What Happened???

[RouxB]

But yes, it falls back into the issue of parents continuing the cycle of behavior and attitude.

These kids obviously did not have parents who were strict with them or focused on imbuing in them a sense of self-responsibility and the importance of education.  My house, what music we listened to was strictly regulated.  If my parents didn't like it, we didn't listen to it.  We didn't like that rule, our ability to listen to the music at home was taken away.  Same for TV.  Those pants?  Who bought them for the kids?  Parents did.  Again, my parents also had a say in our wardrobes.  They didn't like it, we didn't get it.  That only changed when I started working and making my own money, then my parents helped me along with money management by no longer providing me with day to day essentials.  They didn't keep feeding me for free or doing my laundry for free, or paying for gas for the car or insurance.  That stopped and I had to pay for it myself, so my funds were always limited and thus I had to make hard decisions on what I wanted to spend my money on.

Obviously these parents are falling down in the raising of their children, but perhaps only because they were the same way.

I agree Del. Things get out of hand-got out of hand- because parents loosen control. I talk to friends who have pre-teen and teen daughters and they have a totally different (from me) idea of what is appropriate dress for their girls. Primarily because all the other girls are wearing the same thing. Never would have happened in my house.

I was a pretty quiet kid, not rebellious at all because I didn't feel rebellious and because I was pretty sure my mother was not gonna tolerate any kind of behavior. I went away to college at age 17 having been very sheltered, and I still didn't go buck wild because it just was not, has never been, my personality. No sex, no  drugs, a whole lot of rock and roll. I have always felt this responsibility to "represent" and making a fool of myself was not going to get that done.

[serious crayons]

But yes, it falls back into the issue of parents continuing the cycle of behavior and attitude.

These kids obviously did not have parents who were strict with them or focused on imbuing in them a sense of self-responsibility and the importance of education.  My house, what music we listened to was strictly regulated.  If my parents didn't like it, we didn't listen to it.  We didn't like that rule, our ability to listen to the music at home was taken away.  Same for TV.  Those pants?  Who bought them for the kids?  Parents did.  Again, my parents also had a say in our wardrobes.  They didn't like it, we didn't get it.  That only changed when I started working and making my own money, then my parents helped me along with money management by no longer providing me with day to day essentials.  They didn't keep feeding me for free or doing my laundry for free, or paying for gas for the car or insurance.  That stopped and I had to pay for it myself, so my funds were always limited and thus I had to make hard decisions on what I wanted to spend my money on.

Obviously these parents are falling down in the raising of their children, but perhaps only because they were the same way.

First, I should clarify that I myself am actually talking about all of kids these days, not just the kids in the photos early on in the thread. So that includes kids like mine, who live in a middle-class neighborhood and go to school with mostly middle-class kids (though also some very rich kids and some poor kids). So the following is going to be from a white, middle-class POV. I realize that many of my problems are different from and milder than those of parents in poorer communities. But there may be some commonalities.

My own kids do some of those things you all don't approve of. For example, they sag their pants and they listen to music I don't like. I suppose it is technically possible for me to try to stop it -- although keep in mind that there's no way for me to control the music they listen to when I'm not there, or for that matter on their iPods. As a single mom with two teenage sons, one of whom has behavioral issues, my life is already full of constant conflict over all kinds of different things. Do I want to add several other sources of conflict to my life in order to police what our culture doesn't bother policing? No, I don't. So I pick my battles. Sagging pants are not my favorite look, but they're the least of my problems.

Parents when we were young simply did not have as many challenges as parents today. Here are just a few of the ways that our culture has changed since you and I grew up:

-- When I was a kid, there was nothing on TV that wouldn't have been perfectly appropriate for a seven-year-old to watch. Now there are things I don't even want myself to see.

-- When I was a kid, we did not own a box in the study through which one could view any imaginable form of pornographic imagery, buy illegal and synthetic drugs (some of which can kill you), have conversations with strangers, and get into who knows what other kinds of trouble.

-- As I said before, the most shocking music ever got in my youth was very veiled references to sex and drugs. Now well-known, popular musical artists in average pop songs brag about crime and drugs and describe sex acts with no holds barred. And not only does nobody bat an eye, but those artists are hugely successful and critically celebrated. For example, here is a sample of the song "Bitch Suck Dick" by Tyler the Creator of Odd Future Wolfgang Kill Them All, who has been admiringly profiled in, among other places, the New York Times and the New Yorker, whose concerts are well-reviewed by mainstream publications. Tyler is 17 years old. This song is not at all unusual for Odd Future -- it's quite typical of their lyrical stylings:

[Intro: Jasper]
Aww shit
Three icy ass niggas from Odd Future doin' some crazy shit
By the way, we do punch bitches

[Verse 1: Jasper]
I'm swagging bitch, I'm iced out
Oh you mad bitch cause I'm laying on the couch
Smoke a blunt, fuck a bitch, in the butt, I'm bossing
Don't give a fuck, I never roll Slauson
I'm fly bitch, I should poke you in your eyelids
Got the burner bitch, bow, bow
You dead bitch, I'm hot as fuck
I ain't never cold, but I'm icy bitch

[Hook]
My bitch suck dick like she suck dick

[Verse 2: Tyler]
Got the bops in the house, socking bitches in they mouth
See my neck iced the fuck out (I'm getting money nigga)
At the fucking mall, 40 bitches on my nutsack
I pulled up on a mothafuckin' unicorn (I'm getting ponies nigga)
Wolf Gang nigga scream that 'till they mothafuckin' show me death
Golf Wang nigga, Free Earl better show some motherfuckin' respect
All this ice around my neck, all this ice around my dick
Gun to her head make your bitch massage my shoulders

[Hook]

[Verse 3: Taco]
Shut up bitch, suck my dick (Suck my nuts)
You fuckin' bop, you better swallow it
I got a chain with a fuckin' platinum plaque on it
Is that a hundred dollar bill? I'll shit on it
I bought a fuckin' whale, cause I'm ballin'
Your bitch work for me, she my dish washer
Swag on my dick, 30 thousand million, nigga

[Hook]

[Verse 4: Jasper]
You boppin' bitch (Question mark) You like this dick?
We all know why, cause you's a boppin' bitch
I got the burner, I pop you in your lip
Zoom-zoom, yeah, I'm going fast bitch
I'm loud as fuck, I'm ignorant
Punch a bitch in her mouth just for talkin' shit
You lurkin' bitch? Well, I see that shit
Once again I gotta punch a bitch in her shit
I'm icy bitch, don't look at my wrist
Because if you do, I might blind you bitch
Mount Everest ain't fuckin' with my fuckin' wrist
Fuck global warming, this the Ice Age bitch

[Outro]
Swag, swag, punch a bitch

http://rapgenius.com/Tyler-the-creator-bitch-suck-dick-lyrics


Parents of teenagers these days are already dealing -- to one degree or another -- with alcohol and drug use, pregnancy, STDs, cutting, eating disorders, truancy, trying to prepare their kids for colleges that are increasingly expensive and exclusive (the university in my state used to admit literally almost anybody -- now the average GPA is 3.72; it used to cost a couple thousand a year, now it's about 12 times that). Not to mention whatever problems the parents themselves may have with unemployment, health insurance, etc. Now, I realize that few of these problems are brand new, but some of them are worse now than they were in our youth.

When people say some variation of "it's up to the parents," what they're doing is pointing the finger somewhere else so they can let themselves and society off the hook. What they're doing is increasing the stress in the already stressed-out average family exponentially.

I'm not advocating censorship or laws against this stuff. What I'm saying is that the problem is far more complex than just overly permissive parents. What I'm saying is that it takes a village, and in our era the village has stopped taking any responsibility and has instead become part of the problem.


 

[RouxB]

My best friend growing up had a very religious, but very fun and spontaneous, mother. We had the best time growing up together as we both had some challenges-she with an alcoholic father and we with the only divorced parents in our circle of friends. As my friend aged she became more bound by her religious beliefs but remained a joy to be around. She had one of the best parenting styles of any one I have ever seen. Her girls are now 20 and 24. She was loving and affectionate but also very clear in her expectations. Well, her youngest decided in her second year of college to shack up with her boyfriend. This did not go over well with her parents. They cut her off financially. Told her if she was adult enough to live under a man's roof then she was adult enough to figure out her own way. My friend hadn't seen her child in a year and was heart broken but refused to back down. I totally admire her for this because she set up some rules and expectations that were very clear. The problem with many parents today is that they are unwilling to take the hard line.

Remove the cell phones, the mp3 players, the TVs the cash.

Maybe I watch too much Dr. Phil and Supernanny...

[Luvlylittlewing]

K, I know I said that parental failure is to blame for the way some of these kids are turning out, but I'm talking about something else, entirely.  I'm looking at Oakland and some of the neighborhoods therein, and I see parents who are absentee, drug addicted, abusive.  This is the kind of parental failure I'm talking about, not responsible parents like you who are doing their level best to raise their kids.  I know full well the challenges of today's parents, because I am a single mom.  I've felt so overwhelmed at times, but I've managed to put my daughter first, and I believe I've raised a pretty awesome young lady.  If I was strung out on drugs, out with a different guy every night getting high while my daughter raised herself, well, then, I'm a failure as a parent, IMHO.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Obviously these parents are falling down in the raising of their children, but perhaps only because they were the same way.

I think this is an important point. I think we're now into at least the second generation of people who themselves "had no raising" failing at raising kids.

[serious crayons]

Well, her youngest decided in her second year of college to shack up with her boyfriend. This did not go over well with her parents. They cut her off financially. Told her if she was adult enough to live under a man's roof then she was adult enough to figure out her own way. My friend hadn't seen her child in a year and was heart broken but refused to back down. I totally admire her for this because she set up some rules and expectations that were very clear. The problem with many parents today is that they are unwilling to take the hard line.

You're right about that. Personally, I would be unwilling to cut my child out of my life for choosing a lifestyle that conflicted with my own beliefs.

From what you say, though, it doesn't sound like your friend's rules actually kept her daughter from living with her boyfriend.

I myself have a friend whose parents took the hard line when she was a teenager. They forbid her to see her boyfriend, because he did drugs, among other things. They attempted to enforce this rule as best they could -- followed her out at night in the car with the lights off, called the cops at least once or twice.

My friend got pregnant and had an abortion at 14. She also used all manner of drugs and alcohol. So much, in her case, for the effects of strict parenting.

Today, she is doing great. Just finished hiking the Pacific Crest Trail by herself -- a five-month endeavor -- at 52. Has two adult sons who are doing well. She and I are also still friends with the boyfriend, who is also a successful, great guy.

Maybe I watch too much Dr. Phil and Supernanny...

Possibly. I've never watched Dr. Phil, but I'm familiar with his style. I have watched Supernanny, and those cases are impressive, but it's amazing what you can do when you're a TV crew who can cut and edit and be selective about what stories to show or not show.

I also have a foot-high pile of books by parenting experts on my shelf, so I'm pretty familiar with all the things they say to do. Saying them and doing them are two different things.

K, I know I said that parental failure is to blame for the way some of these kids are turning out, but I'm talking about something else, entirely.  I'm looking at Oakland and some of the neighborhoods therein, and I see parents who are absentee, drug addicted, abusive.  This is the kind of parental failure I'm talking about, not responsible parents like you who are doing their level best to raise their kids.  I know full well the challenges of today's parents, because I am a single mom.  I've felt so overwhelmed at times, but I've managed to put my daughter first, and I believe I've raised a pretty awesome young lady.  If I was strung out on drugs, out with a different guy every night getting high while my daughter raised herself, well, then, I'm a failure as a parent, IMHO.

True, M, and good point. We were talking about different things.

 

[delalluvia]

Parents when we were young simply did not have as many challenges as parents today. Here are just a few of the ways that our culture has changed since you and I grew up:

-- When I was a kid, there was nothing on TV that wouldn't have been perfectly appropriate for a seven-year-old to watch. Now there are things I don't even want myself to see.

-- When I was a kid, we did not own a box in the study through which one could view any imaginable form of pornographic imagery, buy illegal and synthetic drugs (some of which can kill you), have conversations with strangers, and get into who knows what other kinds of trouble.

-- As I said before, the most shocking music ever got in my youth was very veiled references to sex and drugs. Now well-known, popular musical artists in average pop songs brag about crime and drugs and describe sex acts with no holds barred. And not only does nobody bat an eye, but those artists are hugely successful and critically celebrated. For example, here is a sample of the song "Bitch Suck Dick" by Tyler the Creator of Odd Future Wolfgang Kill Them All, who has been admiringly profiled in, among other places, the New York Times and the New Yorker, whose concerts are well-reviewed by mainstream publications. Tyler is 17 years old. This song is not at all unusual for Odd Future -- it's quite typical of their lyrical stylings:


Parents of teenagers these days are already dealing -- to one degree or another -- with alcohol and drug use, pregnancy, STDs, cutting, eating disorders, truancy, trying to prepare their kids for colleges that are increasingly expensive and exclusive (the university in my state used to admit literally almost anybody -- now the average GPA is 3.72; it used to cost a couple thousand a year, now it's about 12 times that). Not to mention whatever problems the parents themselves may have with unemployment, health insurance, etc. Now, I realize that few of these problems are brand new, but some of them are worse now than they were in our youth.

When people say some variation of "it's up to the parents," what they're doing is pointing the finger somewhere else so they can let themselves and society off the hook. What they're doing is increasing the stress in the already stressed-out average family exponentially.

I'm not advocating censorship or laws against this stuff. What I'm saying is that the problem is far more complex than just overly permissive parents. What I'm saying is that it takes a village, and in our era the village has stopped taking any responsibility and has instead become part of the problem.

But see, yes, this is true, but do you HAVE to HAVE these things?  You have cable?  Stop it.  Don't want to stop it?  Put parental blocks on it.  Pretty easy solution. 

Don't want your kids surfing the net for porn or what not?  Don't have a computer.  If YOU need one, then buy one for yourself and don't let your child use it.  They need it for school?  Take them to the library.

The phone thing really annoys me.  Young teens are e-mailing each other naked pictures of themselves.  Was buying them a phone with that much capability necessary?  If they were my kids, I'd buy them a 'pay as you go' phone at the grocery story and put $20 on it.  All they can do is use it as a phone.  Problem solved.  They can't get invovled in cyberbullying or fall prey to such things because they are not connected.

Parents really have a lot more control than they think they do.

I remember a co-worker who was complaining about her life was so stressful - she had to work, and pick up the kids and take them to soccer practice and hockey and ballet, blah blah blah, and she just didn't have enough time, etc., etc.

I looked at her and said, "So take them out."

She just looked at me.

"You are obviously too busy for all these extra curricular activities, so take them out.  Let them play in the back yard with each other and the dog and neighborhood kids.  It'll make your life a lot easier and you know where your kids are."

She looked at me like I'd grown a 3rd arm.  Like I'd suggested she pack up the kids and go to the moon.

Her situation really was that easy to resolve,  she had that much control over her life, but she chose not to do it.

[serious crayons]

Her situation really was that easy to resolve,

Yes, it's quite amazing how easy it can be to solve other people's parenting problems. Heck, before I had kids of my own I could have solved just about everybody's.

[RouxB]

You're right about that. Personally, I would be unwilling to cut my child out of my life for choosing a lifestyle that conflicted with my own beliefs.

I didn't say she cut her daughter out of her life, she just refused to support her financially for a choice she knew would have huge consequences. Her daughter was pissed and wouldn't talk to her. That's just kid blackmail and too many parents fall for it. There were no rules about what she could and couldn't do as an adult, just consequences. They didn't forbid her from living with her boyfriend. Her children grew up knowing there were consequences to their behavior. They made some  bad choices, as most of us do, but weren't surprised when thoses choices came with repercussions.

When kids know that there won't be consequences for their behavior- both good and bad- there is no incentive to change or continue it.

Yes, it's quite amazing how easy it can be to solve other people's parenting problems. Heck, before I had kids of my own I could have solved just about everybody's.

I think it takes raising a child to appreciate how difficult it is but it doesn't take being a parent to see poor parenting decisions.

I think Del is absolutely correct-kids have such a sense of entitlement these days. They don't have to have all these things and if they can't behave in a responsible manner and follow some basic rules then their toys supplied by the parents get repo'd. Strict parenting and effective, consistent parenting are not the same thing. I don't know anything about your friend so I can't say a thing about the effectiveness of the parenting. Good parents have kids that make poor choices but I think wimpy parenting is becoming too much of the norm.

[milomorris]

http://rapgenius.com/Tyler-the-creator-bitch-suck-dick-lyrics

Yeah. I was sitting in my after-work watering hole back in the fall, and someone played this on the jukebox.

You're right, Katherine. There are so many elements, and sources that have contributed to "what happened" that its a sociologist's dream come true.

It not just parents. It never has been. You're correct that in past generations the problems were less complex, and therefore parents were more easily able to control, monitor, filter, and explain the greater world to their children. For example, when I was young, the only TV in the house was in the living room. If a man on a prime time drama (think Dallas) was cheating on his wife, my grand father would make a disapproving grunt, and shake his head, whenever there was a scene between the man and his mistress. Whether he knew it or not, he was sending me a message that cheating was wrong, and fidelity was right.

Back in the day, the media would police itself to far greater extent than they do today. A magazine ad showing a woman (or man) who was too scantily clad would be rejected by the editor. A news story that was too graphic in its description of a rape, murder,or car accident would be sent back to the reporter for a re-write. Hollywood had its famous Production Code.

Politics can also contribute to "what happened." When boys see some of the the wealthiest, most powerful men on the earth committing crimes, getting minimal sentences, then making even more money on books and TV appearances when they get out, that makes it all seem not so bad. Desirable even. When girls see what they can get from these men if they possess the right "qualities," that provides an incentive for them to be that way, and look at men as little more than profit centers. Politics has taught our society that if you don't like something, you should form a protest against it. The targets used to be governments and specific officials, or a corporation being protested by a union. The idea of protest devolved to the point where it was OK to vandalize the clothing of a private citizen if s/he walked down the street wearing fur. People even feel they have to right to publicly humiliate me if I light a cigarette on the street (they never try that again). Yet I have seen people walk down the street smoking a joint, and even one who took a hit from a crack pipe on the subway with not a word uttered by the surrounding citizens.  

One major element that has all but disappeared from the social landscape is vigilance. As I said earlier, the last thing we wanted to hear when we were young was , "I'm gonna tell your mother..." Nowadays people seem afraid to criticize. We have created a culture where you're not allowed to say anything negative to anybody else. I was talking to a public school teacher who was blamed for a student's bad grades by the child's parents. Somehow, they made it her fault. David and I were Christmas shopping in a suburban Strawbridge and Clothier years ago. The store had a toy train set up on the ground floor in front of the escalator. The display had a short, plexiglass barrier running around it. There was a little boy reaching over the barrier, and every time the train ran past him, he would knock the last car off the tracks. David told the little boy not to do that. The child's mother--who was preoccupied with something else--turned to David and started spouting obscenities at him. Lucky for her, I was already half way up the escalator. We used to have villagers who were interested in helping to raise its children. Not so much any more.

So no. Its not just parents.