Author Topic: Post-Divorce Scene  (Read 13236 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Post-Divorce Scene
« on: August 16, 2006, 01:20:49 pm »
I wanted to make a comment about the post-divorce scene and didn't know where to put it, so here I am.  ::) I think part of Jack's hastiness and foolhardiness about rushing up to present himself to Ennis had to do with the warm reception he had received about 10 years earlier when they reunited after four years apart. Ennis was so "welcoming" to him then that Jack had reason to think that, with Alma out of the picture, Ennis would be overjoyed to see Jack.

And who's to say it wouldn't have been that way if Ennis's girls hadn't been there? Ennis may have been in a hurry to get Jack inside out of public view, but after all it was one of those rural ranch houses. It could have been the start of something different, a real sweet life.

Jack underestimated Ennis's need to be close to his daughters because Jack wasn't close to his own family, stemming from his childhood. But Ennis, having been abandoned by most of his family, needed his daughters, especially after the divorce. And Jack didn't realize that.  :(
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Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2006, 01:27:15 pm »
And who's to say it wouldn't have been that way if Ennis's girls hadn't been there? Ennis may have been in a hurry to get Jack inside out of public view, but after all it was one of those rural ranch houses. It could have been the start of something different, a real sweet life.

Or at the very least, a real sweet weekend!  :-*

And maybe with time to talk, they could have figured out a plan that would have satisfied, or at least improved things, for both of them.

Good points, Lee, about why Jack expected a different reaction, and about how Jack and Ennis felt differently about their kids.


Offline dly64

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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2006, 01:59:36 pm »
I wanted to make a comment about the post-divorce scene and didn't know where to put it, so here I am.  ::) I think part of Jack's hastiness and foolhardiness about rushing up to present himself to Ennis had to do with the warm reception he had received about 10 years earlier when they reunited after four years apart. Ennis was so "welcoming" to him then that Jack had reason to think that, with Alma out of the picture, Ennis would be overjoyed to see Jack.

And who's to say it wouldn't have been that way if Ennis's girls hadn't been there? Ennis may have been in a hurry to get Jack inside out of public view, but after all it was one of those rural ranch houses. It could have been the start of something different, a real sweet life.

Jack underestimated Ennis's need to be close to his daughters because Jack wasn't close to his own family, stemming from his childhood. But Ennis, having been abandoned by most of his family, needed his daughters, especially after the divorce. And Jack didn't realize that.  :(

I have to disagree. IMO, Jack interpreted Ennis’ divorce as a change of heart (i.e. that Ennis changed his mind about them having a life together). Jack learned in a very painful and humiliating way that Ennis’ divorce was not an invitation towards living the “sweet life.” At that moment Jack knew that the life he had longed for (with Ennis) would never happen.

I am one of those jaded people who do not put as much emphasis on Ennis’ daughters as others do. I am not saying he doesn’t love his daughters. He absolutely does! What I am saying is that even if the girls wouldn’t have been there when Jack drove up to Wyoming, Ennis would have found another excuse. It’s not that Ennis didn’t want to see Jack or spend time with him. But, Jack arrived in a place outside of Ennis’ comfort zone. Somewhere in another thread, it was discussed that there were a few things about that visit that amplified Ennis’ already low “startle point.” Jack showed up unannounced, in Ennis’ home town, in front of his daughters and Jack had asked about “fourteen people” where Ennis had moved to. In addition to all of that, a pickup drives by. In Ennis’ mind, the driver is scoping out Jack and Ennis together. YIKES! That was too much for Ennis.   

Note: In all fairness, I have to admit that if Ennis would have decided to live with Jack, the possibility of him maintaining a relationship with his daughters would have been remote. Understandably, that was not an acceptable scenario for Ennis.
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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2006, 02:05:10 pm »
I have to disagree. IMO, Jack interpreted Ennis’ divorce as a change of heart (i.e. that Ennis changed his mind about them having a life together). Jack learned in a very painful and humiliating way that Ennis’ divorce was not an invitation towards living the “sweet life.” At that moment Jack knew that the life he had longed for (with Ennis) would never happen.

I am one of those jaded people who do not put as much emphasis on Ennis’ daughters as others do. I am not saying he doesn’t love his daughters. He absolutely does! What I am saying is that even if the girls wouldn’t have been there when Jack drove up to Wyoming, Ennis would have found another excuse. It’s not that Ennis didn’t want to see Jack or spend time with him. But, Jack arrived in a place outside of Ennis’ comfort zone. Somewhere in another thread, it was discussed that there were a few things about that visit that amplified Ennis’ already low “startle point.” Jack showed up unannounced, in Ennis’ home town, in front of his daughters and Jack had asked about “fourteen people” where Ennis had moved to. In addition to all of that, a pickup drives by. In Ennis’ mind, the driver is scoping out Jack and Ennis together. YIKES! That was too much for Ennis.   

[
I think Ennis mainly wrote Jack telling him of his trouble, Jack was the one he could turn to. He didn't think how Jack might react. Sadly Ennis's fearsr were not unfounded and while he did long for the "sweet life" he knew it couldn't happen.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2006, 02:05:46 pm »
What I am saying is that even if the girls wouldn’t have been there when Jack drove up to Wyoming, Ennis would have found another excuse.

Yes. This scene is ambiguous, because to my mind, having his daughters for the weekend is an airtight excuse for not seeing Jack. Yet it's not the only reason he responds the way he does.

However, if Ennis had been alone I do think he would have reacted differently. After all, at first he looked thrilled to see Jack. If they'd been able to discuss it at length, in private, Jack might still have wound up disappointed. But it wouldn't have been as much of a disaster.

Offline dly64

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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2006, 02:09:16 pm »
However, if Ennis had been alone I do think he would have reacted differently. After all, at first he looked thrilled to see Jack. If they'd been able to discuss it at length, in private, Jack might still have wound up disappointed. But it wouldn't have been as much of a disaster.

True .... but as usual, my mantra is, "I'll never know!"  :'(
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Offline Front-Ranger

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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2006, 02:10:21 pm »
Dly, I felt the same way as U about Ennis just making excuses, until I thought about it some more. But what about the reunion scene? Not only did Ennis expose himself by kissing Jack, but he also took Jack to introduce him to his wife, knowing that his daughters were nearby within earshot and everything! Why was he so open then and so guarded later?? I can only conclude that it is because his daughters are older and nearby.
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Offline nakymaton

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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2006, 02:24:46 pm »
If Ennis had been alone at the post-divorce meeting. Hmmmm.

At the reunion after four f***ing years, Ennis doesn't stop to think about anything. He just acts. (*Mel pauses for a minute to replay the scene in her mind.* ;D Yeah. Acts.  :-* :-* :-*)

And yeah, there were a lot of other things besides Ennis's daughters that activated his low startle point... but Ennis doesn't find out about them until Jack starts talking.

So would Ennis's immediate response have been to kiss Jack, if the girls hadn't been there?

Hmmm. I think the reunion was pretty unusual for Ennis. It was a release after four f***ing years of loneliness and confusion and not knowing what had happened to Jack after that summer. And Ennis had time to anticipate the reunion, the whole time between when he got that postcard and when Jack showed up. We got to see Ennis waiting that whole day, flicking his lighter and drinking beers and waiting and listening and waiting some more. And presumably Ennis was thinking about the reunion long before that day arrived.

But would Ennis react like that again? I think Ennis was scared by the intensity of the reunion, by his own lack of control. For Jack, that reunion kiss seems to have been a dream come true, but for Ennis... it's a warning  that they can't be in public together. I'm not sure Ennis would have allowed himself to lose control again.

But I think that, yes, Jack expected Ennis to greet him by slamming him against a wall and kissing him until he saw stars.

Poor Jack. Poor Ennis.
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Offline dly64

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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2006, 02:36:48 pm »
Dly, I felt the same way as U about Ennis just making excuses, until I thought about it some more. But what about the reunion scene? Not only did Ennis expose himself by kissing Jack, but he also took Jack to introduce him to his wife, knowing that his daughters were nearby within earshot and everything! Why was he so open then and so guarded later?? I can only conclude that it is because his daughters are older and nearby.

I look at the reunion scene in a couple of different ways. First, there was a four year hiatus. I think they were both a bit surprised by the intensity of their feelings for each other. All of those years rolled up with anticipation and passion …. Ennis certainly was not as cautious as he became later. Second, it wasn’t until Jack and Ennis went up to the mountains where Ennis set some ground rules. Jack mentions for the first time that he and Ennis could have a life together. Immediately Ennis put on the breaks. “We can get together once and awhile way the hell in the middle of nowhere ….” The whole divorce scene illustrates Ennis’ paranoia when he is with Jack in a more public setting versus out in the boonies somewhere. Lastly, it’s not that Ennis and Jack’s reunion was a surprise to Alma. In other words, Alma knew Ennis had a “friend” coming up to see him. It would have seemed odd for Ennis not to introduce Jack. (But of course, Jack became a surprise when she realized her husband was in love with somebody else and it happened to be Jack).
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Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2006, 02:37:44 pm »
But would Ennis react like that again? I think Ennis was scared by the intensity of the reunion, by his own lack of control. For Jack, that reunion kiss seems to have been a dream come true, but for Ennis... it's a warning  that they can't be in public together. I'm not sure Ennis would have allowed himself to lose control again.

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Quote
But I think that, yes, Jack expected Ennis to greet him by slamming him against a wall and kissing him until he saw stars.

Now that would have been a great scene. From an artistic viewpoint, of course.  ;)

Offline dly64

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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2006, 02:40:21 pm »
Hmmm. I think the reunion was pretty unusual for Ennis. It was a release after four f***ing years of loneliness and confusion and not knowing what had happened to Jack after that summer. And Ennis had time to anticipate the reunion, the whole time between when he got that postcard and when Jack showed up. We got to see Ennis waiting that whole day, flicking his lighter and drinking beers and waiting and listening and waiting some more. And presumably Ennis was thinking about the reunion long before that day arrived.

But would Ennis react like that again? I think Ennis was scared by the intensity of the reunion, by his own lack of control. For Jack, that reunion kiss seems to have been a dream come true, but for Ennis... it's a warning  that they can't be in public together. I'm not sure Ennis would have allowed himself to lose control again.

Mel - you posted this at about the same time I posted my note. I think we are on the same wave length.
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Offline nakymaton

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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2006, 02:42:54 pm »
"If this thing grabs hold of us at the wrong place, wrong time -- we're dead."

Yep. Exactly.

Quote
Now that would have been a great scene. From an artistic viewpoint, of course.  ;)

Purely artistic. Of course. *hums. looks innocent.*

Diane: yep. Definitely thinking along the same lines. :)
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Offline Mikaela

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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2006, 03:44:29 pm »
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Jack expected Ennis to greet him by slamming him against a wall and kissing him until he saw stars.

 :-* What can I say? I'd love that kind of expressive artistic vision. The fact that we didn't get it is another reason to mourn Ennis's and Jack's cross-purposes in the post-divorce scene.


I've been following this renewed Post-divorce scene discussion with interest and I have a few add-on questions that I'd be happy to hear some opinions on.

One is, I've always thought that once Jack starts talking in that scene, Ennis is or rapidly becomes entirely aware that Jack has not come up there for a weekend, or for a week - but that he's in fact come up to *stay* or at least to immediately make arrangements for the "sweet life". I beleive Ennis understands that Jack thinks Ennis has changed his mind about them having a life together" following the divorce. However much he only talks of the girls and his inavailability that one particular weekend in shooting Jack's airplane down out of the sky this particular time.

Is that how everyone sees it?


Then some time ago I had a discusion with Ruthlessly in the "Alma and her box  of crayons" thread, concerning exactly why Jack would think Ennis had changed his mind and why he'd be so elated when he arrived - ready for the sweet life to finally start. I was hoping for a discussion to develop at the time, but other events occluded the discussion on that and other threads......... :-\  So I'm hoping perhaps for some comments now.

Now what I was pondering, and still am wondering, is *why* exactly Jack would think Ennis had had a change of heart - why he'd arrive in such a state of high hopes like never before? He must already have known the divorce was in the works, so that can't have come as a complete surprise - and more importantly he (IMO) largely if not completely understood the significance of the Earl story in Ennis's life and so would be aware that a major impediment to Ennis agreeing to live with him still excisted.

Ruthlessly argued that Jack fullly believed that the marriage was the main impediment to him and Ennis staying together, and that he didn't grasp the significance of Ennis's fear of being outed until that white truck passed by.

Instead of trying to repeat everything posted back then in my own words, I'll link to the posts:

My initial post on the subject: here

and Ruthlessly's reply: here

I'd be very interested to hear what others think.  :)


Offline nakymaton

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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2006, 05:40:30 pm »
I think the problem that you and Ruthlessly were struggling with, Mikaela, comes from the change from the short story to the movie. (This movie is really exceptional in that its translation to the screen left few holes in the logic, and may, in the minds of many (*hi Katherine*) have resolved problems in the story.)

So in the story, Ennis actually calls Jack, on the telephone, to tell about the divorce. And that's just huge. That kind of change in Ennis's typical behavior could very logically explain why Jack would think everything had changed.

But the movie changed that phone call to a postcard. And yeah, that moves the communication into the realm of typical Ennis behavior. And yeah, it does suggest that Jack really didn't understand Ennis very well. Which conflicts with my impression of the characters elsewhere in the movie. (Though I guess Jack misjudges Ennis's reaction to being told that the summer is ending early, there on the mountain, so maybe I'm badly overestimating Jack.)

Edit: I kind of like the idea that, somehow, Ennis let a bit of his loneliness out onto that postcard. I don't know what he could or would have said, though. It might not have taken much to have gotten Jack's hopes up.

Edit again... But I really, really like the idea of Ennis calling Jack, just that one time, and both of them being so thrilled at hearing each other's voice that a little of the energy of the reunion scene infused the call. (The emotional energy, of course. ;) ;D) Though... well, I'm projecting. I've never been much of one to use the phone myself, but those few phone conversations I had with the other half of a long-distance relationship... yeah, I would have driven 1200 miles with no other invitation after them.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 05:56:06 pm by nakymaton »
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Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2006, 06:06:39 pm »
I see that I didn't contribute anything substantial to that discussion, but I remember disagreeing with Ruthlessly about this somewhere, too. Even if Jack took the Earl story at absolute face value -- Ennis saw a guy get tortured to death for living with a man, so he must be scared to do it himself -- you'd think that would be enough for Jack to realize that marriage wasn't the only obstacle to overcome with Ennis. And when you give it any deeper thought, you realize that's probably just the tip of the iceberg: Ennis was raised by a dad capable of torturing a guy to death for living with a man, so he's probably got a pretty messed up view of his own sexuality.

Now, Jack hasn't seen as many Oprah episodes as I have (figuratively speaking). But he's probably spent more time thinking about Ennis than I have (is that possible? Yes, though only because Jack's been doing it for years and for me it's only been since January). So you'd think it would have dawned on him that divorce isn't the only thing Ennis has to deal with.

Mel has a good point; in the story, with a phone call, it makes no sense at all. After all, Jack would have reacted to the news in some way on the phone, and Ennis would have reacted in some way on the phone -- somehow there'd be enough communication between them to prevent the whole debacle. (To give Annie a break, this is such a throwaway line in the story that she may not have thought all the implications completely through, whereas in the movie it's much more fleshed out so they had to imagine how a phone call would work and realize it wouldn't.)

Nor can I really picture Ennis writing a postcard with no information on it but that, which would have made it seem more significant. So I think it was more like, "Fish should be jumping next month. Alma and me got divorced." Ennis thought he was just adding a bit of newsy info, Jack maybe thought it was code for, "Yay! I'm free!" The fact that it's in a postcard might make Jack think Ennis was deliberately being low-key and discrete.

Offline nakymaton

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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2006, 06:19:00 pm »
Mel has a good point; in the story, with a phone call, it makes no sense at all. After all, Jack would have reacted to the news in some way on the phone, and Ennis would have reacted in some way on the phone -- somehow there'd be enough communication between them to prevent the whole debacle.

Actually, I thought it made more sense in the story. But you're right; presumably both men would have reacted in some way. (Though, I wonder... if they hadn't ever spoken on the phone to one another, would their excitement in hearing each other's voices have gotten in the way of the actual information being communicated?)

I figured that the reason that the phone call was changed to a postcard in the movie was to make the phone call between Ennis and Lureen more powerful. In the story, we don't learn about the post-divorce call except as a side comment around the (much more important and emotionally powerful) call after Jack's death. The movie had to keep the emotional power while showing most events in real time. (And it did an amazing job, too, with things like the punch and the post-divorce meeting.)

(And throw-away line?? Girl, those are fighting words... ;D Sorry. That line in the story absolutely devastated me and literally kept me awake at night for a week. Seriously.)
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Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2006, 06:28:05 pm »
(And throw-away line?? Girl, those are fighting words... ;D Sorry. That line in the story absolutely devastated me and literally kept me awake at night for a week. Seriously.)

You're right. Sorry. I should have said "mentioned in passing" or "seemingly offhand" something like that. Of course, nothing in the story is really throwaway or offhand. Tell me, though, why did that particular line devastate you for a week? You mean because you were haunted by the image of Jack driving all that way, full of hope, for nothing?

And I know this sounds like a book-club question, but: What do you suppose Annie's reasoning was, from a storytelling perspective, for mentioning things like the phone call and the punch in such a SEEMINGLY offhand way, long after their actual occurence?


Offline Rutella

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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2006, 07:25:15 pm »
The divorce scene pains me so much sometimes I have to watch it through my hands. And the line in the story (which I read after seeing the film) killed me too and it is one of the lines that after I read it I have to stop for a bit and recover before moving on.

I think in the story the mention of the phone call is painful because it comes in the middle of a really traumatic bit so it hits you again and again in the stomach with all the stuff you are suddenly seeing. And maybe its a bit how as people have mentioned that during the film there's often a feeling that you, the viewer, is spying on the boys, and in the story the reader is made aware only at the end that other stuff has gone on between the boys that hasn't been mentioned.

And just as you watch the film again and again to get all the stuff that you don't realise the first few times, so when you re-read the story that line which is almost lost in amongst all the angst of Ennis calling Lureen glares at you.

I'm quite tired so I'm not sure if any of this is making sense but I know what I mean. And now I feel so depressed I'm going to have to read some happy ending fanfic before I go to sleep......   

Offline dly64

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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2006, 09:52:37 pm »
Gosh, guys. Don’t get me going on what I consider to be the most gut-wrenching scene … the post-divorce. This scene has always been the hardest for me to watch … and it hasn’t gotten any easier after numerous viewings.

I have always thought (maybe simplistically) that Jack thought Ennis had opened himself up to having a life with Jack by getting the divorce. That’s a bit wordy. But to break it down …. when Jack and Ennis reunite, one of the roadblocks Ennis puts up his is “life in Riverton.” Obviously, Ennis exposes the real reason why he won’t have a life with Jack … the fear of retribution. But now we are twelve years down the road. Ennis is finally free from his marriage. Maybe Jack sees Ennis as taking steps to extricate himself from a dreadful and lonely existence … the divorce symbolizing a new beginning. Needless to say, Jack finds out in an extremely painful way that nothing has changed. Everything is status quo. And it is then when Jack’s dream dies.
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Offline Wayne

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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2006, 10:10:49 pm »
I've somehow gotten the impression that Aguirre knows Jack's mother. I just think he speaks relatively respectfully there - as if he knows who Jack's ma *is*, and feels especially obliged to do her a service and convey a message himself after having talked with her. It's not entirely impossible that they knew each other once upon a time, is it?  As we later learn, Jack's mother *is* a woman who inspires respect and kindness even in quite gruff guys (unless they're her hubby). Aguirre knowing Mrs. Twist from before might be one reason why Jack was hired on the first year. Might even be the reason why Aguirre holds back from letting Ennis and Jack have it after he discovers them in flagranti.
OMG!!! Aguirre is Jack's faaather!  :o

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Offline dly64

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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2006, 10:55:55 pm »
OMG!!! Aguirre is Jack's faaather!  :o



LOL! That would be a scary thought!  :laugh:
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Offline Mikaela

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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2006, 03:10:01 am »
Quote
OMG!!! Aguirre is Jack's faaather!

LOL! The poor doggie.  :D

Don't know that Jack would have been much worse off than with the father he actually *did* have - Mr. Twist Sr. was  never no holiday to be around. But I didn't try to imply that, of course - just that Aguirre and Mrs. Twist might possibly have known each other. Jack's mom might just inspire respect in the most unlikely people.



Thanks for replying to my question(s). If I'm to boil it down seems most of us think the scene doesn't entirely make it clear exactly *why* Jack would be so elated and certain that Enis'd come around based on a postcard announcing an anticipated event; - and that Jack would have understood if not all, then quite a lot of the impact on Ennis's psyche of the Earl story and the pressure of living with Ennis's kind of father........ And after all, he'd had many years to think about it and observe Ennis. Even if they never talked about it again...

Jack must have felt certain Ennis would come around in the end, if he (Jack) just kept calming him and comforting him and giving him time and space and all the love and closeness Ennis would manage to allow. I think you're absolutely spot-on in this analysis, Diane: (Not simplistical at all, just very very clarifying!  :)  )

Quote
I have always thought (maybe simplistically) that Jack thought Ennis had opened himself up to having a life with Jack by getting the divorce. [  ]when Jack and Ennis reunite, one of the roadblocks Ennis puts up his is “life in Riverton.” Obviously, Ennis exposes the real reason why he won’t have a life with Jack … the fear of retribution. But now we are twelve years down the road. Ennis is finally free from his marriage. Maybe Jack sees Ennis as taking steps to extricate himself from a dreadful and lonely existence … the divorce symbolizing a new beginning.

Yeah, that scene hurts. Does it ever.





 :'(
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 03:30:35 am by Mikaela »

Offline dly64

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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2006, 09:27:03 am »
Jack must have felt certain Ennis would come around in the end, if he (Jack) just kept calming him and comforting him and giving him time and space and all the love and closeness Ennis would manage to allow. I think you're absolutely spot-on in this analysis, Diane: (Not simplistical at all, just very very clarifying!  :)  )

I’m glad you think my explanation was helpful. Sometimes I re-read what I had written and think …. “does that really make sense?” Anyway, as Katherine says, I am a “Jackophile” I tend to think that I can understand his POV since there are many parallels with his life and mine.
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Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2006, 09:46:16 am »
And another thing I just thought of. They always meet way out in the middle of nowhere, so whenever Jack sees him, Ennis is happy and relaxed and overjoyed to be with Jack. Jack hasn't seen Ennis in a public setting in years, so maybe he's had a chance to forget that Ennis has other worries and can be quite paranoid.

In fact, the last time they were together in public Ennis wasn't very paranoid -- he kissed Jack in the parking lot, introduced him to Alma, checked into a motel, drove off in a truck, ate in a restaurant. Quite a difference from feeling anxious about being seen talking in the driveway.

Offline dly64

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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2006, 09:47:48 am »
And another thing I just thought of. They always meet way out in the middle of nowhere, so whenever Jack sees him, Ennis is happy and relaxed and overjoyed to be with Jack. Jack hasn't seen Ennis in a public setting in years, so maybe he's had a chance to forget that Ennis has other worries and can be quite paranoid.

In fact, the last time they were together in public Ennis wasn't very paranoid -- he kissed Jack in the parking lot, introduced him to Alma, checked into a motel, drove off in a truck, ate in a restaurant. Quite a difference from feeling anxious about being seen talking in the driveway.

Great point! Add it to my ever growing list of things I had not considered before!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2007, 08:17:12 pm »
bump

Hey, Lynne, thanks for bumping this thread. I gotta come back to it when I have a little more time. I think I ignored it first time around, and clearly a lot more happened on it than talk about zany Uncle Harold.

Considering some of the posts from Katherine and Mel that I just scanned through, this might be a place to discuss the peculiar reaction I had when I watched the post-divorce scene last time.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2007, 11:58:52 pm »
OK. (Jeff takes a deep breath.)

Last time I watched the movie, about a week and a half ago, I had a very weird reaction to the post-divorce scene.

Let me first say that I still remember my reaction to this scene the first time I saw the film in the theater. My reaction wasn't so much to what was happening on the screen to Ennis and Jack. I was very familiar with the story, and I knew immediately that the entire scene had been concocted from one sentence in Annie Proulx:

"He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."

And I remember thinking what a brilliant piece of screenwriting that was for Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana to concoct such a gut-wrenching scene out of one little sentence.

Anyway. ...

I know the Standard Received interpretation of what happens in this scene. To what we see on the screen, we have the backing of the stage directions (if that's the right term for it) in the screenplay in Story to Screenplay:

"ENNIS realizes now what has happened: JACK thinks, mistakenly, that ENNIS has come around, that this is their chance, finally, to be together."

Then:

"JACK looks at ENNIS ... and the smile leaves his face, too. Realizes now that he's made a terrible mistake: turns pale ... his body sags under the weight of disappointment. Humiliated, then devastated."

So what happened when I watched the scene?

Without intending it to happen, I found myself watching the scene as if I knew nothing but what I was seeing on the screen. Nothing about the screenplay, nothing about Annie Proulx, just what I was seeing Heath and Jake do on screen--mostly what I was seeing Jake do.

I saw Jack lookin' all perky as he drove up to Wyoming. I saw him get out of the pickup at Ennis's line cabin, all bright-eyed and breathless and repeating himself about getting the postcard. I watched all the famous, lubricious Gyllenhaal lip-licking and tongue action that goes on, and I think, maybe for the first time, I really absorbed Jack's little head-cock--as if to indicate heading off to the mountains.

And I shocked myself by finding myself thinking, "You horny bastard, you're not there to plan a life together, you're just there because you think Ennis's postcard is an invitation to come and get laid!"

That's coarse, I know, and I swear to God I have no idea where that reaction came from, after a year of living intently with this film, these characters. But there it was.  :-\

I am sure not out to defend the indefensible, but after the heretical thought about why Jack was there presented itself, I have to admit that Ennis's response, essentially, "I can't go off to the mountains with you, I got my daughters this weekend," seemed more to the point.

And Jack's ultimate response, to go off and, I've always assumed, get fucked in an alley in Juarez (whether or not he paid for it, I don't know), seemed somehow less opprobrious. It even made a kind of perverted sense: You need it (because you can't make it on a couple of high-altitude fucks once or twice a year), you can't get it from Ennis for another month (remember: "See you next month, then"), so you go get it where you can get it.

And, yeah, I'd have been bawling in that pickup, too, as I drove away from Ennis's, if I'd made a fool out of myself as Jack just had. What on earth did he tell Lureen when he left Childress? And what on earth was he going to tell her when he slunk back home with his tail between his legs?

It was weird, I tell you, weird.  :-\

Thanks, I really needeg to vent that!  :P
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2007, 12:44:57 am »
Jeff,
I don't think your interpretation here is off at all and I don't even think that it contradicts the perhaps more typical Brokie inclination (which is usually to see this scene in a more serious, tragic way... missing the opportunity for a life together, etc.).  I think you're absolutely right that Jack is there hoping for sex with Ennis, of course he is.  I think Jake tries very hard to convey this through subtle facial expressions, gesture, the lip-licking (all as you mention).  And, you're right, Jack's spontaneous decision to go to Mexico is further indication that he'd been hoping for sex with Ennis [a graphic illustration of his frustration].  I think this whole scene is meant to be an illustration for the film audience of Jack's later statement that Ennis had "no idea how bad it gets."


But I don't think this contradicts the idea that Jack absolutely thought that this time the camping trip/ sex with Ennis would actually lead to something.  It would be the beginning of living together... or the sex this time would be a celebration of beginning a new phase in their relationship signaled by Ennis's divorce.  In this scene I think Jack fully expects both the immediate sex and the long-term life together.

I've said it before, and I still think it's valid.  Ennis is very lucky here that Jack didn't hop out of the truck and announce that he too had just filed for divorce.  I feel like Jack was that gleeful and not thinking clearly upon receiving Ennis's news.  And, Jack's surprise trip to see Ennis was probably not the wisest way of dealing with Ennis (something he'd probably normally understand... but under less-excited circumstances).

But!  I think Ennis responds here and seems to indicate (in even more-subtle fashion... typical of Ennis) that he understand this strong urge for sex right now (the kind of urge that could lead someone to drive 14 hours for a surprise visit).  I think Ennis does this when he says that he's sorry and then says "you know I am" and gives Jack a sort of meaningfully intense look.  He understands at least that immediate desire on Jack's part (even if he's not on-board the idea of living together at this stage), but he's paralyzed due to the fact that he has to have this conversation in front of his daughters.  If the daughters weren't there, of course they would have hooked up at the very least (at least that's my sense of it).  I think this is why it's so odd to some viewers that Jack leaves so abruptly and didn't wait around for a few days until Ennis's visit with the girls was over.  At the same time, I think Jack's motivation to leave quickly (hurt at the rejection, a kind of humiliation, realization that Ennis hadn't made the radical decision he'd hoped for) are pretty easy to understand too.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 12:59:37 am by atz75 »
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2007, 10:12:07 am »
Thanks, Amanda.

After making a clean breast of it like I did, I was afraid I'd get shot by ... somebody, one.  ;D

I'm glad you mentioned that Ennis and Jack have their conversation in the presence of Ennis's daughters; I think that's useful to remember. Another thing I felt when I watched the scene the last time was that the girls barely "registered" with Jack when Ennis introduced them.

I'd like to mention, too, that as I scrolled through this thread, after it turned away from zany Uncle Harold, somebody said something about the laconic nature of Ennis's postcard writing leading Jack to anticipate more from Ennis's divorce than actually happened, and somebody--I think it was Katherine?--saying this scene is more plausible by having Ennis just send a postcard than by telephoning, as he does in the story. Both I think are very good points!
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Marge_Innavera

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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2007, 01:19:37 pm »
But I don't think this contradicts the idea that Jack absolutely thought that this time the camping trip/ sex with Ennis would actually lead to something.  It would be the beginning of living together... or the sex this time would be a celebration of beginning a new phase in their relationship signaled by Ennis's divorce.  In this scene I think Jack fully expects both the immediate sex and the long-term life together.

At the beginning, I don't think Jack is all that unhappy with the arrangement. In the film he says "once in awhile? Every four f**king years?" in an impatient tone; but it obviously turns out to be once or twice a year. And Jack might be hoping for more than that all along, but at this point, Ennis and Jack are still only 23 or 24. When you're in your 20s, especially early 20s, the notion of meeting a secret lover "out in the middle of nowhere" for trysts has considerable romantic appeal. But skip forward to 1975, and now you've got two men in their early 30s who both have kids.  That would be the logical point where Jack would start asking himself "is this all there is?" to the relationship - and after getting the postcard, he thinks that after this, it won't be.

Offline Brown Eyes

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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2007, 10:57:52 pm »
Heya Jeff and Marge,

This is a really interesting discussion.  This scene is a major "tipping point" in Jack's perception of the relationship I think.  I think his immediate and continual urge for a physical relationship with Ennis is almost a given and a major driving factor behind the relationship lasting as long as it did (the physical chemistry between both of them... is something I think the filmmakers want the audience to see as a huge aspect of their relationship).  I think this physical need is one reason that Jack actually comes back after this rejection (and his parting phrase of "see you next month then").  The need for the sexual contact runs through all of this (and may seems sort of frivolous, but really is a truly important thing on a serious level).  But, Marge, you're absolutely right that I think this is the time that Jack really does begin to question what's behind the sex.  Is there more to their connection than brief encounters?  What is Ennis willing to do for him? He may not forumulate the question exactly, but he's probably sort of wondering if the sex is tied to love or if it's just sex.  I'm sure when he drives away crying these are the major things he's worrying about.  He was rebuffed once in the "prayer of thanks" camping trip after his somewhat premature offer of the cow and calf operation idea.  But, he was willing to give Ennis's plan a try.  This second and pretty harsh rejection probably carries more of a sting because of the amount of time that's already been committed and because he realizes that it wasn't just Ennis's marriage that was holding Ennis back.  That excuse/ obstacle is now gone and Ennis is still unable to make a move towards something more permanent with Jack (probably the point of the white truck... that one white truck is enough for Jack to see just how scared Ennis still is of the opinions of passers-by).

I'm discussing this in a lopsided, Jack-centric way at the moment.  I realize this.  Trying to see this whole scene and scenario from Ennis's point of view and with his very specific concerns and fears in mind is a tricky business.  Espeically when all of those concerns and fears are weighted with the depth of feeling that we know Ennis feels for Jack.  The question of guilt and I think Heath's attempt to physically portray Ennis's conflict and sense of guilt here is equally interesting.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2007, 10:36:31 am »
The need for the sexual contact runs through all of this (and may seems sort of frivolous, but really is a truly important thing on a serious level).

Yes, it is important with respect to these guys. Annie tells us that, years on years, the heat and brilliance of their sexual couplings never diminish. (The cynic in me adds, "Sure, because they only did it a couple of times a year.")

Tell you what, when I look back over all I wrote two nights ago, I'm not happy. I spilled a lot of electronic ink and yet I don't think I really conveyed what upset me, that if I didn't know what was "really going on" in the post-divorce visit, it would be possible to see all this as far less significant than it really is.  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline BBM-Cat

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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2007, 06:47:10 pm »
Yes, it is important with respect to these guys. Annie tells us that, years on years, the heat and brilliance of their sexual couplings never diminish. (The cynic in me adds, "Sure, because they only did it a couple of times a year.")

Tell you what, when I look back over all I wrote two nights ago, I'm not happy. I spilled a lot of electronic ink and yet I don't think I really conveyed what upset me, that if I didn't know what was "really going on" in the post-divorce visit, it would be possible to see all this as far less significant than it really is.  :-\

I don't want to overfocus on this one idea in such a vastly important topic, but it is actually that very thought that has been bothering me for awhile, and maybe it has been addressed elsewhere - but yeah, Jack & Ennis spent only a few times together each year - they were in a chronic honeymoon phase. I believe somewhat in the "ages and stages" theories of human development which have also been aptly applied to human relationships. Following this line of thought, Jack and Ennis did not ever have the opportunity to 'nest' or to really 'blend' their lives together. The real irony is that while they tried to keep their married lives separate from their affair (I'm using that term loosely here) , in the end it just could not be done - everything about their lives impinged on the other's.

So was their relationship only all about sex? No, certainly not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that ultimately though, their relationship could not be sustained at the "honeymoon level", yet it could neither grow in more integrated directions.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2007, 07:02:18 pm »
I don't want to overfocus on this one idea in such a vastly important topic, but it is actually that very thought that has been bothering me for awhile, and maybe it has been addressed elsewhere - but yeah, Jack & Ennis spent only a few times together each year - they were in a chronic honeymoon phase. I believe somewhat in the "ages and stages" theories of human development which have also been aptly applied to human relationships. Following this line of thought, Jack and Ennis did not ever have the opportunity to 'nest' or to really 'blend' their lives together. The real irony is that while they tried to keep their married lives separate from their affair (I'm using that term loosely here) , in the end it just could not be done - everything about their lives impinged on the other's.

So was their relationship only all about sex? No, certainly not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that ultimately though, their relationship could not be sustained at the "honeymoon level", yet it could neither grow in more integrated directions.

Nothing I can really add, just to say, astute observation.

And I like the way you put it: "They were in a chronic honeymoon phase."  :D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Cameron

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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2007, 07:20:57 pm »
I have been wondering about it since i read the last few messages and Jeff's question .  And I started wondering, and I know that some of you will strongly disagree with me, wasn't the whole relationship much more about sex for Jack then for Ennis?  I do agree with  the original question here, is that why Jack went straight to Mexico after the post divorce meeting.  What I still cannot get about that scene is why couldn't Jack have just waited around until Ennis brought the girls back home to Alma?  I mean to me it just seemed like Ennis was explaining that he had the girls that weekend so he couldn't go off with Jack at that moment. I don't really understand what he expecting,  Ennis to just leave the girls at his shack and run off with Jack?  The fact that he had this reaction and then goes to Mexico makes me think it was much more so about the sex for Jack than for Ennis.

I think for Ennis it was about everything, after all he was not even capable of having any kind of meaningful or successful life without Jack, but Jack was.

Also the line that gets me about this whole subject is " You have no idea how bad it gets, I'm not like you, I can't get by on a couple of high altitude f**ks a couple of times  a year."  So is that all Jack was thinking of, he wanted more high altitude meetings a year to have sex?

And I think the ironic thing to this line was Ennis did know how bad it gets, it was much much worse for him, and not just about the sex

(yes, I admit I do see it all from Ennis's side)



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2007, 07:31:32 pm »
I have been wondering about it since i read the last few messages and Jeff's question .  And I started wondering, and I know that some of you will strongly disagree with me, wasn't the whole relationship much more about sex for Jack then for Ennis?  I do agree with  the original question here, is that why Jack went straight to Mexico after the post divorce meeting.  What I still cannot get about that scene is why couldn't Jack have just waited around until Ennis brought the girls back home to Alma?

Exactly! That's a very good question, and you aren't the first to ask it, and I think it's just not answered in the film. Or, why couldn't he go visit his folks up in Lightning Flat for a week and come back the next weekend, when, presumably, Ennis didn't have the girls? We just don't know.  ???

Quote
I mean to me it just seemed like Ennis was explaining that he had the girls that weekend so he couldn't go off with Jack at that moment. I don't really understand what he expecting,  Ennis to just leave the girls at his shack and run off with Jack?  The fact that he had this reaction and then goes to Mexico makes me think it was much more so about the sex for Jack than for Ennis.

I think for Ennis it was about everything, after all he was not even capable of having any kind of meaningful or successful life without Jack, but Jack was.

Also the line that gets me about this whole subject is " You have no idea how bad it gets, I'm not like you, I can't get by on a couple of high altitude f**ks a couple of times  a year."  So is that all Jack was thinking of, he wanted more high altitude meetings a year to have sex?

Well, I think the fact that Jack kept the shirts all those years indicates that it is more than just about sex for him, but I also think he has a greater need for the sex than Ennis does.

Quote
And I think the ironic thing to this line was Ennis did know how bad it gets, it was much much worse for him, and not just about the sex

(yes, I admit I do see it all from Ennis's side)

Nothing wrong with that. I identify more with Ennis, myself.  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Cameron

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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2007, 08:20:05 pm »

Well, I think the fact that Jack kept the shirts all those years indicates that it is more than just about sex for him, but I also think he has a greater need for the sex than Ennis does.


Yes, it is true about the shirts.  I don't think that it is just about the sex for Jack,  but also the shirts were from the first summer, when Jack was very young and totally infatuated with Ennis.  I really do thing that over all the years Jack was able to develop something of a life without Ennis, and it did somehow become more about the sex to him.  In fact I tend to think that he even was able to maintain an affectionate and friendly partnership with Lureen, something Ennis could not do with either Alma or Cassie, and so over the years the sex was more and more important because he didn't need Ennis as much emotionally.

For Ennis, I really think Jack was everything.  However until I focused on TS 1 the past few days I didn't really think that the sex was all that important for him, but then I realized that actually it was very very important.

But to me Ennis is so incredibly tragic because he really was 'nowwhere and nothing' because he really was the one who truly needed Jack, for everything, emotionally and sexually, and he never ever had any kind of life because of Jack.

OK now that I am started on this, I think that the underlying story and the tragedy of everything is that Jack was never ever able to see and understand Ennis's feelings and needs and desperation for him, for Jack it was just what he wanted and needed.

To me Ennis's was screaming out the truth to Jack, at least in ways that he could, but Jack didn't get it.

I don't think that it was that Ennis never could commit,  I think that Jack never truly understood.

Sorry all Jack fans, its just what I believe, and yes I think it is mostly about the sex for him.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 08:23:30 pm by marlb42 »



Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2007, 08:25:51 pm »
What I still cannot get about that scene is why couldn't Jack have just waited around until Ennis brought the girls back home to Alma?

Exactly! That's a very good question, and you aren't the first to ask it, and I think it's just not answered in the film. Or, why couldn't he go visit his folks up in Lightning Flat for a week and come back the next weekend, when, presumably, Ennis didn't have the girls? We just don't know.  ???

The girls are a legitimate reason for Ennis to turn Jack down at that moment. But even without them, Ennis would have turned down what Jack had in mind -- i.e., living together. Jack interpreted the postcard about the divorce to mean that, with Alma out of the way, Ennis was ready for a little cow-and-calf operation. That's as much a reason he was all happy driving to see Ennis as he was about anticipating sex.

During their interaction outside the truck, Jack realized that he'd made a mistake -- Ennis was never going to want to live with him. Maybe one reason is that Ennis himself doesn't suggest that Jack wait around and come back later. But the bigger reason is the way Ennis watches the white pickup truck go past. If Ennis can't even feel safe talking to Jack in the driveway, how is he ever going to agree to live in the same house? And Jack, following Ennis' gaze and seeing his expression, gets the picture.

When he decides to redline it to Mexico, he's disappointed and embittered. He has a "Well, I'll show him!" kind of attitude. But you can tell by the look on his face as he starts down Prostitute Street that he's got mixed feelings, at best, about resorting to that. Not exactly the look he had when singing "King of the Road," hunh? That's another difference, IMO, between love and sex.

Oh, marlb42, your post came in while I was writing this. I'll post this first, then see if I have a response to your new post.

Offline Cameron

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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2007, 08:39:09 pm »
During their interaction outside the truck, Jack realized that he'd made a mistake -- Ennis was never going to want to live with him. Maybe one reason is that Ennis himself doesn't suggest that Jack wait around and come back later. But the bigger reason is the way Ennis watches the white pickup truck go past. If Ennis can't even feel safe talking to Jack in the driveway, how is he ever going to agree to live in the same house? And Jack, following Ennis' gaze and seeing his expression, gets the picture.

When he decides to redline it to Mexico, he's disappointed and embittered. He has a "Well, I'll show him!" kind of attitude. But you can tell by the look on his face as he starts down Prostitute Street that he's got mixed feelings, at best, about resorting to that. Not exactly the look he had when singing "King of the Road," hunh? That's another difference, IMO, between love and sex.

Hi Katherine/latjorene,

I answer yours, mine went in a different direction.  I actually do agree with you totally, I do, but I still do see it differently.  I mean what I cannot understand, if Jack thought the divorce postcard was to telll Jack that they can finally really be together, well I don't really understand why Jack would really think this.  I understand that this is what he wanted the postcard about the divorce to mean, but if he really did understand Ennis he would have known that it couldn't mean that.

I guess that goes along with my view that Jack didn't really understand Ennis, after all Ennis was upset at the divorce, and maybe the postcard was just Ennis trying to tell Jack that he needed him.

Yes, I do agree that going off to Mexico was not without a lot of misgivings, and obviously it was not JUST about the sex with Ennis, but I still think that Jack never understood the realy meanings of what Ennis was always trying to tell him, even without direct words.



Offline Brown Eyes

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« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2007, 08:41:58 pm »
Jeff, I think you point about your change in perception of this scene is very interesting.  And, it is an interesting exercise to try to see it with fresh eyes.  But, I also think this observation relates to what many of us have been saying for a long time, which is that this movie takes on quite a lot of meaning (different meaning, more subtle meaning, questions become more exposed, etc.) the more it's watched and the more one ponders the movie.  I know people who upon first viewing of the film didn't even think to question how Jack died.  It didn't even cross their minds to question what we're shown on screen (as a representation of Ennis's fears and imagination).  It took them either a second or third viewing or it took a Brokie (  :D ) to point out the question that should arise over that topic.


marlb42, to comment on just one of your (very good!) observations, I think sex very well may have been more important to Jack.  I think Jack acknowledges this in the late argument by the lake when he yells "I'm not you, I can't make it... [etc., etc., etc.].  I think the physical part of their relationship is (of course) important to them both, but maybe in a different way to each of them. 


When he decides to redline it to Mexico, he's disappointed and embittered. He has a "Well, I'll show him!" kind of attitude. But you can tell by the look on his face as he starts down Prostitute Street that he's got mixed feelings, at best, about resorting to that. Not exactly the look he had when singing "King of the Road," hunh? That's another difference, IMO, between love and sex.

Yup, I totally agree that Jack left right away after his encounter with Ennis and headed to Mexico (what I perceive to be quite a spontaneous decision) out of anger and frustration.  I don't think Jack wanted to be around Ennis while he was as upset as he was either.  He probably wouldn't want Ennis to see him cry or to expose how raw his nerves were at that juncture to Ennis.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2007, 10:45:21 pm »
Yes, it is true about the shirts.  I don't think that it is just about the sex for Jack,  but also the shirts were from the first summer, when Jack was very young and totally infatuated with Ennis.

This reminds me of something else that came out of that last viewing for me. Figuratively, it was like I saw this line connecting Jack's angry explosion, "All we got is Brokeback Mountain, everything built on that!" with Lureen's telling Ennis, "Well, he said (Brokeback Mountain) was his favorite place," to the shirts in the closet. And then I thought, Each in their own way, neither Jack nor Ennis ever was able to move on from Brokeback Mountain.  :-\  :(
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2007, 11:05:08 pm »
Each in their own way, neither Jack nor Ennis ever was able to move on from Brokeback Mountain.  :-\  :(

I completely agree with this.  Right on Jeff!

I mean, Jack requested that his ashes be scattered on Brokeback and Ennis was on quite a mission there towards the end of the film to try his hardest to bring Jack's ashes back to Brokeback (obviously unsuccessfully).  So even after Jack's dead they're both still desperate to get back to Brokeback and neither is successful.

 :'(
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Offline nakymaton

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« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2007, 11:44:01 pm »
I mean, Jack requested that his ashes be scattered on Brokeback and Ennis was on quite a mission there towards the end of the film to try his hardest to bring Jack's ashes back to Brokeback (obviously unsuccessfully).  So even after Jack's dead they're both still desperate to get back to Brokeback and neither is successful.

And Ennis's shrine includes the shirts (from the mountain) and a postcard showing a picture of the mountain. Both of them idealized that summer.

Here are a couple of thoughts about Jack wanting sex:

1) Is it possible that Jack's focus on sex was, I don't know, a different sort of reaction to being raised homophobic than Ennis's was? Could Jack accept the need for sex and focus on that, while trying to deny the need for love?

2) A Jack who is focused on sex is more like story-Jack than we usually give movie-Jack credit for being. (Story-Jack, after all, lies from the motel scene on about the fact that he's been "riding more than bulls." In the story, it's easy to believe that Jack is just one rather horny wanna-be bullrider, at least until we learn about Jack's memory of the dozy embrace, and then about the drive for nothing, and then about the shirts.)

3)
When he decides to redline it to Mexico, he's disappointed and embittered. He has a "Well, I'll show him!" kind of attitude. But you can tell by the look on his face as he starts down Prostitute Street that he's got mixed feelings, at best, about resorting to that. Not exactly the look he had when singing "King of the Road," hunh? That's another difference, IMO, between love and sex.

Jack also appears to have mixed feelings when Randall propositions him. Maybe by that time it has come to simply be about sex, but something has gone out of Jack by that point in his life. If the mountain was just about sex, then Jack is a lot less excited about sex in his late 30's than he was at 19. (Umm, I guess I've heard that men settle down a bit after their late teens, so maybe this is true. ;D )

I think both of the men are very mixed up, in their own ways. On the surface, Jack appears to be less conflicted, but I don't know. It may be that he's just masking things better than Ennis can.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2007, 10:02:53 am »
(Umm, I guess I've heard that men settle down a bit after their late teens, so maybe this is true. ;D )

It happens. ...

But let's not overlook the possibility that Jack, possibly in both film and story, is committing the error made by countless men and women, gay and straight: That quest for sex is really masking the quest for love.

Remember, in the story, Annie tells us how much the memory of the dozy embrace means to Jack--and that he craves it but doesn't understand it (the stress here being on the lack of understanding)? I think possibly that means Jack is actually craving love--Ennis's love, I guess--but doesn't really understand his own need for it.
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Offline nakymaton

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« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2007, 01:47:52 pm »
But let's not overlook the possibility that Jack, possibly in both film and story, is committing the error made by countless men and women, gay and straight: That quest for sex is really masking the quest for love.

Remember, in the story, Annie tells us how much the memory of the dozy embrace means to Jack--and that he craves it but doesn't understand it (the stress here being on the lack of understanding)? I think possibly that means Jack is actually craving love--Ennis's love, I guess--but doesn't really understand his own need for it.

Yes... yes. And maybe it's just not understanding it, rather than being afraid of it.

In your re-watching, did it feel like the dozy embrace was from Jack's POV in the movie? Or did it seem like it was simply a memory for everyone of what had been, a compare-and-contrast kind of moment so that the "deceased" postcard would hurt even more than it does?
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2007, 02:38:36 pm »
In your re-watching, did it feel like the dozy embrace was from Jack's POV in the movie? Or did it seem like it was simply a memory for everyone of what had been, a compare-and-contrast kind of moment so that the "deceased" postcard would hurt even more than it does?

Interesting question. I've never thought about the scene in that way before, and now I'm trying to remember exactly what the shots are immediately right before and immediately right after the dozy-embrace flashback; e.g., after the flashback, what do we see first, Jack's face or Ennis's pickup driving away?

Regardless, I've always seen the flashback as Jack's memory--but maybe that's because of my familiarity with Annie Proulx's text.

(Edit: Just to note that I'm leaving work early this afternoon, goin' a visit my daddy for a few days, so I'll be out of computer touch from around 3:00 this afternoon EST until I return home Sunday evening. So if I drop out of the conversation, that's why. ~J.W.)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2007, 02:51:50 pm »
after the flashback, what do we see first, Jack's face or Ennis's pickup driving away?

Jack's face. It segues from young Jack watching Ennis ride away on his horse to old(er) Jack watching Ennis drive away in his truck. For this reason, I see it as being Jack's POV, too. As if he's thinking back on that other time (on all the other times) he watched Ennis go away. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.

Quote
(Edit: Just to note that I'm leaving work early this afternoon, goin' a visit my daddy for a few days, so I'll be out of computer touch from around 3:00 this afternoon EST until I return home Sunday evening. So if I drop out of the conversation, that's why. ~J.W.)

Gonna go help out with the ranch? Have fun!  :)



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2007, 03:00:34 pm »
Gonna go help out with the ranch? Have fun!  :)

Gonna lick it into shape!  ;D
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Offline southendmd

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« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2007, 04:13:55 pm »
Boy, this discussion has strayed from poor Uncle Harold!

I wanted to share a few thoughts on the sex/love thing.

I'm reminded of the trolls' complaints over at IMDb initially:  "this film is just about sex, that's all gay men want" etc. etc.

That's clearly just a simplistic and superficial interpretation of what we see.  I think sex is at the forefront because these guys don't have much language for love.  Remember, they have a "thing": "one-shot thing we got goin' on here" and "this thing grabs hold of us again...", Ennis says. 

The evidence for love is there, but more subtle.  Including Ennis collapsing in the alley: even he doesn't know what it means.  (Story Ennis says it took him a year to figure out he never should of let Jack out of his sight.)

Also, don't be so hard on Jack!  If he were really just looking for sex, why drive 1200 miles for it when you're right next to Mexico? 

I think the tragedy is that they don't understand each other.  It's not just Jack not understanding Ennis's internal homophobia.  "I got the girls...." is just another excuse, the passing white truck=paranoia, Jack says "I get it".  Ennis doesn't understand what the divorce postcard would have meant to Jack, who had clearly stated his intentions of wanting a life together.

IMO, Jack goes to Mexico not just out of anger or spite, but mostly out of sadness and loneliness.  His face in the alley does not say "horny", rather it says "despair".

Jack's dozy embrace:  as Jeff said, even he doesn't understand it.  Annie uses the word "sexless" to describe it.  (The scene in the film wasn't bookended from Jack's POV, only afterwards, but very effective pairing of Ennis's riding away and Jack's facial expression of pure love, to his hardened expression watching Ennis drive away in the truck.)

They don't understand each other, use sex as a metaphor, blame each other for how their lives turned out, and that's their tragedy.  Ennis embodies regret.

Paul

Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2007, 04:39:21 pm »
His face in the alley does not say "horny", rather it says "despair"

That's the perfect word for it, Paul!

Offline Cameron

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« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2007, 05:14:26 pm »

I think the tragedy is that they don't understand each other.  It's not just Jack not understanding Ennis's internal homophobia.  "I got the girls...." is just another excuse, the passing white truck=paranoia, Jack says "I get it".  Ennis doesn't understand what the divorce postcard would have meant to Jack, who had clearly stated his intentions of wanting a life together.

They don't understand each other, use sex as a metaphor, blame each other for how their lives turned out, and that's their tragedy.  Ennis embodies regret.



Wow Paul,

You said it all so incredibly well.

I totally completely agree, I think that the problem is that they never understood each other at all. 

In fact I think the whole film is also about all the characters Alma and Lureen, Alma Jr and of course Jack and Ennis just all going around in circles,  never being  able to understand each other and  also non were  really ever able to say what they really feel.

In fact I just relized that the only one who was able to speak the truth was Cassie.  Even Alma waited years and years to say what was on her mind.




Offline Lynne

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Re: Post-Divorce Scene
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2007, 04:08:46 pm »
Howdy, folks!  I split this topic because we are way off the track of talking about poor Uncle Harold.  This way newbies can better see what the subject is!

 :D
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2007, 10:13:00 pm »
(Yeah, I'm back.  ;D )

Also, don't be so hard on Jack!  If he were really just looking for sex, why drive 1200 miles for it when you're right next to Mexico?

Of course he's not just looking for sex with just anybody. What he wants is Ennis.

Quote
I think the tragedy is that they don't understand each other.  It's not just Jack not understanding Ennis's internal homophobia.  "I got the girls...." is just another excuse, the passing white truck=paranoia, Jack says "I get it".  Ennis doesn't understand what the divorce postcard would have meant to Jack, who had clearly stated his intentions of wanting a life together.

Yes, I agree, that is their tragedy.

Quote
IMO, Jack goes to Mexico not just out of anger or spite, but mostly out of sadness and loneliness.  His face in the alley does not say "horny", rather it says "despair".

Well, yes, but to that despair I'd add a strong dose of desperation, which isn't the same thing as despair, but maybe in Jack's case is the offspring of despair. In all my years "out," in way too many hours spent in venues where guys are just looking to get laid, I've seen the look on Jack's face, or one gosh-darn close to it, on guys who for whatever reason, just want--need--to get laid, and they're so far gone in the want/need for it that they don't care by whom. And I've always felt that was really very sad.  :(

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Offline BBM-Cat

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« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2007, 10:50:58 pm »
(Yeah, I'm back.  ;D )

Of course he's not just looking for sex with just anybody. What he wants is Ennis.

Absolutely well said - while it may have seemed like he was only after sex - after awhile, for reasons of self-preservation, Jack had to protect his heart. Although he never fully learned to deal with the rejections from Ennis about not starting the 'sweet life' together, he learned to make the best of their situation. While he always wanted and hoped for more with Ennis, he did in fact 'settle' - until maybe at the very end when he began asserting his feelings and frustrations with their situation. 
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?