Author Topic: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations  (Read 15975 times)

Offline Kerry

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Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« on: January 19, 2007, 07:41:27 am »

Niankhkhnum & Khnumhotep

Were they lovers?

Were they the Ancient Egytian equivalent of Jack & Ennis?

Who were Niankhkhnum & Khnumhotep?

We know they lived during the Fifth Dynasty of the Old Kingdom in Ancient Egypt (2450-2325 BC).

We also know that even though they were both married with children, they chose to be buried together in their own tomb alone. And that the paintings on the walls of the tomb depict them embracing, holding hands and gazing into each other's eyes. And though their children are shown with them in some of the paintings, their wives are not. All of this went against every convention of the day.

www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep

Visit their tomb and see the beautiful paintings of Niankhkhnum & Khnumhotep facing Eternity together, arm in arm.


« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 02:57:29 am by Kerry »
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Offline David

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 08:10:28 am »
"OVERSEER OF THE MANICURISTS IN THE PALACE OF THE KING."   ?   oh yeah.


They look pretty young in the paintings.   Perhaps they were lovers and met an unfortunate fate because of that?      Nonetheless, the depictions are certainly thoughtful.

Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 08:16:55 am »
"OVERSEER OF THE MANICURISTS IN THE PALACE OF THE KING."   ?   oh yeah.

Some things just don't change  ::) At least they weren't the King's hairdressers or court choreographers . . . or window dressers at the Pyramid Shopping Mall  :laugh:
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 08:29:53 am by Kerry »
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Scott6373

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 09:01:27 am »
I dunno...they wear too much makeup...hehehehehehe

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 07:47:14 pm »
Kerry, I have read a little of these two Old Kingdom tomb-brothers (in exactly which way, we can only guess), and enjoyed seeing them referenced here. References and depictions of same-sex affection and eroticism seem virtually non-existent in ancient Egyptian civilization, at least in the fragments that have come down to us.

And yet, I remember reading a stray reference once to a Pharaoh who was regarded with scorn for his relations with one of his generals. No mention was made in my source of the Pharaoh's identity (or the general's, for that matter), and I would really appreciate learning this someday. Do you by any chance know anything of this?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 08:09:39 pm by moremojo »

Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 09:59:49 pm »
They look pretty young in the paintings.   Perhaps they were lovers and met an unfortunate fate because of that?     

It was never the intention of Ancient Egyptian art to photographically represent reality. Practically everything was stylised. No matter how old and disfigured you may have been when you went to meet your maker, you were always portraid as youthful and at the height of your vigour. This was primarily because the paintings in your tomb had to make you look your best when you stood before Osiris, Anubis, Isis and Nepthys, for the weighing of your heart, to determine whether or not you would progress forward to Everlasting Life. And the way you were represented in your tomb paintings (as well as how you looked in the painting on the lid of your sarcophagus) determined how you would appear in the Afterlife.

Ya gotta love those zany Egyptians!  ;)
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2007, 04:04:05 pm »
This may be slightly OT and if so, I apologize.

After I came out to my parents the second time (long story) my Mother sat down with me one day and told me about the Sioux attitude towards homosexuality.

Not only did the Sioux (along with a large number of other North American tribes) accept homosexuals, they elevated them; almost to a "god like" position within the tribe. The gay man (and to a lesser degree a gay woman) was seen as a "bridge" between the male and female genders. Homosexuals were called "Wink'te" which loosely means "half man" in the Lakota language. Wink'te were thought to have been sent to the tribe by Wankan Tanka (The Great Spirit or God) to heal the tribe and restore harmony and balance to the People. Wink'te were also believed to be magical because of their close association with the Great Spirit. Wink'te had the ability to commune with God, and therefore people within the tribe would ask the gay man or woman to offer up prayers on their behalf.

Wink'te were often married too. It was considered a great honor to be espoused to a wink'te. Often male wink'te would be married to a great warrior of the tribe as a reward for his bravery in defending the tribe.

Unfortunately, after the Whites arrived in North America, Christian missionaries began evangelizing to the various tribes and Native attitudes towards homosexuals took a negative turn. Today, many Native Americans have strong anti-gay feelings which almost border on homophobic. But there is a resurgence within many Native American circles to return to the old ways and traditions, including the total acceptance of gay men and women.

If you are interested, I can provide you with some internet links to more information.

Okay. Sorry about that. I find this Egyptian thread very interesting Kerry!  :)
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Offline TXdoug

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 07:38:11 pm »
VERY interesting thread, Kerry. I look forward to your posts and pictures. :)

Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2007, 08:46:54 pm »
If you are interested, I can provide you with some internet links to more information.

Thank you for posting that interesting information, David. I remember once reading something about gays in pre-Christian Native American societies being considered spiritual link entities. Forgive me if I've got this wrong along the way, but is it true that they were often the tribal "Medicine Man"? It is my understanding that gay men within many indigenous societies around the world take on a spiritual role within their communities - as shaman, for instance.  David, I would be very interested, indeed, to read more about this fascinating subject. Kindly post the links publicly either here or at a new thread. I'm sure others here at BetterMost would be interested to read about this. You must be so very proud of your wonderful heritage, David. And I can tell how much you love your dear mother. I know very well what you are going through right now. Though it has been three years since she passed away, you still have some time to go yet, before you emerge from the dark cloud of mourning. I'm guessing you were probably 41 when you lost your Mum? My mother also died when I was 41, and can I tell you something? I still miss her every day. We were very close. She was the first person I ever told I was gay and she only gave me unconditional love in return. She was always my best friend. The cliche about time healing all wounds is correct. The edge goes off the grief, in time. And what you're left with is their love. My Mum is always with me. Always will be. I firmly believe that.
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Offline TXdoug

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2007, 09:37:43 pm »
Yes, David , please post the links or better yet start a new thread about this VERY interesting area of Native American life. Posts and pictures of Native American Civilization especially your tribe and your life would be WONDERFUL. Your personal sharing  would add to this website. Also...please translate the words in your "signature" at the bottom of your posts. Thanks.  :)

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2007, 09:42:32 pm »
Thank you for posting that interesting information, David. I remember once reading something about gays in pre-Christian Native American societies being considered spiritual link entities. Forgive me if I've got this wrong along the way, but is it true that they were often the tribal "Medicine Man"? It is my understanding that gay men within many indigenous societies around the world take on a spiritual role within their communities - as shaman, for instance.  David, I would be very interested, indeed, to read more about this fascinating subject. Kindly post the links publicly either here or at a new thread. I'm sure others here at BetterMost would be interested to read about this. You must be so very proud of your wonderful heritage, David. And I can tell how much you love your dear mother. I know very well what you are going through right now. Though it has been three years since she passed away, you still have some time to go yet, before you emerge from the dark cloud of mourning. I'm guessing you were probably 41 when you lost your Mum? My mother also died when I was 41, and can I tell you something? I still miss her every day. We were very close. She was the first person I ever told I was gay and she only gave me unconditional love in return. She was always my best friend. The cliche about time healing all wounds is correct. The edge goes off the grief, in time. And what you're left with is their love. My Mum is always with me. Always will be. I firmly believe that.

You are correct Kerry! Absolutely correct. They were given many spiritual roles in the tribe. Quite often they named the new babies, and young men would consult with a wink'te just after a vision quest. Gay men sometimes went into battle too, although they rarely actually did any fighting. Gay men were considered "lucky" (for lack of a better word) because they had such a close union with God. The warriors always protected the wink'te during any battles and made sure nothing happened to him. Crazy Horse often brought the tribal wink'te along during battles.

The local Native American group I belong to in Indianapolis recognizes me as wink'te, and I am in charge of naming new members. It's quite an honor for me. Like I said, there is a renewed interest in returning to the old ways, and many Native Americans are starting to view homosexuals like our ancestors did 150 or more years ago.

I sure will post those links! I will post them within the next day or two for you, okay?

Yes, I miss my Mother very much. She taught me many things about my Sioux heritage. I'm still learning though. There is a lot to learn!  :)

I sure am sorry to hear about your Mother's death Kerry.  :'(
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2007, 09:44:55 pm »
Yes, David , please post the links or better yet start a new thread about this VERY interesting area of Native American life. Posts and pictures of Native American Civilization especially your tribe and your life would be WONDERFUL. Your personal sharing  would add to this website. Also...please translate the words in your "signature" at the bottom of your posts. Thanks.  :)

Thanks Doug!   :)

My "sig" or "tag" (I'm not sure what they call it) is Lakota. It means "Until we meet my friend, keep a happy heart".  :)
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2007, 10:32:44 pm »
The local Native American group I belong to in Indianapolis recognizes me as wink'te, and I am in charge of naming new members. It's quite an honor for me. Like I said, there is a renewed interest in returning to the old ways, and many Native Americans are starting to view homosexuals like our ancestors did 150 or more years ago.

This sounds like a great honour, indeed. I'm so pleased to hear that the old ways are returning.
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Offline TXdoug

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2007, 12:22:15 am »
Thanks David . I hope you will enlighten and instruct us about your Native American / Sioux heritage. :)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 12:25:12 am by TXdoug »

Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2007, 12:24:53 am »
Thanks David . I hope you will enlighten and instruct us about your Native American heritage. :)

 :o  Congratulations on becoming a Junior Ranch Hand, Doug!!!   :laugh:
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Offline TXdoug

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2007, 12:31:35 am »
Thanks Kerry . I hope David will share a new thread with us about his Sioux heritage. You and he have a real gift of words , imagination,  discussion and educating us  on VERY interesting subjects :)

Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2007, 12:40:02 am »
Kerry, I have read a little of these two Old Kingdom tomb-brothers (in exactly which way, we can only guess), and enjoyed seeing them referenced here. References and depictions of same-sex affection and eroticism seem virtually non-existent in ancient Egyptian civilization, at least in the fragments that have come down to us.

And yet, I remember reading a stray reference once to a Pharaoh who was regarded with scorn for his relations with one of his generals. No mention was made in my source of the Pharaoh's identity (or the general's, for that matter), and I would really appreciate learning this someday. Do you by any chance know anything of this?

Scott - I've not heard anything about the gay pharaoh and general. I mentioned it to a chum, who shares my interest in the ancient world, and he said he'd heard about them. Alas, like you, he couldn't remember where. He couldn't provide me with more details. Should I come across any info in my travels, I'll post it here.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2007, 12:52:21 am »
Kerry, I have read a little of these two Old Kingdom tomb-brothers (in exactly which way, we can only guess), and enjoyed seeing them referenced here. References and depictions of same-sex affection and eroticism seem virtually non-existent in ancient Egyptian civilization, at least in the fragments that have come down to us.

And yet, I remember reading a stray reference once to a Pharaoh who was regarded with scorn for his relations with one of his generals. No mention was made in my source of the Pharaoh's identity (or the general's, for that matter), and I would really appreciate learning this someday. Do you by any chance know anything of this?

Scott - I've just found this interesting link re a "Third Gender" in Ancient Egypt:

www.well.com/user/aquarius/egypt.htm

And if I'm reading it correctly, David, it looks like you weren't so OT after all, because it appears that we may have served as priests in Ancient Egypt, also.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2007, 02:20:59 am »
Thanks David . I hope you will enlighten and instruct us about your Native American / Sioux heritage. :)

I'll do my best Doug. Like I said, I have much to learn too. But for many years, my Mother taught me a lot, and I do meet with some very knowledgable Native American friends from many different tribes. I will do my best to share what I have learned from them too!  I don't want to OT this thread though. Perhaps Kerry might consider changing the title of this thread to "Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations" or something similar. Or perhaps I could start I new thread. Either would be perfectly fine with me.  :D

:o  Congratulations on becoming a Junior Ranch Hand, Doug!!!   :laugh:

Yes, Congratulations Doug on your new BetterMost level! Congratulations to Kerry too. It looks like Brokeback finally "got him good".  :)
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2007, 03:00:38 am »
Perhaps Kerry might consider changing the title of this thread to "Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations" or something similar.

Your wish is my command, David!  Consider it done!  ;D
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2007, 05:30:02 pm »
Your wish is my command, David!  Consider it done!  ;D

Aww! Thank you Kerry!  :-*

Native Americans had some interesting ways of identifying gay people. Quite often they would test potential wink'te at a very young age. If the Mother of a child suspected the child was gay, she would mention this to the spiritual leader of the tribe.

One common test they used (at least in many of the various Sioux tribes) was the "Basket or Bow" test. A ring was constructed using highly flammable material such as dry brush and sticks, and two objects were placed in the center of the ring; a basket and a bow. The child was instructed to enter the ring just as the dry brush was ignited. They would then tell the child to pick up only one object and exit the ring. If the child was male, the elders would consider the results of this test  "positive" if he grabbed the basket instead of the bow.

The child would also be questioned extensively by the pejuta wacasa (medicine man) or the wicasha wakan (holy man) who, as Kerry accurately pointed out, was often a gay man (wink'te). See? Even back then Native Americans believed in using their "gaydar". lol

I had to reinstall my copy of AOL a couple of weeks ago, and for some reason it wiped out all my bookmarks. I am currently looking around on the Internet for those web sites I was telling you about. Just as soon as I find them, I'll post the links. Don't worry though, I'll find them!   :)


Edited for typos.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 08:42:04 pm by David925 »
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2007, 06:39:31 pm »
The child would also be questioned extensively by the pejuta wacasa (medicine man) or the wicasha wakan (holy man) who, as Kerry accurately pointed out, was often a gay man (wink'te). See? Even back then Native Americans believed in using their "gaydar". lol

David, can I share something with you? When I was a child, long before the age of my sexual awakening, I used to go to the local cinema on a Saturday afternoon to watch the latest “Cowboys & Indians” movie. My attention was always drawn to the Indians. I guess it was a combination of things – their exotic dress, beads, feathers, war paint. And guess which member of the tribe fascinated me the most? It was the guy with the coolest headdress of the lot. The guy with the buffalo headdress. The Medicine Man. When I was a little boy, I would have done anything to have one of those buffalo headdresses! And now what is it that you’re telling me, David? That this guy I singled out for special attention was gay? Well, how’s that for finely-tuned, early-advent gaydar? And I didn’t even know it!

 :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 12:18:54 am by Kerry »
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2007, 12:24:53 am »
It was all Hollywood fantasy with the buffalo headdress, wasn't it?  :-\  Go ahead, you can tell me. I can take the truth LOL!  :)
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2007, 12:56:49 am »
It was all Hollywood fantasy with the buffalo headdress, wasn't it?  :-\  Go ahead, you can tell me. I can take the truth LOL!  :)

Hey Kerry. I know Hollywood likes to inject a lot of "fanfare" in their movies, but in reality I think it varied from tribe to tribe. I really don't know too much about all the different ceremonial costumes used. I do know the Sioux quite often painted their faces, especially just before and after a battle or a hunt.

David, can I share something with you? When I was a child, long before the age of my sexual awakening, I used to go to the local cinema on a Saturday afternoon to watch the latest “Cowboys & Indians” movie. My attention was always drawn to the Indians. I guess it was a combination of things – their exotic dress, beads, feathers, war paint. And guess which member of the tribe fascinated me the most? It was the guy with the coolest headdress of the lot. The guy with the buffalo headdress. The Medicine Man. When I was a little boy, I would have done anything to have one of those buffalo headdresses! And now what is it that you’re telling me, David? That this guy I singled out for special attention was gay? Well, how’s that for finely-tuned, early-advent gaydar? And I didn’t even know it!

 :)

Well, I think I've heard roughly 5 - 10 percent of the population is gay. My guess is this was probably also true hundreds of years ago. Therefore, it wouldn't be too unusual for tribes to find themselves without a gay tribal member. I also suspect that  just because a person was gay, he or she wouldn't automatically become a spiritual leader of the tribe. They might have had other skills or talents that would better serve the tribe (musician, dancer, etc). The gay person certainly would have been an elevated and valued member of the tribe, no matter what he or she did. But yeah, quite often if the tribe was blessed with a wink'te, he or she would be placed in some sort of religious position, including a holy man.

I'm not sure if my tribe (Oglala Lakota) actually used a Buffalo headdress, but I don't see why they wouldn't.

I remember my Mother telling me our tribe did sometimes "adopt" non Native people into the tribe (think "Dances With Wolves"). She also told me our tribe sometimes would adopt a non Native gay person. Obviously back then, gay people were chastised and cast out of White communities. When this happened, the Sioux would adopt the gay person. I have not been able to verify this in books or the Internet, but I have no reason to doubt my Mother's word. This often happened in the South during the years of slavery. Escaped slaves would sometimes flee to the Native American tribes in the area (Cherokee, Choctaw, Seminole, etc) and assimilate rather than risk fleeing to the North and getting caught by the local regulators. So, the Sioux weren't the only tribes to "adopt" non Native people. Many tribes in North America did it.
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Offline TXdoug

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2007, 01:04:37 am »
David...may I ask what your personal Sioux/Ogala Lakota tribe name is ?  :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 01:08:24 am by TXdoug »

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2007, 01:24:38 am »
David...may I ask what your personal Sioux/Ogala Lakota tribe name is ?  :)

Do you mean the exact name of my tribe? My tribe is the Oglala tribe (Lakota) which is one of three branches of the Sioux tribe (the other 2 major branches are the Dakota and Nakota).

Or do you mean the Indian name my mother gave me? Of course my legal name is David, but my mother also gave me the Lakota name Wanbli Cikala (Little Eagle). When I was roughly 17, I participated in a vision quest, and I received the name Yamni Tasunka (Three Spirit Horses).

Did I answer your question?

For now, I think we should return to ancient Egypt because I would like to learn more about these gay Pharaohs!   :)
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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2007, 01:39:16 am »
If you gentlemen would like we could split this into two threads...there certainly seems like more than enough information for two...

up to ya'll of course!!  ;D ;)

Offline TXdoug

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2007, 08:46:29 am »
Thanks , David, you answered my question which was about your Indian name (s) :)
Yes...more about Ancient Egypt and I hope ,David, you will continue posting about your Native American/Indian heritage.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2007, 09:53:10 pm »
Okay, I managed to track down a couple of these web sites I was telling you about....

http://www.androphile.org/preview/Culture/NativeAmerica/amerindian.htm


http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/gender/intersexuals/article_native_american.htm

I'll keep looking for more of them. But at least this is a start.   :)
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Offline David In Indy

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2007, 11:16:52 pm »
This is one of the web sites I was really trying to find....

http://www.tperkins.com/spiritual/two_spirit_people.html

Thank God I found it.   :)
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2007, 12:59:02 am »
This is one of the web sites I was really trying to find....

http://www.tperkins.com/spiritual/two_spirit_people.html

Thank God I found it.   :)

David - This is amazing. You get to a certain stage in your life and you think you've heard it all. And then from right out of left-field, you hear about something that's exciting and totally different - something you never knew existed before. This is the case with me re the Winkte.

I've just read my way through all the sites you posted and saved them to my favourites. Have also saved the beautiful pics to my PC. It was a real eye-opener for me. I never knew of the existence of this phenomenon until now. The philosophy of your people is so very spiritually evolved. Much more so than tired old Christianity.

I feel highly honoured that you have shared this information with me. Honoured and very inadequate, when standing before the beauty and dignity of this great culture.

I loved this quote:

As Joe Medicine Crow, a Crow traditionalist, told Walter Williams, “We don’t waste people the way white society does. Every person has their gift.”

Thank you again for sharing this with me, David.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2007, 01:11:47 am »
You're welcome!  :)

I'll keep looking for some more web sites. I can't believe I lost all my bookmarks when I reinstalled my America Online software.  >:(

Yeah, the customs varied from tribe to tribe, but I think you're finding out all the tribes treated homosexuals with respect. And as I mentioned before, many tribes actually elevated gay people to a god like position; especially tribes like the Sioux. Perhaps you will remember this the next time you watch "Dances With Wolves"; a movie about the Oglala Sioux. They would have held you in very high esteem, even as a white man! Gay people were very special to Native Americans; no matter what race they were.  :)

Yes, I love that quote too. This reminds me of the Hopkinsville, KY powwow I attended last year. The theme of the powow was "We are all one tribe". I thought it was beautiful.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2007, 06:39:49 am »
And as I mentioned before, many tribes actually elevated gay people to a god like position; especially tribes like the Sioux.

I can quite believe why they would do so, David, because I have already experienced this on two occasions, from the only Winkte I know. You!  :)

The other day, I mentioned to you that we were having heat-wave conditions here in Sydney and that bush-fires were encircling the city. Well, the next thing I knew, it started to rain, which not only lowered the temperature, but also extinguished the bush-fires. And there's more! Remember when I recently told you I'd lost my avatar and didn't know how to get it back. Soon after, it miraculously re-appeared! When I told you of the latter, you humbly declined all credit.

Coincidence? I wonder. We are talking about very ancient, powerful, primal forces here. Sophisticated belief systems stretching back over countless generations. I'm sure they got it "right," long before we came along with our puny Middle Eastern God concept.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 06:46:38 am by Kerry »
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Offline TXdoug

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2007, 01:04:03 pm »
Thanks, David, for sharing these AWESOME websites.  :)

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2007, 05:38:17 pm »
"OVERSEER OF THE MANICURISTS IN THE PALACE OF THE KING."   ?   oh yeah.

Quote
Some things just don't change  ::)

I have a big volume on sex throughout the ages and in the Old Empires section they mentioned these two with the same inscription.  I LMAO thinking the exact same thing.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2007, 08:42:11 pm »
I can quite believe why they would do so, David, because I have already experienced this on two occasions, from the only Winkte I know. You!  :)

The other day, I mentioned to you that we were having heat-wave conditions here in Sydney and that bush-fires were encircling the city. Well, the next thing I knew, it started to rain, which not only lowered the temperature, but also extinguished the bush-fires. And there's more! Remember when I recently told you I'd lost my avatar and didn't know how to get it back. Soon after, it miraculously re-appeared! When I told you of the latter, you humbly declined all credit.

Coincidence? I wonder. We are talking about very ancient, powerful, primal forces here. Sophisticated belief systems stretching back over countless generations. I'm sure they got it "right," long before we came along with our puny Middle Eastern God concept.

Oh Kerry, I think you should go back read the definition of "wink'te" again! A wink'te doesn't have to be Native! A wink'te is simply a gay person; a "two spirit" person. Wink'tes can be Native, White, Black, Asian, Mideastern, Hispanic.... anyone! Certainly most of the wink'tes Native Americans knew and interacted with were Native, but this wasn't always the case. This is why I mentioned the movie "Dances With Wolves" in my previous post. Many Native tribes adopted non Native people; the Sioux tribes frequently did this. If the tribe was fortunate enough, they would invite White (and other non Natives) wink'tes into their fold. Wink'tes were viewed as a "bridge" and a "balance" to the people, sent by God to help the tribe. Race had little or nothing to do with it. As I just said, most wink'tes were Native American, but they didn't have to be. Gay is gay to Native Americans. Race is not a factor. Any gay person from any race is a wink'te.

"Dances With Wolves" was a wonderful movie and I was happy to see a movie about my particular tribe and MY people. It also dispelled many rumors and myths about Native Americans. One thing it DIDN'T address was the wink'tes in the various Native American tribes; a historical fact. (Sometimes they were called "Berdaches". Oh I hate that word!) I suppose they left this out because of the time the movie was released. Perhaps they felt people in the early 1990's were not yet ready to learn about the highly respected status of gay people in Native America. Who knows? But they left it out of the movie and I was disappointed.

I would LOVE to think I was responsible for these good things happening to you right now, Kerry. But if this does have anything to do with wink'tes and ancient powers, it is probably something you are doing all on your own! Those same powers working for me also work for you!  :)


Edit: Typos. OF COURSE!! I keep forgetting we have a spell checker now.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 08:53:52 pm by David925 »
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2007, 10:55:07 pm »
I would LOVE to think I was responsible for these good things happening to you right now, Kerry. But if this does have anything to do with wink'tes and ancient powers, it is probably something you are doing all on your own! Those same powers working for me also work for you!  :)

You have a wonderful way with words, David. I was very moved by what you said. And you're right, I had forgotten that a Wink'te does not necessarily have to be of Native American ancestry. I remember seeing "Dances with Wolves" many years ago and enjoyed it very much. I hadn't realised/remembered that it involved the Sioux. I must borrow it and re-watch it. I'll be thinking of you when I do.  :)
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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2007, 11:13:26 pm »
ya'll go back and fix typos?? man I would be a week doing that if I did....

(spell check is for wimps!)


Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2007, 12:58:54 am »
I have a big volume on sex throughout the ages and in the Old Empires section they mentioned these two with the same inscription.  I LMAO thinking the exact same thing.

What is that Delalluvia?

Please tell us about them!  :)
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2007, 01:27:16 am »
Here is a beautiful essay from a modern wink'te of the Blackfoot tribe.

I must admit I learned a couple of things from it. I also noticed a few very subtle differences between the Blackfoot and Oglala. If anyone cares to know, I will list them for you. They are very minor.

I am going to post this essay because I have been having many repeated problems logging on to their server.


(This was taken from the gender.org website)



Winyanktehca: Two-souls person

I am 'Sihasapa', 'Lakota', or rather, that is to say that I am of the Blackfoot tribe. We are one of seven tribes of the Sioux nation. I am Native American. An old Lakota word, "Winyanktehca," has today been contracted to the simple word, "winkte," meaning, 'two-souls-person,' or more directly meaning, 'to be as a woman.' (I would like to suggest that in this speech, I will make use of the word 'winkte' synonymously for 'gender-crosser,' in either direction.) I am 'Wakan' - to my people I am sacred and mysterious, I am a spirit person. The Grandfathers tell me this. I have my feet rooted in the earth of my ancestors and my spirit soars with them in the "land above the pines." The anthropologists call me 'Berdache,' but this is wrong. This word has come a long way from its beginnings in Arabia. It means "kept boy" . . . that, I am not. The Western medical community calls me 'transsexual', but this is not entirely true either. I am 'winkte,' I am a gender-crosser. My people see me as multidimensional and I do not have to fight for a place in my society to be accepted. I already have a place, a very special and sacred place. In my culture I represent a profound healing, a reconciliation of the most fundamental rift that divides us, human from human - gender.

I was called through a vision, by "Anog Ite", (Double Face Woman) from out of the womb, to be that which I am. She offered me a choice. Lakota deities never order. My gender transformation was called for by the Spirits. She blessed me with skills of a supernatural kind. One of our 'Wicasa Wakan.' or Medicine Men of today, John Lame Deer, says in his book, Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions, 'winkte' are men who dress like women, look like women and act like women. They do so by their own choice or in obedience to a dream. They are not like other men, but 'Wakan Tanka', the Great Spirit, made them 'winktes' and we accept them as such. To us a man is what nature, or his dreams, make him. We accept him for what he wants to be. That's up to him. In our tribe we go to a 'winkte' to give a new born child a secret name. They have the gift of prophecy, and the secret name a 'winkte' gives to a child is believed to be especially powerful and effective. In former days a father gave a 'winkte' a fine horse in return for such a name. If nature puts a burden on a person, it also gives a power and that which I produce with my hands is "highly desirable." Anog Ite has set my feet on both sides of the 'line' and I can see into the hearts of both men and women. We are hunters and we keep the house, we cook and do beadwork. I . . . have chosen the path I have walked. In the Lakota language there are no personal pronouns and a child is simply a child until the age or four or five, when he or she shows that which they are. I have a place also, in this . . . your society.

My people have always held their 'winkte' in awe and reverence and before the 'white-man' came to the 'new world' we were many. But our numbers shrank and we began to hide within ourselves as our religious systems were attacked and shattered by western attitudes. Because of the impact of white ridicule we had all but disappeared. Because of the enormous difference between European societies and Native American societies, differences which theoretically rules out any comparison of their respective sex and gender roles, we must ask ourselves, "What is being lost?" Is it possible that within a Native American interpretation we see something that a Western point of view cannot? Being Lakota, I know myself as something precious and the dignity in such knowing pulls me to my full tallness. Being 'winkte' however, allows me the full capability of achieving a strong ego identity, originality, and an active inner life, which is characteristic of adult individuation and personality development.

We are "shamans." We are called upon to bestow secret and powerful names on the new born, names which represent 'long-life' and which could lead to fame. Sitting Bull, Black Elk, even Crazy Horse had a secret 'winkte' name which only a few people knew. These names are often very sexy, even funny, very outspoken. You don't let a stranger know them; he would kid you about it! We were consulted to divine the success of proposed battles. We were tied closely to the war complex, we were even a crucial part of it. We treated the wounded we had custody of the scalps and carried these into camp. We ran the victory dance that followed the raiders' return. Some tribal councils decided nothing without our advice. We were called upon to conduct burials. There are certain cures and uses for herbs known only to 'winktes'. The most sacred of our ceremonies, the Sun Dance, could not begin without our selecting and raising the poles to be used. But even more significant it was believed that our power could extend beyond the individual to affect others. The prosperity and even their existence as a people, in some Native American Societies, depended upon their 'winkte'. One of the major aspects which distinguishes 'winkte' in our native culture, is a preference for the work of the other sex. This key trait, in the Native American perspective, was perhaps of the least importance to western society, since whites do not value women's worth anyway. The crossing of these boundaries requires an unusually strong endowment with power . . . and those who allow themselves to see us with their spirit eyes . . . they can see this.

What has Western civilization lost by its apparent lack of a counterpart to 'winkte'- by, indeed, bending every social institution to the task of stigmatizing gender mediation? More than the waste of the individual's potential which suppression entails, there is the loss of the "winkte spirit guide" who serves men and women alike with the insights of the intermediate position. This raises the question whether men and women today can ever achieve mutuality and wholeness, as long as men who manifest qualities considered feminine, and women who do the same in male realms, are seen as deviants to be criminalized and stigmatized. The fear of being associated with this deviant status stands before every man and woman who would seek psychic integration, regardless of their emotional and sexual orientation. It is made all too apparent through the observation that, in societies which make a minimum use of sex as a discriminating factor in prescribing behaviour, as opposed to those that maximize sex distinction, that we see 'winktes' become not only open and prevalent, but even necessary. Western images of men and women are not as flexible as 'oyte ikce' (native people). Violent outbursts of hatred or anger toward 'winkte,' comparable to expressions of western homophobia, have never been recorded in Native American history. However, a biological and not a social definition of gender continues to inform both popular and scientific western thinking. But being male biologically and "acting like a man" are not necessarily the same thing. 'winkte' are not branded as threats to a rigid gender ideology; but rather, we are considered an affirmation of humanity's original pre-gendered unity - we are representatives of a form of solidarity and wholeness which transcends the division of humans into men and women. 'winkte' transformation was not, and is not, a complete shift from his or her biological gender to the opposite one, but rather an approximation of the latter in some of its social, and of course today, its physical aspects, effecting an intermediate status that cuts across the boundaries between gender categories. As long as our perceptions continue to be filtered through a dual gender ideology and arbitrary distinctions based on biological sex are held, 'winkte' patterns cannot be appreciated for what they really are. That is, the appropriate and intrinsic behaviour of a third gender. From a dual gender perspective, 'winkte' can only imitate the behaviour of one or the other of the two "real" genders, an imitation which is invariably found inferior and counterfeit. Those behaviours inappropriate for an individual's biological sex, like cross-dressing, are consequently singled out. But comparisons of male to female 'winkte' to women, invariably reveal more about the speaker's view of women (usually a negative one) than they do about 'winkte'. In light of the "discovery" of the third gender, all such accounts must be re-evaluated. Everyone can take inspiration from a society where individuality and community are not always at odds.

In our work we must remember . . . the most important objective we are called upon to realize with our clients is to make available to them this sense of wholeness and inner solidarity. In fact that very wholeness and solidarity which all humans are seeking. It is only through our understanding that 'winkte' status transcends the boundaries of a gender category that is biologically and not culturally and socially defined, that we attain an intermediate gender status, biologically the same but culturally redefined. In many ways, socially, legally, psychologically and even in this day and age, physiologically, western tradition still ignores the individual motivations of our 'winkte', stressing instead categories and labels for these people in the name of our own convenience.

Such sexual diversity has always been considered one sign of a lower social development. In fact, the response of 19th century Victorian America, like the Spaniards before them, to native sexuality is much the same as we see world wide today and this exposes in everyone of us, a central contradiction in our basic belief system. In fact when seen in the light of traditional Native American values it is impossible to rely entirely on a western analysis without distorting this fantastic phenomenon altogether. This is, with out a doubt the key where 'winkte' itself must be understood if one is to comprehend the reasons individuals adopt it.

With the recognition of the third gender status the problem of the transsexual or the gender-crosser model becomes clear. For example, the man who becomes a woman contributes to society as a woman. But with a deep understanding of the 'winkte' position, new, unique and rare contributions to society become possible. Society can only benefit by recognizing three, instead of two, genders. Such a reorganization of gender geometrically increases options for individual identities and behaviours. The third gender role of 'winkte,' one which has existed openly within the framework of everyday Lakota culture, is one of native North America's most striking social inventions.

At one time, I believed it was a wise person who was able to recognize their own limitations and was then able to operate within those limitations. However I am now convinced that quite the contrary shall be considered as the fact. It rather the wise person who is able to be aware of all of their own possibilities and to then operate at the outer limits of those possibilities. We owe it to our profession, to our clients and to ourselves, to recognize our own possibilities and then in response to that recognition to move ourselves around the "medicine wheel" of life so as to experience those who come to us for help while we ourselves are standing at a different vantage point, my challenge to you today . . . is to simply . . . "think primitive."



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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2007, 02:04:25 am »
David, thank you so much for posting that information. I now feel that I'm in a much better position to understand the winkte concept. You may remember in my first post at the "Introduce Yourself" thread that I mentioned I had studied theology in the past. Even though that study initially took the form of Canon Law, Church History, Carmelite History, Lives of the Saints, etc., what it ultimately led to, for me, was an ongoing interest in theology in a pantheistic sense. You've probably noticed that I am fascinated by the ancient world, particularly Egypt and Greece. This fascination extends to their belief systems. I'm starting to ramble - what I'm trying to say is that I am interested in many belief systems, including the pre-Christian European religion of Wicca. It seems to me that Wicca and Native American spiritual practices probably have a great deal in common.

This quote particularly stood out for me; though, I enjoyed reading your entire post:

The nature of the universe is balance and harmony. So when one is in harmony and in balance they become "attuned" to the fundamental principles that make up the universe. So like a tuning fork, when a person is in balance, they resonate with the balance in the universe which gives them access to spiritual knowledge and understandings that are normally beyond the range of people who are not in balance.

 :)
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2007, 02:15:11 am »
You have a wonderful way with words, David. I was very moved by what you said. And you're right, I had forgotten that a Wink'te does not necessarily have to be of Native American ancestry. I remember seeing "Dances with Wolves" many years ago and enjoyed it very much. I hadn't realised/remembered that it involved the Sioux. I must borrow it and re-watch it. I'll be thinking of you when I do.   :)

Thank You!  :D

Yes, the movie is about the Sioux; more specifically the Lakota Oglala Sioux.

I have always wondered though, how Kevin Costner's character would have reacted to the Sioux' acceptance and elevation of gay people. Here he was, a Union officer, white, straight and probably Christian. I wonder how he would have felt about it? I guarantee you even though it isn't shown in the movie, there probably was a wink'te or two in that tribe. It's interesting to think about, isn't it? Maybe someday, if they ever remake "Dances With Wolves", they will address it.  :D

God, it looks like I hijacked this thread. Sorry about that. I just hope other gay people read this and realize there were cultures in the world who accepted gay people. And in the case of many Native American tribes, not only did they accept us, they elevated us to a near godlike level; falling just short of literal worship. It seems a bit extreme I realize, but true none the less. Personally I would be happy if today's world just accepted us for who we are, and viewed us as worthwhile, functioning and valued citizens worthy of all the respect and dignity afforded to others.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2007, 02:27:34 am »
Personally I would be happy if today's world just accepted us for who we are, and viewed us as worthwhile, functioning and valued citizens worthy of all the respect and dignity afforded to others.

Well expressed. It's been said before and I'll say it again, "We don't want special treatment, we just want equal treatment." And isn't it lovely to find a safe sanctuary like BetterMost, where so much love and understanding abounds.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Gays in Ancient Egypt and Other Civilizations
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2007, 02:32:37 am »
Well expressed. It's been said before and I'll say it again, "We don't want special treatment, we just want equal treatment." And isn't it lovely to find a safe sanctuary like BetterMost, where so much love and understanding abounds.

Yes it is!!  :D

I guess that's why I have over 2400 posts here! haha.  :P

Yeah Kerry. BetterMost is great. I love it.  :)
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