Author Topic: Would Jack have quit Ennis?  (Read 14438 times)

Offline welliwont

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Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« on: December 07, 2006, 05:36:14 pm »
Would Jack have quit Ennis?

After many months of pondering this story, (and trying to read Jack's face after the fight by the lake, watching Ennis drive away), some people have concluded that Jack was going to quit Ennis, and that is the subject of today's poll.  How do you think things would have gone between our boys if Jack had not died?

With thanks to Amanda, Clarissa, Katherine, and ClancyPants!   :D

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2006, 03:42:50 am »
IMHO.... Jack would NEVER quit Ennis.

That's my humble opinion.  :)
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2006, 04:01:38 am »
"...Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
--Annie Proulx, Brokeback Mountain

IMO, Annie tells us plainly that Jack would never have quit Ennis.  Their relationship would have continued in much the same way it always had if Jack had not died.
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Offline JT

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2006, 01:06:44 am »
I don't think Jack would quit Ennis just like that.  He loves him too much.  Jack would, however, try to find a new life if things were not changed.  I think Jack did think about quitting Ennis on the final meeting when he thought about the happiest time he had with Ennis--the Dozy Embrace.  I'm a beleiver in hope, so I think Ennis was making progress by sending the last postcard.  So in the November meeting, if Jack didn't die, things would change--a little.  Ennis takes small steps.

Offline RouxB

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2006, 12:22:14 am »
Jack would not have quit Ennis-that is part of the tragedy. The two of them would have continued in their love and misery until Ennis came around. I do believe Ennis was making that journey.

 O0

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 12:17:50 am »
This is a great question!  I went with an optimistic answer here and chose the "Ennis was making progress..." option.  Well, because I think it's true.  I think Ennis was making progress and we're given many tiny, subtle clues to this even before Ennis received the deceased postcard.  I don't think they would have been able to jump right into living together no matter what.  I do think an effort would be made to see each other more.  Maybe some baby steps towards progress would have been made.  I don't believe that Jack would have ever really been able to "quit" Ennis.  I think his statement at the lake makes it clear that Jack understands himself well enough to know that he wouldn't be able to leave Ennis after 20 years.  He really doesn't know how to quit him.
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2008, 09:46:16 am »
     Jack lived, Ennis would have tried to be with him more, and he would eventually have made a home with Jack.         

I think so...

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Offline optom3

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2008, 10:16:15 am »
I voted that he woul never quit Ennis, he loved him enough to stick 20 years of the arrangement,so I think things would pretty much have continues.I do think  Ennis was changing as he sent the last postcard,and I would have loved for them to move in eventually. I am just not 100% convinced they would which is why I did not choose that option.

Inspired poll though!!!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2008, 10:18:32 am »
Merci optom !

Interesting poll, isn't it ? !!

On peut en dire plus !!  (We can said much more !! )

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2008, 08:23:29 am »
I think Ennis was making progress and we're given many tiny, subtle clues to this even before Ennis received the deceased postcard.  I don't think they would have been able to jump right into living together no matter what.  I do think an effort would be made to see each other more.  Maybe some baby steps towards progress would have been made.  I don't believe that Jack would have ever really been able to "quit" Ennis.  I think his statement at the lake makes it clear that Jack understands himself well enough to know that he wouldn't be able to leave Ennis after 20 years.  He really doesn't know how to quit him.

That's pretty much how I saw it.  I do think that if Ennis had acted on their next meeting like nothing had changed -- or was going to -- Jack would have started to think about how long he could handle this and yes, he might have looked for someone else he at least liked at that point.  But it did look to me like Ennis was going to make an effort.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2008, 08:35:05 am »
I think it would have kept going basically the same - rare meetups that punctuated otherwise excruciating alone loneliness for Ennis, and Mexico/Randall-type loneliness for Jack.



Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2008, 08:57:38 am »
Merci Elle !

That might be... as you say !

May I disagree ?

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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2008, 09:07:00 am »
I'm not so optomistic that I think Ennis would change or come around someday.   But for sure I dont think Jack could ever quit Ennis.  The relationship would go on like it had for 20 years, but with fewer and fewer meetings. Also, there is the off chance that Randall and Jack would have moved up to Lightning Flat and whip the old ranch into shape as OMT mentioned to Ennis when Ennis went up to get Jack's ashes. :'(
Either way Jack didnt know how to quit Ennis.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2008, 09:29:26 am »
Merci brokeback dev !

You say:     I'm not so optomistic that I think Ennis would change or come around someday.   But for sure I dont think Jack could ever quit Ennis.  The relationship would go on like it had for 20 years, but with fewer and fewer meetings. Also, there is the off chance that Randall and Jack would have moved up to Lightning Flat and whip the old ranch into shape as OMT mentioned to Ennis when Ennis went up to get Jack's ashes.
Either way Jack didnt know how to quit Ennis.       

.......

And may I say or hope:
1- That Ennis was changing and did come around, since he went to see Jack's parents, etc.;

2- Jack would never quit Ennis, and Ennis too would and did not let go of Jack as we see that he hugs that shirt in his trailer as the end of the movie;

3- Since the relationship went on  for 20 years, I think that more and more meetings would have occured, yes since the bond and understand were enriching  at each meeting;

4- and, to me,  Randall did not and would not have been accepted by Jack... on the long run !

Food for thought ?

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Offline souxi

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2008, 09:43:12 am »
My own personal opinion is, that they would have met up in November as planned, and Jack would have broken things off with Ennis. Ennis would have started drinking heavily and gradually made himself ill. I think it would have taken Jack leaving him to make him realise what they had, and that he DID love him and I think he,d have packed up, moved out and followed Jack to Texas and tried to make a go of things. As happend in Somebody New. That is exactly how I think things would have worked out, IMO. 

Offline Lynne

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2008, 01:02:43 pm »
Elle - I like the phrase you used.

"Mexico/Randall-type loneliness"

So true and so tragic.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 04:52:43 pm »
This is a great question!  I went with an optimistic answer here and chose the "Ennis was making progress..." option.  Well, because I think it's true.  I think Ennis was making progress and we're given many tiny, subtle clues to this even before Ennis received the deceased postcard.  I don't think they would have been able to jump right into living together no matter what.  I do think an effort would be made to see each other more.  Maybe some baby steps towards progress would have been made.  I don't believe that Jack would have ever really been able to "quit" Ennis.  I think his statement at the lake makes it clear that Jack understands himself well enough to know that he wouldn't be able to leave Ennis after 20 years.  He really doesn't know how to quit him.


This is very interesting to reconsider this question over a year following this post I made in this thread way-back-when.  In thinking about this again, I still believe most of what I wrote back then.

I still stand by the idea that Ennis was making progress (at a snail's pace) in certain ways in terms of understanding and accepting his relationship with Jack.  We see that, clearly, Jack's death was a shock strong enough to rattle Ennis into doing all sorts of things that he would have been too afraid to do prior to Jack's death (primarily driving all the way to Lightning Flat to meet Jack's parents... and even gathering his courage to call Lureen, etc.).  I wonder if the lake-side fight alone was enough to rattle Ennis to the degree that he really would have tried harder to make things better with Jack.

I do think it's extremely significant that Ennis is the one who sent the final postcard.  Clearly the thought of losing Jack is tremendously profound to Ennis.  We see this in his reactions to the conversation by the lake when he begins to worry about a break-up and obviously we see what happens in the circumstance where he does lose Jack.   So, maybe if Jack had lived he really would have tried harder.  I think Jack's hints and not-so-subtle threats about breaking up during the argument really could have had a major impact on Ennis's behavior and determination to fix things.

One of the last things we hear Ennis saying to Jack is "I can't stand this anymore"... So, according to Ennis's own motto "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it"... this seems to suggest that once you can't stand something anymore you do the opposite and try to fix it.  There's no exit clause in his motto.  If you can't stand something you still don't quit it.

As far as Jack goes, I think he's self-aware enough to know that he's not capable of breaking up with Ennis.  I think that's why he adds the conditional "wish" to "I wish I knew how to quit you."  I don't think he has the will power to resist Ennis and I think he knows that.  If he had lived, I think he would have worked with Ennis to try to make things better.  Like I said in my post a year ago, I think progress would have been in baby-steps.  Mostly I think things would have stayed the same... at least in the short term. 

But, again, I think the argument alone... and airing all the frustrations and some of the secrets... was enough to be a catalyst for some measure of change.


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Offline Kerry

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2008, 09:28:37 am »

I voted, "Ennis was making progress, he was the one who initiated the next postcard.  Had Jack lived, Ennis would have tried to be with him more, and he would eventually have made a home with Jack."

Jack and Ennis are star-crossed lovers. They're meant for each other. Their names are written in the stars. Only death has the power to separate them.  :'(
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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2008, 10:01:03 am »
Merci brokeback dev !

You say:     I'm not so optomistic that I think Ennis would change or come around someday.   But for sure I dont think Jack could ever quit Ennis.  The relationship would go on like it had for 20 years, but with fewer and fewer meetings. Also, there is the off chance that Randall and Jack would have moved up to Lightning Flat and whip the old ranch into shape as OMT mentioned to Ennis when Ennis went up to get Jack's ashes.
Either way Jack didnt know how to quit Ennis.       

.......

And may I say or hope:
1- That Ennis was changing and did come around, since he went to see Jack's parents, etc.;

2- Jack would never quit Ennis, and Ennis too would and did not let go of Jack as we see that he hugs that shirt in his trailer as the end of the movie;

3- Since the relationship went on  for 20 years, I think that more and more meetings would have occured, yes since the bond and understand were enriching  at each meeting;

4- and, to me,  Randall did not and would not have been accepted by Jack... on the long run !

Food for thought ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I like your thinking here Artiste.  After reading your posts and all the posts to follow seems everyone is a bit more optomistic.. Now I am too Especially because Ennis did write that post card.  He did go up to Lightning Flat to retreive Jack's ashes and because he he hugged those the two shirts.  But Especially because at the end of this very sad movie he opened his closet in his lonely sparse trailer and said "Jack I swear"  What did he mean?  Jack I swear I love you.  Why did you go off and get killed. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Offline optom3

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2008, 10:31:02 am »
This is very interesting to reconsider this question over a year following this post I made in this thread way-back-when.  In thinking about this again, I still believe most of what I wrote back then.

I still stand by the idea that Ennis was making progress (at a snail's pace) in certain ways in terms of understanding and accepting his relationship with Jack.  We see that, clearly, Jack's death was a shock strong enough to rattle Ennis into doing all sorts of things that he would have been too afraid to do prior to Jack's death (primarily driving all the way to Lightning Flat to meet Jack's parents... and even gathering his courage to call Lureen, etc.).  I wonder if the lake-side fight alone was enough to rattle Ennis to the degree that he really would have tried harder to make things better with Jack.

I do think it's extremely significant that Ennis is the one who sent the final postcard.  Clearly the thought of losing Jack is tremendously profound to Ennis.  We see this in his reactions to the conversation by the lake when he begins to worry about a break-up and obviously we see what happens in the circumstance where he does lose Jack.   So, maybe if Jack had lived he really would have tried harder.  I think Jack's hints and not-so-subtle threats about breaking up during the argument really could have had a major impact on Ennis's behavior and determination to fix things.

One of the last things we hear Ennis saying to Jack is "I can't stand this anymore"... So, according to Ennis's own motto "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it"... this seems to suggest that once you can't stand something anymore you do the opposite and try to fix it.  There's no exit clause in his motto.  If you can't stand something you still don't quit it.

As far as Jack goes, I think he's self-aware enough to know that he's not capable of breaking up with Ennis.  I think that's why he adds the conditional "wish" to "I wish I knew how to quit you."  I don't think he has the will power to resist Ennis and I think he knows that.  If he had lived, I think he would have worked with Ennis to try to make things better.  Like I said in my post a year ago, I think progress would have been in baby-steps.  Mostly I think things would have stayed the same... at least in the short term. 

But, again, I think the argument alone... and airing all the frustrations and some of the secrets... was enough to be a catalyst for some measure of change.




The point you make about Ennis when he says, I can't hardly stand it, is interesting, because as you say ,in his own words if you can't stand something you have to fix it.
Also in the S.S Jack is not sure whether Ennis collapsing, is a heart attack or rage.It is clear that the scene is a culmination of 20 years of things glossed over and never spoken about.
Right at the end of that scene in the SS Jack is thinking ,let be, let be.Directly after he remembers the dozy embrace which so captivates him.So I would guess he is now thinking anything is better than no Ennis.Perhaps the thought that briefly crosses his mind that Ennis has had a heart attack,shocks him back, to once again realising how deep and desperate is his love for him, hence the let be let be.Don't rock the boat and risk loosing him completely.

I certainly think they would have continued together.I don't think Jack, even if he had tried with Randall would have continued.
There is no one in his heart who can replace Ennis.
In real life when we try to do that,the person we use as a substitute generally just reminds us even more of the person we have lost, or given up on.
I wish I could believe that they would eventually moved in together,I am just not sure. In my mind this is where fact and fiction become joined. Even now parts of America are still so homophobic,I struggle to see them together under one roof.
If they had gone down that route, they sure as hell would have to have moved states, to a more liberal one.The problem there is the more liberal states would not have provided Ennis with any work that he enjoyed,and I can't see him living off Jack's money. That would just be a step too far.

Offline Monika

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2008, 03:54:05 pm »
Quit him? No way.
Jack does after all say "I wish I knew how to..." implicating that he doesn´t know how to do that

I think Ennis might have done some progress. As Vermont sunset pointed out to me during the trip to Wyoming Ennis statement to Jack during the "I did once" argumen "I can´t stand to lose anymore, Jack". And if he can´t stand it - he has to fix it, right? And the first step towards that could be him breaking up with Cassie.

But if it had gone so far as them moving in together....don´t know. But progress. I think yes.

But thing´s for certain - Jack would never quit Ennis. To me that just rings very false to the characters and the story. To me BBM is a story about to men who dont want to love each other - but who still (love being a force of nature and all that) and have to pay the prise for that love

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2008, 06:21:35 pm »
Merci brokeback dev !

You say that Ennis thinks about Jack:
       Why did you go off and get killed.           
........

Dev: may I ask, if therefore, Ennis wanted to be protective of Jack ?

I think so... even if his dad had shown him a tortured body of a gay man ! Do you ?

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Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2008, 06:25:12 pm »
Merci buffymon !

Your saying about Ennis' action:      And the first step towards that could be him breaking up with Cassie.

           

...

Buffymon: that surprises me, as if Ennis had a sexual relationship with Cassie, because I do not think that he did ! Do you ?


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Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 06:29:51 pm »
Merci souxi !

You say that Jack: ... would have met up (Ennis) in November as planned, and Jack would have broken things off with Ennis. Ennis would have started drinking heavily and gradually made himself ill.           
..............

Souxi, you think really that Jack would have broke off his relationship with Ennis in the following November ?
Why ?

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Offline Monika

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 11:42:50 pm »
Merci buffymon !

Your saying about Ennis' action:      And the first step towards that could be him breaking up with Cassie.

           

...

Buffymon: that surprises me, as if Ennis had a sexual relationship with Cassie, because I do not think that he did ! Do you ?


Au revoir,
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No I don´t think he did either, but there was clearly a bond between them and they must have been seing each other to some extent - just think of how how heartbroken Cassie gets and her line "Girls don´t fall in love with fun". If she has had time to fall in love, I think they must have been out a few times

Offline Fran

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2008, 01:01:43 am »
I may be in the minority here, but I'm thinking that Ennis and Cassie's relationship was sexual, with Cassie being the initiator, of course, and Ennis going along (just as he did when she wanted to dance and when she wanted a foot rub).

At the bus station, Cassie is clueless as to why Ennis broke up with her, but she's also angry.  She can't figure out why they're no longer together, but she clearly wants to know why.  If they had never had sex, Cassie would have been able to figure out that Ennis just wasn't sexually attracted to her.  Even if she never understood that he was really in love with Jack, at the very least she would have known that there was no sexual chemistry between them and she could understand why they were no longer together:  that Ennis just didn't find her sexually appealing.  She acted much too hurt when she runs into Ennis for their relationship to have been nonsexual.  In my opinion, that kind of hurt only comes about after sex has been thrown into the mix.  It seems to me that Ennis broke her heart.  She clearly had wanted to marry him.  She was in love, and she can't figure out why she got dumped.

Perhaps another clue is the half-empty bottle of white wine in Ennis's refrigerator, the legacy of Cassie.  I think Cassie and Ennis shared at least one intimate moment in that sorry little trailer.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2008, 01:08:58 am »

I think Ennis might have done some progress. As Vermont sunset pointed out to me during the trip to Wyoming Ennis statement to Jack during the "I did once" argumen "I can´t stand to lose anymore, Jack". And if he can´t stand it - he has to fix it, right? And the first step towards that could be him breaking up with Cassie.



Hunh, I always hear it as "I can't stand this no more, Jack."  What do other people hear, or know from the screenplay?

I have always assumed that Ennis and Cassie had a sexual relationship. 

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2008, 02:27:28 am »

Hunh, I always hear it as "I can't stand this no more, Jack."  What do other people hear, or know from the screenplay?

I have always assumed that Ennis and Cassie had a sexual relationship. 


I hear "I jes can't stand this anymore, Jack." Pretty clearly. I just checked it because I thought it's "anymore" rather than "no more".
The line is not in the STS, but we know there are some differences between the actual movie and the STS.

And I can't imagine the relationship between Ennis and Cassie not being a sexual one. Fran explained it already. Additionally, there were years between their first encounter and the breakup (even if we don't believe it's been five years, as the published script in the STS book suggests).
No way they had been together for years and not have had sex.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2008, 02:38:08 am »
As for the opening question: I voted Ennis made progress and he would have come around eventually.
The line quoted in the above post, the breakup with Cassie, his girls short of becoming adults and living their own life, Ennis's expression after Cassie spoke of LOVE in the bus station (the often talked about lightbulb moment), the perspective of being finished with child support payments soon, he knew exactly what they got in Mexico "fer boys like you" (which implies that Ennis was aware of Jack's, and therefore his own, sexuality) etc.
I don't think Ennis was this || short of moving in with Jack, but he made progress, they would have found ways to improve their situation, slowly but surely.

Offline Monika

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2008, 08:13:25 am »
Did Ennis and Cassie know each other for years in the movie? For how many?
I never got the feeling they knew each other very well or were intimite with each other.
In the story the bottle does suggest that they had sex, but since we were never told in the movie that the bottle was from Cassie, I never made that connection. To me (in the movie) their relationship seems rather new and like Cassie never got much from Ennis - not love, not sex, not much of anything. Maybe it is the lack of that "Alma bitterness" on Cassie´s part that make me doubt that their relationship ever got to that point. If sex had been involved, I feel Cassie would have been much more bitter about Ennis dumping her out of the blue. When I watch the break up scene, Cassie to me seems sad, but not bitter. To me it feels like more she had a huge crush on Ennis and the things she had hoped for never came to be, and thats what she´s upset about.


Offline Monika

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2008, 08:15:01 am »

Hunh, I always hear it as "I can't stand this no more, Jack."  What do other people hear, or know from the screenplay?

I have always assumed that Ennis and Cassie had a sexual relationship. 
You´re right, he says something along those lines. But the meaning is pretty much the same.

Offline Fran

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2008, 11:11:36 am »
This is how the DVD subtitles have it:


Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2008, 12:26:00 pm »
Fran, you are the screen capture queen!  :)



Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2008, 01:31:43 pm »
Did Ennis and Cassie know each other for years in the movie? For how many?
I never got the feeling they knew each other very well or were intimite with each other.
In the story the bottle does suggest that they had sex, but since we were never told in the movie that the bottle was from Cassie, I never made that connection. To me (in the movie) their relationship seems rather new and like Cassie never got much from Ennis - not love, not sex, not much of anything. Maybe it is the lack of that "Alma bitterness" on Cassie´s part that make me doubt that their relationship ever got to that point. If sex had been involved, I feel Cassie would have been much more bitter about Ennis dumping her out of the blue. When I watch the break up scene, Cassie to me seems sad, but not bitter. To me it feels like more she had a huge crush on Ennis and the things she had hoped for never came to be, and thats what she´s upset about.



The shocking thing about both Randall and Cassie is that the relationship Jack had with Randall and that Ennis had with Cassie had to have been going on for 4 or 5 years.  A really long time in both cases.  This issue has come up a lot before, because it can be so shocking to realize.  There's a banner in th Childress dinner dance scene that indicates that that took place in 1978 (is that right... I'm forgetting exactly... it's the late 70s in any case).  Based on the idea that Jack dies in 83, that means that Cassie and Randall have been in the picture for quite a while.  In the film Ennis seems to meet Cassie right around the time that Jack meets Randall.

That's one of the reasons the conversation between J & E during their last camping trip is so surprising... they talk about "some waitress" and the "ranch foreman's wife" as if they've never discussed these people before.

Based on the length of the relationship, I think there's essentially no question that it would have been sexual.  Also, Ennis tells Jack he's having sex with her when he says he's "putting the blocks" to the good looking waitress in Riverton.

Somewhere over in Open Forum there's a long discussion about the nature of the relationship between Cassie and Ennis... and the topic of the late chronology of the story is also discussed in I'm guessing several different threads.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Fran

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2008, 02:59:05 pm »
Fran, you are the screen capture queen!  :)

Thanks, Elle. 

I downloaded something called Capture Me 1.4.1 to grab DVD images from my Mac (and then I crop them at Photobucket).

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2008, 06:48:18 pm »
Randall and Jack for 4 or 5 years, really ??

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2008, 02:37:53 pm »

We had a long discussion that involved the consideration of the possibility of the 4 or 5 year length of the relationships that occur between Jack and Randall and Ennis and Cassie in this thread over in Open Forum. Starting around here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,18655.msg356814.html#msg356814



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2008, 11:56:45 pm »
Tonight I popped my BBM DVD in and watched the scenes where Ennis meets Cassie and where Jack meets Randall (I didn't watch the whole movie tonight, just these two scene).  I did this mainly because I wanted to look at the banner in the Childress dinner-dance scene to get the date accurate for these discussions.

The scene with Ennis and Cassie comes directly before the scene where Jack meets Randall, suggesting that the two events happen either somewhat simultaneously, or Ennis meets Cassie slightly earlier than Jack meets Randall.  And, the banner at the dance says 1978.  The camera actually zooms in on the banner in the moment between Jack asking LaShawn to dance and the shot where we actually see them on the dance floor.

So, if Jack dies in 1983, that definitely means that the relationships with both Cassie and Randall lasted about 4 or 5 years.




the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2008, 04:20:26 pm »
Jack had given up on Ennis. The 1983 campfire scene was their farewell as far as Jack was concerned. That to me is the explanation of his memory of the "dozy embrace" and his looks during that memories aftermath, Jack was remembering those wonderful days on the mountain in their youth, and how it was all gone, all irretrievable.

Jack was going to try to bring Randall north to the Twist ranch, otherwise he wouldn't have told OMT about his plans.

Ennis after his conversation with OMT finally fully realizes 3 things:

1) Jack really loved him
2) He really loved Jack
3) Jack was planning to leave him

this is why the Twist ranch closet scene is so deeply emotional, all of the regrets, the shame, the loss, the loneliness of their lives cascade down on Ennis at the same time. That is why I continue to feel in that moment Ennis had a transformational epiphany, he finally connected with his true nature. Too late for Jack, and that is to me the heart of the tragedy of the Brokeback story.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2008, 12:09:42 am »
May I think that you are right brokeplex, by your post !

But not many persons care about that !

At least you and I, and maybe others too care !!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2008, 12:45:03 am »
Are you saying that Ennis then became an one man-man ?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2008, 04:52:10 pm »
I am saying that one way of the other Ennis would have been alone after his last meeting with Jack in 1983. Jack simply had to move on, he deserved a real relationship with someone who could treat their couplings as something more than an anonymous camping trip quickies that just kept repeating itself over and over again for every 6 months for 20 years. In the end, Ennis realized that by his unrelenting denial of Jack and himself, he had created this sad situation, too late for Jack. But, was it too late for Ennis? Probably, I had little hope for Ennis in the end, other than whatever relationships he could still salvage from his children, he was doomed to a lonely old age. Like the elderly cowboy Annie saw playing pool when she received the inspiration for the Brokeback story?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2008, 05:06:17 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

How instructive you are, like a professor ! Happy to read your post, and I am grateful too !!

I agree with you; however, I think that once Jack would have tried elsewhere, he would come back to the nest which is Ennis ??

How about that ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2008, 05:14:37 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

How instructive you are, like a professor ! Happy to read your post, and I am grateful too !!

I agree with you; however, I think that once Jack would have tried elsewhere, he would come back to the nest which is Ennis ??

How about that ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I am moved by not only your complimentary words, but also you faith in Jack's love. But, aren't you really saying that Jack was a glutton for punishment, because that really is what Ennis was - a punisher. And to stick with Ennis was to be punished.

I think Jack deserved MUCH better than Ennis. I would hope that if he had lived, he would have found a better life with Randall.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2008, 05:49:57 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

Your post enlightens me too ! Ennis and Jack grew up both for punishment, do you know ?

You are giving me the proof that Jack as well as Ennis grew up in an islamic-type society !

You understand ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2008, 05:50:59 pm »
May I give you an example of Jack and Ennis now in 2008 ??

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2008, 05:55:24 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

Your post enlightens me too ! Ennis and Jack grew up both for punishment, do you know ?

You are giving me the proof that Jack as well as Ennis grew up in an islamic-type society !

You understand ?

Islamic how? They were both raised Christian, Ennis was Methodist, Jack was Pentecostal. Yes, they were both selfpunishing. but the difference is Ennis also punished others : Alma, Jack, Cassie. Jack just put up with Ennis for way too long! Alma had the good sense to leave and marry the grocer!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2008, 06:15:01 pm »
It does not matter if they were raised protestants, since those religions have history like islam does.

Ennis was raised Methodist, which is punishment in some ways like islam is... and same with Jack being Pentecostal (which is death too) which is also like islamic in many ways; or like those japs who flew planes and killed themselves on USA, Canadian, English... boats in the name of what again ?

There are some islamic ways in christians and jews and in some other religions then and to-day, but not much is talked about that ! Catholics and others like ones stated have changed somewhat refraining from islamic-ideas and ways (like accepting gay marriages and gays a bit), but much remians yet as anti-life !! Some christians used a whip to whip themselves daily as a routine, and still to-day even if the Catholic church refrains from that now, but which was a demand and in demand by their religious orders, did you know ?

Plus, Ennis' dad did show that dead tortured body of a gay man... isn't that like some islamic groups do ?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2008, 10:25:38 pm »
Jack and Ennis were both raised in an environment in which violence was often the solution to a problem. Certainly the murder victim that young Ennis saw confirms that. For Ennis fear became a normal part of his existence, and that became fatal for his attachment to Jack. But, interestingly Jack who grew up under similar conditions, but without the seeing a murder victim, was a hopeful man full of energy and life. Perhaps individual differences also play a role in how persons respond to their environment. I persist in believing that Jack gave up on Ennis and was looking for a way, "to quit" him.

What would have happened to Jack if he had never met Ennis? Would he have still gone to TX and met Lureen? With no Ennis in WY, how many times would he have returned to visit his folks in Lightening Flat. I ask this as I find the Jack character much more interesting and full of so many more possibilities than the Ennis character. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: Would Jack have quit Ennis?
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2008, 10:57:41 am »
Merci brokeplex !

You pose good questions ! And provided are also good answers by you !

Since you say:
     Jack and Ennis were both raised in an environment in which violence was often the solution to a problem.       
......

May I add: isn't that also the muslim  or islamic or other radical religion or non-religious way to-day ? Yes, to-day in their countries: where violence reigns ?

Then by that kind violence, Jack would have been murdered sooner ?

Au revoir,
hugs!