Mary Renault Book Discussion

[injest]

She visits the story again in "The Praise Singer" where she tells the story in great detail from the viewpoint of a contemporary....

If you haven't read it; it will break your heart

"The youth had killed for pride, but the man for love: from anger at the hurt to his beloved, and that one man should have the power to do it; from fear that he had the power to take the beloved away."

[Kerry]

She visits the story again in "The Praise Singer" where she tells the story in great detail from the viewpoint of a contemporary....

If you haven't read it; it will break your heart

"The youth had killed for pride, but the man for love: from anger at the hurt to his beloved, and that one man should have the power to do it; from fear that he had the power to take the beloved away."

                                    

[Kerry]

Another word, thrown into the mix by Mary Renault is “hoplite.” She says, of the  forthcoming war with  Syracuse, “many of the knights, not to be left behind, had volunteered as hoplites.” So, what exactly was a hoplite?



“The Hoplite was a heavy metalband that was the central focus of warfare in Ancient Greece. The word hoplite (Greek ὁπλίτης, hoplitēs) derives from hoplon (ὅπλον, plural hopla, ὅπλα) meaning an item of armor or equipment and consequently the entire equipment of the hoplite (but not specifically the circular shield, which is sometimes incorrectly referred to as a hoplon, though it was in fact called an aspis). These soldiers probably first appeared in the late seventh century B.C. They were a citizen-militia, and so were armed as spearmen, which are relatively easy to equip and maintain; they were primarily drawn from the middle class, who could afford the cost of the armaments. Almost all the famous men of ancient Greece, even philosophers and playwrights, fought as hoplites at some point in their lives.
Since the hoplites were a militia force and did not receive permanent wages, campaigns were short and mainly confined to the summer. Armies marched directly to their target. There, the defenders could hide behind city walls, in which case the attackers generally had to content themselves with ravaging the countryside (as siegecraft was undeveloped), or meet them on the field. Battles were usually set piece and intended to be decisive. These battles were short, bloody, and brutal, and thus required a high degree of discipline. Both forces lined up on a level field, usually in a rough phalanx formation around eight ranks deep (though this varied). Other troops were less important; hippeis (cavalry) generally protected the flanks, when present at all, and both light infantry and missile troops were negligible. The best known hoplites were the Spartans, who were trained from birth to become magnificent warriors.”

[injest]

                                   

You read "The Praise Singer"??

it is very bittersweet...

[injest]

One of the reviews for this book says that Alexias is growing up in a time when society is being torn apart by forces they barely see or understand...

in this chapter we begin to see it....and I can't help but compare it to the US today...

They look back on the greatness of past generations and you see some still clinging to the old manners..while a new movement is afoot to bring down the autocracy of the past..ok..I think that is not the right word!! LOL...the upper crust, the leaders..

Alexias hears an interesting arguement speaking of equality...

"Shall I tell you the sin of Alkibiades? He was born too late to into a City of little men. Why did the mob banish Aristides the Just? Because they were sick of hearing his virtue praised. The admitted it. It shamed them. Now they hate to see beauty and wit, valour and birth and wealth, united in one man. What keeps the democracy alive at all but the hatred of excellence; the desire of the base to see no head higher than their own?"

"Not so, by the gods. It is justice, the gift of Zeus to men."

"Justice? If the gods give a man wisdom or forethought, or skill, must he be brought down as if had got them by theft? We shall be laming the best athletes soon, at the demand of the worst, in the name of justice. Or some citizen with pockmarks and a squint will lay a complaint against such a boy as this" (here he pointed suddenly at me) "and his nose will be broken, I suppose, for justice's sake."

I see parellels to our own times...the schools that have banned tag or spelling bees to 'protect' childrens egos...

even handicapped parking spots for an ever widening group of complaints and ailments...

[Kerry]

"Shall I tell you the sin of Alkibiades? He was born too late to into a City of little men. Why did the mob banish Aristides the Just? Because they were sick of hearing his virtue praised. The admitted it. It shamed them. Now they hate to see beauty and wit, valour and birth and wealth, united in one man. What keeps the democracy alive at all but the hatred of excellence; the desire of the base to see no head higher than their own?"

Regarding Alkibiades – this had particular relevance for me as an Australian. All Australians suffer from a peculiar national malady/trait, which is referred to in this country as “Tall Poppy Syndrome.” I feel confident enough to say that the majority of Australians suffer from it. Imagine a garden bed with poppies growing. Further imagine the taller poppies, proudly standing high above all the other shorter poppies. Now imagine a naughty child coming along and maliciously knocking-off the heads of the tall poppies, for no other reason than because they are taller than the rest.

It’s similar to the piece in the Bible (and forgive me if I am unsuccessful in achieving a verbatim quote here – been a long time since I last read it) about a prophet not being loved/venerated in his own home town.

Or another example, closer to home for me. I paint recreationally (oils on canvas). I usually get positive, complimentary remarks about my paintings, from people I barely know. However, from my family and “friends” I get nothing but negativity.

Australians are known for knocking the heads off our most famous tall poppies. We can’t help ourselves! It’s almost a national hobby. Goes waaaaay back to our convict origins, I guess, where we had no respect for authority (some might argue we still don’t!)

And I’m seeing that this is the way the Athenians are reacting to Alkibiades. He is their most dazzling, tallest poppy, and they’re determined to knock him down to size.

[Kerry]

"Justice? If the gods give a man wisdom or forethought, or skill, must he be brought down as if had got them by theft? We shall be laming the best athletes soon, at the demand of the worst, in the name of justice. Or some citizen with pockmarks and a squint will lay a complaint against such a boy as this" (here he pointed suddenly at me) "and his nose will be broken, I suppose, for justice's sake."[/color]

I see parellels to our own times...the schools that have banned tag or spelling bees to 'protect' childrens egos...

even handicapped parking spots for an ever widening group of complaints and ailments...

This made me laugh, when I read it. I’m sure “political correctness” was not even invented when MR wrote TLOTW. I hope political correctness (“PC” for short) isn’t another uniquely Australian term. Let me know if you don’t know what PC is.

Not only is MR referring to PC here, long before the term was coined; she is also sending up the out-of-control monster that PC has become.

I’m not sure about elsewhere in the world, but here in Australia PC is everywhere! And we are all aware of its precepts and what can befall us if we fail to adhere to them One must be constantly aware of one’s English usage, as well as one’s body language. If you moderately offend against PC, you risk only a slight reprimand. However, if you make a biiiiiiig PC boo-boo, you could find yourself before the courts. For example, you are not permitted to say to a woman in the office, “You’re blouse is a lovely colour.” She can sue you for sexual harassment. Or, on a lighter side, (and this has actually happened to me), it is no longer appropriate for a man to be a gentleman and open a door for a lady. He might find himself being told, most aggressively, “Hey, I’ll open my own door, mate. I’m just as good as you are!”

This particular quote from LTOTW, above, reminded me that we are all now forced to use the ramps at the entrances of public buildings, which are installed there to provide wheelchair access for a tiny minority. It is good that the ramps are there (I suspect many architects may not agree) for the disabled, even though it could be viewed by some as a case of “over-kill,” forcing us all to use them.

Breaking all our noses to comply with the pockmarks and squints of the few?

Am I being cruel? Don’t mean to be. Mea culpa!

[Kerry]

As Jess has noted previously, there’s more to Renault than meets the eye. It’s not all about ancient Greece. It’s topical, too. For example:

“As for justice,” Theramenes said, “they have as much notion of it as the guts of a mullet. I tell you, my dear Myron, this very night I could raise a drunken brawl here, strike you before all these witnesses, wound your slaves; and if you would only come to court looking and behaving like a gentleman, I undertake you would lose your case. I, you see, should put on the old tunic I wear on my farm, and have a speech written for an honest poor fellow, which I should con till it came like nature to me. I should bring my children along, borrowing some little ones as the youngest is ten; and we should all rub our eyes with onion. I assure you, in the end it would be you who would pay the fine, for plying your simple friend with stronger stuff than he could afford at home, and trying to profit by it. They would spit on you as you left.”

When I read this, I immediately thought of the despicable “gay rage defence,” whereby someone could quite assuredly and with impunity, take the life of a gay man, and not suffer the consequences under law. Walk free! How? Their defence case would state that they were propositioned for sexual favours by the said gay man (even when this wasn’t the case); that the defendant was so traumatised by these “unnatural advances,” he took the life of the gay man, in an attempt to defend himself against being violated. It was self defence, his attorney would claim.

This actually happened many times. Murderers walked free. It took the judicial system a long time to realise that it wasn’t self-defence at all. It was murder.

Mary Renault was a gay woman. I wonder if she is eluding to “gay rage defence” here.

[injest]

You reminded me of the case in Florida, I believe...a teacher had sex with a thirteen year old...she showed up in court dressed like a little girl all ribbons and curls...

her attorney argued she was too pretty to go to jail. They let her go...

How often do we see defendents that when they were arrested; were dressed like thugs and show up in court dressed for church...and the jury buys it...

[Kerry]

I meant to post this some time ago and became distracted elsewhere (that's too much fanfic for you, Kerry!) 

There were a wide variety of Herms to choose from.

Here are some: