Author Topic: 19 or 20?  (Read 14885 times)

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2010, 03:39:07 pm »
I'm inclined to believe that most film-goers don't do a lot of math.
 
That´s my guess too.
Screwing up the timeline is a pretty common thing in movies.

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2010, 04:21:48 pm »
sorry for going OT but often when I read the passage where Pa Twist pees on Jack, the thought that he might have abused Jack sexually crosses my mind. It just seems as sucha perverted thing to do.
I'm just curious whether anyone else ever has made this association?
To me this might explain Jack's apparent "know-how".

Hey Monika - I'm coming late to this thread and I just saw your post here.

It is certainly something to think about.

That scene in the short story distresses me a great deal and although I don't know if sexual intercourse (experience) is intended, the abuse IMO is definite.  Here is the whole paragraph:

So now he knew it had been the tire iron. He stood up, said, you bet he'd like to see Jack's room, recalled one of Jack's stories about this old man. Jack was dick-clipped and the old man was not; it bothered the son who had discovered the anatomical disconformity during a hard scene. He had been about three or four, he said, always late getting to the toilet, struggling with buttons, the seat, the height of the thing and often as not left the surroundings sprinkled down. The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, 'You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you,' and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra material that I was missin. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that."

I always wondered if there was more because it seems an abrupt transition from the 'hard scene' to the noticing his father was not circumcised.  And perhaps men understand it better than women - to me, "no way to get it right with him" should refer to the 'hard scene' instead of the anatomical difference.

And now I'm wondering if this is really a metaphor on another level - Jack's anatomical difference representing his difference in orientation as well?
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline SuperDistortion

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2010, 04:43:05 pm »
Hey Monika - I'm coming late to this thread and I just saw your post here.

It is certainly something to think about.

That scene in the short story distresses me a great deal and although I don't know if sexual intercourse (experience) is intended, the abuse IMO is definite.  Here is the whole paragraph:

So now he knew it had been the tire iron. He stood up, said, you bet he'd like to see Jack's room, recalled one of Jack's stories about this old man. Jack was dick-clipped and the old man was not; it bothered the son who had discovered the anatomical disconformity during a hard scene. He had been about three or four, he said, always late getting to the toilet, struggling with buttons, the seat, the height of the thing and often as not left the surroundings sprinkled down. The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, 'You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you,' and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra material that I was missin. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that."

I always wondered if there was more because it seems an abrupt transition from the 'hard scene' to the noticing his father was not circumcised.  And perhaps men understand it better than women - to me, "no way to get it right with him" should refer to the 'hard scene' instead of the anatomical difference.

And now I'm wondering if this is really a metaphor on another level - Jack's anatomical difference representing his difference in orientation as well?

Fascinating perspective.  Definitely food for thought...
"Really, it's not mine..."   --- Austin Powers

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2010, 04:59:51 pm »


And now I'm wondering if this is really a metaphor on another level - Jack's anatomical difference representing his difference in orientation as well?
Hi Lynne! This is what I´ve always thought- that his anatomical difference somehow represented his difference in orientation, but I have never fully understood exactly why.
Why would Pa Twist mind Jack being circumcised, and besides, it couldn´t have been news to him that he was.
Perhaps Jack was starring a bit too long at his dad´s penis?

Or maybe the "no way to get it right with him after that" does refer to "the hard scene" after all and has nothing to do with Jack being circumcised.

Where is AP when you need her? :P



Offline chowhound

  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 172
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2010, 05:58:28 pm »
oh, yes. there have been some discussion threads about Jack not being the biological father of Bobby. I think that Ang Lee added this suggestion to the film in order to better explain Jack's life in TX. I think this addition to the storyline improves the overall tale because it makes Jack a more believable character.

If Jack is not Bobby's biological father, then that fact alone provides a persuasive reason for Old Man Newsome's aggressive and dismissive attiitude towards Jack. We first see this when he and his wife visit the newborn Bobby. He flings his car keys at Jack, ordering him to go out to the car and find the formula they have brought and when admiring Bobby his remarks cur Jack out entirely - "he's the spittin image of his grandpa...(glances at Jack)...isn't he the spittin' image of his grandpa?"

From what Jack tells Ennis on their first reunion, it looks as though his attempts to get rid of Jack, once Jack has provided the necessary cover by marrying Lureen, have been going on for some while:

"Hell, Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a downpayment if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it..."

Also, if Jack is not Bobby's biological father, it makes more understandable Jack's willingness  to leave his wife and newborn son to start a new life with Ennis.

This is not the only possible explanation for Old Man Newsome's attitude towards Jack but, in my opinion, it is certainly a plausible one.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 01:14:15 pm by chowhound »

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,288
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2010, 06:50:51 pm »
We should not leave Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana out of this equation. Any Texan that appears in the movie is quite likely to be mostly a product of their imaginations. And LM/DO are known for creating some of the most memorable Texas characters in existence.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2010, 02:56:47 am »
We should not leave Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana out of this equation. Any Texan that appears in the movie is quite likely to be mostly a product of their imaginations. And LM/DO are known for creating some of the most memorable Texas characters in existence.


And .... ?
I'm sorry, FRiend, I have no idea what you want to tell us. Do you mean this comment in regard to Jack's fatherhood of Bobby? Or in regard to the original question of this thread? Or something entirely else?

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2010, 05:10:55 am »


Also, if Jack is not Bobby's biological father, it makes more understandable Jack's willingness  to leave his wife and newborn son to start a new life with Ennis.

I think that would be very untypcial AP because it would give Jack a somewhat valid reason to leave.
That´d be too easy, I think.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,288
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2010, 09:03:17 am »
Just to clarify, when we think about the Texan characters in the movie, we have to consider the screenwriters, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana, who are longtime commenters on what it means to be Texan. Think of Last Picture Show, Lonesome Dove, and Terms of Endearment, all stories about Texans. And in all those stories appeared enigmatic women, women shaped by their environment and sometimes driven half-mad by the experiences they endured. Why on earth did Emma marry Flap Horton in Terms of Endearment, and why was Aurora Greenaway so overbearing? It's never spelled out in the story, but the implication is that Texas is not the kind of place to have sensitive feelings or "tender mercies." Thus, Lureen emerges as the same kind of enigmatic woman. McMurtry never spelled out her motives and we could go round and round trying to figure them out. It's clear that she pursued Jack, maybe for straightforward reasons and maybe for devious reasons.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Marina

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 415
Re: 19 or 20?
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2010, 09:08:52 am »
That is certainly plausible, that Lureen would have been pregnant.   I never thought of it that way.   As I mentioned in my previous comment, I noticed a subplot of commentary of the masculinity and culture of the day - to me, LD was the "stud duck" of the family, just as Jack's father was, and Ennis' father appeared to be - and as long as LD was able-bodied, he'd be the "top dog" in that family, and I doubt any other man would be liable to unseat him, the old buffalo!   He didn't like Jack, and I doubt any man, would be good enough for his daughter in his eyes.  Lureen wanted Jack, so I think LD tolerated him.    I love how Lureen rolls her eyes at Jack when her father, whom she obviously loves dearly, says "Isn't he [little Bobby] the spittin' image of his Grampaw?"   :)   I think that Jack had thought about Ennis all the time he was married to Lureen, but didn't realize the depth of his feelings until after the reunion, and then wanted to leave the life he had to be with Ennis then.

But eventually, the "young upstart" Jack did put LD in his place ("you sit down, you ol' sonofabitch.  This is my house.), and I loved it.   And you could see Lureen was quietly pleased.    I wanted to shout "Yeah!".    Not too much different from the animal kingdom!  lol   :)
“Only within the moment of time represented by the present century has one species -- man -- acquired significant power to alter the nature of his world.”
~Rachel Carson~

~Looking back on it, they both realized it was the best thing they ever had.~  - A Mother's Love