Was Ennis telling a "boldfaced lie"?

[chowhound]

Earlier today I was reading an interview that Tom Benz, the production manager of Brokeback Mountain, gave in the October of 2006. The following passage I found of interest:

  Rob: Cut scenes....There were several scenes shot for BBM that were edited out of the final print. Would it be possible to get a very detailed listing of these omitted scenes including the characters involved and how the missing scenes related to the plot?

 

Tom: I'm so far removed now, from the strategies of Brokeback, I wouldn't know about the marketing or packaging. I know for the longest time on eBay, you could buy the script that we shot. And then I suppose the detail that would be in that script would be you'd look at the movie and you'd go "wow, that's scene isn't in there" ...because essentially we filmed the script & then edit the story, not the script...you find the story within what you've photographed, so you shoot the script & you edit the story.

 

Rob: Will these "lost" scenes be made available someday?

 

Tom: Again, I'm away from that part of things. In general, I see a wonderful DVD features market come up....it's not just the movie, it's all the other features...suddenly deleted scenes have a value, where they stayed on the cutting room floor before these features came out.

 

Rob: For example: Ennis brings his children to the market and leaves them with Alma. He declares that he must leave immediately to work at the ranch that night (the heifers are calving). We, in the audience, are left to assume that Ennis is telling a boldface lie. Or is he?

 

 

Tom: I remember, it was in Carstairs, the grocery store......If I remember the context, he is trying to go out & see Jack....it was an excuse to go out & see Jack.

 

Rob: It appears that there is a deleted scene preceding this one showing Jack and Ennis together and making plans. I think the film would have been clearer if this cut scene had been included.

 

Tom: That's an opinion & I think what is always interesting is how a Director wants to make the audience work for the story. When I hear comments like this "it would have been clearer", I must say, many Directors would go "good, I'm making them work for it" rather than be disappointed that it was hard to get. The easier a film is to figure out, the less successful it is. No one is challenged by, nobody wants to see it again.

                                                              _________________

Probably I'm an innocent but had it occurred to others that Ennis was telling a "boldfaced lie" in order to get off for a sudden opportunity to see Jack that had just come up? I've always took it at face value and assumed that he was off to look after the livestock. However, it looks as though I must think about this scene again.

[Sason]

It never even occured to me that Ennis was not going to the ranch to work.

Even if I rethink the scene now, it doesn't seem likely to me that he was meeting Jack.

How could he meet Jack on a whim, just like that? Jack was living in Texas, would he come up without telling Ennis beforehand? We know he did that later, but that was after the divorce and there would be no Alma in the way.

I don't think it's plausible that Jack would drive all that way and just turn up at Ennis's doorstep, when he knew he had a wife and kids.

[Monika]

Probably I'm an innocent but had it occurred to others that Ennis was telling a "boldfaced lie" in order to get off for a sudden opportunity to see Jack that had just come up? I've always took it at face value and assumed that he was off to look after the livestock. However, it looks as though I must think about this scene again.

thanks Chowhound for that very interesting observation!


I've seen that scene a hundred times and it has never occurred to me that Ennis was lying. I've always seen the purpose of that scene to be to tell us something about Ennis's and Alma's relationship at that stage. Ennis is always working and not being very considerate to Alma (he is somewhat of an ass in this scene ) and also a way to show us Alma's workplace and Monroe. It becomes very clear that Monroe is a lot nicer to Alma than Ennis is so it's easier for us to understand the divorce.

It strikes me as somewhat strange if it was an excuse to go and see Jack. It seems as they always planned their meet-ups well in advance, indeed months in advance and Ennis always had the fishing trip cover story to use.

[Brown Eyes]

thanks Chowhound for that very interesting observation!


I've seen that scene a hundred times and it has never occurred to me that Ennis was lying. I've always seen the purpose of that scene to be to tell us something about Ennis's and Alma's relationship at that stage. Ennis is always working and not being very considerate to Alma (he is somewhat of an ass in this scene ) and also a way to show us Alma's workplace and Monroe. It becomes very clear that Monroe is a lot nicer to Alma than Ennis is so it's easier for us to understand the divorce.

Yes, this is how I've always seen the grocery scene too... as about how fundamentally strained the relationship was on many different levels.


And, this would really change the order of events...the grocery scene comes before the first postcard arrives from Jack.  At the time of the grocery scene we'd have no reason to think Ennis and Jack were even in contact again (the way things are currently ordered in the film now).

[brokeplex]

Rob: For example: Ennis brings his children to the market and leaves them with Alma. He declares that he must leave immediately to work at the ranch that night (the heifers are calving). We, in the audience, are left to assume that Ennis is telling a boldface lie. Or is he?
Tom: I remember, it was in Carstairs, the grocery store......If I remember the context, he is trying to go out & see Jack....it was an excuse to go out & see Jack.
Rob: It appears that there is a deleted scene preceding this one showing Jack and Ennis together and making plans. I think the film would have been clearer if this cut scene had been included.

DEELIGHTFUL!  I like that different perspective on Ennis! And wow, I really would like to see a re-release of the dvd, with a commentary track and those deleted scenes! 

Thanks for the information

Bill

[Jeff Wrangler]

I've seen that scene a hundred times and it has never occurred to me that Ennis was lying. I've always seen the purpose of that scene to be to tell us something about Ennis's and Alma's relationship at that stage. Ennis is always working and not being very considerate to Alma (he is somewhat of an ass in this scene ) and also a way to show us Alma's workplace and Monroe. It becomes very clear that Monroe is a lot nicer to Alma than Ennis is so it's easier for us to understand the divorce.

It strikes me as somewhat strange if it was an excuse to go and see Jack. It seems as they always planned their meet-ups well in advance, indeed months in advance and Ennis always had the fishing trip cover story to use.

This is how I've always seen this scene, too. This is the scene that introduces Monroe, and it shows that Ennis doesn't place any value on Alma's job.

[Sason]

And, this would really change the order of events...the grocery scene comes before the first postcard arrives from Jack.  At the time of the grocery scene we'd have no reason to think Ennis and Jack were even in contact again (the way things are currently ordered in the film now).

Very true. Haven't even thought of that.

It only adds to my belief that Ennis was not lying at all. He really was going to the ranch to work.

[Brown Eyes]

He really was going to the ranch to work.

Yes, I believe that too. 

[Luvlylittlewing]

I believe he was actually going to work, as well.  I've seen that scene a million times (it seems  ) and I can't image Ennis as the type who would lie to get out of taking care of his kids to go meet up with his lover.  He would look real irresponsible, and a bad father; Ennis is neither, IMHO.

[Marina]

Hi there,

Interesting topic - I've always thought Ennis was truly going to work as well.   I've always loved the subplots of Brokeback Mountain, besides the major story, and one of them was about manhood and what it meant to be a man in that time, and also a father.  What struck me about this scene was that Ennis, being the man, his role and job was considered more important than Alma's, her place was with the children.   He gives her that stern, almost authoritative look when she questions him.  It wasn't really Ennis' fault, it was societal and cultural - society's view of men, women, their roles and families at the time.   (Also I think you can see this with Jack and the Thanksgiving scene).

I liked when Alma ignores Ennis' "orders" though later in the film, being realistic and going out to take the extra shift to help make ends meet, because Ennis' contribution just wasn't enough.   But Alma knew when enough was enough, so I had to hand it to her - but poor Lureen was the long-suffering one.   Not that it was the guys' fault - again, society's rigid rules and gender roles.

I do remember reading somewhere that there was a scene planned where Ennis did lie, saying he was going to work but really going to meet Jack, though, and it wasn't included in the final cut.

Sorry to be all over the place with this answer, but it being one of my favorite films ever, I could go on and on about Brokeback Mountain.  

M

[Mandy21]

I always thought he was telling the truth in this scene, especially because he says he'll be back that very night by telling her what to bring home for their dinner.

Also thought that it was a pivotal scene in the showdown of looks they give each other.  Reminded me of how dog owners are sometimes taught to stare down a dog that they're training, and never (as the human) to blink first.  If the dog blinks first, he's conceding that you're the stronger.  In this case, Ennis's glare wins over Alma's, and so she backs down.  But she is publicly humiliated and mortified, and I think this is the beginning of the end of their marriage.

[Luvlylittlewing]

I always thought he was telling the truth in this scene, especially because he says he'll be back that very night by telling her what to bring home for their dinner.

Good point! 

[pnwDUDE]

Just one of many scenes that cements the fact that Ennis is stuck. Makes it so much sadder thinking about that sweet life he could have had. How difficult and tormenting the situation was for him. It also shows that Ennis knows his responsibility is providing for those kids and Alma. Later, when he had the chance, he just couldn't do it.

Brad

[serious crayons]

It seems to me that Tom is misremembering the scene as it appears in the movie. Ennis couldn't possibly be secretly planning to meet up with Jack, because he and Jack haven't reunited yet.

However, I think I remember a discussion of this scene, either here or at IMDb, where we either had reason to believe or were just speculating that this scene was initially intended to appear later in the movie, where it COULD be about Ennis lying to get together with Jack. Even then it would be a little weird, if he's expecting to be home for dinner.

If that's what the scene was originally about, it's strange that they included it after all but in a different place. It doesn't seem very pivotal, and it's always made me a little uncomfortable because of the way Ennis mispronounces "girls."

It's interesting to see the range of reactions here, from feeling that it shows Alma being publicly humiliated, to feeling that it shows Ennis being in a tormenting situation. I just see it as the sort of conflict that most married couples get into from time to time.

Yes, Ennis feels that Alma's job is less important than his. Or at least, it's more urgent that he go to it immediately. And he very well could be right, judging from their responses -- Ennis seems stressed about getting there, and he obviously can't take the girls with him, whereas Alma has a sister and an accommodating boss and is able to take the kids. More may be at stake with Ennis' job -- it may pay better, and be more essential to supporting the family.

The other important aspect of this scene is Alma Jr.'s line, "I need crayons." As usual, so much is contained in a seemingly throwaway line! It's a metaphor for the whole movie.

[Jeff Wrangler]

However, I think I remember a discussion of this scene, either here or at IMDb, where we either had reason to believe or were just speculating that this scene was initially intended to appear later in the movie, where it COULD be about Ennis lying to get together with Jack. Even then it would be a little weird, if he's expecting to be home for dinner.

I think I remember that, too.

If that's what the scene was originally about, it's strange that they included it after all but in a different place. It doesn't seem very pivotal, and it's always made me a little uncomfortable because of the way Ennis mispronounces "girls."

Of course, then there would have had to be another scene to introduce Monroe.

[Ellemeno]

However, I think I remember a discussion of this scene, either here or at IMDb, where we either had reason to believe or were just speculating that this scene was initially intended to appear later in the movie, where it COULD be about Ennis lying to get together with Jack.

I feel sure we talked about it once upon a time.

I love all the points everyone has brought up in this thread.  It feels like everyone is right, even the views that may be in conflict with each other.  What makes this a great movie.

[Ellemeno]

And of course Ennis tells a number of boldfaced lies.

[Sason]

If that's what the scene was originally about, it's strange that they included it after all but in a different place. It doesn't seem very pivotal, and it's always made me a little uncomfortable because of the way Ennis mispronounces "girls."

Does he?

In what way does he mispronounce it?

Maybe it's something all native English speakers will hear immediately and always knew, but this is the first I heard of it.

[Ellemeno]

Does he?

In what way does he mispronounce it?

Maybe it's something all native English speakers will hear immediately and always knew, but this is the first I heard of it.

Sonja, for some weird reason, in that scene, Heath sounds very Australian in spots, and the word "girls" is the strongest example.  To me, it's so strong that I am surprised they left it in the movie.  It doesn't fit with his mostly impeccable accent in the rest of the film.

[serious crayons]

To me, it's so strong that I am surprised they left it in the movie.

Me too. It doesn't seem like it would have been that difficult to re-record the voice for that line, without even touching the rest of the scene. I think I've seen Brokies say that low-budget indies have to cut corners where they can, but given the care lavished on making the rest of the movie authentic it doesn't seem like this would be that big a deal.

Does he?

In what way does he mispronounce it?

Not sure how well this will translate, but here goes: What Heath says in that scene might be spelled "guhls" or "gihls" or even "gulls" in an American accent. But what a Wyoming accent would sound and be spelled like is more like "grrrls" or "garhls" with a harder R. Does that make sense?

Elle, I'm not sure I've noticed that many other spots where Heath seems noticeably Australian. Overall, he did master the American accent really well. That's why, for me, this one spot is so jarring. I can see how it would happen -- it would be tough to keep up an impeccable non-native accent at all times, and many actors attempting different English-language dialects, even including Americans doing other American regions, are MUCH less successful -- but I wish they'd have fixed it.

To add further complication, Heath's accent never sounded to me like a typical Australian accent (at least, the way I think of one) -- it always sounded sort of British. I believe either Sue or Kerry enlightened me at some point that his accent isn't necessarily typical Australian, but is a reflection of his region and background.

[Sason]

Sonja, for some weird reason, in that scene, Heath sounds very Australian in spots, and the word "girls" is the strongest example.  To me, it's so strong that I am surprised they left it in the movie.  It doesn't fit with his mostly impeccable accent in the rest of the film.

Thanks for explaining, Clarissa.

For obvious reasons I've never noticed it.

[Sason]

Not sure how well this will translate, but here goes: What Heath says in that scene might be spelled "guhls" or "gihls" or even "gulls" in an American accent. But what a Wyoming accent would sound and be spelled like is more like "grrrls" or "garhls" with a harder R. Does that make sense?

Thanks, SC.
Yes, it does make sence, but I have to go back to the movie and listen to it in order to really understand it.
But now I know what to listen for.

[chowhound]

The Tom Benz interview can also be found on Finding Brokeback but that version lacks the "boldfaced lie"  passage. I wrote to Jim Bond, one of the board's founders about this discrepancy and this is what he said in reply:

Yes, Rob Freemen did the 2006 Benz interview and posted it on his Brokeback
Truck website. It contains a lot of great material and it was a wonderful
addition to the FB site. Before he met Tom Benz, Rob solicited questions
from members of the Cullen community. As you would expect, some were great
questions, others extended well beyond Benz's areas of responsibility and
expertise. Some contained fan opinions that are unsupported by the record.

We cut the interview questions that were obviously outside of Benz's area or
that where potentially misleading. The people who agreed to interviews were
very good to cooperate with us and they tried hard to remember what happened
years ago when they made the film, but their memories are imperfect. We saw
no reason to embarrass them and to potentially mislead others by publishing
their errors.

Benz did not have any role in editing or marketing the film, the grocery
story scene preceded the postcard scene (as it does in all of the scripts -
there was no collusion with Jack at this point), it was not shot in
Carstairs, etc. Hence our deletion of these questions and answers.

[Monika]

The Tom Benz interview can also be found on Finding Brokeback but that version lacks the "boldfaced lie"  passage. I wrote to Jim Bond, one of the board's founders about this discrepancy and this is what he said in reply:

Yes, Rob Freemen did the 2006 Benz interview and posted it on his Brokeback
Truck website. It contains a lot of great material and it was a wonderful
addition to the FB site. Before he met Tom Benz, Rob solicited questions
from members of the Cullen community. As you would expect, some were great
questions, others extended well beyond Benz's areas of responsibility and
expertise. Some contained fan opinions that are unsupported by the record.

We cut the interview questions that were obviously outside of Benz's area or
that where potentially misleading. The people who agreed to interviews were
very good to cooperate with us and they tried hard to remember what happened
years ago when they made the film, but their memories are imperfect. We saw
no reason to embarrass them and to potentially mislead others by publishing
their errors.

Benz did not have any role in editing or marketing the film, the grocery
story scene preceded the postcard scene (as it does in all of the scripts -
there was no collusion with Jack at this point), it was not shot in
Carstairs, etc. Hence our deletion of these questions and answers.

Chowhound - thanks for the excellent detective work!

I think Jim and the FB crew made the right decision.