Author Topic: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?  (Read 9382 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« on: December 30, 2006, 01:28:03 am »
Greetings BetterMostians,

So, I'll start with the now-standard disclaimer.  I apologize if this topic has already come up in other threads... but this has been on my mind a bit lately. 

I've been thinking about potential parallels between Jack and Alma Jr., as odd as that might sound.  But I think it's a valid issue and might pose some interesting questions about Ennis.  Essentially, the biggest issue is that Ennis denies himself the opportunity to live with both Jack and Alma Jr.  Both Jack and his daughter offer him this opportunity explicitly (obviously we hear Jack offer this option to Ennis more than once and Alma Jr. sort of begs Ennis to let her live with him... in her own quiet way).  Also, both Jack and Alma Jr. seem to be associated with birds... or bluebirds in particular (and also eagles in the case of Jack).  And... Jack and Alma Jr. (and I assume Jenny) are the people that Ennis seems to love the most in his life... and in all cases he denies himself the potential happiness of building a daily life with them.  I don't know exactly what my question is here.  It just seems to be an interesting angle that hasn't come up so much before.  I guess for me this observation shows that Ennis was capable of denying himself happiness on multiple levels (not just with Jack).  Poor Ennis.  :'(
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2006, 01:32:06 am »
And they are the two who love him as he is. 

I like the direction we're headed as we reach the new year.


Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2006, 02:54:17 am »
 Ennis was capable of denying himself happiness on multiple levels (not just with Jack).  Poor Ennis.  :'([/quote]

Very interesting perspective - a case could also be made for Ennis denying himself a "daily life" with Cassie as well. Of course, I understand he was only dating her, although five years is a long time and especially to not be able to give yourself 'fully' to another person. Someone, (perhaps you Amanda) in another post alluded to the bookends of Ennis not believing himself to be worthy of other people's love or affection (i.e. 'what are you doing' lines to Jack and to Cassie, separately). I definitely agree with the view of Ennis' style of self-denial - likely a culmination of many factors - chiefly, deprivation (economic, emotional, etc.) - all leading to a sense of self-preservation. I loved Jack's comment to Ennis in one of the final camping scenes, "you want to live your miserable life? go ahead!" - implying Ennis had control over many situations, even if he did not believe so himself.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline welliwont

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 12:55:02 pm »

Greetings BetterMostians,

So, I'll start with the now-standard disclaimer.  I apologize if this topic has already come up in other threads... but this has been on my mind a bit lately. 

I've been thinking about potential parallels between Jack and Alma Jr., as odd as that might sound.  But I think it's a valid issue and might pose some interesting questions about Ennis.  Essentially, the biggest issue is that Ennis denies himself the opportunity to live with both Jack and Alma Jr.  Both Jack and his daughter offer him this opportunity explicitly (obviously we hear Jack offer this option to Ennis more than once and Alma Jr. sort of begs Ennis to let her live with him... in her own quiet way).  Also, both Jack and Alma Jr. seem to be associated with birds... or bluebirds in particular (and also eagles in the case of Jack).  And... Jack and Alma Jr. (and I assume Jenny) are the people that Ennis seems to love the most in his life... and in all cases he denies himself the potential happiness of building a daily life with them.  I don't know exactly what my question is here.  It just seems to be an interesting angle that hasn't come up so much before.  I guess for me this observation shows that Ennis was capable of denying himself happiness on multiple levels (not just with Jack).  Poor Ennis.  :'(

Awright, here's me, attacking Ennis again, but I will try not to be too harsh.

Poor Ennis???   Ennis is a goof, denying himself.  The guy is a goofball, why he would deny his daughter to live with him, to me it tells me that he wants to be alone, wants to be lonely.  That's my gut impression.  If I try and dig deeper....

His little daughter is asking to live with him, and in the very next breath Ennis throws up his reasons for denying her.  He does not even consider it for one milli-second.  "I ain't set up for that.  I'm gonna be gone on the round-up."  There are very manageable work-arounds for both these excuses.  Ennis doesn't want her to live with him.  that is the way I read it.  I don't see any underlying reasons for him turning Alma Jr down.

Now for me, if I want something, I work and strive to have it, no two ways about it.  If Ennis does not work and strive to have Alma Jr or Jack live with him, my deduction is that he doesn't really want them living with him.

Am I thick??   ??? ???

Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2006, 12:24:28 pm »
Am I thick??   ??? ???

Well, there are quite a few aspects to this you seem to have either dismissed or not considered.

Ennis' problems, like most intractible problems that can cripple a person's life, cannot be overcome just by "striving" and trying hard. This is a person who has spent his life cut off from connections to other people one way or another. Yes, he does deny himself happiness but to simply dismiss that as being 'a goof' is equivalent to saying that someone who has a problem with stuttering is lazy and doesn't care about communicating clearly because "after all, all he has to do is stop stuttering."

Here's a few other things that you might consider taking into account:

Guilt. This is a person first of all ridden with guilt over parts of himself that he can't accept, and typically people who don't feel they deserve something - or someone - often seem to throw it away. The fact that Alma Junior iis disappointed but doesn't give up trying to reach him suggests that at some level she understands that this isn't a personal rejection of her as his daughter.

Difficulty in communicating. As much as he loves his daughters, Ennis is never quite at ease around them once they're past early childhood.

A fractured life.  His fears and inability to accept his own sexual nature has led him to keep his relationship with Jack his life's great secret, even as that relationship is the most important thing in his life.  And it's one thing to go off on "fishing trips" when their mother is at home with them or when he's living alone; quite another, and a complication, with one or both of the children living with him.

Legal and visitation problems.  This is arguably the 500-pound gorilla in the room. Ennis might not be well educated but it's amazing how quickly people can get an education about family law when they get divorced; especially when children are involved.

At this point in the story, Alma clearly knows what his relationship to Jack is, and an attempt to get primary physical custody, which is what Junior is talking about in the legal sense, would involve a court hearing and a family law judge going over every detail he/she can get hands on. Ennis' financial situation would be contrasted to Alma's and Monroe's and Alma might just see this as the final straw that would get her to go public about the reason their marriage broke up. If she should do that, Ennis would not only not get custody of either of the girls, he might well lose visitation rights.  If he'd had a heterosexual affair, that revelation in court might not be as traumatic for him but the result would likely be the same and this is still true in family law in many states.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.   The reasons Ennis gives Junior might not be the whole story, but they're legitimate reasons. Ranch work isn't a Monday-Friday 8:30-5:00 deal; it involves very long hours and frequent absences. Again, do-able when he was married and their mother lived in the same household; not necessarily a good living situation for a teenage girl at this point. And he's probably aware that her complaint about Alma and Monroe "being too strict" with her is to some extent a teenager's perspective and necessarily limited.

Maybe not the complete answer and it doesn't let him off the hook entirely; but 'trying harder' simply can't address every human tragedy or smooth over every rough spot in family relationships.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 12:35:16 pm by Marge_Innavera »

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2006, 12:40:54 pm »
I have a different take on this. Rather than Alma Jr., isn't Jr. actually Ennis Jr.? That is, she takes after Ennis, but she has learned from observing him and the times are different, so she represents the hope and the future of Ennis. The one who reminds me of Jack is Jenny--she of the asthmatic wheeze, the one who Ennis grabs and comforts, the singer, and the one who doesn't appear again after Jack dies.

She is also the one whose ear Ennis pulls as he said, "I didn't have no wings." She's his little darlin.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2006, 01:49:39 pm »

Ennis' problems, like most intractible problems that can cripple a person's life, cannot be overcome just by "striving" and trying hard. This is a person who has spent his life cut off from connections to other people one way or another. Yes, he does deny himself happiness but to simply dismiss that as being 'a goof' is equivalent to saying that someone who has a problem with stuttering is lazy and doesn't care about communicating clearly because "after all, all he has to do is stop stuttering."

Sorry, I don't agree.  The topic I am discussing is why won't Ennis allow his beloved daughter to live with him?  that's it.  Ennis is a functioning person, he has a job, he goes to work, he is not a totally dysfunctional person.  Yes he has issues about being gay, self denial, etc etc.  I don't think that those problems are an excuse for refusing to live with Alma Jr.  I am not explaining this as well as I would like to, oh well.

Yes I agree that his issues are blocking him from having the sweet life with Jack.  I already don't think he should stay mired in his issues, but I have already argued that point in the past, and I have my opinion, you have yours.



PS: 


Am I thick??   ??? ???


that was a rhetorical question BTW, Marge, but you are entitled to your opinion.  Since you don't really know me, you don't really have an informed opinion about that.
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline fernly

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2006, 02:39:27 pm »
Quote from: Front-Ranger
I have a different take on this. Rather than Alma Jr., isn't Jr. actually Ennis Jr.? That is, she takes after Ennis, but she has learned from observing him and the times are different, so she represents the hope and the future of Ennis. The one who reminds me of Jack is Jenny--she of the asthmatic wheeze, the one who Ennis grabs and comforts, the singer, and the one who doesn't appear again after Jack dies.
She is also the one whose ear Ennis pulls as he said, "I didn't have no wings." She's his little darlin.
Makes sense. Beautifully said.

Oh, geeze, Lee, "the one who doesn't appear again after Jack dies."  I'd always wondered about that. No wonder Jenny 'disappearing' reasonated.

Maybe another way that Jr. takes after Ennis...by the time she tells him about the wedding, seems like it's been planned for quite a while. I wonder if she put off telling her dad, worried, (same as he was to tell Jack about August), expecting Ennis to say exactly what he did at first, that he couldn't.

But I've always thought that her brilliant smile, when Ennis says he will, is what Jack's smile would have looked like, if Ennis had said yes to him.

Ennis was right, he didn't have wings, did he? Had them torn off by his father. Then folded Jack's wings for him in the wild columbine, doing what his daddy taught him to do (that long, rather oblique speech in the story 'explaining' the punch). Ennis couldn't see a way to fly, soon enough, even though I try to believe he would have, given more time with Jack after their confrontation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 05:41:21 pm by fernly »
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2006, 02:53:20 pm »
And for more Ennis/Alma Jr. parallels, there's "This Kurt fellow... does he love you?" I've always thought that Ennis was thinking of Jack loving him... and then he gives 19-year-old Junior the permission that he was never able to give himself.

And to Jane... I think that the fact that Ennis won't let Alma Jr live with him was another sign of how tangled up Ennis was inside. It took Jack's death to push him towards any sort of change, even something as little as going to his beloved daughter's wedding. Ennis is a mess. It's not a good way to be, but I find it understandable, if tragic.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: Jack and Alma Jr.- Parallels?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2006, 03:53:14 pm »

And to Jane... I think that the fact that Ennis won't let Alma Jr live with him was another sign of how tangled up Ennis was inside. It took Jack's death to push him towards any sort of change, even something as little as going to his beloved daughter's wedding. Ennis is a mess. It's not a good way to be, but I find it understandable, if tragic.


Ah Mel, always the stellar articulator!    ;) :-*  Just so dam good at explainin', you even make me understand better what I am trying to say!   :o

Ennis was a mess.  yep, you are dead right there.  The question is, how much of a mess, and how paralytic were his issues?  I can certainly understand what you are saying and we have all discussed this before, and some of you fellow Brokies make such convincing arguments to me for this state of affairs:  How much, how badly how extensively Ennis was affected by the Earl tragedy.  Hell you all can make me see the logic so much that I almost agree with you.

But then, two months later, when the question comes up again, my gut feeling is still about the same as it was before.  I just don't give Ennis a pass for all his shit actions.  Such as denying Alma Jr to live with him.  I think this is based on degree of willingness to forgive.  You guys will forgive Ennis for way more than I will.  I personally do not feel that he gets a blanket Get Out Of Jail Free Card for the way he treated JAck, Alma Jr, and do not forget his girlfriend of five years Cassie!!!  :-\

But I can appreciate that you guys are more forgiving of Ennis.

Happy New Year to all my discussion buddies at BetterMost!  :-* :-* :-*




Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."