"...Tresspassers...Will Be Shot, Survivors..." signs - how old?

[Shuggy]

I was walking on Lummi Island, one of the San Juan Islands in Puget Sound, five weeks ago, and saw a sign saying "No Tresspassers. Violators Will Be Shot, Survivors Will Be Shot Again" I wondered if BBM had the first of those (on Aquirre's office) - i.e. did BBM start the fad- or were they around before, and BBM just used one? Is this the same wording as in BBM? The same design?

[serious crayons]

Interesting, Shuggy! My guess would be that the sign came first, and someone involved with the movie spotted it and realized it perfectly both suits Aguirre's personality and sums up the plot of the movie. But who knows?!

[David In Indy]

Shuggy.... I have seen these same signs here in Indiana for years... ever since I was a child. Indiana can have a real "red neck" mentality sometimes. Yes, I have seen those very same signs posted all across my state for as long as I can remember.

I hope that helps you a little.

[Shuggy]

Shuggy.... I have seen these same signs here in Indiana for years... ever since I was a child. Indiana can have a real "red neck" mentality sometimes. Yes, I have seen those very same signs posted all across my state for as long as I can remember.

I thought it was too good to be true that BBM had started a new craze - not that it is a good one. The locals resent people making parts of the beach private, and it is quite alien to me - all our beaches are public. I guess they checked that the signs were available in 1962?

[serious crayons]

Well, I believe I've heard that some of the truck models are slightly anachronistic, so I don't know if they were that careful about some of those little details. But even if the signs didn't appear until some years after, I think I can live with it.

[serious crayons]

It captures a certain attitude about private property that is rather common in some rural areas, especially in the West. And it sets up Aguirre nicely.

While also describing more or less what happens to Jack and Ennis, who "trepass" against society's rules.

[nakymaton]

While also describing more or less what happens to Jack and Ennis, who "trepass" against society's rules.

Wow. You're right.

"...Survivors will be shot again..."

Ouch.

 

[twistedude]

Sorry, Shuggy..here i AM. (DID I HEAR AN ECHO?)..THEY WOUOD NEVER HAVE USED THE SIGN IN THE MOVIE IF IT HAD NOT BEEEN AN OLD ONE.

iT'S TRESSPASSERS WILL BE SHOT
       SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN

and if the added significance of the message didn't hit you THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE MOVIE, you must have been asleep...
THE BUCKING BRONCO HAS BEEN OPTIONAL ON ALL WYOMING LICENCE PLATES FOR...PROBABLY SINCE THEY STARTED MAKING LICENCE PLATES IN WYOMING.

Don't know about the trcjk models, but the licence plates are a mess...should not be more than four letters+numbers on any Wyoming licence plate in 1963. Jack has 6, the big truck 5,(and it IS Wyoming),--only Aguirre's has the right number

[David In Indy]

What in the world does a bucking bronco on a license plate have to do with a trespassing sign?   

[Shuggy]

Sorry, Shuggy..here i AM. (DID I HEAR AN ECHO?)..THEY WOUOD NEVER HAVE USED THE SIGN IN THE MOVIE IF IT HAD NOT BEEEN AN OLD ONE

iT'S TRESSPASSERS WILL BE SHOT
       SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN

and if the added significance of the message didn't hit you THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE MOVIE, you must have been asleep...
THE BUCKING BRONCO HAS BEEN OPTIONAL ON ALL WYOMING LICENCE PLATES FOR...PROBABLY SINCE THEY STARTED MAKING LICENCE PLATES IN WYOMING.

Don't know about the trcjk models, but the licence plates are a mess...should not be more than four letters+numbers on any Wyoming licence plate in 1963. Jack has 6, the big truck 5,(and it IS Wyoming),--only Aguirre's has the right number

So youre saying they would never have used an anachronistic sign (which would be hard to date) but they did use anachronistic licence plates (which would be easy)?

The added significance of the sign didnt hit me the first time I saw the movie. Hell, the initial significance of the sign didnt hit me the first time I saw the movie, because I hadnt yet encountered Aguirre.

Is there a sense in which Ennis, a trespasser who survived, is shot again?

[nakymaton]

Is there a sense in which Ennis, a trespasser who survived, is shot again?

He just looks so heart-shot (to steal Annie's phrase) at the end, first in the closet when he discovers the shirts, and then when he says "Jack, I swear..." That's all I meant. Like losing Jack hurt enough, and in some ways the shirts are comfort because they symbolize the love that they had, but at the same time, they're a tangible memory of what's gone.

It's like... I know at the end that Jack's the one who is dead, but Ennis is the one I really keep aching for even after all this time. If that makes any sense.

[serious crayons]

and if the added significance of the message didn't hit you THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE MOVIE, you must have been asleep...

In that case, I must have been in a coma. I'm not sure I even noticed the sign at all, let alone appreciated its added significance. That first time, I noticed exactly two things that I thought might possibly have additional significance, though I didn't know what it was, and neither one of them was that sign.

But how could anyone understand the sign's significance if they didn't know how the movie ends? Or do you mean they'd get to the end and say to themselves, "Oh, so THAT'S what the sign outside Aguirre's office really meant!"

I know at the end that Jack's the one who is dead, but Ennis is the one I really keep aching for even after all this time. If that makes any sense.

Yeah, me too, and that's what I mean, too. At the end, Ennis has "survived" only by the most literal definition of the term.

[David In Indy]

In that case, I must have been in a coma. I'm not sure I even noticed the sign at all, let alone appreciated its added significance. That first time, I noticed exactly two things that I thought might possibly have additional significance, though I didn't know what it was, and neither one of them was that sign.

I never figured out the significance of the sign either.

Kudos to Shuggy for noticing it and bringing it to our attention! 

You all may have been asleep or in comas, but I have watched Brokeback Mountain more than 100 times.

Hell, I must be DEAD.   

[Brown Eyes]

Wow, I never stopped to consider how that sign applies to the story and Jack and Ennis particularly.  But, it's very good.  It does seem to echo the situation with Jack and Ennis being "trespassers" and bearing the "consequences" in two different ways.

The sign seems very appropriate to an "old West" type atmosphere for the film.  It reminds me of the old signs such as "please don't shoot the piano player" etc. that you see sometimes in saloons and other similar venues in movies and plays about the old West.

[mvansand76]

What in the world does a bucking bronco on a license plate have to do with a trespassing sign?   

I have to admit I am as confused as you are!

[Penthesilea]

The first time I saw the movie, I noticed the sign and found it freakin' hilarious. But I was the only person in the theatre who laughed, because it was not translated/read out loud to the audience. Got me some strange looks 

From Katherine:
While also describing more or less what happens to Jack and Ennis, who "trepass" against society's rules.

This occurred to me the first time I saw the movie in English. Not at the beginning, when the sign is to be seen at Aguirre's trailer, but at the end of their summer. When Ennis crouches in the alley and one split-second before the scene cuts to his and Alma's wedding, the minister is already heard "And forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".

When I heard the word "trespasses" I thought immediately of the sign at the trailer. And suddenly it wasn't too funny anymore.
The fact that the love between Ennis and Jack, and living that love, was regarded as trespassing rules is sad, not funny.

Jack's the trespasser who is shot, Ennis is the survivor who is shot again:

• receiving the postcard stamped deceased (the first shot)
• then at the Twist farm, when OMT talks about "one other fella" (look at him in this very moment: heart-shot is the fitting descrption)
• the denial of Jack's ashes
• then when he finds the shirts (although finding the shirts is both: heartbreaking, but a blessing nonetheless)
• and finally in the end, when he is all alone in his trailer, swearing to empty, old shirts - and they are all which he has left.

So the sign sums it up, it's like a warning, a foreshadowing

This list reminds me of my very first impression of BBM. After seeing it, my friend and me could not talk about it. The only thing which was said was: this movie is completely different from any other movie I've ever seen (then we talked about Linda Cardellinni and ER).
When I came home, I said very few to my husband. But what I said was, that it is the saddest movie I've ever seen, because the pain finds no end. It goes on and on: after Jack's death, Ennis is as devasteted as one can be, he is simply finished. But the torture is not over yet. There comes another punch, and another, and another. This is so painful to watch.
I feel the same as Mel and Katherine: Jack is the one who ends up dead, but it's Ennis my heart aches for to no end 


.

[serious crayons]

I feel the same as Mel and Katherine: Jack is the one who ends up dead, but it's Ennis my heart aches for to no end 

I know this sounds stupid, but when I first got to imdb and saw all those posts from people who felt particularly sorry for Jack, I was surprised and confused. Sorry for Jack? Why?

And then I thought -- duh! -- oh yeah, he died. After spending at least half his life frustrated and lonely. I had been so focused on my sadness for Ennis, I'd hardly even thought about Jack's sad fate.

Full disclosure: This may have been slightly connected to my similar surprise at finding out how many people seemed to consider Jack the more attractive of the two.    But not entirely! Given that there's a nine-page thread on this forum considering whether Ennis would commit suicide, it seems reasonable to think of Ennis' fate as almost as bad as Jack's.

[Brown Eyes]

Penthesilea, that was one excellent post.  I love the parallel between the trespassing sign and the lines we hear the minister saying over the image of Ennis crying in the alley.  It adds tremendous weight to that sign, which does seem like something funny in the beginning.  It's one of those props/ elements in the film that gain meaning in hindsight.  It's the kind of detail and nuance that would be hard to understand fully with only one viewing.

Katherine, I understand what you mean about feeling more sorry for Ennis in some ways. Living with the tremendous pain and  extreme loneliness are obviously huge burdens. So, if he's the one who gets "shot again" according to the sign... what is the second shot?  He survives and "will be shot again."  Do we see the second shot in the film?  Or is that left outside the narrative of the fim?

[serious crayons]

So, if he's the one who gets "shot again" according to the sign... what is the second shot?  He survives and "will be shot again."  Do we see the second shot in the film?  Or is that left outside the narrative of the fim?

I interpret the second shot in a kind of vague, generalized way, as encompassing Ennis' whole experience of Jack's death: the shock of the postcard, OMT's revelation, the ashes, the shirts, the huge sadness of the northern plains, the endless grief and loneliness and regret. It's funny, even the sign leaves his fate kind of open-ended. In warning that "survivors will be shot again," it suggests they'll meet a fate almost as bad as the non-survivors -- a blast of pain and injury -- but it might not necessarily involve death.

[dly64]

For all the times I have watched BBM, I have never noticed the darn sign! I think I focus so intently on Jack and Ennis that I tend not to look at the things around them (when they meet for the first time and are in Aguirre's trailer). I know I have missed other things as well. Someone said (was it Mel??) they saw sheepskins in Aguirre's trailer? I haven't found them. I don't know if I am looking in the right place. If anyone knows, give me a clue. Has anyone seen something else that has not been that obvious?

.... I have seen these same signs here in Indiana for years... ever since I was a child. Indiana can have a real "red neck" mentality sometimes. Yes, I have seen those very same signs posted all across my state for as long as I can remember.

David - you are cracking me up! You really think there is a redneck mentality in some areas of good ol' Indiana?? Hmmmmm ..... Being a Hoosier myself I can definitely answer ... YES!!!!! 

[nakymaton]

Someone said (was it Mel??) they saw sheepskins in Aguirre's trailer?

It's the head of a mountain goat. It's... hmmm. I think it's behind Aguirre's desk. I haven't seen the movie in over a month, so I can't picture what's around it.

Someday I'm going to start a thread for pictures of odd things that we notice.

[dly64]

It's the head of a mountain goat. It's... hmmm. I think it's behind Aguirre's desk. I haven't seen the movie in over a month, so I can't picture what's around it.

Someday I'm going to start a thread for pictures of odd things that we notice. Mine will be all about the rocks.

Okay ... I've got to check out the goat!

BTW - you've got to start that thread! Like .... the game that is sitting on the floor at Jack and Lureen's house during the Thanksgiving fiasco. It looks like "Clue" to me! 

[Rutella]

BTW - you've got to start that thread! Like .... the game that is sitting on the floor at Jack and Lureen's house during the Thanksgiving fiasco. It looks like "Clue" to me! 

Would you believe I just had a quick look!! And I think you're right! That is if 'Clue' is the same game as 'Cluedo' in the UK? The one with Dr Mustard with the lead pipe in the library etc? (or redneck with the tire iron on the road  )

[Penthesilea]

Okay ... I've got to check out the goat!

BTW - you've got to start that thread! Like .... the game that is sitting on the floor at Jack and Lureen's house during the Thanksgiving fiasco. It looks like "Clue" to me! 

I see the goat every time, but I never saw a game lying on the floor in said scene  .
Just checked the screencaps at stripedwall. Yes, it is Cluedo (the one Rutella described).

Did you see the head of the goat meanwhile? It is not at the wall behind Aguirre, but at the wall to his right, when he sits at the table. So entering the trailer and facing the desk, the goat is at the left wall, the one with the door in it.

[SFEnnisSF]

Look at what is for sale at Michaels...

[2robots4u]

Shuggy...did you take the photo of the fishing hut?  Except for that horrible yellow mailbox, it's a great pic.  Regarding the discussion on the age of that sign...it has been around for many, many years, and I'm going back to at least 1950.  I remember seeing them in No. Carolina as a wee tot, when I accompained grandpa to fetch the cows home from the pasture.  Hillbillies (and they aren't just from Arkansas!) had them all over the hills, primarily to keep "revenurers" from finding the stills....for those of you who do not know, a still is a contraption used to make illegal alcohol, called "white lightin'" and other names I can't recall at the moment.  Stills were hidden deep in the woods, or underneath the house, particularily the henhouse, and usually only one or two members of the family knew it's whereabouts to protect it's whereabouts.  I still have cousins (and in the south, almost everyone in "the hills" is a cousin to everyone else) there, and I've had a taste of the liquor.  But I digress.......

The license plates don't bother me at all as they change all the time.  In California, there are newer cars using ancient plates, and with all the designs supporting various groups/organizations, one could spend a lifetime trying to figure it out.  I'm sure Lee knew the license plates would not be a significant point of interest (I guess he never figured some of our posters would figure it out sooner or later).

The vintage of the trucks is not really a noticeable point, except to those who are into that kind of trivia.  I remember reading a post somewere by one who really got over-excited because the truck Ennis gets out of at the beginning of the movie is, apparently, newer than the time of the scene, 1963.  But if you know nothing about truck year models, I don't see where it becomes an issue.

[Brown Eyes]

Look at what is for sale at Michaels...

LOL, so did you buy one?
 

[SFEnnisSF]

LOL, so did you buy one?
 

Thought about it.  On second thought I should go back and get it.... 

[Shuggy]

The first time I saw the movie, I noticed the sign and found it freakin' hilarious. But I was the only person in the theatre who laughed, because it was not translated/read out loud to the audience. Got me some strange looks 

Reminds me of a friend who went to a Bergman film ("Smiles of a Summer Night" perhaps?) in which an old man explains about love to a young man, but the subtitles were only a summary, and one Swede in the audience was laughing his head off.

[Shuggy]

Shuggy...did you take the photo of the fishing hut?  Except for that horrible yellow mailbox, it's a great pic. 

Thank you. Easy enough to fix the mailbox:

[Kelda]

lovin that your here at bettermopst and reviving this old thread Shuggy! Hope you are well!
xx

[Front-Ranger]

lovin that your here at bettermopst and reviving this old thread Shuggy! Hope you are well!
xx

I second that!!

[chowhound]

Sorry, I'm a relative newcomer here and only caught up with this thread in its revived state.

The reason for the wording of the sign on Aguirre's door, I believe, is because Ang Lee and Larry McMurtry came across a similar sign when traveling together to look at various locations in the Western States. Here is how Ang Lee describes it:

Lee: The location, we have seen it. We have traveled through it or [seen it in] a movie. I think it was more the people. Of course, they are always nice people. They are just like everybody here, except they are nicer, and I felt guilty that I was going to do a tough movie about them. [Laughs.] Something struck me, [with my] fresh eyes. Sorry to say—[the] eccentric[ity]. You go to a bar and just see the things that they hang up. I can't believe the things they hang up inside and outside of bars. So imaginary. I don't know how else to put it. Of course that will annoy a lot of Westerners, because [they'll say], “We have a lot of normal people.” There are two sides. One is like that. It's like [they] don't want [you] to go into their territory. I saw a sign in Wyoming—a “No Trespassing” sign. And it says, “Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.” [Laughs.]  Some characters are like that. If they hear you're coming with the Wyoming film commissioners, [they want] nothing to do with the state.

This extract forms part of an interview that Ang Lee gave AboutFilm in the December of 2005.

[Shuggy]

I second that!!

Thank you both kindly.

What made me think of Bettermost was that I was at a book launch on Tuesday (Men Alone - Men Together), and told the author about how BBM brought my man and me together {corrected}, if he wanted to include us in his second edition. We joke about NZ having only 2 degrees of separation - in fact there's a phone co. called 2 Degrees - so I know several of the people in the book.

(We've been together 75 months (6¼ years) on Monday - that's about 40 gay years. And yes, both still well and happy.)

[Kelda]

Thanks Chowhound!!

Sorry, I'm a relative newcomer here and only caught up with this thread in its revived state.

The reason for the wording of the sign on Aguirre's door, I believe, is because Ang Lee and Larry McMurtry came across a similar sign when traveling together to look at various locations in the Western States. Here is how Ang Lee describes it:

Lee: The location, we have seen it. We have traveled through it or [seen it in] a movie. I think it was more the people. Of course, they are always nice people. They are just like everybody here, except they are nicer, and I felt guilty that I was going to do a tough movie about them. [Laughs.] Something struck me, [with my] fresh eyes. Sorry to say—[the] eccentric[ity]. You go to a bar and just see the things that they hang up. I can't believe the things they hang up inside and outside of bars. So imaginary. I don't know how else to put it. Of course that will annoy a lot of Westerners, because [they'll say], “We have a lot of normal people.” There are two sides. One is like that. It's like [they] don't want [you] to go into their territory. I saw a sign in Wyoming—a “No Trespassing” sign. And it says, “Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.” [Laughs.]  Some characters are like that. If they hear you're coming with the Wyoming film commissioners, [they want] nothing to do with the state.

This extract forms part of an interview that Ang Lee gave AboutFilm in the December of 2005.