Author Topic: A different viewpoint  (Read 12382 times)

Offline Garry_LH

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 12:06:37 pm »
I feel one may need to be careful reading into what Ennis 'thought' of what he was feeling before the first reunion. At least in the short story, Ennis told Jack it took him a year to realize that he got sick that day they separated in Signal, cuze he should never have let Jack out of his sight. Which is about as close as Ennis ever got to saying the word love in relation to Jack. Then how much truth, half truth, or just out right ignoring of the truth did these two lay on one another, and themselves? I get the feeling, this is do to a good bit of their up bringing, as about anything else. Neither of these men seem to have been shown the possibilities and wonders that life could contain. In some ways, it's almost like neither of them fully believe they deserve to be happy. Though on Jack's part, it may be more a subconscious shooting of himself in the foot that keeps him from seeing beyond the immediate desire to making his dreams a reality.

I keep coming back to the very beginning of the story where Proulx tells us these were two poor high school drop outs going no where.  That poverty, that lack of a sense of accomplishment at even that early of an age, it might be as much an clue as to why these two feel trapped in their own existences, and a good reason both sought employment well beneath their actual skills.  Ad in, that neither one seems to have had a father that showed them any real affection or approval, and you've got two characters that were never given the tools to make the hard decisions in life. At the very least, their decisions were made with out the old saw of examining their own lives.

Rather than thinking through plans Ennis might accept so they could be together, Jack seems to react to situations with out being able to fully imagine a way to make them work. Say, Jack had put forth that little cow and calf operation as something he was going to set up, and he wanted to 'hire' Ennis as foreman. There are several ways Jack could have come at this, none of which he apparently ever considered. In the end, Jack's father seeing Jack as a dreamer without the whit to make his dreams reality, is closer to the truth than I really want to admit.

Then Ennis, for better or worse, seems to have had scared into him a sense of right and wrong, that did stand him in doing right by others as he saw it. It also gave him the ability to stick with a job and get it done. Once, he had set his mind to it. Of course, Ennis's sticking it out, no matter what, was also the better part of his own excuse and problem with ever letting him try to look at the world beyond 'if you don't have nothing, you don't need nothing'. It's only because of the power of what he he feels for Jack, that lets him keep coming back year after year. A love neither is willing to name. A dream Jack can't figure out how to make real. And Ennis, he feels so beat down by his own lack of imagination, he never gives himself the chance to really stick it out with Jack.  These two characters feel to me like they are trapped by the way they were raised. Or, the lack in the way they were raised. Jack, by his dad never showing him nothing. And Ennis, by being shown most all of the wrong things in what it takes to make life worth the living.

I just get the feeling neither of these men are fully capable of looking beyond their immediate need and desire for one another, to actually put into words or thought about where they are at in their lives. Let alone, where they might be, or how to get there. Perhaps, the very power of what they feel blocks them from thinking about their situation, for fear they might lose what little they do have with one another.

Oooo... ok, so much for my morning ramble from here to back and wondering if that makes some sense.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 08:02:51 pm by Garry_LH »
It could be like this, just like this... always.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2007, 03:46:48 pm »
It makes tons of sense to me, Garry. You captured the real feeling of tragedy about Ennis and Jack. And I feel even more so that way about them after seeing the rural Wyoming environment in which the characters are set. It is an environment in which impassive Nature is omnipotent, and mere men are just like insects crawling across a tablecloth.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2007, 08:44:34 pm »
I just had to read all these posts again because the sadness of the grieving plains rolls down on me when I think of my friend who drifted away after a misunderstanding and now is completely silent.  :'(

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Offline nic

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2007, 10:09:04 am »
Aww, I'm sad to hear that FR - was it a forum friend? 

I'm also glad in a way as I checked out the thread seeing it near the top of updated threads whilst randomly hopping about the site as I do.  I like to do this, as I don't have the patience to normally get involved in threads where I'd love to write long replies but get too frustrated so I like just stumlbing upon gems here & there, of which there are many where BBM is concerned.

On this topic, it strongly bears it out that if one has strong Ennis-like tendencies then one is very protective of Ennis & tends towards the view that marlb42 posted. This has indeed brought about heated debates in other arenas where this view is stated then attacked by people that are more pro-Jack and there can be some very polarised views on whose "fault" it was.  I am very Ennis-like myself & could have written marlb42's post myself.  However, I found it very iluminating when I read the views of more pro-Jack fans as it was almost like discovering the story again or reading it through a different pair of spectacles! 

Ultimately they both had negative points concerning the relationship, as any partners do, & it is very interesting to hash through them but coming up with a consensus that all can agree on is never going to happen. It's fun as long as it doesn't go too negative, as it appears it might have done with someone in FR's case.  BBM made me realise this life is all about the human contacts we make, & the good ones should be cherished, whether online or in RL.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2007, 01:13:12 pm »
BBM made me realise this life is all about the human contacts we make, & the good ones should be cherished, whether online or in RL.

Well put, Nic!

Scott6373

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2007, 01:21:04 pm »
Well put, Nic!


But isn't also a message about coming to terms with the reality of what does not work in our lives.  Changing those things, even if it means leaving people behind, that while we care for, we know in our heart of hearts keep us from being the person we're supposed to be.

Offline Cameron

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2007, 02:46:49 pm »
But isn't also a message about coming to terms with the reality of what does not work in our lives.  Changing those things, even if it means leaving people behind, that while we care for, we know in our heart of hearts keep us from being the person we're supposed to be.

What great thoughts here.  It is nice to see my old post from IMDB brought up again here.  Scott, great post but I have a question.  It is really possibly to leave behind people that one cares about, really cares about?  Even it they are ultimately stopping one from being the person one wants to be and if even they are worse than that, it is still possible to care.  I guess some, yes, but others I don't know.

Your post made me wonder.



Scott6373

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2007, 02:50:53 pm »
What great thoughts here.  It is nice to see my old post from IMDB brought up again here.  Scott, great post but I have a question.  It is really possibly to leave behind people that one cares about, really cares about?  Even it they are ultimately stopping one from being the person one wants to be and if even they are worse than that, it is still possible to care.  I guess some, yes, but others I don't know.

Your post made me wonder.

Yes I do believe it's possible, and sometimes even vital.  There have been people in my life that I have cared a great deal about, but they made choices that put them on a different path than me:  one that I couldn't and shouldn't follow them on.

Offline nic

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2007, 05:54:37 pm »
Do you think Jack should have given up on Ennis then?

I find it hard to cut ties with certain people, because I rarely make meaningful ties with anyone so I really place a lot of worth on any I do.  In some circumstances it is best to move on if you can, but you have to be comitted to believing you will be better off in the long run which can be so very difficult to do.
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injest

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Re: A different viewpoint
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2007, 07:32:48 pm »
Do you think Jack should have given up on Ennis then?

I find it hard to cut ties with certain people, because I rarely make meaningful ties with anyone so I really place a lot of worth on any I do.  In some circumstances it is best to move on if you can, but you have to be comitted to believing you will be better off in the long run which can be so very difficult to do.

and the problem with doing that is you may come to a time in your life when it gets easier to just cut people out rather than work with them....and that leads to being truly alone.

I know in my own life (for very good reasons) I cut contact with my own extended family. I don't go to family reunions, I don't send out Christmas cards...nothing....but just in the last couple of years I realized that that coping mechanism was destroying my friendships....because when the going got rough my thought was "Hey, I am tough! I can never see you again and won't even care!" so I walk away...

I am fortunate to have a small but determined group of friends...and one very special one that will tell me just how the cow ate the cabbage...and I am working on this...