Author Topic: What Happened???  (Read 21265 times)

Offline Kelda

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2012, 05:14:29 pm »
Well, I sure didn't. But everyone has a different experience, because everybody has different kids and different other circumstances. For some parents it really is much easier than it has been for me. And for some parents it's much harder.

But it's also really rewarding, too. I've never met anyone who regrets it.


   

But if it doesn't simply think of it as a work in progress.  Because after all.  Aren't we all that?

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2012, 05:57:02 pm »
She as most parents do, considered themself a "perfect" parent.  Then when the younger one came along, she realized, that it was the children, that were perfect, not her parenting.  lol..

So true! I have two sons. They are both energetic and strong-willed. But they are also very different, and one is far more challenging than the other. I sometimes think of how much easier my life would be if both of my sons were like my younger one. And yes, knowing me -- and knowing human nature -- I would probably take all of the credit for that, and I would give other parents lectures on how easy it would be to fix their problems by simply doing things differently.

If I had two sons exactly like my older one, I would have long ago faked my own death and moved to Tahiti.   :laugh:





Offline delalluvia

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2012, 08:10:50 pm »


But the things delalluvia mentioned? Subscribing to cable TV? Owning a computer? Signing your kid up for organized sports? Those aren't poor parenting decisions. Those are lifestyle choices that come with many upsides as well as downsides, and that everyone else in the culture is entitled to make. In the the case of organized sports, they're decisions that were actually made, presumably, to benefit the kids: to keep them physically fit and occupied with something healthy, to cultivate their skills and interests.

But do they?  If the child isn't going to be professional soccer player or ballet dancer, why in the world do they need to start these classes at the age of 4?  Keep them home.  There's absolutely no reason to start them so young.  You want your kids to be healthy?  How about the PARENTS play with them and take them out on bicycle trips or play ball with them and do their jobs to keep them occupied?  Don't know about you, but between school, homework and chores, I barely had time to play when I got home.  

But they want to play soccer, but it's inconvenient for the parent's life?  

Guess what?  Kids need to learn that they don't get everything they want in life.    

It's really just that easy.

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The reason it takes being in these situations to fully appreciate them is the same reason the phrase "walk a mile in my moccasins" came about. It's very easy to see what you would do as a parent when the children themselves are abstractions, when you haven't experienced the pressures and stresses that come from knowing the actual kids and trying to raise them, not in an empty room or an ivory tower, but in a complex society. In this abstract world, an acquaintance can spend two minutes thinking about what a parent has spent five or ten or fifteen years struggling with and instantly see a simple solution that would solve everything that somehow the parent is too idiotic (or wimpy) to discern. In this abstract world, children are who they are because of your parenting actions, never the other way around. I know, because I used to live in a world like that myself. And BTW, it's not only non-parents who live in that abstract world; it's also parents who did such and such with their kids and assume anybody else can do the same thing with any other kids under any other circumstances and achieve the same results.

And there is the saying, "it's easier to see a burning building from the outside than the inside."  Parents all too often make their own problems.  Especially when dealing with their kids.  They cannot set aside their love and emotional worries to actually be firm and disciplined when they need to be.   You see this all the time.  How many child-care providers tell you that they know the kids who are spoiled because their parents feel guilty about putting them in childcare?  Or they spoil their kids because their parents feel guilty about their divorce?  You think it would be the most commonsensical thing in the world for parents NOT TO DO THAT to their kids to compensate, but even the smartest parent can and do do this because they cannot discipline themselves when it comes to their kids.  

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When you're deciding whether to have computers and cell phones and cable TV, should it matter that the kid will be surrounded by other kids who have all of those things and will be talking about them constantly? Not if the kid is an abstraction. An abstract world is one where your word is law, you say no, your abstract kid will frown and maybe even quietly grumble a bit but that's the end of it and you go blithely on about your business.

Sounds like rationalization to me crayons.  Poor kids don't have this option of having to choose between cable and fancy phones and internet connections, they can't afford it, period.   And they get along and cope just fine.


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When the kids are an abstraction, it's easy to decide that instead of signing them up for soccer and ballet you will "let them play in the back yard with each other and the dog and neighborhood kids." You can safely assume that they aren't particularly talented at soccer and ballet and aren't longing to do those things, that they don't have close friends who do those things, that your back yard is safe and pleasant, that the kids will play obediently in it even if you leave them unsupervised, that there are other kids in the neighborhood who aren't in programs themselves who will join them, that the back yard is big enough that they can actually get exercise in it and stay fit, that they can do the same thing in the back yard day after day and stay stimulated and entertained, that the back yard will still be all they need year after year as they become older and have no experience with any other sport or activity. Heck, when it's all an abstraction you can imagine that even if they get sick of playing on the same swingset or throwing the dog the same stick after a couple of weeks they can just study grass or clouds or ants or the dog's fur or something -- the whole world is like a science lesson and by gosh, they're kids, they should appreciate it. Simple!

Who's the parent?  You or them?

Kids will adapt.  They may complain, but they adapt.  And why?  They don't have a chioice.  They're not in charge and this needs to be made plain to them.  I have to keep reminding my sister of this because I can tell whenever I have to babysit.

Her to her daughter:  "Honey, are you ready for bed?"

What a loaded question.  What do you think the kid is going to say?  And she does, so they end up in a back and forth 'discussion'.

When I babysit I say, "Time for bed, go get ready."

Period.  No discussion.

Again, how about poor kids?  They don't even have a house that has a yard and they're just going to have to not exercise unless it's at school during PE.  They still do have PE, don't they?

If not, guess they're just going to have to be out of shape.  Oh, the humanities.  ::)  C'mon crayons, this is all more rationalization.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2012, 09:11:45 pm »
 How about the PARENTS play with them and take them out on bicycle trips or play ball with them and do their jobs to keep them occupied?

Oh yeah. Because THAT'S not at all time consuming for your coworker. And keep in mind that I'm a parent who actually did all of those things. But it came with a price, one that I'm still paying today.

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It's really just that easy.

Nope. Believe it or not, it's really not nearly as easy as it might seem to you.

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Poor kids ... get along and cope just fine.

Nope. They don't.  They take drugs and sell drugs and get pregnant and wind up in prison in vastly larger proportions than middle-class and rich kids. I'm not saying it's because they were denied computers, although believe me, nobody who knows anything about education thinks that the computer gap between rich and poor kids is a good thing. But don't ever romanticize poor kids' childhoods.

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C'mon crayons, this is all more rationalization.

Delalluvia, you honestly have some good points. I'm sure there are cases where parents could be firmer with their kids. But most of those points, you should know, are completely familiar to any parent. You are not saying anything that every parent in the country hasn't heard a million times, from their in-laws and other parents and parenting gurus and people who don't have kids but who love to say simplistic things like "Who's the parent -- you or them?"

The larger fact is, you simply don't know what it's like to raise kids. You just don't. That fact is glaringly obvious from your posts -- not just because you keep saying that this or that simplistic idea is "just that easy" but because you only see one side of things and overlook others that you aren't aware of and consequently get all kinds of things wrong. So although I know we could go back and forth ad infinitum about this, for page after page of thread, I'm not going to do that. It's not worth my time, and I honestly think it's not worth yours, either. To be honest, I have no interest in arguing about the best way to do something that I have done for 17 years -- actually pretty successfully, if I do say so myself; my kids are bright and healthy and popular and personable and successful in school -- and that as a professional writer I have also read about and talked to "experts" about and written about ... with somebody who's never done it at all and yet thinks she knows everything there is to know about it.



Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2012, 09:26:55 pm »
Just stumbled across this on a parenting blog and thought it seemed germane, especially Nos. 6 and 7.



http://thestir.cafemom.com/pregnancy/132996/10_questions_you_should_ask

10 Questions You Should Ask Yourself Before Having Kids

There is plenty of sunshine and roses that comes with parenthood, but as any parent with an ounce of honesty will tell you, it's also the toughest gig you'll ever have. Sure, all of those family pictures your friends post on Facebook look like the stuff of fairy tales, but behind every shining little face is the truth: They will change your lives in ways you could never imagine, and not all of those ways are good.

So while clocks may be ticking and ovaries are aching for a little babe, it's best that people go into parenthood with their eyes wide open. Because the fact is not everyone can handle it nor should they attempt to do so. For some, it's just not the right time in their life, and waiting is a better option. For others, it should probably just be a big permanent never. To determine how prepared you are to become a parent, here are 10 very important questions you should ask yourself before becoming one:

1.  Do you like to sleep in?

If your answer is yes, consider getting a gerbil. If no, continue to the next question.

2. Are you totally cool with someone throwing up all over you? Repeatedly?

If yes, then I question your sanity for the job. If no, don't worry, you'll get used to it.

3.  Can you go three days without sleep and still drive a car?

If you answered no, make sure you live by a reliable means of public transportation before getting pregnant. If yes, I want whatever it is you've got.

4.  Do you require privacy to do your business in the bathroom?

If yes, prepare for problems, and invest in a good laxative.

5. Are you prepared to say goodbye to the sound of yourself thinking for at least the next 18 years?

If no, don't worry, you will quickly forget that such a sound even existed. There are plenty of new and unusual sounds that will take its place (Mommmmmmyyyyyyyyyyyy!).

6. Do you have a whole list of things you'll NEVER do as a parent? Do you hate to be wrong?

If yes to both, start by ripping that list up right now. 

7. Do you love input from strangers on things that are none of their business and adore being judged for pretty much every move you make?

If no, proceed with caution and start practicing deep breathing techniques.


8. Can you clean up puke, change 10 crib sheets, make dinner, and help someone do homework while running a fever of 103?

Okay, no one thinks they can.

9. Do you like to fly on airplanes and eat in restaurants without the burning eyes of hatred from hundreds of glaring strangers searing into your skin?

If yes, think of adopting a 17-year-old. People usually start to be kinder to kids in public around that age.

10.  Are you good at scraping things off of floors -- like oh, say ... your PRIDE?

This is pretty much the biggest deal breaker. Your personal pride all but evaporates it comes to leaking breasts, public potty accidents, and children who blurt out exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time. The best you can do is scrape up the scraps and carry on.

Bonus question: Are you prepared for the most rewarding and amazing roller coaster ride of your life that's worth any of the hard stuff?

If yes, then get to procreating, because the rest of it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2012, 09:33:34 pm »
Oh yeah. Because THAT'S not at all time consuming for your coworker. And keep in mind that I'm a parent who actually did all of those things. But it came with a price, one that I'm still paying today.

Nope. Believe it or not, it's really not nearly as easy as it might seem to you.

If parents don't have the time to play with their kids even a bit, then people need to question why parents even bothered to have them in the first place?  Just so they could say that they have but ship them off to soccer practice or whatever at every opportunity?

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Nope. They don't.  They take drugs and sell drugs and get pregnant and wind up in prison in vastly larger proportions than middle-class and rich kids. I'm not saying it's because they were denied computers, although believe me, nobody who knows anything about education thinks that the computer gap between rich and poor kids is a good thing. But don't ever romanticize poor kids' childhoods.

And this is because mommy and daddy were big meanies who didn't buy their kids electronics?

Um, yeah, whatever.  Most everyone I grew up with were poor crayons or blue collar working class.  They were the working poor.  Their parents made enough money to keep roofs over their heads, food on the table and clothes on their kids's back. Cable TV?  What a laugh.  Who could afford that?  Soccer practices?  Uniforms?  Ballet class?  Yeah, right.  As my mother used to say, "We're not rich" and we went to play with our cousins in the empty lots in the neighborhood.  


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Delalluvia, you honestly have some good points. I'm sure there are cases where parents could be firmer with their kids. But most of those points, you should know, are completely familiar to any parent. You are not saying anything that every parent in the country hasn't heard a million times, from their in-laws and other parents and parenting gurus and people who don't have kids but who love to say simplistic things like "Who's the parent -- you or them?"

The fact that you admit there are parents who aren't firm with their kids makes my case.

My best friend is currently dating one.  Her boyfriend is a divorced father of one.  He and his ex-wife are educated professionals and right now, their only son is ready to go to a regular high school from Montessori.  My friend the teacher thinks this is a great idea since in her professional opinion, it's only hurting their son to continue at Montessori.  He will be behind the other students academically and will have to learn to discipline himself to catch up.  

The kid knows this and doesn't want to go.  He'd rather stay the Big Fish in his small pond than actually have to work hard at his education.

Should be a no-brainer, right?  Parents should do what's best for the kid in the long run and send him to a regular high school, right?

NOPE.  Both parents are feeling guilty about the divorce and are currently talking themselves into letting him stay where he is.

My best friend keeps her opinion to herself as she bites her tongue listening to her BF convince himself so he will believe it was his own decision and not his kid calling the shots - as he makes his son a sandwich using the only bread his son will eat - an artisan bread from a local gourmet store.  :P ::)

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The larger fact is, you simply don't know what it's like to raise kids. You just don't. That fact is glaringly obvious from your posts -- not just because you keep saying that this or that simplistic idea is "just that easy" but because you only see one side of things and overlook others that you aren't aware of and consequently get all kinds of things wrong. So although I know we could go back and forth ad infinitum about this, for page after page of thread, I'm not going to do that. It's not worth my time, and I honestly think it's not worth yours, either. To be honest, I have no interest in arguing about the best way to do something that I have done for 17 years -- actually pretty successfully, if I do say so myself; my kids are bright and healthy and popular and personable and successful in school -- and that as a professional writer I have also read about and talked to "experts" about and written about ... with somebody who's never done it at all and yet thinks she knows everything there is to know about it.

I lived with my sister for two years in college.  She wasn't there a lot with going to school and work full time.  I was there most of the time.  Guess who was helping raise her daughter?  Yep, me.  

It is that easy, to be disciplined with your kids.  I was raised in that sort of environment, so I DO know what it's like.   And guess what?  Yes, my parents raised successful happy kids.  I know many parents like to imagine that their jobs are horribly difficult and no one else who isn't a parent can understand, etc., etc., but honestly, quite a few single people do it because they're around kids quite a bit - whether because they're family or they belong to their SOs.

Look at the Duggars.  They hand over the raising of their younger kids to their older kids.  A 13 year old is currently helping raise kids.  Tell me again, how difficult the job is?      

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2012, 09:58:06 pm »
It is that easy, to be disciplined with your kids.  I was raised in that sort of environment, so I DO know what it's like.   And guess what?  Yes, my parents raised successful happy kids.  I know many parents like to imagine that their jobs are horribly difficult and no one else who isn't a parent can understand, etc., etc., but honestly, quite a few single people do it because they're around kids quite a bit - whether because they're family or they belong to their SOs.


  With the greatest respect my dear, this is highly pompous sounding and self aggrandizing.  To say that you are as experienced, and able to raise children, because "you have been around them quite a bit."  Is is simply delusional.  You can "be around them," then send them home to mama, or papa, or both.  They don't have that option.  There is no sending them, anywhere, except for the few occasions that someone other than the parent agrees to give them a respite.  If it is an hour, or a day, or a week, or a month.  It is still a respite.  Raising a child, is a 24 hour a day, and night job.  For the minimum of 18 yrs.  No vacations, or quitting involved.  That child is your primary duty, for the next 18 years of your life.  When they are ill, when they are tired, when they are just frustrated.  Not to mention all of the other issues that I made in my earlier post, as to the differing kinds of special issues they may have.  It is a CONSTANT... so before you give someone a speech about how you know all the simple answers to it.  I think you might, want to consider how dedicated that responsible parents are.   How unappreciated they are by other people with these kinds of attitudes.  It is hard work, and takes every fiber of your being sometimes.  Not only  because they are spoiled brats, or little annoying demons.  It takes love, it takes patience, it takes above all dedication.  Personally I tend to never criticize other folks parenting skills, unless they are annoying me.  I never say it to them.  I know personally what they are going through.  The amount of rolled eyes, or frowns that they receive. 
   We have overall raised a large population that think that they know best how others should do many things.  Not simply how to raise children, but how to vote, how to handle their birth control, how to dress or do all the other things in life. Many of the others in our population deem themselves more qualified to tell them how to do these things..    i think we would be better advised to handle our own situation, and have others do the same.  Then when other peoples children's behaviors annoy us, we will realize, it is their problem to fix not ours  If I don't approve of it.  then I should remove myself from the situation.  I am usually in an airplane, restaurant or a movie, when that kind of happening occurs.  I think it is unfortunate that some people don't have someone to help them, during the chiild rearing years. They, then must take the children with them, and risk the wrath of the onlookers when those kinds of incidents happen.  I am more than willing to admit it is (my problem,) that I am so judgmental and  that it annoys me.  They can't help the melt down that their child is experiencing.  Then I check myself, and think,,, "aw I feel bad for them. " Hope it doesn't last too long.  Which by the way, it has been my experience to say, it usually doesn't. 

   



     Beautiful mind

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2012, 09:59:31 pm »
It is that easy, to be disciplined with your kids.  I was raised in that sort of environment, so I DO know what it's like.   And guess what?  Yes, my parents raised successful happy kids.

With all the bitching you've done about your sister on this site? Hmmm.

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Look at the Duggars.  They hand over the raising of their younger kids to their older kids.  A 13 year old is currently helping raise kids.  Tell me again, how difficult the job is?      

I guess it's a good thing I'm not a parent, because if I were, I'd find that remark smart-alecky and insulting. What's next, "It's so easy a caveman can do it"?

And you do say that 13-year-old is helping, not doing it herself.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2012, 10:04:26 pm »
If parents don't have the time to play with their kids even a bit,

You misread my post. I didn't say anything about not "even a bit."

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And this is because mommy and daddy were big meanies who didn't buy their kids electronics?

You might want to go back and reread my post.

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Um, yeah, whatever.  Most everyone I grew up with were poor crayons or blue collar working class.  They were the working poor.  Their parents made enough money to keep roofs over their heads, food on the table and clothes on their kids's back. Cable TV?  What a laugh.  Who could afford that?  Soccer practices?  Uniforms?  Ballet class?  Yeah, right.  As my mother used to say, "We're not rich" and we went to play with our cousins in the empty lots in the neighborhood.  

Uh-huh. And think back ... what did I say about the importance of community?

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The fact that you admit there are parents who aren't firm with their kids makes my case.

Nope. You missed my point.

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quite a few single people do it because they're around kids quite a bit - whether because they're family or they belong to their SOs.

Look at the Duggars.  They hand over the raising of their younger kids to their older kids.  A 13 year old is currently helping raise kids.  Tell me again, how difficult the job is?

Um, delalluvia? Babysitting and "being around kids" is not parenting. Not for sooooo many reasons. To take just one, the way kids behave around their babysitters and others is very very different than the way they do around their parents.

Sorry, delalluvia, but the more you post, the more you sound like you don't know what you're talking about.
 



With all the bitching you've done about your sister on this site? Hmmm.

I guess it's a good thing I'm not a parent, because if I were, I'd find that remark smart-alecky and insulting. What's next, "It's so easy a caveman can do it"?

And you do say that 13-year-old is helping, not doing it herself.


Thank. You. Jeff.  :) :-*


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: What Happened???
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2012, 10:09:26 pm »
Thank. You. Jeff.  :) :-*

You're welcome, Katharine.  :)

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.