Author Topic: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon  (Read 22577 times)

Offline B.W.

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What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« on: July 18, 2013, 01:05:19 pm »
What is your take on the BBM phenomenon and what it says about the power of this story?

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 01:57:39 pm »
For me, there is a lot of punch in the timing of its telling and the time period it was set in. It serves as an acknowledgement of same sex love not being a new thing, or a fad, but an ongoing, at time repressed aspect of humanity. The repression there of created a tremendous amount of grief, and the story is a catharsis of that grief.

Proulx said the characters became very real for her, as it did for a lot of people. They are real. They are us.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2013, 10:26:01 pm »
I like the way you said that Tru!
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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2013, 08:44:33 am »
I like the way you said that Tru!

I agree, very well said!


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Offline tampatalon

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 03:35:03 am »
For me I will always remember BBM was the leading edge of my person activisism.

TT
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Offline x-man

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 11:37:46 am »
Has anyone else gone through this?:  I just cannot watch BBM any more.  I went through a long period when I watched it every day, then almost every day, and always cried at the end.  Then I discovered BBM Radio and began listening to it all the time, crying through the songs that reminded me of the film.  Then I got the short story and it got worse.  I would read the story and then watch the movie--double the crying.  Now I was like everyone else here, I could quote from memory every line from the movie or film.  I saw new things every time I watched and read, and learned about new things from other BetterMostians.  I discovered I was not alone.  ("Ah so other people believe that Randall really did proposition Jack," etc.)

But now I find that the crying never did go away.  Watching or reading it is so emotionally draining I just can't handle it.  So I stopped watching it.  Will that go away?  Is it just me?  I miss BBM. 
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Offline Mandy21

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 12:06:52 pm »
The folks that have replied to your post have all been active, contributing members here pretty much since the git-go some 8 years ago, so I'd say yes, we were all quite emotionally affected by this film.  As to "drained", speaking for myself, I can't say I ever felt that way at the end of the film or book.  I've always looked at it as 'it's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all'.  At least, I *hope* that's what Ennis is thinking as he's closing the closet door.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 02:25:52 pm »
I remember crying the first time I read the story. But that was back in October of 1997...I didn't cry at the end of the movie when I first saw it but I felt and looked stunned. My daughter, who took me to the movie, asked me if I was alright. Since I knew the story and how it would end, I didn't cry, but I was shocked that it was such a powerful movie. I was expecting much less.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2013, 02:38:57 pm »
I remember crying the first time I read the story. But that was back in October of 1997...I didn't cry at the end of the movie when I first saw it but I felt and looked stunned. My daughter, who took me to the movie, asked me if I was alright. Since I knew the story and how it would end, I didn't cry, but I was shocked that it was such a powerful movie. I was expecting much less.

Stunned is the word for it. I even deliberately reread the story before I saw the movie, so I was even shocked to recognize bits of dialog here and there that I knew came directly from Annie Proulx. I didn't cry, either, but I sure was stunned at the power of the film and the faithfulness of the adaptation and the gut-wrenching truthfulness of the performances.
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Offline southendmd

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 03:20:01 pm »
I've said this before, but I was a complete BBM virgin when I first saw it.  No story, no trailer, nothin'.  All I can say is I'm glad that I always carry a handkerchief, cuz I sure needed it.  Along with everyone else in the theatre that day.

For the next umpty-nine times I saw it, it was waterworks from the Lake Scene onward, with an extra gasp/gulp at Jack's murder scene. 

Now, it's more peaceful and I'm grateful for that.  It's like visiting old friends.  I tend to see something new each time. 

Nowadays, I only watch it maybe once a year. 

Offline x-man

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 07:28:07 pm »
Thanks, guys.  Maybe my over-amped reaction to the movie and story is based on my own experience.  It was SO close to home.  Unlike with Ennis, to my sorrow, my Jack is not in my dreams.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline x-man

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 04:34:21 pm »
I want to ask a question.  I am not being confrontational, nor do I want to start a row.  I really want to know:  What is the appeal of BBM to women?  Ennis and Jack are clearly only interested in each other.  Alma, Lureen, and Cassie are not well done by in the story and film.  I can easily--all too easily--identify either with Ennis or Jack.  Who do women identify with?  Do they pretend they are one of the men?  Is there more to it than that?  It's no good asking me to think about straight romantic films.  I watch them unfold, but I cannot relate to them at all.  Straight or lesbian erotic/romantic relationships are a total mystery.  I cannot change that.  But I still wonder if someone can explain to me how the BBM story can affect women.
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Offline Sason

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 06:01:35 pm »
I guess there are a thousand answers to that, x-man. Here's one:
Apart from the gay bit, there's so much in the characters of Ennis and Jack that can be universal and shared by other people, e.g. straight women.

For example, off the top of my head:
Jack: never got what he wanted/needed from any man; not his father, not his father-in-law, not from random men in bars, certainly not from Ennis. I'm sure a lot of straight women can relate to that. Also there's his hopeful and positive nature, his unability to quit a relationship that probably drained him emotionally more than it actually gave him.

Ennis: his total emotional locked-in-ness. Ennis was so genuinely unhappy that he didn't even know it. He had one chance to happiness, he couldn't take it. His self-hate.

There are so many universal themes in BBM: lost chances, regret, love, once-in-a-life-time, grief, societal pressure, emotional self-cencorship (for whatever reason), unability to combine inner life with outer.

I belive all these themes, and a million more, speak to all people in various degrees, regardless of gender or sexual orientation.
But I have no answer to why there aren't very many lesbian women or straight men among the brokies.

Then, of course, there is the exclusively gay experience that so many gay men around here have talked about; to see - maybe for the first time - their own life played out on the big screen.

That's the beauty of BBM: so multi-faceted, so many layers, so universal, so personal, so exclusive.


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Offline Mandy21

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2013, 09:51:29 am »
Lovely answer, Sason!  I would agree with all you said.  My reason was twofold: 1) it is a tragic, but hopeful, love story, and what girl doesn't love that?; and 2) HELLO????  Have you seen Heath and Jake???  Eye candy all over the screen for 2 hours and 23 minutes, yippee skippee.  :laugh:
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2013, 03:58:32 pm »
Sonja and Mandy have given wonderful answers and I have little to add. I might ask why gay men love I Love Lucy, The Wizard of Oz, Bewitched, and many other performances, but I won't. Suffice it to say that any work of great cinema or literature is loved and admired by a whole range of people,  not just people who are exactly like its characters.
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Offline Katie77

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2013, 05:39:00 pm »
Like you Paul, I did not know a thing about the story....except for the "gay cowboy" tag......I thought it was going to be set in the wild wild west, so I got my first surprise in the opening scene, when the year 1963 came up.

From there on in, I watched a life that I had lived, unfold...not one of the main characters, but one of the daughters.

Here was MY story, yet it wasn't my story, it was the story of the people in my life who had created my story. For the first time I was able to see it from their side, feel the emotions that they had felt...the anguish, the fear, the family committment, but especially the LOVE. It was gut wrenching, especially the end, when one was left alone, as was the case with my father.

The fact is, while I lived my story as a child and then as I got older, I really had never had anything or anyone show me how it would have been for the others...so as I sat and watched this movie, it all unfolded there in front of me like I was reading their secret diary or something. What it also showed me, was that I was not the only one who had lived in such a situation, that my story was not as unique as I had always thought it was. I had kept this part of my life secretive to so many people over the years, and here it was now, out for all to see and I had this feeling of relief that it was out there, and I wanted everyone to see it and feel it like I was.

There is no doubt it changed my future life, how fortunate I was to, so many years later, finally know how it all was back then. It was like my father talking to me from the grave, it was as if he waited till I was old enough to really understand, and unknown to me then, it also gave me the opportunity to meet with and talk with so many others who were like him, who also had their own story to tell.



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Offline x-man

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2013, 08:01:56 am »
Sason.  Thank you very much for your full and open explanation.  I now have a much better idea of why BBM would appeal to women.  I was so focused on the central love story, I could see nothing else.  Now I can. :)

Mandy21.  "and (2) HELLO? Have you seen Heath and Jake?"  Indeed I have.  I looked away from your words on my screen up at the large BBM wall posters here in my bedroom.  Ennis staring down at me is the first thing I see when I wake up in the morning.  (BTW, I asked a friend when he first saw them, "What do these posters say--I'm gay? or gay with a 'thing' for cowboys?"  "The latter," he replied.  Well, it's not true!  The closest I have ever gotten to a cowboy is hooking up a couple of times with the bass player in a country & western band from Manitoba.)  Mandy, you mean straight women can look at gorgeous men the way gay men do?  Who would have thought!   :)

Front-Ranger.  Do gay men love I Love Lucy, The Wizard of Oz, Bewitched?  I don't, or haven't since I was a child.  And even as a kid I only watched half an episode of Bewitched before dismissing it as silly tripe.  I don't watch old Joan Crawford, Bette Davis and Judy Garland movies either.  I don't like being reduced to a cultural cliche.  Please let's put that one to bed.  Personal anecdotes by gay friends who happen to like them are not enough evidence to say if the percentage of gay men who like them is any greater than of the population as a whole.  Straight bikers show up at Singalong Sound of Music's here in Toronto.   :)

Kathie77.  That must have been difficult to write, but thank you very much for showing me something I had never even considered before.  I have only hinted at my own BBM story in postings in BetterMost.  That's really all I can do without coming completely apart and exposing myself to such psychic pain that it would be almost unendurable.  I admire your courage in being able to speak openly of something that comes from a place so deep inside you.   :)

Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline Mandy21

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 09:58:26 am »
{{{{Sue}}}}, you just taught me something I never knew about you.  THANK YOU for sharing that.
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Offline Sason

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 05:03:50 pm »
You're welcome, x-man. I'm glad you got some answers.

I forgot to add - and was reminded by Sue's moving post - that quite a few female members here and on DCF have gay sons, brothers,
ex-boyfriends.

That could be (one of) the reason(s) that BBM hit them so hard, to see parts of their loved one's lives in the movie.

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Offline Katie77

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 06:34:28 am »
X-man.....I wrote my story on here, just after I joined, which enabled me to talk more about it in real life.....

Mandy....I thought you knew my story, I have talked about it frequently on here....
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Offline Mandy21

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 08:33:26 am »
Mandy....I thought you knew my story, I have talked about it frequently on here....

Nope, I was unaware.  We must have become good friends AFTER you talked about that stuff.  Glad I know it now, though.  :)
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 01:44:15 pm »
This topic got a bit off-track so I've split off the tangential discussion so we can return to discussing the original topic.
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Offline x-man

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2014, 03:02:18 pm »
I have been away from BetterMost for a while.  I want to tell you why I left and why I am, tentatively, returning.  I also would like to point out something about the BBM phenomenon that others have probably noticed, but so far I have not seen anyone formulate.  This is why I am putting this posting here.

I first came to BetterMost several months ago.  Until then I had never posted to a website, and was quite naive regarding the ways of the cyberworld.  Those of you familiar with my postings know what I mean.  I would go too far, backtrack, and apologize profusely when I realized I was behaving like a bull in a china shop.  Gradually I at least partially caught on.  I distinguish between 2 kinds of postings--those about BBM and related matters where the cut and thrust of the debate capture the spirit of the thing, and those that are very personal and difficult to write.  I have read many of these on BetterMost, and I feel for those writing them because I know how difficult it is.  As for my own postings I may have stumbled and trodden on toes, but I never lied or tried to deceive.  I have led a rather unconventional life, but at my age I take that as a plus rather than something to be reticent about.  Some of this shows in many of my postings.  This did not concern me until I was confronted by someone criticizing me using phrases like "sceptical," "unbelievable," "a teller of tales" etc., seeming to lump me with some previous inhabitants of BetterMost who had lied, and tried to take advantage, some financially, of other BetterMostians.  I could not understand why I would be put into this category.  The best answer I could get was that it was better to be wary than be thought a fool.  I didn't really care about postings about literary analysis or human behaviour--those are open to as much argument as they will bear.  But when I was led to believe that my personal postings drawing from deep wells of memory and regret--like those of so many people I read here--were being greeted, especially by BM old-timers with scoffing, I was deeply discouraged, even more so because it was pointed out to me, that gay men were especially likely to be the villains trying to take advantage of other BetterMostians.  I tried to find out if this was one person's opinion or was widespread across BM, but I could get no answer.  I didn't feel much like posting after that.  I was especially discouraged because, as Alma sings in Meet Me on the Mountain, "It wouldn't be bitter if it wasn't so sweet."  And being in BetterMost was sweet; I felt at home, even if a bit awkward about it.  Now that all seemed to be gone.  But now the call of the mountain is hard to resist.  So I thought I would try again.  I would like to think I have grossly misunderstood, but in my heart I still have doubts.  I take BetterMost very seriously, perhaps too seriously, but I can do no other.  Now, to BBM:

Has everyone noticed that we seem to be in a post-short story, post-movie phase of the BBM phenomenon?  Minute parsing of the story or screenplay for yet new hidden meanings seems increasingly beside the point as BBM moves on.  We now have Shawn Kirchner's Meet Me On the Mountain, Steven Robinson's song Jack I Swear, many YouTube videos of acting classes filming scenes of "BBM Continued," the playlist on BBMRadio, which is shrewdly done, and lots of things I am leaving out--now including the opera.

What they all have in common is the unwillingness to leave BBM where Proulx and Lee left it, and to extend it into areas we all wanted it to go, but were frustrated by the (purposeful) ambiguity and missed opportunities of the story and movie.  I doubt that any brokie can read or watch BBM as pieces of text, external to our being, to be examined objectively; instead we weld them to the deepest parts of our psyche.  For us BBM is a rich compound of story, movie, and our selves.  There is little point in trying to establish what something in the movie or story really means, because that leaves out the equally important question of our own individual experience, so the "real" BBM is different for each of us.  The further explorations of BBM I mentioned before serve to bring our own insights of the "real" meaning into focus.  For example, I noticed in postings in several places that some people still wonder what Ennis meant by "Jack I wear"--even the story leaves that unclear.  But when I first heard Robinson's "Jack I Swear" I recognized exactly what Ennis meant--or rather I felt what it meant when I said it, substituting another name for Jack, with all the anguish the rest of the song so eloquently tells--I knew all too well.  The song is a meditation on the scene in the trailer, a further legitimate elaboration  We can all do that unrestrained by fidelity to story or screenplay.  In Meet Me On the Mountain we have Kirchner's  reflections on what followed, or what might have been.  "Lookin' All Right To Me" is what we want Ennis to be thinking the morning after the 1st night in the tent.  To say that it violates the meaning of the story just won't do. BBM has picked up steam, and is moving on to where we want it to go.  In "I'm On My Way" we have Jack, now dead, saying goodbye with no regrets to the final argument or the dozy embrace.  There are more examples, but this is enough.  No one can stop BBM now.  We need not fear that the stars over the tent will dim any time soon.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2014, 04:52:21 pm »
Hi x-man, I'm glad you're back. Thanks for your thoughtful post. The author Annie Proulx herself said that we have to "finish the story in our own minds." I look forward to discussing the wonderful story of Brokeback Mountain often with you.

Because we all feel very passionately about this story and the issues it raises, things can get a little sticky sometimes. I personally will endeavor to be more sensitive in my posts, as I sometimes rub people the wrong way. I am not aware of some of the accusations that you say were made. They must have been made in a personal message, which nobody has access to except the corresponding parties.
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Offline Rosestem

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2014, 12:28:13 am »
Excerpts from libretto for the opera here:
http://brokebackstory.blogspot.com/p/brokeback-mountain-opera-libretto.html

Annie Proulx expands on Alma, eliminates Cassie and Randall, makes clear Jack and Ennis did not embrace face-to-face on Brokeback, and adds a beautiful expansion of "Jack, I swear."

Offline milomorris

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2014, 02:26:14 pm »
Excerpts from libretto for the opera here:
http://brokebackstory.blogspot.com/p/brokeback-mountain-opera-libretto.html

Annie Proulx expands on Alma, eliminates Cassie and Randall, makes clear Jack and Ennis did not embrace face-to-face on Brokeback, and adds a beautiful expansion of "Jack, I swear."

...and LD appears as a ghost.
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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2014, 09:17:05 am »
Has everyone noticed that we seem to be in a post-short story, post-movie phase of the BBM phenomenon?  Minute parsing of the story or screenplay for yet new hidden meanings seems increasingly beside the point as BBM moves on.  We now have Shawn Kirchner's Meet Me On the Mountain, Steven Robinson's song Jack I Swear, many YouTube videos of acting classes filming scenes of "BBM Continued," the playlist on BBMRadio, which is shrewdly done, and lots of things I am leaving out--now including the opera.

Each person fated to become a Brokie comes to Brokeback at their own time, for their own reasons.  Each Brokie goes through their own phases at their own time as well, and stay for their own reasons.

I was never really one who needed to review every meaning of every shot/phrase/movement in the short story or movie.  I'm a viewer who lets himself go where my emotions pull me.  They pulled me to the movie countless times.

After the first BBQ in Texas, I heard a quote from my friend Jimmy that it was no longer about "Brokeback -the movie" it is now "Brokeback - The People", meaning all the movie-goers so affected by the movie, they had to see it multiple times, read/create fan fiction to retell the story, read the short story over and over, watch/make videos with the movie's footage, seek out internet sites and forums.   We had reached out to each other, and for me, built strong friendships.

I can't remember the last time I saw Brokeback in full, and to be honest, I wouldn't be upset if I never saw it again.  It's not about the movie anymore.  It's about the friends I met through it, and their stories that are of utmost imprints to me.   The only time going forward that I anticipate seeing the movie again is if it is showed with brokies.  Some Brokies didn't get the opportunity to see it on the big screen, or see it with other Brokies, so for them, I go to screenings at the gatherings to help them have the experiences I had when I saw it with Brokies.


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Offline x-man

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2014, 05:22:08 pm »
 The only time going forward that I anticipate seeing the movie again is if it is showed with brokies.  Some Brokies didn't get the opportunity to see it on the big screen, or see it with other Brokies, so for them, I go to screenings at the gatherings to help them have the experiences I had when I saw it with Brokies.

I am one of the people who only have seen BBM  on my television screen, alone.  My emotional reaction to seeing it for the first time--and for subsequent  viewings as well--was so strong I was weeping almost uncontrollably.  And I do not cry in movies, in fact besides with BBM I have only cried once in my life. (Oh, I did get teary in Undertow, but those tears were coming from the same place as the ones for BBM. )   What is it like with lots of people around you, and  specifically, what is it like seeing it with brokies?  The emotion in the theatre must be overwhelming.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2014, 07:28:23 pm »
It's kind of hard to explain, I'm sure each person has their own explanation of what they're feeling.

I felt a sense of belonging, a sense of like-mindedness, that we all were having this experience.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Peter John Shields

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Re: What is your take on the BBM phenomenon
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2014, 11:53:02 am »
It is a very powerful movie that resonates with me today and I only saw it the once in the cinema way back when.  For me it is about eternal love.  When Jack died it felt like half of Ennis died too and he was literally torn in two.  Ennis was emotionally crippled for much of his life but despite being broken apart by the loss he was full of love for his soul mate.  And despite Jack's physical death they were as one.
Cheerio,
PJ