Author Topic: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?  (Read 18673 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« on: December 15, 2009, 11:12:19 am »
Is it because she's a woman?   >:(

WASHINGTON – The widely played video clip of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer reprimanding a general for calling her "ma'am" is the gift that keeps on giving for the two Republicans hoping to challenge her next year.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_calif_senate_race_ma_am

Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 02:18:32 pm »
Do we know how Gen. Walsh addressed the male senators?  Did he address them as "sir" or as "Senator"? 
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 03:02:34 pm »
Do we know how Gen. Walsh addressed the male senators?  Did he address them as "sir" or as "Senator"? 

The senators were calling the general, 'general' - which implied respect for his earned title.  He called a senator - ma'am.  When she asked to be called by her title which she also earned and which deserves respect - she gets criticized for it.

Why?

Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 03:47:39 pm »
The senators were calling the general, 'general' - which implied respect for his earned title.  He called a senator - ma'am.  When she asked to be called by her title which she also earned and which deserves respect - she gets criticized for it.

Why?

I'm not criticizing her for asking to be addressed as "Senator."  She's entitled to be addressed as she asked.  But one of the questions you posed was "Is it because she's a woman?"  I don't know the answer to that w/o knowing how he addressed the male senators. 
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 03:48:59 pm »
I'm not criticizing her for asking to be addressed as "Senator."  She's entitled to be addressed as she asked.  But one of the questions you posed was "Is it because she's a woman?"  I don't know the answer to that w/o knowing how he addressed the male senators. 

Sorry, my mistake.  My question was more centered around why she is getting criticism at all.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 04:00:04 pm »
WASHINGTON – The widely played video clip of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer reprimanding a general for calling her "ma'am" is the gift that keeps on giving for the two Republicans hoping to challenge her next year.

So I guess this is implying that Boxer has done herself more harm than good by making an issue over this?

IIRC, it was one morning last week that I heard Matt Lauer address a cabinet member as "Madam Secretary"; I wonder whether that's all over Youtube, too?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 04:06:53 pm »
Wait... maybe I'm getting my etiquette mixed up... but isn't "Madam Secretary" the correct form of address for a Secretary? 

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Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 04:08:19 pm »
Sorry, my mistake.  My question was more centered around why she is getting criticism at all.

No problem.  Political opponents will take any opportunity to criticize, I guess. I agree that the General didn't appear to be offended by her request. 
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2009, 04:26:00 pm »
Wait... maybe I'm getting my etiquette mixed up... but isn't "Madam Secretary" the correct form of address for a Secretary?  

As far as I know, it still is correct. I meant to wonder whether anyone who takes offense at a general addressing a female senator as "ma'am" was also going to take offense at a female cabinet member being addressed as "madam."

Edited to add:

Actually, is it really possible to separate the fact that Senator Boxer is being criticized for asking the general not to address her as "ma'am" from the fact that she is a woman?

I'm afraid she may well have given a "gift that keeps on giving" to her opponents for her Senate seat. She created an issue where there was none, that somehow the general was disrespecting her by calling her "ma'am," and that was just stupid, on her part. If the general had been calling her "honey," or "sweetie," or "little lady," or something really condescending like that, then he would for sure have been disrespecting her. But I'm pretty sure the general is "of an age" that when he was coming up through the ranks and being educated as an officer, that was how officers were taught to address women, as "ma'am," as a sign of respect.

You can argue that it's time for the military to change it's thinking on this matter, and on how it educates its officers, and I wouldn't disagree with that, but for the present IMO Senator Boxer has done herself a disservice by creating this issue where there was none.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2009, 05:12:38 pm »
But I'm pretty sure the general is "of an age" that when he was coming up through the ranks and being educated as an officer, that was how officers were taught to address women, as "ma'am," as a sign of respect.

I don't think the General was intending to be disrespectful at all; in fact, quite the opposite.  And I, personally, would not have been offended or bothered if he had called me ma'am.  But if Senator Boxer wants to be addressed as "Senator," that's her prerogative, I suppose.  
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2009, 06:49:40 pm »
I don't think the General was intending to be disrespectful at all; in fact, quite the opposite.  And I, personally, would not have been offended or bothered if he had called me ma'am.  But if Senator Boxer wants to be addressed as "Senator," that's her prerogative, I suppose.

I agree, but then I'm not a senator.  She probably feels she's earned the title.  Why would it be not correct to want to be called by a title one feels one has earned?  Most people I know who have a doctorate want to be called 'doctor'.  It would be as if a woman doctor stopped someone and asked them to call her doctor.  It happens in college.

Plus it's psychological.  In customer service, you get more respect from a customer if you say something like

"Hello, my name is Ms. Vanderlaan, how can I help you?"

than if you say

"Hello, my name is Sherri, how can I help you?"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2009, 07:32:48 pm »
I agree, but then I'm not a senator.  She probably feels she's earned the title.  Why would it be not correct to want to be called by a title one feels one has earned?

I'm sure it's not incorrect, but, apparently, at least somebody thinks the senator from California made a political misstep to make an issue of it.

Quote
Most people I know who have a doctorate want to be called 'doctor'.  It would be as if a woman doctor stopped someone and asked them to call her doctor.  It happens in college.

Sure enough, but even that can vary. When I was in graduate school, the professors in my department felt it was ... hmmm ... I guess parvenu would be the appropriate word ... to be addressed as Doctor. It was just assumed that if you were teaching where they were teaching, you had a Ph.D.  :laugh:

Quote
Plus it's psychological.  In customer service, you get more respect from a customer if you say something like

"Hello, my name is Ms. Vanderlaan, how can I help you?"

than if you say

"Hello, my name is Sherri, how can I help you?"

Sure enough, but I doubt this applies in the case of the general and the senator. Of course, if Senator Boxer needs the reinforcement of being addressed as Senator, then I think she may have more issues than how General Walsh addressed her.  ::)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2009, 07:51:20 pm »
I'm sure it's not incorrect, but, apparently, at least somebody thinks the senator from California made a political misstep to make an issue of it.

Makes you wonder why they thought it was a misstep.

Quote
Sure enough, but even that can vary. When I was in graduate school, the professors in my department felt it was ... hmmm ... I guess parvenu would be the appropriate word ... to be addressed as Doctor. It was just assumed that if you were teaching where they were teaching, you had a Ph.D.  :laugh:

True, but not in undergrad.  And definitely not in the science areas.

Quote
Sure enough, but I doubt this applies in the case of the general and the senator. Of course, if Senator Boxer needs the reinforcement of being addressed as Senator, then I think she may have more issues than how General Walsh addressed her.  ::)

Perhaps.  She probably felt it put her on more equal footing.  Well, if the senators are going to be professional and address him by his rank, why can't he be professional and address us by our rank?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 05:59:28 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2009, 07:56:27 pm »
If Barbara Boxer is so insecure that she needs the lip-service respect of title when she's already clearly getting the respect due to her position as a senator, maybe she should be voted out of office. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2009, 07:59:59 pm »
If Barabara Boxer is so insecure that she needs the lip-service respect of title when she's already clearly getting the respect due to her position as a senator, maybe she should be voted out of office. ...

Wanting to be addressed by your proper title is only lip-service and a sign of insecurity?  Hmmm, maybe I should tell my doctor or a judge or a police officer that next time I see them.... ::)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2009, 08:13:34 pm »
Wanting to be addressed by your proper title is only lip-service and a sign of insecurity?  Hmmm, maybe I should tell my doctor or a judge or a police officer that next time I see them.... ::)

Whatever. ...

You deliberately ignored the part of my post concerning the fact that the general was not being disrespectful to the senator, and a senator who is sitting up on a dais and looking down on a general, who is not treating her disrespectfully, and still feels compelled to lecture him like a schoolmarm on how to address her, clearly has issues. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2009, 08:19:21 pm »
Whatever. ...

You deliberately ignored the part of my post concerning the fact that the general was not being disrespectful to the senator, and a senator who is sitting up on a dais and looking down on a general, who is not treating her disrespectfully, and still feels compelled to lecture him like a schoolmarm on how to address her, clearly has issues. ...

To me, it sounds like the senator overreacted by making a big deal out of it. Then her political opponents overreacted even more by making an even bigger deal out of it.


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2009, 08:20:55 pm »
To me, it sounds like the senator overreacted by making a big deal out of it. Then her political opponents overreacted even more by making an even bigger deal out of it.

I think she did, too, and it was a political misstep because by so doing she handed ammunition to her opponents.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 08:27:32 pm »
Whatever. ...

You deliberately ignored the part of my post concerning the fact that the general was not being disrespectful to the senator, and a senator who is sitting up on a dais and looking down on a general, who is not treating her disrespectfully, and still feels compelled to lecture him like a schoolmarm on how to address her, clearly has issues. ...

Well, since we don't know what the general was calling the senators who were men, we really don't know how 'respectful' the general was being at all.  Maybe he WAS supposed to be calling her Senator?

That she wants to be called by her title is a 'lecture'?  Whatever..


Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2009, 08:43:30 pm »
Sure enough, but even that can vary. When I was in graduate school, the professors in my department felt it was ... hmmm ... I guess parvenu would be the appropriate word ... to be addressed as Doctor. It was just assumed that if you were teaching where they were teaching, you had a Ph.D.  :laugh:

 :laugh:  I was thinking the same thing!  Years ago, I was an adjunct at a community college, teaching a business law class.  There was another adjunct, who insisted that his students refer to him as "Dr. ____."  Now, although attorneys have a "juris doctor" they are never, never addressed as "Dr." It simply is not done.  And I remember all the eye-rolling that was done behind his back.  I also remember how shocked he was when he asked me how my students addressed me and I told him that they called me by my first name.  Some of the students were older than I was at the time! :laugh:
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 05:18:40 pm »
If Barbara Boxer is so insecure that she needs the lip-service respect of title when she's already clearly getting the respect due to her position as a senator, maybe she should be voted out of office. ...

Damned uppity of her to ask to be addressed as anything  but "Barbie."  She oughtta be put in a small rowboat and set adrift.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 05:20:55 pm »
:laugh:  I was thinking the same thing!  Years ago, I was an adjunct at a community college, teaching a business law class.  There was another adjunct, who insisted that his students refer to him as "Dr. ____."  Now, although attorneys have a "juris doctor" they are never, never addressed as "Dr." It simply is not done.  And I remember all the eye-rolling that was done behind his back.  I also remember how shocked he was when he asked me how my students addressed me and I told him that they called me by my first name.  Some of the students were older than I was at the time! :laugh:

The subject is a US Senator, not an academic professional.  And addressing a Senator is "Senator" is simply done.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2009, 07:58:43 pm »
Wanting to be addressed by your proper title is only lip-service and a sign of insecurity?  Hmmm, maybe I should tell my doctor or a judge or a police officer that next time I see them.... ::)

When I get stopped by a policeman, I always answer--"Yes sir" or "No sir". I don't think I'm being disrespectful by not saying, "Yes, officer." or "No, captain." or whatever. And they don't correct me on that point.
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2009, 01:45:49 pm »
When I get stopped by a policeman, I always answer--"Yes sir" or "No sir". I don't think I'm being disrespectful by not saying, "Yes, officer." or "No, captain." or whatever. And they don't correct me on that point.

In that case, you know exactly what to say should a US Senator arrest you.

Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2009, 02:38:33 pm »
The subject is a US Senator, not an academic professional.  And addressing a Senator is "Senator" is simply done.

Yes, but I was replying to Jeff's post, which did bring up the subject of academic professionals. 

If you read all the posts, you'll note that I said:

Quote
I'm not criticizing her for asking to be addressed as "Senator."  She's entitled to be addressed as she asked.
and

Quote
...I, personally, would not have been offended or bothered if he had called me ma'am.  But if Senator Boxer wants to be addressed as "Senator," that's her prerogative...
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2009, 07:18:50 pm »

       I think its a matter of respect.  You wouldnt address the President as sir.  If he kept calling you
General, etc.  You would use their proper title.  Even after a person is no longer in office.  They are
still addressed as former Pres, Senator, representative, or whatever.



     Beautiful mind

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2009, 01:34:23 pm »
In that case, you know exactly what to say should a US Senator arrest you.

Why would a senator arrest speeders?

Anyway. I noticed during the roll call vote for the health care bill, whoever was calling each senator's name said "Mr." or "Miss" or "Mrs.", so it must not be mandatory to use the title, "Senator". The general was right, and the senator was wrong and rude to publicly correct him.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2009, 02:14:23 pm »
Why would a senator arrest speeders?

Anyway. I noticed during the roll call vote for the health care bill, whoever was calling each senator's name said "Mr." or "Miss" or "Mrs.", so it must not be mandatory to use the title, "Senator". The general was right, and the senator was wrong and rude to publicly correct him.

Who was doing the roll-calling?   A general?

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2009, 10:12:52 pm »
Who was doing the roll-calling?   A general?

I don't know. It was a woman.
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