »
Isn't this a wonderful thread started by our old friend nakymaton? I miss him/her.

Nakymaton is/was a her. Didn't you two ever meet? Do you remember why I would have thought you would have?



Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #315 on: February 08, 2015, 07:26:26 pm »
Yes, I met her but I was in the habit, back in the day, of protecting her privacy since she worked in a very strictly gendered profession.
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Offline JackFromMoscow

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #316 on: February 08, 2015, 07:39:06 pm »
Front-Ranger
Quote
they liked to eat the ritual foods that they had had on Brokeback Mountain, potatoes, elk, maybe even beans

Russian dubbing would make it pretty clear with beans!
In the "You're late" scene Ennis says: "Look, what I got here" or smth like that. His further speech is too silent to hear, but in russian version there's the whole dialogue between them: "— Look, what I got here! — Is that beans you've brought?! — Yes, beans themselves! I'd like to cook it just like earlier days".
So be sure, Front-Ranger, the did cook beans  :-P
That is one of the made-up phrases (and even dialogues like the upper example) our dubbers have added.

P.S. I used translator, but I haven't found a proper word (a word that denotes something made-up what interpreter adds to the text on his own)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #317 on: February 08, 2015, 08:28:48 pm »
Yes, I met her but I was in the habit, back in the day, of protecting her privacy since she worked in a very strictly gendered profession.

Good idea, though I would think that not mentioning her real name, nor her profession, nor where she lives would be sufficient protection even if we disclosed gender.

I hope never to have my identity here linked with my public identity out there, although both are clear about my gender, current and former place of residence, family structure, profession and any number of other identifying characteristics. I'm sure it would be possible to trace me here, and maybe I'm being naive, but I'm fairly confident nobody's going to go to the bother.

It did make me somewhat uncomfortable a few yeas ago when someone I knew from here, someone I knew strongly disliked me, became able to connect my two identities. But even then I didn't let myself lose sleep over it, and so far it hasn't been an issue. Finally, too, I realized that although I've probably said some things here I'd rather not have spread all over Twitter or whatever, they're a fairly small percentage of my 16K posts and they're not even all that incriminating.

I do remember Barbara -- remember her? -- being extremely cautious about posting any identifying characteristics. But she had some very concrete reasons to be wary.




Offline coffeedrinkintexan

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #318 on: February 11, 2015, 03:24:10 pm »
Front-Ranger
Russian dubbing would make it pretty clear with beans!
In the "You're late" scene Ennis says: "Look, what I got here" or smth like that. His further speech is too silent to hear, but in russian version there's the whole dialogue between them: "— Look, what I got here! — Is that beans you've brought?! — Yes, beans themselves! I'd like to cook it just like earlier days".
So be sure, Front-Ranger, the did cook beans  :-P
That is one of the made-up phrases (and even dialogues like the upper example) our dubbers have added.

P.S. I used translator, but I haven't found a proper word (a word that denotes something made-up what interpreter adds to the text on his own)
My DVD (English) has that whole exchange....but I didn't catch it until probably a dozen viewings. And only with earbuds in and the volume turned AAAALLLLL the way up. And because of a discussion on one of these threads about what they were saying.

It's almost like those 'hidden songs' artists used to put at the end of CDs - you know, back when people bought a lot of CDs - as a little gift for whoever bought it.
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