Our Boys Crying..

[Kea]

Hi

Ok...I am going to try to start a new topic here.....help out a bit with Nancy being away......

Here is my question.....it came up in another discussion board... ...that some stories ( fan fic) especially show Jack as weaker ...crying ...etc.....and even Ennis crying and breaking down more...

this person  felt that this would not happen with our real Jack and Ennis......it raises an interesting question for me..


Were they really more in touch with their feelings than we know.. 

or did they repress them? 

Do you think they showed more in private where we would not see them??



Also.....this question came up.......about men crying.....

Do you think men cry as easily as we women do?   or No, they push it down deep  ?


Is sensitivity a gender trait?

How have you felt seeing a man cry?.

Who was more sensitive ..Jack or Ennis??

To quote a buddy of mine...( a sweet guy)  Real men cry....

whatca think??

hugs
Kea

[twistedude]

We do see each of them cry..Jack once; Ennis twice, no, three time, nio FOUR times (in the kneeling clinch) (jn the alleyway as well) (twice at the end--in Jack's room, at at the very end)--.  I think it is ingrained in both of these men, and probably still in most men today, that they do not SHOW their feelings by crying.  I don't think that it ingrained in them not to HAVE such feelings, only that they do not make a public exhibition of them.  Country guys don't cry; life is too short, there isn't enough time, people can't be biothered with them cxrying--so they don't.

An interesting question, to me, concerns gay guys in general.  I've found, berneath the sensitive exterior, sometimes and ENORMOUS sophistiocation, that so far exeeds my own, that I'm afraid to express "womanish" feelings around them, "soppyness."  But gay guys, especially city ones, cry easily--at movies, at any rate!  Reading books...but i sometimes have the sense that they can't be bothered with emotions that they had, 100 years ago---

Anyway, I came here to read your poems...

[Lynne]

Thanks for the new topic, Kea...I should have replied before now, but I've been dwelling on it privately...even in the shower today!

What is it about this movie that continually resurrects 'stuff' in us that we had no idea was stewing around?!?

Your thread here put me into some serious contemplation and I didn't want to post prematurely before I had thought things through as much as possible.  I keep coming back to the same point, so maybe you can help unstick me?  I'm afraid I'm going to sound unsympathetic or hard or cold or something...

First, let me address the idea of our boys crying...We see them moved to tears but it is very subtle.  For Ennis the tears are in his eyes (along with the hurt) and though Jack may be crying on his way to Mexico, even sensitive Jack forces them back and presses the accelerator on his journey (redlining again?).  I don't think anyone who says Jack is 'weaker' than Ennis has any valid arguments.  Jack was more in touch with his needs than Ennis, but it would take someone with a great strength of character to maintain any sort of relationship for 20 years, particularly when you consider how the frustrations and disappointments had to pile on him.  I wouldn't say that one is more sensitive than the other - they just coped differently.

That said, I think it's entirely conceivable that in the fan fiction world that Jack and Ennis were more expressive with each other privately.

So I was reviewing the men I know and under what circumstances I have seen them cry, which is what brought me to all the introspection.  In ALL cases except one, the tears were not motivated by genuine hurt; rather, they were manipulative, born of frustration or anger, but in general inappropriate.

That does sound hard, doesn't it?  Who am I to judge?  Let me rephrase slightly - I felt manipulated in these situations; that the tears were there to further some agenda, to generate a response in me, but not genuine.

So my own experience leads me to believe that sensitivity is more of a learned behavior and less a predisposition of one gender or another.

[ednbarby]

In general, I've always believed that men actually feel things more deeply than women because we women are so much freer to let our emotions show.  When we girls get our hearts broken, we call all our pals and sit around and have a great big weep and eat fest.  With men, it's all false bravado until they find themselves alone with their feelings and don't know what to do with them.  I look at Jack finding himself crying in his truck that way - he's overwhelmed with emotion, and yet pissed off to realize he is.  Hence the almost petulant way he wipes away his tears.

[twistedude]

Bob cries freely and openly when something moves him to cry...so there.

Although Jack cries real tears once, on the way to-- Mexico, eventually,  there are several times when he might have cried..and instead, conforts Ennis ( the cheek caress; the kneeling clinch).

[serious crayons]

Funny, I was just thinking about this issue earlier, before I came across this thread. And I did a tally.

Jack cries once:
-- after the post-divorce scene.

Ennis actually cries SIX times:
-- in the alley
-- at his divorce
-- in the final lake scene
-- in the phone booth
-- in Jack's childhood room
-- in the "I swear" scene

Other thoughts:

I don't associate crying with weakness. If anything, in moderation it seems like a strength. That said, I am always really touched by guys with tough exteriors crying. I'm not sure why it gets to me so much. I suppose because I like to know that tough guys can be vulnerable and sensitive, too.

I don't like it when anyone (man or woman) cries all the time, or in a manipulative way, or in a self-pitying way. But I wouldn't apply those descriptions to any of the crying in this movie.

I think Ennis cries more than Jack because he is more vulnerable and a sadder person in general. In the alley scene, I think he is more devastated by the parting than Jack -- perhaps because he thinks he just said goodbye forever to the love of his life, whereas Jack is more optimistic, either about seeing Ennis again or finding someone else. In general, Jack is more cheerful and able to shrug things off more easily. Also, three of the times Ennis cries occur after Jack's death, so of course he has more opportunity.

[jpwagoneer1964]

If you look I believe Jack also cries after he is knocked down by Ennises punch. He is close when "tell you what....truth is.....sometimes I miss you much I can hardly stand it". And their final scene when he goes to Ennis "let me be...

[JCinNYC2006]

Kea, I like your questions.  I hate crying, I have the usual male perspective of feeling like it makes me look weak.  It's more like what the crying is expressing that is difficult for me.  So when the movie came out, I kinda knew it would be carthartic in that it would allow me to cry for a bit.  And even then, it was only afterwards at my friend's apartment and a glass of wine that I let myself bawl.  He was kind of taken aback by it.

I envy women the ability to be more expressive with their emotions.  I know the idea is that gay men are often more in touch with their feelings, but I don't always find that to be so.  In fact I think we have sort of developed a different way of defending against them (cynical or bitchy humor, etc.)  Not always of course, but in my closest relationships I don't often experience my gay male friends crying, whereas a lot of my female friends cry much more easily.

Juan

[David]

I agree with Juan.   I find it difficult to cry in front of people.    But if I'm alone watching a movie....look out!   I'm as weepy as a schoolgirl.


Oh, and Yes!    When Jack took that punch from Ennis, you can hear him Gasp almost in tears.   VERY REALISTIC!    Trust me, I recall getting hit like that in grade school, and Jacks reaction was "Spot-on" acurate.

[opinionista]

Kea, I like your questions.  I hate crying, I have the usual male perspective of feeling like it makes me look weak.  It's more like what the crying is expressing that is difficult for me.  So when the movie came out, I kinda knew it would be carthartic in that it would allow me to cry for a bit.  And even then, it was only afterwards at my friend's apartment and a glass of wine that I let myself bawl.  He was kind of taken aback by it.

I envy women the ability to be more expressive with their emotions.  I know the idea is that gay men are often more in touch with their feelings, but I don't always find that to be so. 
Juan

The idea that gay men are often more in touch with their feelings is wrong. In my opinion crying or expressing feelings has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. It actually has to do with the way you're raised and the culture you belong to. My brother has a lot of emotional problems because of his inability to express his feelings. My father, and every men in my family, thought him that crying is for sissies or for girls, and he believed it. And now my brother is spending good money on psychologists to deal with the consequences of having repressed his feelings during his entire life.

Jack and Ennis were raised to be men, machos, cowboys, so it is not surprising that they find it hard to express their feelings. And that is precisely what makes them more sensitive, in my opinion. I think men, in general, (gay or straight) don't cry as easily as women do, but its harder for them to deal with any emotional situation than its for women.

I think Ennis cries more easily than Jack does because he doesn't speak about his feelings at all. He keeps them all to himself, unaware that feelings always find their way out. That's the reason for his violent outbursts and why he cries more than Jack does in the movie. Jack talks more, so he has less necessity to cry than Ennis does.