Post-Divorce Scene

[Front-Ranger]

I wanted to make a comment about the post-divorce scene and didn't know where to put it, so here I am.  I think part of Jack's hastiness and foolhardiness about rushing up to present himself to Ennis had to do with the warm reception he had received about 10 years earlier when they reunited after four years apart. Ennis was so "welcoming" to him then that Jack had reason to think that, with Alma out of the picture, Ennis would be overjoyed to see Jack.

And who's to say it wouldn't have been that way if Ennis's girls hadn't been there? Ennis may have been in a hurry to get Jack inside out of public view, but after all it was one of those rural ranch houses. It could have been the start of something different, a real sweet life.

Jack underestimated Ennis's need to be close to his daughters because Jack wasn't close to his own family, stemming from his childhood. But Ennis, having been abandoned by most of his family, needed his daughters, especially after the divorce. And Jack didn't realize that. 

[serious crayons]

And who's to say it wouldn't have been that way if Ennis's girls hadn't been there? Ennis may have been in a hurry to get Jack inside out of public view, but after all it was one of those rural ranch houses. It could have been the start of something different, a real sweet life.

Or at the very least, a real sweet weekend! 

And maybe with time to talk, they could have figured out a plan that would have satisfied, or at least improved things, for both of them.

Good points, Lee, about why Jack expected a different reaction, and about how Jack and Ennis felt differently about their kids.

[dly64]

I wanted to make a comment about the post-divorce scene and didn't know where to put it, so here I am.  I think part of Jack's hastiness and foolhardiness about rushing up to present himself to Ennis had to do with the warm reception he had received about 10 years earlier when they reunited after four years apart. Ennis was so "welcoming" to him then that Jack had reason to think that, with Alma out of the picture, Ennis would be overjoyed to see Jack.

And who's to say it wouldn't have been that way if Ennis's girls hadn't been there? Ennis may have been in a hurry to get Jack inside out of public view, but after all it was one of those rural ranch houses. It could have been the start of something different, a real sweet life.

Jack underestimated Ennis's need to be close to his daughters because Jack wasn't close to his own family, stemming from his childhood. But Ennis, having been abandoned by most of his family, needed his daughters, especially after the divorce. And Jack didn't realize that. 

I have to disagree. IMO, Jack interpreted Ennis’ divorce as a change of heart (i.e. that Ennis changed his mind about them having a life together). Jack learned in a very painful and humiliating way that Ennis’ divorce was not an invitation towards living the “sweet life.” At that moment Jack knew that the life he had longed for (with Ennis) would never happen.

I am one of those jaded people who do not put as much emphasis on Ennis’ daughters as others do. I am not saying he doesn’t love his daughters. He absolutely does! What I am saying is that even if the girls wouldn’t have been there when Jack drove up to Wyoming, Ennis would have found another excuse. It’s not that Ennis didn’t want to see Jack or spend time with him. But, Jack arrived in a place outside of Ennis’ comfort zone. Somewhere in another thread, it was discussed that there were a few things about that visit that amplified Ennis’ already low “startle point.” Jack showed up unannounced, in Ennis’ home town, in front of his daughters and Jack had asked about “fourteen people” where Ennis had moved to. In addition to all of that, a pickup drives by. In Ennis’ mind, the driver is scoping out Jack and Ennis together. YIKES! That was too much for Ennis.   

Note: In all fairness, I have to admit that if Ennis would have decided to live with Jack, the possibility of him maintaining a relationship with his daughters would have been remote. Understandably, that was not an acceptable scenario for Ennis.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I have to disagree. IMO, Jack interpreted Ennis’ divorce as a change of heart (i.e. that Ennis changed his mind about them having a life together). Jack learned in a very painful and humiliating way that Ennis’ divorce was not an invitation towards living the “sweet life.” At that moment Jack knew that the life he had longed for (with Ennis) would never happen.

I am one of those jaded people who do not put as much emphasis on Ennis’ daughters as others do. I am not saying he doesn’t love his daughters. He absolutely does! What I am saying is that even if the girls wouldn’t have been there when Jack drove up to Wyoming, Ennis would have found another excuse. It’s not that Ennis didn’t want to see Jack or spend time with him. But, Jack arrived in a place outside of Ennis’ comfort zone. Somewhere in another thread, it was discussed that there were a few things about that visit that amplified Ennis’ already low “startle point.” Jack showed up unannounced, in Ennis’ home town, in front of his daughters and Jack had asked about “fourteen people” where Ennis had moved to. In addition to all of that, a pickup drives by. In Ennis’ mind, the driver is scoping out Jack and Ennis together. YIKES! That was too much for Ennis.   

[

I think Ennis mainly wrote Jack telling him of his trouble, Jack was the one he could turn to. He didn't think how Jack might react. Sadly Ennis's fearsr were not unfounded and while he did long for the "sweet life" he knew it couldn't happen.

[serious crayons]

What I am saying is that even if the girls wouldn’t have been there when Jack drove up to Wyoming, Ennis would have found another excuse.

Yes. This scene is ambiguous, because to my mind, having his daughters for the weekend is an airtight excuse for not seeing Jack. Yet it's not the only reason he responds the way he does.

However, if Ennis had been alone I do think he would have reacted differently. After all, at first he looked thrilled to see Jack. If they'd been able to discuss it at length, in private, Jack might still have wound up disappointed. But it wouldn't have been as much of a disaster.

[dly64]

However, if Ennis had been alone I do think he would have reacted differently. After all, at first he looked thrilled to see Jack. If they'd been able to discuss it at length, in private, Jack might still have wound up disappointed. But it wouldn't have been as much of a disaster.

True .... but as usual, my mantra is, "I'll never know!" 

[Front-Ranger]

Dly, I felt the same way as U about Ennis just making excuses, until I thought about it some more. But what about the reunion scene? Not only did Ennis expose himself by kissing Jack, but he also took Jack to introduce him to his wife, knowing that his daughters were nearby within earshot and everything! Why was he so open then and so guarded later?? I can only conclude that it is because his daughters are older and nearby.

[nakymaton]

If Ennis had been alone at the post-divorce meeting. Hmmmm.

At the reunion after four f***ing years, Ennis doesn't stop to think about anything. He just acts. (*Mel pauses for a minute to replay the scene in her mind.* Yeah. Acts.  )

And yeah, there were a lot of other things besides Ennis's daughters that activated his low startle point... but Ennis doesn't find out about them until Jack starts talking.

So would Ennis's immediate response have been to kiss Jack, if the girls hadn't been there?

Hmmm. I think the reunion was pretty unusual for Ennis. It was a release after four f***ing years of loneliness and confusion and not knowing what had happened to Jack after that summer. And Ennis had time to anticipate the reunion, the whole time between when he got that postcard and when Jack showed up. We got to see Ennis waiting that whole day, flicking his lighter and drinking beers and waiting and listening and waiting some more. And presumably Ennis was thinking about the reunion long before that day arrived.

But would Ennis react like that again? I think Ennis was scared by the intensity of the reunion, by his own lack of control. For Jack, that reunion kiss seems to have been a dream come true, but for Ennis... it's a warning  that they can't be in public together. I'm not sure Ennis would have allowed himself to lose control again.

But I think that, yes, Jack expected Ennis to greet him by slamming him against a wall and kissing him until he saw stars.

Poor Jack. Poor Ennis.

[dly64]

Dly, I felt the same way as U about Ennis just making excuses, until I thought about it some more. But what about the reunion scene? Not only did Ennis expose himself by kissing Jack, but he also took Jack to introduce him to his wife, knowing that his daughters were nearby within earshot and everything! Why was he so open then and so guarded later?? I can only conclude that it is because his daughters are older and nearby.

I look at the reunion scene in a couple of different ways. First, there was a four year hiatus. I think they were both a bit surprised by the intensity of their feelings for each other. All of those years rolled up with anticipation and passion …. Ennis certainly was not as cautious as he became later. Second, it wasn’t until Jack and Ennis went up to the mountains where Ennis set some ground rules. Jack mentions for the first time that he and Ennis could have a life together. Immediately Ennis put on the breaks. “We can get together once and awhile way the hell in the middle of nowhere ….” The whole divorce scene illustrates Ennis’ paranoia when he is with Jack in a more public setting versus out in the boonies somewhere. Lastly, it’s not that Ennis and Jack’s reunion was a surprise to Alma. In other words, Alma knew Ennis had a “friend” coming up to see him. It would have seemed odd for Ennis not to introduce Jack. (But of course, Jack became a surprise when she realized her husband was in love with somebody else and it happened to be Jack).

[serious crayons]

But would Ennis react like that again? I think Ennis was scared by the intensity of the reunion, by his own lack of control. For Jack, that reunion kiss seems to have been a dream come true, but for Ennis... it's a warning  that they can't be in public together. I'm not sure Ennis would have allowed himself to lose control again.

"If this thing grabs hold of us at the wrong place, wrong time -- we're dead."

But I think that, yes, Jack expected Ennis to greet him by slamming him against a wall and kissing him until he saw stars.

Now that would have been a great scene. From an artistic viewpoint, of course.