Author Topic: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor  (Read 11852 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« on: October 23, 2010, 03:55:08 pm »
LONDON – She's renowned for her precise, exquisite prose, but new research shows Jane Austen was a poor speller and erratic grammarian who got a big helping hand from her editor.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101023/ap_en_ot/eu_britain_jane_austen

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2010, 10:43:40 am »



Hmmph. There is a difference between 'grammatical misdemeanours' and SPELLING. Punctuation and the separation of paragraphs aren't grammar either, although these conventions make (grammatical) meaning more clear to the reader.

Maxwell Perkins was the editor for Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald and Thomas Wolfe.

So?

If Austen had never lived, would we even have heard about William Gifford today?

I think not.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/8080832/Jane-Austens-famous-prose-may-not-be-hers-after-all.html


Jane Austen's famous prose
may not be hers after all

She is the great English novelist renowned for her polished prose,
of whom it was once remarked: "Everything came finished from her pen."


By Anita Singh, Arts Correspondent
Published: 10:00PM BST 22 Oct 2010



Amongst Austen's grammatical misdemeanours was an inability to master
the 'i before e' rule



Yet Jane Austen couldn't spell, had no grasp of punctuation and her writing betrayed an accent straight out of The Archers, according to an Oxford University academic.

Prof Kathryn Sutherland said analysis of Austen's handwritten letters and manuscripts reveal that her finished novels owed as much to the intervention of her editor as to the genius of the author.

Page after page was written without paragraphs, including the sparkling dialogue for which Austen is known. The manuscript for Persuasion,  the only one of her novels to survive in its unedited form, looks very different from the finished product.

"The reputation of no other English novelist rests so firmly on the issue of style, on the poise and emphasis of sentence and phrase, captured in precisely weighed punctuation. But in reading the manuscripts it quickly becomes clear that this delicate precision is missing.

"This suggests somebody else was heavily involved in the editing process between manuscript and printed book," Prof Sutherland said.

The editor in question is believed to have been William Gifford, a poet and critic who worked for Austen's second publisher, John Murray.

"Gifford was a classical scholar known for being quite a pedant. He took Austen's English and turned it into something different - an almost Johnsonian, formal style," Prof Sutherland said.

"Austen broke many of the rules for writing 'good' English. Her words were jumbled together and there was a level of eccentricity in her spelling - what we would call wrong.

"She has this reputation for clear and elegant English but her writing was actually more interesting than that. She was a more experimental writer than we give her credit for. Her exchanges between characters don't separate out one speaker from another, but that can heighten the drama of a scene.

"It was closer to the style of Virginia Woolf. She was very much ahead of her time."

Amongst Austen's grammatical misdemeanours was an inability to master the 'i before e' rule. Her manuscripts are littered with distant 'veiws' and characters who 'recieve' guests.

Elsewhere, she wrote "tomatoes" as "tomatas" and "arraroot" for "arrowroot" - peculiarities of spelling that reflect Austen's regional accent, Prof Sutherland explained. "In some of her writing, her Hampshire accent is very strong. She had an Archers-like voice with a definite Hampshire burr."

Over 1,000 of these handwritten pages will be placed online from Monday as the culmination of a three-year project led by Prof Sutherland in collaboration with the Bodleian Libraries, King's College London and the British Library. The collection reunites the letters and manuscripts for the first time since 1845, when they were scattered by the terms of her sister Cassandra's will.

They range from fiction written in early childhood to the manuscript for Sanditon,  the novel that Austen was writing when she died in 1817. Sadly, the manuscripts for Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility  and Emma,  her most famous novels, were destroyed after being set in print.
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Offline Andrew

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2010, 11:44:04 am »
This kind of article usually makes me a little grumpy.  Once again a journalist, or yes an editor, has decided that the subject itself it not sexy enough for the general public so they inflate the topic.   Slight variations in spelling or punctuation are not interesting enough, but if you imply that Jane Austen's novels had a Secret Co-Author (without giving a single example of changed text), you have a shot at making that article one of the 'most emailed'.  It sounds sensational, so pass it on!!!  even if the person has no real interest in the subject.  If you go to the Telegraph link and look at the first comment, you see how such irresponsible writing invites some people to run off with the subject into the next county.

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2010, 11:50:43 am »


This kind of article usually makes me a little grumpy.  Once again a journalist, or yes an editor, has decided that the subject itself it not sexy enough for the general public so they inflate the topic.   Slight variations in spelling or punctuation are not interesting enough, but if you imply that Jane Austen's novels had a Secret Co-Author (without giving a single example of changed text), you have a shot at making that article one of the 'most emailed'.  It sounds sensational, so pass it on!!!  even if the person has no real interest in the subject.  If you go to the Telegraph link and look at the first comment, you see how such irresponsible writing invites some people to run off with the subject into the next county.


Exactly.

Me, I'm usually grumpy anyway; this article made me grumpier.  (I doubt this is my grumpiest --that will come after the week after next, I'm thinking.)

 :laugh:
"Tu doives entendre je t'aime."
(and you know who I am...)


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and Pee-wee in the 1990 episode
"Camping Out"

Offline Andrew

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2010, 12:05:17 pm »

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 12:32:44 pm »


Oh, let's be utterly Jane  and anglophilic and say--

We are feeling quite cross  today.

 ;D
"Tu doives entendre je t'aime."
(and you know who I am...)


Cowboy Curtis (Laurence Fishburne)
and Pee-wee in the 1990 episode
"Camping Out"

Offline Meryl

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2010, 12:40:06 pm »

Oh, let's be utterly Jane  and anglophilic and say--

We are feeling quite cross  today.

 ;D

 ;D
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline Andrew

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2010, 12:53:24 pm »
From Mansfield Park:

"Do not urge her, madam," said Edmund. "It is not fair to urge her in this manner. You see she does not like to act. Let her chuse for herself, as well as the rest of us. Her judgment may be quite as safely trusted. Do not urge her any more."

"I am not going to urge her," replied Mrs. Norris sharply; "but I shall think her a very obstinate, ungrateful girl, if she does not do what her aunt and cousins wish her—very ungrateful, indeed, considering who and what she is."

Edmund was too angry to speak; but Miss Crawford, looking for a moment with astonished eyes at Mrs. Norris, and then at Fanny, whose tears were beginning to shew themselves, immediately said, with some keenness, "I do not like my situation: this place is too hot for me," and moved away her chair to the opposite side of the table, close to Fanny, saying to her, in a kind, low whisper, as she placed herself, "Never mind, my dear Miss Price, this is a cross evening: everybody is cross and teasing, but do not let us mind them"; and with pointed attention continued to talk to her and endeavour to raise her spirits, in spite of being out of spirits herself. "

Offline Monika

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2010, 01:01:47 pm »
Mr Darcy isn´t taking this piece of "news" very well...

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2010, 02:34:32 pm »




From Mansfield Park:

"Do not urge her, madam," said Edmund. "It is not fair to urge her in this manner. You see she does not like to act. Let her chuse for herself, as well as the rest of us. Her judgment may be quite as safely trusted. Do not urge her any more."

"I am not going to urge her," replied Mrs. Norris sharply; "but I shall think her a very obstinate, ungrateful girl, if she does not do what her aunt and cousins wish her—very ungrateful, indeed, considering who and what she is."

Edmund was too angry to speak; but Miss Crawford, looking for a moment with astonished eyes at Mrs. Norris, and then at Fanny, whose tears were beginning to shew themselves, immediately said, with some keenness, "I do not like my situation: this place is too hot for me," and moved away her chair to the opposite side of the table, close to Fanny, saying to her, in a kind, low whisper, as she placed herself, "Never mind, my dear Miss Price, this is a cross evening: everybody is cross and teasing, but do not let us mind them"; and with pointed attention continued to talk to her and endeavour to raise her spirits, in spite of being out of spirits herself. "





Oh, no! Miss Fanny Price, look out! Those Crawfords  are dangerous.


[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNFjv28bO8I[/youtube]


Well, whew! That's all right, then!


[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgitQ9KOFOE&feature[/youtube]
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ayKvA419lY&feature[/youtube]




(I'm a weird contrarian; I usually loathe and detest Austen in the movies. But. I love this seductive bonbon, this oddity:  the 1999 version of 'Mansfield Park' written and directed by Patricia Rozema. I especially adore the casting: Frances O'Connor as Fanny Price, Jonny Lee Miller (!) as Edmund Bertram, Embeth Davidtz as Mary Crawford, Alessandro Nivola (the very Southern husband in 'Junebug'!) as Henry Crawford, James Purefoy as Tom Bertram, and Harold Pinter (!!!) as Sir Thomas Bertram.)
"Tu doives entendre je t'aime."
(and you know who I am...)


Cowboy Curtis (Laurence Fishburne)
and Pee-wee in the 1990 episode
"Camping Out"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2010, 04:05:43 pm »
Maybe William Gifford wrote Shakespeare.  8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2010, 06:06:40 pm »



Maybe William Gifford wrote Shakespeare.  8)




 :laugh:





 I love this seductive bonbon, this oddity:  the 1999 version of 'Mansfield Park' written and directed by Patricia Rozema. I especially adore the casting: Alessandro Nivola (the very Southern husband in 'Junebug'!) as Henry Crawford....



Strange sidenote:   :o



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Nivola

Alessandro Nivola
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alessandro Antine Nivola (born June 28, 1972) is an American actor, perhaps best known for his roles in the films Best Laid Plans, Jurassic Park III, Face/Off,  and the first two movies of the Goal!  trilogy.

Personal life

Nivola was born in Boston, Massachusetts. His father, Pietro S. Nivola, is a professor of political science who wrote the book Laws of the Landscape: How Policies Shape Cities in Europe and America,  and his mother is an artist. Nivola's paternal grandfather was the Italian sculptor Costantino Nivola and his paternal grandmother, Ruth Guggenheim, was a Jewish refugee from Germany. He has a brother, Adrian, and attended Phillips Exeter Academy, and earned a degree in English from Yale. Nivola married British actress Emily Mortimer in Chiltern, Buckinghamshire in January 2003; the couple have a son, Samuel John, born in Westminster, London, on September 23, 2003. They also have a daughter, May, born on January 15, 2010. They used to live in Los Angeles California in Echo Park. They are currently living in Boerum Hill Brooklyn New York. He had fellow actor Heath Ledger as a neighbor.

"Tu doives entendre je t'aime."
(and you know who I am...)


Cowboy Curtis (Laurence Fishburne)
and Pee-wee in the 1990 episode
"Camping Out"

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2010, 09:44:21 am »
I own Mansfield Park and enjoy watching it occasionally. But the Austen movie I like the most is Sense and Sensibility by our own Ang Lee. My least favourite Austen movies are the ones that involve that moony Mr. Darcy. Do I need to duck and cover now??
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Monika

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2010, 10:09:48 am »
I own Mansfield Park and enjoy watching it occasionally. But the Austen movie I like the most is Sense and Sensibility by our own Ang Lee. My least favourite Austen movies are the ones that involve that moony Mr. Darcy. Do I need to duck and cover now??
*throws lace cuffs at Lee*

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2010, 11:49:15 am »
*throws lace cuffs at Lee*

OMG, I've been cuffed!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2010, 11:54:44 am »

Oh, let's be utterly Jane  and anglophilic and say--

We are feeling quite cross  today.

 ;D

Are you sure you didn't morph into Eeyore in the night??

Quote
Eeyore stood by himself in a thistly corner of the Forest, his front feet well apart, his head on one side, and thought about things. Sometimes he thought sadly to himself, "Why?" and sometimes he thought, "Wherefore?" and sometimes he thought, "Inasmuch as which?" and sometimes he didn't quite know what he was thinking about.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2010, 08:37:04 am »


Are you sure you didn't morph into Eeyore in the night??


Quote
Eeyore stood by himself in a thistly corner of the Forest, his front feet well apart, his head on one side, and thought about things. Sometimes he thought sadly to himself, "Why?" and sometimes he thought, "Wherefore?" and sometimes he thought, "Inasmuch as which?" and sometimes he didn't quite know what he was thinking about.




 ;D
"Tu doives entendre je t'aime."
(and you know who I am...)


Cowboy Curtis (Laurence Fishburne)
and Pee-wee in the 1990 episode
"Camping Out"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2010, 08:45:51 am »
Anyone for Pride and Prejudice and Zombies?  ;D

I gotta read that one of these days.  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2010, 11:32:58 pm »
Anyone for Pride and Prejudice and Zombies?  ;D

I gotta read that one of these days.  :laugh:

My friend thought it horrendous.  It was basically Pride and Prejudice, interspersed with chapters where zombies attack.

She's going to try Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters and see if that isn't any better.  ;D

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2010, 10:21:04 am »
Anyone for Pride and Prejudice and Zombies?  ;D

I gotta read that one of these days.  :laugh:

My friend thought it horrendous.  It was basically Pride and Prejudice, interspersed with chapters where zombies attack.

She's going to try Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters and see if that isn't any better.  ;D

Isn't there another one, now, too, about vampires?  ???  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2010, 11:03:52 am »
Isn't there another one, now, too, about vampires?  ???  ;D

I've answered my own question: Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_and_Prejudice_and_Zombies
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Andrew

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2010, 08:38:07 pm »
Of the various works written to bounce off Austen, for me the most fun was the four-part British TV series 'Lost in Austen'.  It has some funny moments as both the modern Austen-lover and the Pride and Prejudice characters whose life she starts intruding in, have those mind-bender moments of past and present, cause and effect getting tangled together.  The premise, 'set' characters showing what they are made of as they are forced into unplanned circumstances and made to bend, is actually just an extension of the theme of all of Austen's novels.  The bending just goes a little further !  Jemima Rooper is fun as the conflicted yo-yo refugee from the twenty-first century.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2010, 06:56:05 pm »
On my way to the grocery store after work today, I passed by Giovanni's Room, our GLBT bookstore. In keeping with the season, the store had a window display of books of gay vampire stories. Prominently displayed was a (presumably new) book by Michael Thomas Ford.

The book is called Jane Bites Back.

The tag line on the cover reads, "It is a truth universally acknowledged that Jane Austen is still alive today ... as a vampire."

 :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Meryl

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2010, 01:22:18 pm »
Now this is my speed!  A video of "It's Raining Men" featuring those hot guys from all those Jane Austen flicks we all know and love.  Enjoy!  :D

http://austenacious.com/?p=2004
Ich bin ein Brokie...

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2010, 04:19:29 pm »
Whoa, thanks for that link, friend, that was much appreciated! It also reminded me how few JA films I've seen, I have to get busy! It's was Jane's birthday recently and I was lucky to catch a synopsis of her story on The Writer's Almanac. What an interesting life she led...did you know Jane was betrothed to an older landowning man and was able to get out of the marriage because of the launch of her writing career! Saved by the pen!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Monika

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2010, 04:26:11 pm »
Now this is my speed!  A video of "It's Raining Men" featuring those hot guys from all those Jane Austen flicks we all know and love.  Enjoy!  :D

http://austenacious.com/?p=2004
Ha! Love it! Thanks Meryl!
They had even thrown Mr Thornton into the mix!

Offline Meryl

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2010, 05:09:12 pm »
Glad you liked it, buds!  Of course I had to watch it again, just because... ;D
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2011, 07:21:04 pm »
I learned on Jeopardy! yesterday that Mr. Darcy was (is?) a vampire.

I'm not terribly surprised.  8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Meryl

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2011, 09:40:20 pm »
I learned on Jeopardy! yesterday that Mr. Darcy was (is?) a vampire.

I'm not terribly surprised.  8)

Hunh?
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 09:52:09 am »
I learned on Jeopardy! yesterday that Mr. Darcy was (is?) a vampire.

I'm not terribly surprised.  8)

Hunh?

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Darcy-Vampyre-Amanda-Grange/dp/1402236972

 ;D

Make that vampyre.  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2011, 02:33:20 pm »
Oh, puleeze!  ::)

Last night I watched the very entertaining film Becoming Jane with our own Anne Hathaway and with James McAvoy as her love Tom LeFroy. There is some speculation as to whether her affair with LeFroy ever did exist, but it's not completely fictional. And no, Tom LeFroy is not a vampire, or vampyre, although he did serve as the foundation for the character of Mr. Darcy!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 03:03:12 pm »
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Meryl

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2011, 09:52:24 pm »
Gads, no one and nothing is sacred nowadays.   ;)  :P
Ich bin ein Brokie...

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Re: Jane Austen had a lot of help from her editor
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2011, 12:36:42 pm »
Now I have the book The Sensibility Diaries by Emma Thompson about the making of Ang Lee's Sense and Sensibility. It's a great book so far. Why isn't there a Brokeback Diaries>:(
"chewing gum and duct tape"