Author Topic: Red and green  (Read 10694 times)

Offline ednbarby

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Red and green
« on: December 05, 2006, 12:23:00 am »
So...  I just watched the last half hour of the movie on HBO, and damned if I didn't notice something else I never had before.  In the Lightning Flat scene, when Mrs. Twist offers Ennis the coffee and piece a cherry cake, in the kitchen, not only is the cherry in the cake red, but a jar filled with some kind of red liquid above it, and what looks like a metal can painted red above that.  Then I look to the right, and on the counter is a large vividly green ceramic bowl with something red peeping out of the top of it - an apple, maybe?  And I think... Christmas.  Not because that's what time of year it is (it was October or so, wasn't it?), but just... Christmas.  Then the camera pans to Ennis at the kitchen table saying "Can't begin to tell ya how bad I feel..."  Above his head just slightly to the right hangs his hat on the wall.  Mrs. Twist is to his right, Mr. Twist to his left.  The composition suddenly strikes me as looking like... a cross.  Or maybe three crosses, like in the beginning of the movie.

Coincidence?  I think not.
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Offline Meryl

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2006, 02:02:58 am »
Very interesting, Barb!  I've been wondering about the placement of that hat on the wall, too.  A halo?  Jack's spirit hovering?  Gotta be somethin'.

I like the idea of the symbolic trinity, too, and that's a great little bookend when you compare it with the three telephone poles at the beginning.  Of course there is a real crucifix on the wall by the kitchen, too.

I posted somewhere awhile back about the use of red after the Scene at the Lake.  Casey Cornelius once wrote that all the scenes after that had a kind of hallucinatory quality, and there does seem to be a subtle but real draining of color out of the movie towards the end.  But dropped into the midst of these drab scenes are touches of red.

Ennis wears the same grey overshirt in the last four scenes, grey being the muted form of Jack's signature blue and also suggestive of Ennis's depressed frame of mind. The shirt has an interesting red detail right over the heart like a symbolic wound. In the same way, each of the four last scenes has a neutral palette punctuated by bits of red.

Here's a painting by Hammershoi that one of the IMDb posters postulated was an inspiration for the Twist ranch scene:



At theTwist ranch, in addition to those things you mentioned, Jack's father has a red belt, Jack's mother's dress has a small red detail in its print and her hair has a reddish tint.  There are patches of red on Jack's bedspread and clothing, and finally, dark red on the bloodstained shirts.

The dreamlike quality of the scene is heightened subtly, I think, by the red dropped into the otherwise neutral tones. It does remind me of how we recall incidents in our lives--a kind of general impression punctuated by more vivid moments. If Ang Lee was trying to give us the feeling of being inside Ennis's memory, this may have been one of the ways he chose to do it.

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2006, 11:40:23 am »
Beautifully written, Meryl.  And that painting is stunningly evocative of the scene.  Come to think of it, in that shot I mentioned with the amazing composition that made me think of the trinity, Ennis was in the middle with the hat right over his head like a halo, and the cross over that.  Wow.
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Offline Meryl

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 12:48:12 pm »
Thanks, Barb.  I love this scene because it's so stark, but for all that, it holds such a wealth of associations.  Did you ever read Casey Cornelius's "Classical Allusions" thread over on IMDb?  I think that's one reason I became a die-hard Brokie. 

I think Ang Lee has said this is one of his favorite scenes in the movie.  It's clear that every detail was considered carefully, and the cumulative power of all those small things is so great that I think it will become one of those scenes that film historians routinely refer to as one of the best ever put on film.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 01:29:42 pm »
Thanks, Barb.  I love this scene because it's so stark, but for all that, it holds such a wealth of associations.  Did you ever read Casey Cornelius's "Classical Allusions" thread over on IMDb?  I think that's one reason I became a die-hard Brokie. 

I think Ang Lee has said this is one of his favorite scenes in the movie.  It's clear that every detail was considered carefully, and the cumulative power of all those small things is so great that I think it will become one of those scenes that film historians routinely refer to as one of the best ever put on film.

Yes, I have read that thread and I think it made me even more of a die-hard Brokie, too.

And I quite agree with your last sentence.
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2007, 06:56:14 pm »
Those are great observations, Barb!  And terrific analysis too, Barb and Meryl.  I'm going to watch for the additional trinity placements and for red after Jack's death the next time I watch the movie, maybe tonight...It's been months!
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Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2007, 12:41:10 pm »
So...  I just watched the last half hour of the movie on HBO, and damned if I didn't notice something else I never had before.  In the Lightning Flat scene, when Mrs. Twist offers Ennis the coffee and piece a cherry cake, in the kitchen, not only is the cherry in the cake red, but a jar filled with some kind of red liquid above it, and what looks like a metal can painted red above that.  Then I look to the right, and on the counter is a large vividly green ceramic bowl with something red peeping out of the top of it - an apple, maybe?  And I think... Christmas.  Not because that's what time of year it is (it was October or so, wasn't it?), but just... Christmas.  Then the camera pans to Ennis at the kitchen table saying "Can't begin to tell ya how bad I feel..."  Above his head just slightly to the right hangs his hat on the wall.  Mrs. Twist is to his right, Mr. Twist to his left.  The composition suddenly strikes me as looking like... a cross.  Or maybe three crosses, like in the beginning of the movie.

Coincidence?  I think not.


I think its a Coincidence.  ;)

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2007, 02:38:56 pm »
Nothing (with some exceptions) on a movie set is a coincidence. all details are painfully set up by the props folks, set designers, director, lighting man, etc. So, the use of the props noted above and their color was well thought out, I am sure, in order to stage the set in the most artistic and appropriate tone possible.

that said, their underlying or metyphorical or mystical meaning is very hard to ascertain. Most film sets and their directors actually do not want 'hidden' or very abscure things in their films that are hard to find or see. they want the message to hit the mass audiences in a direct or semi direct way. If such things go unnoticed, so is their message, and no director I know would want this. Yes, some may have an idea that he/she wants their audiences to 'think' or 'study' their works for the hidden meanings, but hmmmm, that seems like a long shot for this particular scene, in my opinion. thanks!

Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2007, 12:42:26 am »
Nothing (with some exceptions) on a movie set is a coincidence. all details are painfully set up by the props folks, set designers, director, lighting man, etc. So, the use of the props noted above and their color was well thought out, I am sure, in order to stage the set in the most artistic and appropriate tone possible.

that said, their underlying or metyphorical or mystical meaning is very hard to ascertain. Most film sets and their directors actually do not want 'hidden' or very abscure things in their films that are hard to find or see. they want the message to hit the mass audiences in a direct or semi direct way. If such things go unnoticed, so is their message, and no director I know would want this. Yes, some may have an idea that he/she wants their audiences to 'think' or 'study' their works for the hidden meanings, but hmmmm, that seems like a long shot for this particular scene, in my opinion. thanks!


I have worked in the Motion Picture business for 25 years now. Yes sets are "Designed" but set dressing never is. Nothing you see as part of a set is a "prop" its set dressing. Props are used by actors. The toaster the bowls etc are all set dressing. The Cherry Cake and coffee however is "the property departments." responsibility and is considered a prop as is all food seen on movies. The placement of furnature and wall hangings are done by the set decorator working from a master plan from the Production Designer and Art Director head of the art Department. The Movie Director seldom gets involved with set decorating or furnature placement unless something looks grossly wrong to him. In most cases the Director will communicate to the Production designer his vision of what he thinks the sets should look like early on in the pre production process. Most Directors give there Art Department full responsibility to decorate the set according to the script and the Art Directors vision of it. The Director is usually way to busy with the talent and keeping the movie on time and on budget to worry about set decorating, props, etc. thats why the Production and Art Director exists. The Director never has total controll of any big budget film he just has "some creative input" contribution to it as does the Studio, the Producers and the Department Heads. Its a much more complex process than it seems, and much more of a group collaboration than you would think.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 03:22:32 am by RossInIllinois »

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2007, 11:11:37 am »
I was trying to simpliify the process for everyone; I've also been in the industry for over 35 years never have seen a project with that lack of directorial control. Nonetheless, and perhaps regardless, what was seen on the screen and the placement of background items and the juxtaposition of such was very unlikely to have been intended as mystical or hidden-meaning type stuff.

Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2007, 12:32:18 pm »

Offline Meryl

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2007, 12:38:40 pm »
Whoa!  That's very cool, Ross.  I'll bet you have a lot of interesting tales to tell.  Thanks for the link!  8)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2007, 01:24:07 pm »
Ross, thanks for sharing that. I'd love to hear more about your experiences.

As for this particular case, I'll admit I'm not entirely convinced that red and green have really deep significance. But I am rarely a patron in what Front-Ranger calls "cigar is just a cigar" bar. I have dismissed things in the past only to be absolutely convinced, after further conversation, that some seemingly minor detail or image is loaded with hidden meaning.

Most film sets and their directors actually do not want 'hidden' or very abscure things in their films that are hard to find or see. they want the message to hit the mass audiences in a direct or semi direct way. If such things go unnoticed, so is their message, and no director I know would want this.

Sure. Average movies convey their messages in a simple and direct way so that average viewers will quickly understand what's happening. And in most cases nobody expects anything more than that. Nobody is likely to comb over Firehouse Dog or Blades of Glory or Perfect Stranger in search of subtle metaphors. Even with more supposedly arty fare -- Crash comes to mind -- filmmakers usually seem to want to make things easy for their viewers.

Writers of great literature, on the other hand, are more prepared to challenge readers. They thread the text with nuanced layers of meaning that demand close attention to detail. Annie Proulx does that. And Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana and Ang Lee obviously decided to carry that approach on into the movie. The film is full of subtleties that most viewers miss. Ten minutes on the imdb board will show you often people don't get BBM. Even those who love the movie don't catch most of the subtleties, especially not at first. I loved the movie on first viewing but didn't realize for months and months how deep it goes. Now I've been discussing it for a year and am still discovering new things. Apparently the filmmakers -- like authors of great literature -- decided to sacrifice easy comprehensibility in exchange for creating art on the highest level.







Offline RossInIllinois

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2007, 02:00:32 pm »
Ross, thanks for sharing that. I'd love to hear more about your experiences.

As for this particular case, I'll admit I'm not entirely convinced that red and green have really deep significance. But I am rarely a patron in what Front-Ranger calls "cigar is just a cigar" bar. I have dismissed things in the past only to be absolutely convinced, after further conversation, that some seemingly minor detail or image is loaded with hidden meaning.

Sure. Average movies convey their messages in a simple and direct way so that average viewers will quickly understand what's happening. And in most cases nobody expects anything more than that. Nobody is likely to comb over Firehouse Dog or Blades of Glory or Perfect Stranger in search of subtle metaphors. Even with more supposedly arty fare -- Crash comes to mind -- filmmakers usually seem to want to make things easy for their viewers.

Writers of great literature, on the other hand, are more prepared to challenge readers. They thread the text with nuanced layers of meaning that demand close attention to detail. Annie Proulx does that. And Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana and Ang Lee obviously decided to carry that approach on into the movie. The film is full of subtleties that most viewers miss. Ten minutes on the imdb board will show you often people don't get BBM. Even those who love the movie don't catch most of the subtleties, especially not at first. I loved the movie on first viewing but didn't realize for months and months how deep it goes. Now I've been discussing it for a year and am still discovering new things. Apparently the filmmakers -- like authors of great literature -- decided to sacrifice easy comprehensibility in exchange for creating art on the highest level.







So if the movie viewers don't get it as you say, What does that say about the subtleties you speak of then?  ;)  In the Film Making Biz if it goes over the viewers heads on the first view you made a mistake somewhere... OR the viewer is reading more than what was intended into it... ;)  I do think editing flaws and script flaws and a "General Lack of consistency in its period look" kept BBM from winning Best Picture, not its theme as some would suggest.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 02:18:58 pm by RossInIllinois »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2007, 02:44:57 pm »
So if the movie viewers don't get it as you say, What does that say about the subtleties you speak of then?  ;)  In the Film Making Biz if it goes over the viewers heads on the first view you made a mistake somewhere... OR the viewer is reading more than what was intended into it... ;)

Well, would you say the same about the Literature Biz? If a casual reader, leafing through Shakespeare or Emily Brontë or Flannery O'Connor, doesn't immediately catch every little nuance, then it's not the reader's fault but the author's mistake? There are literature professors and critics who spend whole careers analyzing great novels, picking them apart sentence by sentence, word by word, finding new layers of meaning. Do you honestly feel like they're reading more into them than was intended? And if not, is there any reason why the same approach couldn't apply to a movie?

Ross, I wonder how much time you've spent reading the many threads here in which people analyzed these things. Here are a few good ones, if you're interested. If you like these, I can find you plenty of others. You probably won't agree with everything that's said, or every interpretation --  I don't, either. But I'd be surprised if you'd come away thinking it's all a figment of people's imaginations. Believe me, the symbols and subtleties and complexities and allusions and mirrors and bookends all really do exist, and they're very deliberate.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0.html

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,3851.0.html

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1097.0.html

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,795.0.html

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1266.0.html


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2007, 02:52:47 pm »
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0474672/ 

 ;)

Whoa!  That's very cool, Ross.  I'll bet you have a lot of interesting tales to tell.  Thanks for the link!  8)

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"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2007, 02:58:19 pm »
I have worked in the Motion Picture business for 25 years now. Yes sets are "Designed" but set dressing never is. Nothing you see as part of a set is a "prop" its set dressing. Props are used by actors. The toaster the bowls etc are all set dressing. The Cherry Cake and coffee however is "the property departments." responsibility and is considered a prop as is all food seen on movies. The placement of furnature and wall hangings are done by the set decorator working from a master plan from the Art Director head of the art Department. The Movie Director seldom gets involved with set decorating or furnature placement unless something looks grossly wrong to him. In most cases the Director will communicate to the Art Director his vision of what he thinks the sets should look like early on in the pre production process. Most Directors give there Art Department full responsibility to decorate the set according to the script and the Art Directors vision of it. The Director is usually way to busy with the talent and keeping the movie on time and on budget to worry about set decorating, props, etc. thats why the Art Director exists. The Director never has total controll of any big budget film he just has "some creative input" contribution to it as does the Studio, the Producers and the Department Heads. Its a much more complex process than it seems, and much more of a group collaboration than you would think.  ;)

I was trying to simpliify the process for everyone; I've also been in the industry for over 35 years never have seen a project with that lack of directorial control. Nonetheless, and perhaps regardless, what was seen on the screen and the placement of background items and the juxtaposition of such was very unlikely to have been intended as mystical or hidden-meaning type stuff.

Gentlemen, it's nice to have your voices here.  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2007, 05:22:12 pm »
Well, would you say the same about the Literature Biz? If a casual reader, leafing through Shakespeare or Emily Brontë or Flannery O'Connor, doesn't immediately catch every little nuance, then it's not the reader's fault but the author's mistake? There are literature professors and critics who spend whole careers analyzing great novels, picking them apart sentence by sentence, word by word, finding new layers of meaning. Do you honestly feel like they're reading more into them than was intended? And if not, is there any reason why the same approach couldn't apply to a movie?

Ross, I wonder how much time you've spent reading the many threads here in which people analyzed these things. Here are a few good ones, if you're interested. If you like these, I can find you plenty of others. You probably won't agree with everything that's said, or every interpretation --  I don't, either. But I'd be surprised if you'd come away thinking it's all a figment of people's imaginations. Believe me, the symbols and subtleties and complexities and allusions and mirrors and bookends all really do exist, and they're very deliberate.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0.html

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,3851.0.html

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1097.0.html

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,795.0.html

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1266.0.html




Injest, I know exactly where you are coming from and agree. And Ross is correct too, imo, because films truly are more about 'what you see is what you get' than the great classics in literature where so many more intricasies are in play.

To me, the utter beauty of the subtleties in BBM are that, while they are subtle and sometimes abstract, they are SO vivid for those who truly are looking/viewing the film. When Jack says, "...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardlly stand it...", Ennis' reaction is non verbal. Totally subtle. and many write him off from this scene as being unfeeling, unaware, unmoved. But, the impact of this seen is immense; the light glimmering in his eyes, his expression, the sun shining like a shroud on his face in which he is hiding, the shakey whiskey bottle. Subtleties, yes, but vast indications of Ennis' bursting with emotion and love for Jack. such filmatic wonder put most of us on the edge of the seat, privately praying 'say something!' but without words, he communicated much of the same message he did with 'I swear'.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2007, 05:39:15 pm »
Injest, I know exactly where you are coming from 

Were you talking to me, HerrKaiser? In any case, I agree!  :)

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2007, 05:47:28 pm »
yes...it must be Friday, don't even know who is who! thanks!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 02:35:04 pm »
This is a nice thread to reread at this time of year. I didn't realize that Ennis visited the Twist house in October.
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Offline chowhound

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Re: Red and green
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2012, 03:44:04 pm »
This is a nice thread to reread at this time of year. I didn't realize that Ennis visited the Twist house in October.

Front-Ranger, I think the month is more likely to be November or even December but it's impossible to be definitive about this.

What we do know is that Ennis had sent Jack a postcard suggesting a reunion at Pine Creek on November 7 and that this postcard was returned to Ennis stamped "deceased". What we don't know is how far ahead of November 7 the "deceased" postcard got to Ennis though it could have been only a matter of days before his departure for the reunion. Ennis then phones Lureen to find out what has happened and it's during this conversation that she suggests that Ennis visit the Twists and work out what should be done with the remaining half of Jack's ashes.

Some time, obviously, has to elapse between this phone call and the date that Ennis sets out to visit the Twists but again we don't know how long this is.

All in all, however, I find it more likely that Ennis visited the Twists in November - or even December - rather than October.

Somehow, psychologically, emotionally, artistically - whatever - I find the bleaker days of November or December a more appropriate backdrop for this scene rather than the warmer and more colourful days of October.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 10:06:46 pm by chowhound »